"Women needs to face facts about the link between rape and drinking"

SVJKarate · 27-07-2016 7:59pm

dr.bollocko wrote: »

What you guys are implying is that all that is needed for a rape to happen is the opportunity.

Nobody here said that.

Rape requires a person with the "zero moral compass" which allows them to rape, and the opportunity.

As for your scissors, I've no idea what you're talking about.

27-07-2016 8:00pm

Rapers gonna rape.
Thats all women need to know.

Dyr · 27-07-2016 9:18pm

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Then on the other side there's an implication that if a woman gets drunk and raped that it's more deserved because they didn't think to, for example, drink less. Which is a pretty dim view of females.

Its sorta funny to see a poster repeatedly explain something in simple terms only for someone to jump to the same wrong conclusion based on muscle memory from sheer habit I guess.

might as well be showing a dog a card trick for all its worth.

Dravokivich · 28-07-2016 10:44am

Zen65 wrote: »

I have only a little say in who should be elected as a TD in my area, but for me that's not a reason to not vote.

You have as much say as anyone else that votes.

People who have not been a victim, aren't such because they were determined not to be a victim.

Zen65 · 28-07-2016 11:50am

Dravokivich wrote: »

You have as much say as anyone else that votes.

People who have not been a victim, aren't such because they were determined not to be a victim.

People who take precautions against being a victim are less likely to become a victim. There's been plenty of research into that in all fields of life, including crime.

A house fitted with an alarm is less likely to be broken into.

A person who walks with a large dog is less likely to be assaulted.

A person who looks like a lost tourist is more likely to be mugged or assaulted.

A child who has trained in martial arts is less likely to be bullied at school.

As much as some people like to peddle an agenda to the contrary, we can influence our chances (positively or negatively) of being a victim by taking precautions or by not taking certain actions. There are no guarantees, but that does not invalidate the precaution.

SVJKarate · 28-07-2016 12:16pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

People who have not been a victim, aren't such because they were determined not to be a victim.

People who have been victims of a crime are not such because they were determined to be victims.

Some people who have been determined to avoid being a victim, and took precautions, still because victims. Some did not. At the individual level there is not a one-to-one causal relationship between precaution and outcome.

You can smoke and live to be 100, you can do drugs and still have a normal life, you can drive or ride in a car without a seat-belt, or regularly drive at speed, and still be accident-free, but each of these choices increases your chances of an adverse consequence. It cannot be argued otherwise, except by a fool.

It should not really be an issue then to state the simple truth that it is possible to reduce the risk of being a victim of crime. It applies to any crime, from pick-pocketing, to identity theft, to murder.

You can reduce the chance of being assaulted. You can reduce the chance of being bullied at school. Some of the things you could do to reduce those chances could be unacceptable to you. Some of them could expose you to another risk (you could stay in bed all day, but that has far more certain and severe consequences for your quality of life).

Where a person has been the victim of a crime it is untrue to suggest that they are to blame for that. A person is entitled to walk where they wish, wearing whatever they wish, and factors these cannot be seen as being "contributory" to the crime of assault by any right-minded person.

Zen65 · 28-07-2016 12:27pm

dr.bollocko wrote: »

And no amount of exploding nuclear dick scissors hidden in sober vaginas is gonna change that.

Wow, . . . yet they made you a moderator?

28-07-2016 1:24pm

dr.bollocko wrote: »

What you guys are implying is that all that is needed for a rape to happen is the opportunity. An easy target. Which is a pretty dim view of males. Then on the other side there's an implication that if a woman gets drunk and raped that it's more deserved because they didn't think to, for example, drink less. Which is a pretty dim view of females.

A rapists is gonna rape. They create the easy targets. And no amount of exploding nuclear dick scissors hidden in sober vaginas is gonna change that.

Associating a rape crime with car damage is fine though. Because women are things right?

There's nothing "politically correct" about suggesting your point of view is wrong.

Its not a dim view of males :rolleyes: If a girl is so drunk she cant walk it just takes her to come across one wrong person and she might get in trouble. All the woman in the article was saying is girls should try look after themselves and refrain from getting so drunk that they are targets to those creeps. If a girl is drunk and taken advantage of by a creep its still 100% not her fault but I think its best to try encourage young girls to not be in situations where it might be more dangerous for them.

storker · 28-07-2016 1:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Its not a dim view of males :rolleyes: If a girl is so drunk she cant walk it just takes her to come across one wrong person and she might get in trouble. All the woman in the article was saying is girls should try look after themselves and refrain from getting so drunk that they are targets to those creeps. If a girl is drunk and taken advantage of by a creep its still 100% not her fault but I think its best to try encourage young girls to not be in situations where it might be more dangerous for them.

