IMAGES: Dublin's quays after Luas Cross City and College Green Plaza

monument · 04-08-2016 08:38PM #1

Recently I received draft road layout drawings for the Liffey Cycle Route from Dublin City Council under Freedom of Information -- but the drawings go beyond the cycle route and show the fullest view so-far of a glimpse of Dublin's quays after Luas Cross City and College Green Plaza, so I thought I'd share here...

The near 24MB PDF with the draft drawings can be downloaded here on Google Drive: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-qTnMoHhp0lbEhGM01FMXhQRGx0aTVEWE4yT0xKMWxiNFNB (link should be open to all, but let me know if it does not work!)

I've cropped images from the PDF here http://irishcycle.com/2016/08/04/liffey-cycle-route-a-detailed-look-at-the-core-city-centre-section/ -- feel free to post images here or capture new images direct from the PDF and post here.

The drawings key can be viewed here.

Here's some of the key bits:

monument · 04-08-2016 08:43PM

And here's a few more:

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 05-08-2016 12:31AM

Looks good for the cyclists.

For other vehicles ?

Hello traffic !

monument · 05-08-2016 01:56AM

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Looks good for the cyclists.

For other vehicles ?

Hello traffic !

In the central sections in the above images, I'm not sure where you see notable space transferred to cycling that privite motorists could use -- the Luas and bus priority measures means far, far heavier privite traffic restrictions that linked directly to the cycle route.

The new bus lanes on the quays, on Capel Street bridge, O'Connell Bridge, and on the likes of Parliament Street and Tara Street include three or four time the transfer of space and restrictions.

This is the reality of opening Luas Cross City and wanting to keep many more people on buses moving too.

Bus, pedestrian, bicycle and Luas traffic will be the vast bulk traffic in the area, and there's maybe too much space given over to privite car access. If anything, the amount of space taken up on the north quays east of Jervis Street for private traffic going to mainly just one car park off O'Connell Street is bonkers.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 05-08-2016 08:20AM

There is a section i think was very well done in front of the 4 courts where they took away parking along side the river for the double cycle lane either direction.

cgcsb · 05-08-2016 10:45AM

Pedestrians on the quays are kinda getting screwed there. Currently the quays are a poor pedestrian environment and it looks like that'll continue so that we can keep arnotts car park.

a few observations:
The bus lane changing sides on Bechelor's walk is going to be a real hoot.

On Grattan Bridge I think the drawing is incorrect, they have a general traffic right turning lane in the centre and a bus right turning lane on the west side. Clearly this should be the other way around.

The right turning box for cyclists on the east side of O'Connell bridge is really far from the actual junction, therefore useless.

cgcsb · 05-08-2016 12:09PM

Also regardin O'Connell Bridge, I wonder what is the point in making the western footpath, i.e. the quieter one, much wider than the eastern side.

StreetLight · 05-08-2016 12:31PM

cgcsb wrote: »

On Grattan Bridge I think the drawing is incorrect, they have a general traffic right turning lane in the centre and a bus right turning lane on the west side. Clearly this should be the other way around.

Is this not to facilitate buses turning right from Parliament Street onto the North Quays?

hmmm · 05-08-2016 12:50PM

monument wrote: »

This is hilarious. No really, I nearly burst out laughing looking at this. The only way I see this working is with some sort of bus priority traffic light system, and even then I expect hire cars, foreigners and country-folk to end up everywhere.

magicbastarder · 05-08-2016 12:53PM

also, what's the little 'hard shoulder' on the cycle lane northbound on o'connell bridge?

Spanish Eyes · 05-08-2016 12:54PM

hmmm wrote: »

This is hilarious. No really, I nearly burst out laughing looking at this.

Am trying to decipher the pics here! Am I right in thinking cars have to cross a box junction from the rhs to lhs in order to be able to turn left for the Arnott's car park?

