Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

Macca07 · 26-07-2016 11:41AM

Going Forward wrote: »

The legal advice, him getting some is key.

And good advice.

Even with it I'm doubting any garda member anywhere is going to assume "ownership" of this case, but I agree it's probably the only sensible way forward at this stage.

Slight possibility though that if that happens he may have grounds for his own GSOC complaint, but only if he goes by the book 100%.

Otherwise it's round and round in circles forever.

Would it be an option to talk to the PSNI across the border in Fermanagh? They did question if she walked to a toy shop in a nearby town there, so don't think it should be out of the question either.

Johnboy1951 · 26-07-2016 11:57AM

Going Forward wrote:

The three theories of what happened to the child have never been professionally examined.

You do not KNOW this. For the very same reason that none of us knows very much at all about any investigation that is ongoing or completed.
The guards do NOT release information to the public about their investigations, except where they have a planned reason for doing so.
Almost all the questions, implications drawn, and theories presented, in this thread are based on this lack of information and very little else bar conjecture.
As I said previously I believe all that conjecture and theorising is completely beside the main point which IMO should be to bring pressure to bear on 'officialdom' to pursue the investigation with renewed vigour.

Going Forward · 26-07-2016 01:59PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

You do not KNOW this. For the very same reason that none of us knows very much at all about any investigation that is ongoing or completed.
The guards do NOT release information to the public about their investigations, except where they have a planned reason for doing so.
Almost all the questions, implications drawn, and theories presented, in this thread are based on this lack of information and very little else bar conjecture.
As I said previously I believe all that conjecture and theorising is completely beside the main point which IMO should be to bring pressure to bear on 'officialdom' to pursue the investigation with renewed vigour.

I'm basing the three possible theories on Martin Collins' own account of him putting 3 scenarios to a witness.

Going Forward · 26-07-2016 02:06PM

Macca07 wrote: »

Would it be an option to talk to the PSNI across the border in Fermanagh? They did question if she walked to a toy shop in a nearby town there, so don't think it should be out of the question either.

Who knows?

I wouldn't think so. The scenario sounds like a load of cobblers really.

Seems like the two ex detectives thought the same about it.

bagels · 26-07-2016 04:16PM

If the investigation, as claimed by the Minister, is still ongoing then perhaps you should ask (in writing) for the identity and contact details of the Gardai conducting the investigation. Maybe the Garda Press Office might be more forthcoming with information?
Many people support your cause oranbhoy67 and have enormous respect and admiration for the efforts you and others are making to find Mary.

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 04:52PM

Going Forward wrote: »

Gemma O'Doherty has now run out of steam.

That's understandable.

This is the reality. It was going to happen sooner or later, she's only human.

She gave it a good shot.

Threw everything at it.

But no response, bar a denial by two politicians.

One short and sweet and one particularly laboured.

They're both irrelevant as it happens.

No updates, nothing at all has become of the documentary, bar on line speculation, the majority of which can attributed to supporters of Sinn Fein according to Michael Clifford, a reporter for the Irish Examiner.

Michale O'Toole came across someone who swears the gardai knobbled his staements, twice, and nothing is said.

No one cares to ask why, except, according to Mick Clifford, Sinn Fein supporters.

Michael O'Toole publishes news of a new probe, and it's dismissed by gardai.

So, where to from here.

Oranboy71 has been advised to get legal advice, that's good advice, but, it costs money.

He's also been advised to bring any new evidence somewhere.

I asked the person, who's bona fides I do not question, where should he bring it and there's been no response.

No one knows where to go or what to do from here.

Everything is still as it was 39 years ago.

In spite of a documentary and it's viewers who for some reason were fit to be on the tail end of disparaging remarks from Mick Clifford, a journalist who failed to see the irony that it was the documentary in the first place which made him say something in the first place, just in case some other mainstream print "journalist" got in ahead of him.

Nothing changes. Every thing is as it was.

The three theories of what happened to the child have never been professionally examined. No arrests, no particular effort being displayed, no sense of urgency.

No comment.

There was always just two theories. Two official scenarios suggested.

Two.

The child grew up, alive, into the portrait the cops still publish, or she fell into a hole on the way back to the house.

Two possibilities.

I have excluded the possibility of her being picked up by aliens from outer space for obvious reasons.

