Louise O Neill

El Caffo · 03-08-2016 12:37PM

Lux23 wrote: »

So, you don't think women should take any particular care when coming home from the pub at night? Should we just get into a car with a stranger?

I think you're missing my point. Some men rape women, a small percentage certainly, but because they don't go around with a sign saying "I rape women", by default a woman has to be wary about all men. It always has to be in the back of your head. That is sad, maybe even warped but you can't expect women to trust you automatically?

The same way some women trap men with pregnancies? The same way some women falsely accuse of rape? The same way some women marry for money?

All subjects which wouldn't be open for discussion on this forum as it doesn't fit the narrative.

Duggy747 · 03-08-2016 12:40PM

Aubree Handsome Gerbil wrote: »

I still don't know to laughed or be concerned i.e. either she's a bullsh*t artist of the highest order or she is quite mentally fragile and in need of help.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/louise-o39neill-when-youre-apologising-for-apologising-then-you-know-you-have-a-serious-problem-413225.html

Her therapist isn't doing it for her if after years of sessions she's going around detached from her own responsibilities thinking her issues are magnified because of men and their "privilege".

That email analogy is terrible, has she actually ever worked in an office environment or is she being this intentionally fragile?

How do these people function in life.........well, I suppose they do get paid to write about this view of the world.

kunst nugget · 03-08-2016 12:40PM

pumpkin4life wrote: »

I think the increase in demand for therapy/mental health/Bressie and Jeffrey partly comes from the coddling/spoiling/childification of Generation Snowflake; broken down by the inevitable crap that hits you as one gets older. Simply put, a lack of coping skills/humility that people over the age of 30 would have built up normally built up as life went on. And I say this as someone as someone well under 30.

Expect a massive rise in mental health issues, both big and small in the coming years.

I think the increase in demand is actually related to younger people less willing to self medicate their problems with booze and drugs and ruining themselves in the process. Having known older people who drank themselves to death I say fair play to the younger generation. I've known plenty of people that aren't from Generation Snowflake who have benefitted enormously from therapy.

pumpkin4life · 03-08-2016 12:50PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

I think the increase in demand is actually related to younger people less willing to self medicate their problems with booze and drugs and ruining themselves in the process. Having known older people who drank themselves to death I say fair play to the younger generation. I've known plenty of people that aren't from Generation Snowflake who have benefitted enormously from therapy.

Partly true, but I'm seeing some weird **** here as well.

Lads going to interviews with parents.

Lads crying in the toilets because the boss yelled at them.

Lads blowing the **** up because you do nothing more than disagree with them on something.

I don't see this kind of offness in older people tbh. I think it's one of the reasons.

Decent Skin · 03-08-2016 12:51PM

Lux23 wrote: »

So, you don't think women should take any particular care when coming home from the pub at night? Should we just get into a car with a stranger?

I think you're missing my point. Some men rape women, a small percentage certainly, but because they don't go around with a sign saying "I rape women", by default a woman has to be wary about all men. It always has to be in the back of your head. That is sad, maybe even warped but you can't expect women to trust you automatically?

Some women have one night stands to try to trap men via pregnancy, or get married just to divorce & get half the man's assets.

Should we men assume that they all do that ?

Lisha · 03-08-2016 12:56PM

I dunno this thread is making me feel very sad.

I thought believed in feminism, but now it seems that being a feminist means you must be a misandrist.
This is news to me.

I believe all people are equal and that it is the person's abilities (and their desire to be happy and successful) that matter not their gender.

I am a mother to a boy and a girl. While they are different people I try to treat them equally and not to limit any ambitions they have. I value both of their educations and I tell them both that the only thing stopping them being doctors (or anything else) is themselves.

I tell them both to respect others and to be kind to others and to themselves. They are young now but when they are teenagers, they will both hear the dangers of excessive alcohol and drug consumption. They will both be told that being too drunk can lead them to be in precarious situations. I will educate them both about sexual boundaries/manners and about making sure any situation they are in is consensual on both sides.

And they better use condoms or I will kill them. They will both be told not to be walking alone after dark. They will both be told to protect themselves .

For me being a feminist meant that my education meant I could achieve any career I chose. It meant motherhood was still possible along with my education and career. That I could walk in to any interview with my head held as high as any man.

I don't hate any man, nor do I want to. I do hate rapists and abusers and those who terrorise people.
I believe in people. It's s pity there are done crap ones in the world but I prefer to concentrate on the good and ignore the bad.

livedadream · 03-08-2016 12:56PM

Decent Skin wrote: »

Some women have one night stands to try to trap men via pregnancy, or get married just to divorce & get half the man's assets.
Should we men assume that they all do that ?

no but they should wear a feckin condom to prevent it happening... thats just common sense.

the same as i dont walk down a dark alley alone at night...

or get a pre nup for the divorce thing or ya know not marry an asshole...