There's also the consideration that being drunk will not help someone's credibility if later they end up giving evidence in court.

dr.bollocko · 28-07-2016 1:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Its not a dim view of males :rolleyes:

Zen65 wrote: »

Wow, . . . yet they made you a moderator?

Roman Diaz wrote: »

Sweet Jesus, such tripe.

Lolol.

Believe it or not, throwing insults and then circle jerking some thanks amongst the same regulars does not actually make a solid counter-argument.

There are no women I know of that don't alter their behaviour because of fear of rape in some way at some point. Focusing on the situation and this "she had it coming for drinking" mentality you guys are showing is shortsighted as saying "Most people who get raped leave the house. Responsible women should limit their risk of getting sexually assaulted by not leaving the house".

Maguined · 28-07-2016 2:15pm

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Lolol.

Believe it or not, throwing insults and then circle jerking some thanks amongst the same regulars does not actually make a solid counter-argument.

There are no women I know of that don't alter their behaviour because of fear of rape in some way at some point. Focusing on the situation and this "she had it coming for drinking" mentality you guys are showing is shortsighted as saying "Most people who get raped leave the house. Responsible women should limit their risk of getting sexually assaulted by not leaving the house".

No one is displaying this mentality at all and your perversion of peoples points into this blatant lie is not a solid counter argument for yourself.

blue note · 28-07-2016 2:24pm

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Lolol.

Believe it or not, throwing insults and then circle jerking some thanks amongst the same regulars does not actually make a solid counter-argument.

There are no women I know of that don't alter their behaviour because of fear of rape in some way at some point. Focusing on the situation and this "she had it coming for drinking" mentality you guys are showing is shortsighted as saying "Most people who get raped leave the house. Responsible women should limit their risk of getting sexually assaulted by not leaving the house".

It's interesting that you say that all of the women you know alter their behaviour in some way due to fear of rape. You're villifying those on this thread that advise women that this is an unfortunate necessity - saying that this is victim blaming, etc.

Are all the women you know wrong to alter their behaviour in any way? if they tell their friend to get a taxi home after a night out are they saying it will be their fault if they get raped if they walk instead?

LorMal · 28-07-2016 4:27pm

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Lolol.

Believe it or not, throwing insults and then circle jerking some thanks amongst the same regulars does not actually make a solid counter-argument.

There are no women I know of that don't alter their behaviour because of fear of rape in some way at some point. Focusing on the situation and this "she had it coming for drinking" mentality you guys are showing is shortsighted as saying "Most people who get raped leave the house. Responsible women should limit their risk of getting sexually assaulted by not leaving the house".

Can you point out where anyone has said this? I am late to this debate so I may have missed it.

28-07-2016 4:29pm

A woman was allegedly sexually assaulted this morning at approx 2.30 am in ronanstown.

She was cycling alone, I suppose women need to face the facts between cycling alone and rape too??

Zen65 · 28-07-2016 4:36pm

dr.bollocko wrote:

"Responsible women should limit their risk of getting sexually assaulted by not leaving the house".

Actually, that's really bad advice on any level.

Firstly, women who are victims of sexual assault are most likely (60%+) to be assaulted by someone they know. In over 40% of cases (from memory of UK Metropolitan Police stats) the assault is carried out by their partner or other close family member. Spending her life at home makes a woman more vulnerable, not less.

I teach self-defence, including women's self-defence. I've spent years researching the topic, I've met and spoken to victims and I know how difficult it is for them to face the world after such trauma. Without blaming themselves, most victims consider the advice to drink only in moderation as sensible advice. Sadly, many victims (male and female) do blame themselves because of their state of intoxication at the time.

I know this is the AH forum, but if the only contribution you can make to a topic this serious is crude references to exploding scissors in women's bodies then really I'd suggest you should stick to your music fora where you're views are less harmful.

Nobody here has suggested the sort of liberty-restricting precautions that you have spoken of. It's a fact that women who, for whatever reason, are confined to their homes often suffer the worst abuse. Limiting the intake of alcohol (or drugs) is good advice for both genders and is a significant risk reduction strategy, especially in circumstances where there is limited support available, and especially for women where the consequences of vulnerability can be greater.

El_Duderino 09 · 28-07-2016 4:37pm

The good intention gets lost in these discussions.

Rape isn't usually about sex and it's usually about power. Being vulnerable makes you more likely to be raped. Being drunk makes you vulnerable.