I've been thinking since about how the media is covering this, the section of the media that is.

Michael O'Toole, if your still following the thread, the gardai have dismissed the news you published, that there's a new "probe" underway.

According to them the current investigation is ongoing, since 2011.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/garda-confirm-mary-boyle-cold-case-review-34878309.html

What's your reaction to that?

It looks like some lackey in the gaurds blurted out something about a new probe to you.

Which you duly published under the attention-grabbing banner headline:

"Cold Case Exclusive, finished off with COLD CASE COPS LAUNCH MARY PROBE"

And that's not a criticism directed at you, because you had the wisdom to ask the gardai who appear to be suffering from a lethargic reaction to this case, for a response to O'Doherty's documentary.

And you got the story out there again, so as Ive said down-thread, kudos where it is due.

It's directed to the Independent which ran the dismissive counter-story.

But also, what's the gardai's reaction to your 2nd day of Mary Boyle excusives, your interviewee's explosive claims that his statements were faked?

The silence on that claim from the cops is deafening.

Have you had any response?

I know that it's a fast paced profession but I genuinely think a reaction from the gardai about this Red VW is essential.

Have you sought one and if so what did they say?

. NOTE:I had to delete this as i posted the wrong attachment so here it is with right one

you, or any of us here, do not know what the gardai may be doing. They do not disclose their strategies unless it is for some operational reason, like trying to get public support in investigations - in general not this one specifically.

Someone asked about Daly. This is a still of a press report from the doc which just says he was an Inspector at Ballyshannon

oranbhoy67 · 26-07-2016 04:54PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just on this oranbhoy - the Garda detectives have email- if you are following up progress with them it is always better to deal by email rather than phone call, that way you have records of what was said and whats being done.

The format for Garda email addresses is firstname.lastname@garda.ie
If the detective is giving you the runabout then email him every 7 days for three weeks. If no reply then at least you have proof that youre not getting any response and ask questions as to why.

Finally this website allows you to be certain that an email address actually exists- its sends a test email to confirm its a live email address
http://verify-email.org/

Thank you I will do this, makes everything more formal and means I can keep it on file when its done like this. I doubt they will reply asking am i "the scotsman" and promise a callback thru email

Macca07 wrote: »

Would it be an option to talk to the PSNI across the border in Fermanagh? They did question if she walked to a toy shop in a nearby town there, so don't think it should be out of the question either.

There's no chance on earth that that she walked to Fermanagh. none .
however the PSNI have been asked to question a relative of the suspect who lives there who we think may have information on the case.

bagels wrote: »

If the investigation, as claimed by the Minister, is still ongoing then perhaps you should ask (in writing) for the identity and contact details of the Gardai conducting the investigation. Maybe the Garda Press Office might be more forthcoming with information?
Many people support your cause oranbhoy67 and have enormous respect and admiration for the efforts you and others are making to find Mary.

Thanks very much I appreciate it, but its all about wee Mary and just glad to see so many people beginning to see what we are dealing with here and all debate is good and healthy we just really need to keep this top of the agenda as much as we can

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 05:10PM

The documentary says they went to Cashelard where the parents and brother of Anne Boyle, Mary's mother, lived. is this the brother that died?

oranbhoy67 · 26-07-2016 05:20PM

jenny smith wrote: »

The documentary says they went to Cashelard where the parents and brother of Anne Boyle, Mary's mother, lived. is this the brother that died?

Im confused . im not fully aware of the Gallagher side of the family

the brother I do know that has passed away is the one who can be seen talking to Ann (mother) that Mary might have wandered off trying to go to Beleek to look for a toy that she had saw previously

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 05:41PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

Im confused . im not fully aware of the Gallagher side of the family

the brother I do know that has passed away is the one who can be seen talking to Ann (mother) that Mary might have wandered off trying to go to Beleek to look for a toy that she had saw previously

I thought it may be him. About 6 mins 20 secs it says they went to Cashelard "where the parents and brother of Mary's mother, Anne Boyle, lived"

Giacomo McGubbin · 26-07-2016 06:41PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Im guessing a cadaver dog would be able to sniff several acres of land in a day, it could be a good option and worth exploring. If there was a find it would certainly blow this case wide open from a missing person case to something entirely different, it would force people to act.