Rakish Paddy · 03-08-2016 12:57PM

livedadream wrote: »

no but they should wear a feckin condom to prevent it happening... thats just common sense.

the same as i dont walk down a dark alley alone at night...

or get a pre nup for the divorce thing or ya know not marry an asshole...

VICTIM BLAMING!! VICTIM BLAMING!! LOUD NOISES!!! RABBLE RABBLE!!!

kunst nugget · 03-08-2016 12:58PM

pumpkin4life wrote: »

I don't see this kind of offness in older people tbh. I think it's one of the reasons.

Because older people tend to have matured and become more confident. And become too tired from previous experience in life to be bothered with having much drama. Older people were gimpy when they were younger as well. There's just no social media evidence.

orubiru · 03-08-2016 01:08PM

Lux23 wrote: »

I think you're missing my point. Some men rape women, a small percentage certainly, but because they don't go around with a sign saying "I rape women", by default a woman has to be wary about all men. It always has to be in the back of your head. That is sad, maybe even warped but you can't expect women to trust you automatically?

Hm.

What if we...

Lux23 wrote: »

I think you're missing my point. Some Muslims are terrorists, a small percentage certainly, but because they don't go around with a sign saying "I am a terrorist", by default a society has to be wary about all Muslims. It always has to be in the back of your head. That is sad, maybe even warped but you can't expect society to trust Muslims automatically?

Wow. Just wow.

Hm.

I wonder if... in another universe...

Lux23 wrote: »

I think you're missing my point. Some black people commit crimes, a small percentage certainly, but because they don't go around with a sign saying "I am a criminal", by default we need to be wary about all black people. It always has to be in the back of your head. That is sad, maybe even warped but you can't expect us to trust black people automatically?

Yikes.

I tell you what, I'll check my privilege if you check your prejudice.

Zxclnic · 03-08-2016 01:09PM

El Caffo wrote: »

The same way some women trap men with pregnancies? The same way some women falsely accuse of rape? The same way some women marry for money?

All subjects which wouldn't be open for discussion on this forum as it doesn't fit the narrative.

The same way some women trap men with pregnancies?
That's a very nebulous area, made even more so by your accusatory choice of words.
What do you mean by 'trap' exactly?

The same way some women falsely accuse of rape?

To falsely accuse someone of rape is horrendous and a despicable thing to do, on that we can agree.
But when you say ''the same way'' what do you mean, the same as what?

The same way some women marry for money?
Forgive me, but that's just funny!:)

Wigglepuppy · 03-08-2016 01:13PM

RayM wrote: »

As opposed to "abnormal"? I mean, how should a person refer to seeing a therapist? Should they perhaps have the decency to be embarrassed about it, cloak any references to their mental health in coy euphemisms instead? Maybe they should simply not mention it at all, lest someone should accuse them of being "mentally fragile".

"So my therapist said..." just makes her seem like she's trying to sound like an 80s baby boomer in Manhattan.

Of course there is nothing wrong with seeing a therapist (well, counsellor around these parts), it's a good thing to do, but being all Woody Allen movie about it looks pretentious.

Ditto the "white privilege" stuff she refers to herself as having, in relation to the black girl being white on the book cover (which she pretended not to notice). It's like a parody to the point of embarrassing.

livedadream · 03-08-2016 01:19PM

orubiru wrote: »

Hm.

I tell you what, I'll check my privilege if you check your prejudice.

+1 million to this.

Zxclnic · 03-08-2016 01:21PM

Lisha wrote: »

I dunno this thread is making me feel very sad.

I thought believed in feminism, but now it seems that being a feminist means you must be a misandrist.
This is news to me.

I believe all people are equal and that it is the person's abilities (and their desire to be happy and successful) that matter not their gender.

I am a mother to a boy and a girl. While they are different people I try to treat them equally and not to limit any ambitions they have. I value both of their educations and I tell them both that the only thing stopping them being doctors (or anything else) is themselves.

I tell them both to respect others and to be kind to others and to themselves. They are young now but when they are teenagers, they will both hear the dangers of excessive alcohol and drug consumption. They will both be told that being too drunk can lead them to be in precarious situations. I will educate them both about sexual boundaries/manners and about making sure any situation they are in is consensual on both sides.

And they better use condoms or I will kill them. They will both be told not to be walking alone after dark. They will both be told to protect themselves .

For me being a feminist meant that my education meant I could achieve any career I chose. It meant motherhood was still possible along with my education and career. That I could walk in to any interview with my head held as high as any man.