If I'm right, I'm with you. It's mad Ted.

hmmm · 05-08-2016 01:02PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Am trying to decipher the pics here! Am I right in thinking cars have to cross a box junction from the rhs to lhs in order to be able to turn left for the Arnott's car park?

I think you're right, and if it's hard to figure out from a birdseye view it's going to be interesting when you're at ground level experiencing it for the first time. What type of road sign do you even use to display this?

I can see why they did it, and I'm sure they've tried everything they could think of - but it does look mad Ted.

Spanish Eyes · 05-08-2016 01:05PM

hmmm wrote: »

I think you're right, and if it's hard to figure out from a birdseye view it's going to be interesting when you're at ground level experiencing it for the first time. What type of road sign do you even use to display this?

I can see why they did it, and I'm sure they've tried everything they could think of - but it does look mad Ted.

Also, which mode will get priority to progress forward? Will there be a separate traffic light for cars and buses?

Maybe I'm missing something fundamental about the traffic flow, but can you just see the chaos if it's a free for all at that point!

But I'm sure they have figured that one out. :rolleyes:

loyatemu · 05-08-2016 01:13PM

monument wrote: »

And here's a few more:

good to see they're continuing the cycle lane onto Aston Quay - currently cycling up the nth quays from the east you reach Rosie Hackett Bridge and if you want to continue to OCS you have to left, right and right again which is a PITA.

Vic_08 · 05-08-2016 01:20PM

Several locations where 1 Bus lane + 1 Traffic lane turns into 2 Traffic lanes or 1 Bus + 2 Traffic then back again to 1 Bus + 1 Traffic will all cause jams for buses.

Outside Heuston where bus lane ends to cross Liffey, especially now as another set of lights are going in on north side of Frank Sheerin Bridge. Cars will be barging in to left at (or before) end of bus lane and jam up buses.

Approaching Ellis St, bus lane has been squeezed to give an extra traffic lane with only 1 Bus + 1 traffic the other side of junction. Will encourage more bus lane abuse as cars in left lane have nowhere to go but bus lane or jam up to merge right.

Again 1 Bus + 1 Traffic on Arran Quay opening out to 1 Bus + 2 Traffic on Inns Quay and immediately past Chancery Place junction 2 general lanes, car + bus both filtered into same lane. Followed by left general lane turning into bus lane, more jams to hold up buses.

Also why when there is the dedicated cycle route is there still shared space bus/cycle lane markings Heuston through Arran Quay. These "cycle lanes" are a joke anyway and should be removed, really no need with the dedicated cycle route parallel.

Spanish Eyes · 05-08-2016 01:23PM

Can't understand why Liffey Street traffic direction wasn't reversed, along with Abbey Street to facilitate the car park.

I actually contacted Ciaran Cuffe about this and here is his reply....

I am told that reversing flows on Liffey Street was looked at but that there were issues with it.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I share your concerns about the Bachelor's Walk free-for-all!

All the best,

Ciarán

Councillor Ciarán Cuffe
Green Party : Comhaontas Glas North Inner City Ward

www.CiaranCuffe.ie

AlekSmart · 05-08-2016 01:37PM

monument wrote: »

In the central sections in the above images, I'm not sure where you see notable space transferred to cycling that privite motorists could use -- the Luas and bus priority measures means far, far heavier privite traffic restrictions that linked directly to the cycle route.

The new bus lanes on the quays, on Capel Street bridge, O'Connell Bridge, and on the likes of Parliament Street and Tara Street include three or four time the transfer of space and restrictions.

This is the reality of opening Luas Cross City and wanting to keep many more people on buses moving too.

Bus, pedestrian, bicycle and Luas traffic will be the vast bulk traffic in the area, and there's maybe too much space given over to privite car access. If anything, the amount of space taken up on the north quays east of Jervis reet for private traffic going to mainly just one car park off O'Connell Street is bonkers.