One place worth still worth excavating professionally now, is the spot repeatedly identified down he lane from the house by a tracker dog used in the original search. The postman who was recently interviewed, remembers the dog and the spot, and he said it was never folllowed up on at the time. He would be well able to identify the area today, and would be well worth talking to. I can't understand why no one has excavated that area yet or spoken with him.

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 06:43PM

Satriale wrote: »

Speaking of dogs, i was listening to a Podcast recently called "Somebody Knows something" about the disappearance of a 5 year old boy in 1972(Adrian MacNaughten). A couple of episodes were about using cadaver dogs to search for the 44 year old body. Very interesting stuff, i wonder if there have ever been cadaver dogs used for this case.

Would dogs, not just cadaver dogs, not be attracted to any burial site? Would there still be a scent there even though its only bones presumably and surely dogs roaming around such a rural area

Who is the man known to Mary who followed sergeant Collins to Fenor on the way to Bundoran. Collins got into his car. He cried, said he knew the girls and was fond of them.The man said he had children the same age and how he felt about Mary's disappearance

To Collins three possible scenarios he said the last i.e murder. Was he further questioned?

Giacomo McGubbin · 26-07-2016 06:54PM

Does anyone know if the suspect ever owned pigs and if so when ?

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 07:01PM

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

Does anyone know if the suspect ever owned pigs and if so when ?

oh my god i hope i don't see where this is going

SusieBlue · 26-07-2016 07:14PM

Very curious about the stance the psychics and clairvoyants used had.
If it'll effect any potential prosecution, feel free to ignore. Would just like to hear what their theory was.
Did they believe the person responsible to be the same person that Mary's sister believes is responsible?

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 07:36PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Very curious about the stance the psychics and clairvoyants used had.
If it'll effect any potential prosecution, feel free to ignore. Would just like to hear what their theory was.
Did they believe the person responsible to be the same person that Mary's sister believes is responsible?

very little i would say. one mentioned got distressed at the house and left. Doesn't say why or what her feelings about the suspect were

Crosiet was one of the best known in his time. I do not think he was involved in this case This is what wiki says "
Croiset claimed he helped to solve the case of an assault of a girl in Wierden, the Netherlands. The Chief of Police of Wierden stated however, that the information by Croiset was inaccurate and his communications were not used in the case.[4] He was investigated under controlled conditions by The Belgian Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Phenomena Reputed to be Paranormal and they found no evidence of psychic ability.[5]
The skeptic James Lett has written:

The truth is that the overwhelming majority of Croiset’s predictions were either vague and nonfalsifiable or simply wrong. Given the fact that Croiset made thousands of predictions during his lifetime, it is hardly surprising that he enjoyed one or two chance “hits”.[6]

The Dutch parapsychologist Wilhelm Tenhaeff has written Croiset had genuine psychic powers due to the information he had given in police cases, however it was discovered that much of Tenhaeff’s data was fraudulent.

if you google psychics who claim to help police you will find the claim is often false or overstated and anything the say so vague to be meaningless. they are con artists who sometimes guess right. As my friend says even a stopped clock is right twice a day

Going Forward · 26-07-2016 08:23PM

jenny smith wrote: »

Who is the man known to Mary who followed sergeant Collins to Fenor on the way to Bundoran. Collins got into his car. He cried, said he knew the girls and was fond of them.The man said he had children the same age and how he felt about Mary's disappearance

To Collins three possible scenarios he said the last i.e murder. Was he further questioned?

Don't particularly want a name but that's been confusing me ever since I saw it.

Without naming names did Collins in fact imply there were two different people that he had put the 3 questions scenario to or just one person?

I'd thought the person you are speaking about now was a different person, someone who claimed to have information but backed out.

Not a suspect themselves in other words.

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 08:30PM

Going Forward wrote: »

Don't particularly want a name but that's been confusing me ever since I saw it.

Without naming names did Collins in fact imply there were two different people that he had put the 3 questions scenario to or just one person?

I'd thought the person you are speaking about now was a different person, someone who claimed to have information but backed out.

Not a suspect themselves in other words.