I don't hate any man, nor do I want to. I do hate rapists and abusers and those who terrorise people.
I believe in people. It's s pity there are done crap ones in the world but I prefer to concentrate on the good and ignore the bad.

Imho, the above is the best and most clear-sighted post on this thread by a country mile.
Thanks Lisha for your common sense.

LuckyRoche · 03-08-2016 01:23PM

livedadream wrote: »

or get a pre nup for the divorce thing or ya know not marry an asshole...

Pre nups have no legal standing in Ireland.

livedadream · 03-08-2016 01:25PM

LuckyRoche wrote: »

Pre nups have no legal standing in Ireland.

either do assholes but you chose to ignore that part and the start of my post so... here we are... :cool:

the same way as a woman who accidentally or purposefully get knocked up cant get an abortion or cant force a man to be a dad to the child.

thats life, sometimes its hard. wear a helmet.

orubiru · 03-08-2016 01:27PM

Duggy747 wrote: »

Her therapist isn't doing it for her if after years of sessions she's going around detached from her own responsibilities thinking her issues are magnified because of men and their "privilege".

What I can't figure out is how having enough money to able to afford a damn therapist is not a massive privilege in it's own right?

How much would that cost, a couple of thousand Euros per year?

I can't tie together the idea that one can avail of some considerable privileges while simultaneously deriding people who have other privileges.

I could imagine these kinds of people driving down the motorway in a shiny new Ferrari while giving out that those gits sitting on the bus are so privileged because they don't have to drive.

It just sounds more like someone who just loves to complain and is always on the lookout for some way to identify a problem they can give out about.

Wigglepuppy · 03-08-2016 01:27PM

Zxclnic wrote: »

Thanks Lisha for your common sense.

Agreed. But Lisha's outlook is nothing like Louise's and not what is being criticised. You don't get called a misandrist for being a feminist like Lisha, you get called a misandrist for having hostile views towards men.

orubiru · 03-08-2016 01:34PM

Zxclnic wrote: »

The same way some women trap men with pregnancies?
That's a very nebulous area, made even more so by your accusatory choice of words.
What do you mean by 'trap' exactly?

The same way some women falsely accuse of rape?

To falsely accuse someone of rape is horrendous and a despicable thing to do, on that we can agree.
But when you say ''the same way'' what do you mean, the same as what?

The same way some women marry for money?
Forgive me, but that's just funny!:)

I think the point being made here is that if a small percentage of people in a group are bad then that doesn't make the entire group bad and we shouldn't hold the entire group responsible.

El Caffo is illustrating the paradoxical nature of Lux23's reasoning.

Your post is really shining a light on the double standard present in society. I see ya jumping on El Caffo to ask for clarification about false rape allegations or women trapping men with pregnancy. I don't see ya jumping on Lux23 for saying "by default a woman has to be wary about all men". That's quite telling.

Of course, I am making assumptions. Do you ever consider though that you might have a massive bias and that the bias has blinded you even just a little?

When some men do something bad then it's fine to blame "men".

When some women do something bad... well it's unreasonable to blame "women", right?

Analogy time. It's like when the opposition team commits a foul, we are all demanding justice from the referee. However when our team commits a foul? Ah, sure, the ref could be a bit more lenient there couldn't he?

Sometimes it seems like every good point Feminists make they also manage to unmake by not actually treating people equally regardless of their gender.

Zxclnic · 03-08-2016 01:39PM

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

Agreed. But Lisha's outlook is nothing like Louise's and not what is being criticised. You don't get called a misandrist for being a feminist like Lisha, you get called a misandrist for having hostile views towards men.

I think you're correct, that's why I thanked your post.
Unfortunately I might have to review the thread again - sigh, I really haven't the time or the stomach - as I do think that some people on this thread wrongly equate feminism with misandry.

Icemancometh · 03-08-2016 01:43PM

Zxclnic wrote: »

I think you're correct, that's why I thanked your post.
Unfortunately I might have to review the thread again - sigh, I really haven't the time or the stomach - as I do think that some people on this thread wrongly equate feminism with misandry.

Louise O'Neill would appear to be equating the two to judge from her Twitter account.

livedadream · 03-08-2016 01:47PM

Icemancometh wrote: »

Louise O'Neill would appear to be equating the two to judge from her Twitter account.

i think we've been over this a few pages back,

she is either not representative or is being sarcastic because that's what alot of people refer to her as.

i dont think she actually hates men.

Zxclnic · 03-08-2016 01:47PM

orubiru wrote: »

I think the point being made here is that if a small percentage of people in a group are bad then that doesn't make the entire group bad and we shouldn't hold the entire group responsible.

El Caffo is illustrating the paradoxical nature of Lux23's reasoning. Your post is really shining a light on the double standard present in society.