There's no "mainly" about it,whilst the drawings are of great interest and very laudable in many ways,there remains,as yet,not so much as a nod towards the essential problem,and it is a PROBLEM,of what to do about/with the City Centre Multi Story Car Parks (or rather,their representative body).

http://www.parkingireland.ie/car-parking/frequently-asked-questions/

Virtually ALL of Dublin City Council's various strategies and plans for Traffic Management in and around An Lár eventually hits the Multi-Storey access rock,and until that rock is blasted,no comprehensive functional plan is possible.

Drury St
Setanta Centre
Fleet Street
Schoolhouse Lane
Princes Street
Irish Life Centre
ILAC Centre
Clerys
Parnell Centre
Jervis Centre

With some 10,000 Multi Storey spaces in Dublin,a significant number of which is in the City Centre,the simple effect of the attracted volume of traffic negates much,if not all of DCC's fine planning efforts (DCC are fully aware of this)

http://www.parkingconsultantsltd.com/dit_1.htm

Dublin City has over 65,000 parking spaces of which 10,000 are in public multi-storey car parks.

Unless and until some incarnation of a functional City Adminstration firmly grasps this nettle,Dublin will continue to flail around with occasional spurts of pointless activity.

CPO'ing at least two MSCP's,one Northside one Southside and converting these to Public Transport Hubs,including Dublin Airport "Kesh" Style Taxi Staging would be a welcome start.

On Street Taxi Rank capacities could be Electronically Monitored,with severe immediate penalties for those of that fraternity who "Stick her in at the tail end" and then impede the progress of every other road user as a direct result.

Bus & Coach stops require distinctly seperate locations to recognise the differing requirements in relation to stance time and customer luggage requirements....Insisting,for example, that the Aircoach Airport/Cork Express stop in Westmoreland st co-exists safely with the pre-existent and busy City Service does'nt exactly do a lot for the proffessional credibility of Dublin City Council's Proffessional branch.

But,as with most things Irish,we will probably keep them blinkers firmly on,and insist that it'll be grand....just grand Ted....:D

foggy_lad · 05-08-2016 01:59PM

With this image and going purely by the indicated road markings it does appear there will be no dedicated bus access for buses to O'Connell St or Westmoreland St from O'Connell Bridge?

Alkers · 05-08-2016 02:10PM

What stage of the design are they at? The drawings seem to indicate only that the above is the emerging preferred route. If so there is still preliminary design and detailed design to follow so a lot of the very specific criticism is rather premature?

magicbastarder · 05-08-2016 02:50PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Can't understand why Liffey Street traffic direction wasn't reversed, along with Abbey Street to facilitate the car park.

you mean so cars would turn north onto liffey street, east onto abbey street, and north onto o'connell street, to get to princes street?

loyatemu · 05-08-2016 03:08PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

you mean so cars would turn north onto liffey street, east onto abbey street, and north onto o'connell street, to get to princes street?

the last turn would conflict with the Luas.

magicbastarder · 05-08-2016 03:32PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Also, which mode will get priority to progress forward? Will there be a separate traffic light for cars and buses?

i'd guess - given that the bus lane seems to end and begin again- that cars would have priority, as the car lane seems continuous. but it does look like a mess. i can't think of any other situation where two parallel lanes swap over like that.

Spanish Eyes · 05-08-2016 06:16PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

you mean so cars would turn north onto liffey street, east onto abbey street, and north onto o'connell street, to get to princes street?

Yes. And I know cars will conflict with Luas at Abbey/O'Connell Street, but on the draft plans, cars will conflict with buses (lots of them!) at the box junction mentioned above also.

Bachelor's Walk is a total disaster now, so anything that would help on that stretch would be a godsend.

Looks like there will be no bus stops on Bachelor's Walk too. Is that right?

Anyway, it was just a thought. Obviously not practical.

monument · 05-08-2016 07:15PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Can't understand why Liffey Street traffic direction wasn't reversed, along with Abbey Street to facilitate the car park.

I actually contacted Ciaran Cuffe about this and here is his reply....

I am told that reversing flows on Liffey Street was looked at but that there were issues with it.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I share your concerns about the Bachelor's Walk free-for-all!