I don't know it is confusing. He said he put the three questions to the suspect when the suspect was at the garda station when the psychic was there. But he does not say who the person in the car was that he also put the three questions to, only he knew the girls had children of his own etc. so the person in the car may have been a witness

oranbhoy67 · 26-07-2016 08:36PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Very curious about the stance the psychics and clairvoyants used had.
If it'll effect any potential prosecution, feel free to ignore. Would just like to hear what their theory was.
Did they believe the person responsible to be the same person that Mary's sister believes is responsible?

as you can imagine there hs been hundreds of people put forth their own beliefs in the case from a psychic viewpoint, the psychic in question mentioned briefly in the documentary was ( as far as i know) recommended to the gardai by the RUC at the time and was took to the house and ran out screaming that it was a house of evil & that they should speak to the man who yes we also believe is our main suspect.. that is why the gards then asked him down again for a chat , he initially refused to speak to the gards but relented and came down for an informal chat.

I take psychic stuff with a massive pinch of salt, I don't believe that any of them have ever led the police anywhere to a missing persons body for example, id loved to be told otherwise on this though.

however as I said yesterday there has been other stuff happened that has certainly made me question my beliefs in the supernatural etc , I don't want to go into full details but 2 people that have came forward have daughters, - one were a set of twins too , who their parents would hear them talk to people in their room at night , and when they asked the next day the kids would say who they were talking to .. and needless to say in both cases it was people deceased and who are related to this case.

In the case of the twins they told us a story they said their little girls told them that matches exactly our theory of what has happened to Mary , and it is something that we haven't made public at all.. so these girls - now teenagers but still adamant of what happened - had no way of knowing this , in fact it would have been over a decade ago this happened, before we really figured out this theory ourselves & these kids and their parents weren't in touch with us till recently .. so throughout the mountain of crackpot spiritualists and crank messages we have been getting etc just these 2 stories have really stood out as they are both very similar and from people actually in 2 different countries .

Id just like to clarify that this in no way is part of what we would term evidence or anything close to it.. but it does just make even a skeptic like me wonder.

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 08:41PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

as you can imagine there hs been hundreds of people put forth their own beliefs in the case from a psychic viewpoint, the psychic in question mentioned briefly in the documentary was ( as far as i know) recommended to the gardai by the RUC at the time and was took to the house and ran out screaming that it was a house of evil & that they should speak to the man who yes we also believe is our main suspect.. that is why the gards then asked him down again for a chat , he initially refused to speak to the gards but relented and came down for an informal chat.

I take psychic stuff with a massive pinch of salt, I don't believe that any of them have ever led the police anywhere to a missing persons body for example, id loved to be told otherwise on this though.

however as I said yesterday there has been other stuff happened that has certainly made me question my beliefs in the supernatural etc , I don't want to go into full details but 2 people that have came forward have daughters, - one were a set of twins too , who their parents would hear them talk to people in their room at night , and when they asked the next day the kids would say who they were talking to .. and needless to say in both cases it was people deceased and who are related to this case.

In the case of the twins they told us a story they said their little girls told them that matches exactly our theory of what has happened to Mary , and it is something that we haven't made public at all.. so these girls - now teenagers but still adamant of what happened - had no way of knowing this , in fact it would have been over a decade ago this happened, before we really figured out this theory ourselves & these kids and their parents weren't in touch with us till recently .. so throughout the mountain of crackpot spiritualists and crank messages we have been getting etc just these 2 stories have really stood out as they are both very similar and from people actually in 2 different countries .

Id just like to clarify that this in no way is part of what we would term evidence or anything close to it.. but it does just make even a skeptic like me wonder.

are psychics still contacting you?

oranbhoy67 · 26-07-2016 08:42PM

jenny smith wrote: »

Would dogs, not just cadaver dogs, not be attracted to any burial site? Would there still be a scent there even though its only bones presumably and surely dogs roaming around such a rural area

Who is the man known to Mary who followed sergeant Collins to Fenor on the way to Bundoran. Collins got into his car. He cried, said he knew the girls and was fond of them.The man said he had children the same age and how he felt about Mary's disappearance

To Collins three possible scenarios he said the last i.e murder. Was he further questioned?

this man was a close relation of who we think is the man responsible , he also said he was there on behalf of the rest his family, what id like to know is why he wasn't spoken to in the presence of another Gardai & recorded or had his statement taken down ??

AFAIK this person and the rest of his family have done a complete about turn now since and have closed ranks.

oranbhoy67 · 26-07-2016 08:45PM

jenny smith wrote: »

are psychics still contacting you?