Obviously the onus is on men not to rape. I respect that a woman has every right to do exactly as she pleases but a rapist will not.

Zen65 · 28-07-2016 4:47pm

bubblypop wrote: »

A woman was allegedly sexually assaulted this morning at approx 2.30 am in ronanstown.

She was cycling alone, I suppose women need to face the facts between cycling alone and rape too??

What facts would those be?

We know almost nothing about this case except that a woman has been left traumatised as a result of a cowardly and evil act by men. Even by the standards of AH it's inappropriate to speculate or moralise about it.

If you want to debate whether there is merit in taking precautions against crime, then fire away; we're reading. If you want to make jibes at the expense of a woman who has suffered at the hands of men, maybe this isn't the country for you.

LorMal · 28-07-2016 5:34pm

As usual on Boards, there are a number of posters taking offence about an argument nobody is actually positing.

Despite all the sarcastic counterpoints such as 'responsible women should limit their risk of getting sexually assaulted by not leaving the house' and 'I suppose women need to face the facts between cycling alone and rape too' I don't believe anyone here is actually suggesting women deserve to be raped or are in any way responsible for being raped as a result of drinking too much.

All the self righteousness is a pity, because there is a point being missed. A couple of years ago my 16 year old son got completely wasted on vodka and ended up aimlessly wandering the streets having missed his bus home - out of his skull. It was a terrifying experience because he left himself wide open to being harmed. Luckily I found him after a couple of hours frantically searching the streets.

If he had been mugged, beaten up or worse, it would not have been his fault. However, I really hope he will not leave himself that vulnerable to harm again through getting so drunk that he cannot take care of himself.

Likewise, I have tried to instill the same caution in my daughter who is of similar age. nobody is victim blaming here - simply making the point that completely irresponsible behaviour will make you vulnerable to the evil bastards out there.

28-07-2016 7:20pm

Zen65 wrote: »

What facts would those be?

We know almost nothing about this case except that a woman has been left traumatised as a result of a cowardly and evil act by men. Even by the standards of AH it's inappropriate to speculate or moralise about it.

If you want to debate whether there is merit in taking precautions against crime, then fire away; we're reading. If you want to make jibes at the expense of a woman who has suffered at the hands of men, maybe this isn't the country for you.

The same FACTS that link drinking and rape.

IE, none.

eviltwin · 28-07-2016 7:29pm

Zen65 wrote: »

What facts would those be?

We know almost nothing about this case except that a woman has been left traumatised as a result of a cowardly and evil act by men. Even by the standards of AH it's inappropriate to speculate or moralise about it.

If you want to debate whether there is merit in taking precautions against crime, then fire away; we're reading. If you want to make jibes at the expense of a woman who has suffered at the hands of men, maybe this isn't the country for you.

If you look at some of the comments online there are plenty in the "what was she doing out on her own at that time of night" vein. It's taking focus away from the rapists and onto the woman and her behaviour. I don't want to live in a society where I have to assess every risky behaviour with an assessment of how likely I am to be raped.

dr.bollocko · 28-07-2016 7:38pm

Zen65 wrote: »

Actually, that's really bad advice on any level.

Firstly, women who are victims of sexual assault are most likely (60%+) to be assaulted by someone they know. In over 40% of cases (from memory of UK Metropolitan Police stats) the assault is carried out by their partner or other close family member. Spending her life at home makes a woman more vulnerable, not less.

I teach self-defence, including women's self-defence. I've spent years researching the topic, I've met and spoken to victims and I know how difficult it is for them to face the world after such trauma. Without blaming themselves, most victims consider the advice to drink only in moderation as sensible advice. Sadly, many victims (male and female) do blame themselves because of their state of intoxication at the time.

I know this is the AH forum, but if the only contribution you can make to a topic this serious is crude references to exploding scissors in women's bodies then really I'd suggest you should stick to your music fora where you're views are less harmful.

Nobody here has suggested the sort of liberty-restricting precautions that you have spoken of. It's a fact that women who, for whatever reason, are confined to their homes often suffer the worst abuse. Limiting the intake of alcohol (or drugs) is good advice for both genders and is a significant risk reduction strategy, especially in circumstances where there is limited support available, and especially for women where the consequences of vulnerability can be greater.

Congratulations on spectacularly misunderstanding my point on every individual level. Such a feat is actually vaguely admirable.

28-07-2016 7:39pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't want to live in a society where I have to assess every risky behaviour with an assessment of how likely I am to be raped.