All the best,

Ciarán

Councillor Ciarán Cuffe
Green Party : Comhaontas Glas North Inner City Ward

www.CiaranCuffe.ie

There's issues with everything, but the question is: do the issues amount to something which is worse than the alternative?

Councillors are all too willing to give into council officials.

foggy_lad wrote: »

With this image and going purely by the indicated road markings it does appear there will be no dedicated bus access for buses to O'Connell St or Westmoreland St from O'Connell Bridge?

The tram lane could be a tram/bus lane, I don't know. The lanes on O'Connel Street are not finalised in the drawings -- I was recently told the cycle lanes on O'Connell Street would remain as is. But they aren't shown in the drawing.

But you have to look at it in perspective: there's currently no dedicated access and when these plans are progressed there will be massively less traffic in the area.

Spanish Eyes · 05-08-2016 07:25PM

monument wrote: »

There's issues with everything, but the question is: do the issues amount to something which is worse than the alternative?

Councillors are all too willing to give into council officials.

TBH I didn't follow it up with Cllr Cuffe. Waste of time, as you say.

Not saying my suggestion should have been adopted or anything! But an explanation regarding the "issues" would have been helpful.

Commercial sensitivity I reckon with the car park issue, together with the fact that Car parks generate income for DCC through rates, I know that, but so do all other businesses in the City. Time for someone to call time on all this BS.

prinzeugen · 05-08-2016 07:40PM

monument wrote: »

.

The tram lane could be a tram/bus lane, I don't know. The lanes on O'Connel Street are not finalised in the drawings -- I was recently told the cycle lanes on O'Connell Street would remain as is. But they aren't shown in the drawing.
.

It can't be a tram/bus lane. As pointed out elsewhere, the new trams will be longer than O'Connell bridge so are going to need a clear run from Westmoreland St to O'Connell St without stopping.

One bus in the way and the whole lot will become gridlocked.

ED E · 05-08-2016 07:44PM

monument wrote: »

The tram lane could be a tram/bus lane, I don't know. The lanes on O'Connel Street are not finalised in the drawings -- I was recently told the cycle lanes on O'Connell Street would remain as is.

Unless all the bus stops are being removed they may as well drop the lane, totally unusable.

monument · 05-08-2016 08:06PM

Sorry for the bulk catch up...

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Am trying to decipher the pics here! Am I right in thinking cars have to cross a box junction from the rhs to lhs in order to be able to turn left for the Arnott's car park?

If I'm right, I'm with you. It's mad Ted.

Yes, you're dead right. And it's also madness having so much space on the quays effectively for access to one car park.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Looks like there will be no bus stops on Bachelor's Walk too. Is that right?...

No, there will be extra bus stop spaces on Bachelor's Walk. See this image: http://i1.wp.com/irishcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Bachelor-s-Walk.jpg

But the general traffic lane needs to be removed and the space given over to a mix of (1) wider footpaths along where the extra and likely busier bus stops will be and (2) the cycle path. I think the traffic lane is 3m, so say 2m to the footpath and 1m to the cycle path... Or maybe some space for trees or some greenery between the cycle path and the buses.

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'd guess - given that the bus lane seems to end and begin again- that cars would have priority, as the car lane seems continuous. but it does look like a mess. i can't think of any other situation where two parallel lanes swap over like that.

Yes, this is exactly why I said it would be a bad idea to divert cars off the quays on another section of the Liffey Cycle Route -- it would be worse for buses than diverting buses.

It might work in the case above because there should be very low traffic flow compared to now.

magicbastarder wrote: »

you mean so cars would turn north onto liffey street, east onto abbey street, and north onto o'connell street, to get to princes street?

There's an argument for reversing the flow of the private car park -- offering to pay for the costs of such and CPO is there if needed as a nudge.

So, cars would enter the car park via Middle Abbey Street.