Ive not had psychics as such ( that I'm aware off) contact me but i have had a lot of people saying she is buried here and buried there,due to their feelings.. all of which I keep a note off just incase and i welcome that im sure that even though some of these people have to be wrong at least they are still trying to help.

I also have a lot of people say to me that their late father or mother dreamed of Mary and what happened to her. is this a common Irish thing?

oranbhoy67 · 26-07-2016 08:51PM

jenny smith wrote: »

oh my god i hope i don't see where this is going

I have the above poster on my ignore list for repeatedly grilling me on questions i either couldn't answer or did and were ignored and asked again but I can see his post thru your reply.. what he is hinting at is something that someone told me their late dad used to dream had happened to Mary..its an awful thought but one that cant be discounted, he has cows I do know that , I don't know what he keeps at his own place,

whoever has Mary has had 40 years to do whatever they want with the body which is really the scary part

oranbhoy67 · 26-07-2016 08:59PM

jenny smith wrote: »

Would dogs, not just cadaver dogs, not be attracted to any burial site? Would there still be a scent there even though its only bones presumably and surely dogs roaming around such a rural area

Who is the man known to Mary who followed sergeant Collins to Fenor on the way to Bundoran. Collins got into his car. He cried, said he knew the girls and was fond of them.The man said he had children the same age and how he felt about Mary's disappearance

To Collins three possible scenarios he said the last i.e murder. Was he further questioned?

the guy whose dog found scent at the Maddie McCann site is someone I personally would love to get on board he has a dog trained in smelling blood and one trained in sniffing out bones.. supposedly even bones fro thousands of years ago.. its something i would like to push for , I think he is high in demand and quite expensive so I dont know the logisitcs of getting him over but id rather the gardai gave him free reign in the Area for a day or two and see what him and his dog(s) come up with rather than sending JCBs in to dig up a field that has already been dug before as they are doing now

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 09:01PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

this man was a close relation of who we think is the man responsible , he also said he was there on behalf of the rest his family, what id like to know is why he wasn't spoken to in the presence of another Gardai & recorded or had his statement taken down ??

AFAIK this person and the rest of his family have done a complete about turn now since and have closed ranks.

isn't that Collins responsibility? was he asked about it

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 09:04PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

the guy whose dog found scent at the Maddie McCann site is someone I personally would love to get on board he has a dog trained in smelling blood and one trained in sniffing out bones.. supposedly even bones fro thousands of years ago.. its something i would like to push for , I think he is high in demand and quite expensive so I dont know the logisitcs of getting him over but id rather the gardai gave him free reign in the Area for a day or two and see what him and his dog(s) come up with rather than sending JCBs in to dig up a field that has already been dug before as they are doing now

I was not impressed with him i the Maddie case. he had to keep calling the dogs back to the car in the carpark. theywere all over the place sniffing walls way away from it

bagels · 26-07-2016 09:17PM

jenny smith wrote: »

I was not impressed with him i the Maddie case. he had to keep calling the dogs back to the car in the carpark. theywere all over the place sniffing walls way away from it

The FBI employed him shortly after that. I don't know how that turned out though.

Going Forward · 26-07-2016 09:24PM

jenny smith wrote: »

I don't know it is confusing. He said he put the three questions to the suspect when the suspect was at the garda station when the psychic was there. But he does not say who the person in the car was that he also put the three questions to, only he knew the girls had children of his own etc. so the person in the car may have been a witness

So we're unsure if he had two suspects.

I think we've discussed part of that before.

The part I had overlooked until now was that he got the witness into the station after the reaction of the psychic.

And he seemed fairly convinced he had the person responsible.

Can you tell or not if that was the first time he had questioned that person?

I remember I said before I thought there was no other mention of him putting the 3 questions to anyone else, but now I see it might be to the same person more than once or to a witness.

It can't be that hard to figure what he was saying.

It actually could have been made a lot clearer.

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 09:28PM

bagels wrote: »

The FBI employed him shortly after that. I don't know how that turned out though.

http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.ae/2012/10/expert-testifies-that-cadaver-dog-gave.html

tayto lover · 26-07-2016 10:20PM

I wouldn't pay much attention to what psychics say. Bunch of chancers. They could send you in the wrong direction if you give them much heed.

Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

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