If 'women' take the 'proper precautions' and not get blind drunk, or walk alone at night, and avoid alleyways and dodgy neigbourhoods, revealing clothes and high heels you can't run in, the would-be rapist will look for another, easier victim.

Thats the reality. Rape won't stop because women avoid becoming victims, someone will always be the victim, it just might not be you this time.

There'll still be just as many victims unless the rapists behaviour is tackled, but it's much easier to ask all women to think of themselves as would-be victims and change their behaviour accordingly.

Foxtrol · 28-07-2016 7:42pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't want to live in a society where I have to assess every risky behaviour with an assessment of how likely I am to be raped.

Good luck with finding that society. No amount of self-righteous indignation is going to stop bad people from doing bad things or in general bad things from happening to you.

We’re constantly weighing up risks throughout our daily lives; I just don’t fathom how this one bad outcome is something seemingly so many object to trying to lower the risk by taking rational measures.

Foxtrol · 28-07-2016 7:45pm

Candie wrote: »

If 'women' take the 'proper precautions' and not get blind drunk, or walk alone at night, and avoid alleyways and dodgy neigbourhoods, revealing clothes and high heels you can't run in, the would-be rapist will look for another, easier victim.

Thats the reality. Rape won't stop because women avoid becoming victims, someone will always be the victim, it just might not be you this time.

There'll still be just as many victims unless the rapists behaviour is tackled, but it's much easier to ask all women to think of themselves as would-be victims and change their behaviour accordingly.

It's not an either or situation. Telling people to take precautions to lower the risks of a crime happening to them does not mean that you can't also tackle the perpetrators.

El_Dangeroso · 28-07-2016 7:45pm

If people seem so dead-set on comparing rape to theft or accidents. (Which is disgusting, demeaning and insulting to rape victims, not that you really care) then where is the Indo article about the dangers of drinking for men who might injure themselves walking home? I see loads of threads of 'hilarious' drunken antics on AH, where are all the safety-conscious posters on those threads reminding men of the hazards of increasing your vulnerability by getting drunk?

Where are the indo threads about the incidence of accidents that befall men while drunk?

OR could it be that it's such a fucking obvious thing that it doesn't need to be stated? OK then so why do women need to be reminded of this?

Foxtrol · 28-07-2016 7:58pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

If people seem so dead-set on comparing rape to theft or accidents. (Which is disgusting, demeaning and insulting to rape victims, not that you really care) then where is the Indo article about the dangers of drinking for men who might injure themselves walking home? I see loads of threads of 'hilarious' drunken antics on AH, where are all the safety-conscious posters on those threads reminding men of the hazards of increasing your vulnerability by getting drunk?

Where are the indo threads about the incidence of accidents that befall men while drunk?

OR could it be that it's such a fucking obvious thing that it doesn't need to be stated? OK then so why do women need to be reminded of this?

There are plenty out there. Specifically there was a TV ad campaign, I think in NI, which tackled issues of street accidents while intoxicated and regularly there are ‘know your limits’ ads that highlight the negative risks/outcomes of drinking too much.

If you’re saying there are similarities, why is it that these ads can air on primetime TV and there is no defensiveness, while a simple opinion piece causes this sort of over the top response?

El_Dangeroso · 28-07-2016 8:06pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

There are plenty out there. Specifically there was a TV ad campaign, I think in NI, which tackled issues of street accidents while intoxicated and regularly there are ‘know your limits’ ads that highlight the negative risks/outcomes of drinking too much.

If you’re saying there are similarities, why is it that these ads can air on primetime TV and there is no defensiveness, while a simple opinion piece causes this sort of over the top response?

That's great, everyone should know their limits with alcohol.

So you think it would be good to have a PSA ad showing a woman getting drunk and then she's sexually assaulted? If not, why not?

Foxtrol · 28-07-2016 8:31pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

That's great, everyone should know their limits with alcohol.

So you think it would be good to have a PSA ad showing a woman getting drunk and then she's sexually assaulted? If not, why not?

Yes, I do. They have released similar in other jurisdictions.

El_Dangeroso · 28-07-2016 8:33pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Yes, I do. They have released similar in other jurisdictions.

Really? I can't imagine that not being super-offensive. Care to share a link?

Sand · 28-07-2016 8:38pm

bubblypop wrote: »

The same FACTS that link drinking and rape.

IE, none.

I enjoy debates where people present different views and values and reach a common ground - if not conclusion - based on evidence and logic.

And then you have debates where people just ignore presented evidence and logic and say "Nuh-Uh".

"Women needs to face facts about the link between rape and drinking"

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