When some men do something bad then it's fine to blame "men".

When some women do something bad... well it's unreasonable to blame "women", right?

Sometimes it seems like every good point Feminists make they also manage to unmake by not actually treating people equally regardless of their gender.

It's OK to group men together but we need to encourage women to be unique and free individuals?

I think the first sentence in your post above is irrefutable, though I'm not sure that it's an accurate synopsis of El Caffo's contribution. I'm sorry, I just don't see it.

orubiru · 03-08-2016 01:48PM

Zxclnic wrote: »

I think you're correct, that's why I thanked your post.
Unfortunately I might have to review the thread again - sigh, I really haven't the time or the stomach - as I do think that some people on this thread wrongly equate feminism with misandry.

What if they aren't wrong?

Would you even consider it?

Of course, we all know the dictionary definition of Feminism. By that definition I would be a Feminist.

Would you consider the possibility that some people would use the Feminist label as a cover to hide, or a shield to protect, their bigoted views or their misandry?

After all, it wouldn't been the first time a good or noble cause has been hijacked, subverted and used to bully or victimise.

Lisha · 03-08-2016 01:50PM

Zxclnic wrote: »

I think you're correct, that's why I thanked your post.
Unfortunately I might have to review the thread again - sigh, I really haven't the time or the stomach - as I do think that some people on this thread wrongly equate feminism with misandry.

Fair point. Thank you.
Thanks wiggle puppy, I suppose I wrote the post as It was annoying me that people are wrongly equating feminism with misandry.

As children /teenagers my mother always quietly and solidly encouraged our education.
She had to marry as she was pregnant with me (mid70s) and I'm not sure that was the best thing for her.
In my Mother's opinion education would give her daughters so many more choices than her. I suppose she was my 'feminist role model'.
To see how extreme feminism has all but destroyed equality based feminism is tragic.

Icemancometh · 03-08-2016 01:50PM

livedadream wrote: »

i think we've been over this a few pages back,

she is either not representative or is being sarcastic because that's what alot of people refer to her as.

i dont think she actually hates men.

If someone tells me that they are a racist, I tend to believe them. If someone says 'i am a misogynist' I'd believe them to.

Zxclnic · 03-08-2016 01:51PM

Icemancometh wrote: »

Louise O'Neill would appear to be equating the two to judge from her Twitter account.

She does indeed, that's her problem.
I was defending myself and my own posts.
If you've read the thread and my contributions you'll know that I've never defended or supported Louise O'Neill's views.:)

orubiru · 03-08-2016 01:51PM

Zxclnic wrote: »

I think the first sentence in your post above is irrefutable, though I'm not sure that it's an accurate synopsis of El Caffo's contribution. I'm sorry, I just don't see it.

Maybe. Then I am giving El Caffo the benefit of the doubt while you are coming to the worst possible conclusion.

Either way, there is a contradiction when one poster can generalise men and another poster can generalise women and yet we treat those generalisations differently. Don't you think?

homerjay2005 · 03-08-2016 01:52PM

Lisha wrote: »

I dunno this thread is making me feel very sad.

I thought believed in feminism, but now it seems that being a feminist means you must be a misandrist.
This is news to me.

I believe all people are equal and that it is the person's abilities (and their desire to be happy and successful) that matter not their gender.

I am a mother to a boy and a girl. While they are different people I try to treat them equally and not to limit any ambitions they have. I value both of their educations and I tell them both that the only thing stopping them being doctors (or anything else) is themselves.

I tell them both to respect others and to be kind to others and to themselves. They are young now but when they are teenagers, they will both hear the dangers of excessive alcohol and drug consumption. They will both be told that being too drunk can lead them to be in precarious situations. I will educate them both about sexual boundaries/manners and about making sure any situation they are in is consensual on both sides.

And they better use condoms or I will kill them. They will both be told not to be walking alone after dark. They will both be told to protect themselves .

For me being a feminist meant that my education meant I could achieve any career I chose. It meant motherhood was still possible along with my education and career. That I could walk in to any interview with my head held as high as any man.

I don't hate any man, nor do I want to. I do hate rapists and abusers and those who terrorise people.
I believe in people. It's s pity there are done crap ones in the world but I prefer to concentrate on the good and ignore the bad.

i think everybody agrees with this, but it honestly has nothing to do with what is being discussed.

what is being discussed is one persons blatant hatred and dramatisation of everything towards men.

padd b1975 · 03-08-2016 01:56PM

El Caffo wrote: »

The same way some women trap men with pregnancies? The same way some women falsely accuse of rape? The same way some women marry for money?

Don't forget the disgusting point scoring by women when it comes to paternal access, consistently enabled by the family courts.

Louise O Neill

Comments