Simona1986 wrote: »

What stage of the design are they at? The drawings seem to indicate only that the above is the emerging preferred route. If so there is still preliminary design and detailed design to follow so a lot of the very specific criticism is rather premature?

I'd say constructive rather than premature. It's rare enough that things are changed much after public consultation and when it does it's usually only when Cllrs push hard.

It's this stage or before now -- not at consultation -- that the details are often changed to suit stakeholders like business groups etc.

Vic_08 wrote: »

Several locations where 1 Bus lane + 1 Traffic lane turns into 2 Traffic lanes or 1 Bus + 2 Traffic then back again to 1 Bus + 1 Traffic will all cause jams for buses...

Again 1 Bus + 1 Traffic on Arran Quay opening out to 1 Bus + 2 Traffic on Inns Quay and immediately past Chancery Place junction 2 general lanes, car + bus both filtered into same lane. Followed by left general lane turning into bus lane, more jams to hold up buses.

Yes, the merge after/at the junction east of the Four Courts looks to be rubbish in terms of bus priority... I'm glad that bus-focused people see that as a problem too.

I think the the second car lane on Inns Quay could be put to better use (ie for cycling and walking space along the quayside, while keeping the current trees in place!). As it is it seems like it would be of little benefit to car users expect being able to drive a little faster between two junctions before getting slowed right down again.

Vic_08 wrote: »

Also why when there is the dedicated cycle route is there still shared space bus/cycle lane markings Heuston through Arran Quay. These "cycle lanes" are a joke anyway and should be removed, really no need with the dedicated cycle route parallel.

Because a very large percent of people cycling won't use the detour as it is currently designed. The backstreet detour for cycling has a larger proportional affect on cycling than detouring any other mode.

Anyway, the bit between Queen Street and Church Street isn't that bad compared to many cycle lanes in the city. It's narrow but serves a function.

loyatemu wrote: »

good to see they're continuing the cycle lane onto Aston Quay - currently cycling up the nth quays from the east you reach Rosie Hackett Bridge and if you want to continue to OCS you have to left, right and right again which is a PITA.

Yes! Continuity is the key thing about the Liffey Cycle Route -- a cycle path from the Point Village to the Phoenix Park.

Although the Smithfield backstreet detour does harm their concept.

StreetLight wrote: »

Is this not to facilitate buses turning right from Parliament Street onto the North Quays?

It's partly down to where the tram tracks are and trying to keep a turning lane for buses.

monument · 05-08-2016 08:11PM

prinzeugen wrote: »

It can't be a tram/bus lane. As pointed out elsewhere, the new trams will be longer than O'Connell bridge so are going to need a clear run from Westmoreland St to O'Connell St without stopping.

One bus in the way and the whole lot will become gridlocked.

That's what I remembered from the Luas railway order of the lane on O'Connell Street, but I could be wrong. But, on the other hand, if buses are not allowed on that team tracks lane, the buses will be held up by cars turning into Princes Street.

ED E wrote: »

Unless all the bus stops are being removed they may as well drop the lane, totally unusable.

The Luas BXD railway order includes removing the bus stops between the O'Connell Bridge junction and the Spire, where the tram tracks go into the central medium.

Spanish Eyes · 05-08-2016 09:13PM

@monument.

Thanks for all the comprehensive information.

I'm still a bit puzzled as to where the bus stops will be on Bachelor's walk, given the zig zag that cars have to do for the left turn at O'C Bridge. But no doubt I'm just missing some important feature!

This is the pic I'm thinking of re lack of bus stops. Sorry cannot see the bus stops, only car lanes next to the kerb!! Help.

Maybe the extra stops are further back. If so, sorry for my inattention.

magicbastarder · 05-08-2016 09:15PM

it'd be interesting to find out what proportion of private cars which use lower o'connell street northbound (e.g. which pass easons) during business hours, are headed for arnotts car park. and what proportion of those use it for shopping (i have not used it in years, but i did use it regularly when working for a company which had a contract with an post).

IMAGES: Dublin's quays after Luas Cross City and College Green Plaza

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