Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

oranbhoy67 · 25-07-2016 02:19PM

This is a map I created myself after being awake for about 48 hours

*Please note i got the tree cutters position wrong he was actually down not to far from where the fishermen were but on the other side of the road just up from the McCawley house *
I will work on editing it now

Macca07 · 25-07-2016 02:45PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

This is a map I created myself after being awake for about 48 hours

*Please note i got the tree cutters position wrong he was actually down not to far from where the fishermen were but on the other side of the road just up from the McCawley house *

Is it quicker to walk than drive the road?

oranbhoy67 · 25-07-2016 03:37PM

Macca07 wrote: »

Is it quicker to walk than drive the road?

I honestly couldn't tell you, at a guess - drive would be quicker

oranbhoy67 · 25-07-2016 03:42PM

Fianna Fáil Justice Spokesperson Jim O'Callaghan being questioned on the Mary Boyle case at the open Q&A at the Mcgill summer School in glenties on Friday , the live webcast cut of as soon as Marys case was mentioned so this rather poor quality phone camera footage is the only video available at the moment but the audio is clear enough, I think he makes very valid points RE the political parties courting of Mairia Cahill - someone who has made some disgusting comments on the case since.

jenny smith · 25-07-2016 05:55PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

also the examiner on Saturday was an opinion piece - an opinion that we and anyone else who believes marys twin is a conspiracy nut / shinner or both and the Documentary contained nothing but hearsay .. well did he expect the documentary to lay out all the evidence we have on a table and therefore potentially prejudice any trial ??
No the documentary was quite obviously put out to try and inform the viewing public as much as it could to who they think is responsible and also put out the ex-gardai's allegations of political interference and air their worries that the Gardai never took the man in for serious questioning.

he was also banging on about Social Media , well if Traditional Media was doing its job correctly then people wouldn't be taking to social media to vent their absolute frustration at this case.

When is RTE or the likes going to do a really serious report into this , do these latest allegations not warrant something from them at least??

Everything here is just someone's opinion so the examiner guy is entitled to his,a lot of which I agree with, there was a lot of her say in the doc. It would not stand up in court. Don't think it was fair to say Superintendent Dom Murray had been complained about on other issues as they are not relevant to this case. If she had evidence Superintendent Dom Murray had been complained about re Mary Boyle she should have given it.

When is RTE or the likes going to do a really serious report into this , do these latest allegations not warrant something from them at least??

what can RTE say that Gemma can't? They would be constrained too as they cannot, as you say "expect the documentary to lay out all the evidence we have on a table and therefore potentially prejudice any trial ?" RTE can't prejudice a trial either

If traditional Media was doing its job correctly then people wouldn't be taking to social media to vent their absolute frustration at this case.

traditional media cannot prejudice a trial either and it is not really their job to investigate crime

There seems to be a catch 22 about this inability to " lay out all the evidence we have on a table and therefore potentially prejudice any trial." If Gemma cannot do it it is no use blaming others who won't. Margo said on Tipp FM they did not care about a trial. She said if they find the body they would walk away because the suspect had had his life and was too old to have a trial make much difference , or similar words.Podcast up now http://tippfm.podomatic.com/entry/2016-07-25T07_42_11-07_00 about 50 seconds in

oranbhoy67 · 25-07-2016 06:18PM

jenny smith wrote: »

Everything here is just someone's opinion so the examiner guy is entitled to his,a lot of which I agree with, there was a lot of her say in the doc. It would not stand up in court. Don't think it was fair to say Superintendent Dom Murray had been complained about on other issues as they are not relevant to this case. If she had evidence Superintendent Dom Murray had been complained about re Mary Boyle she should have given it.

what can RTE say that Gemma can't? They would be constrained too as they cannot, as you say "expect the documentary to lay out all the evidence we have on a table and therefore potentially prejudice any trial ?" RTE can't prejudice a trial either
traditional media cannot prejudice a trial either and it is not really their job to investigate crime

There seems to be a catch 22 about this inability to " lay out all the evidence we have on a table and therefore potentially prejudice any trial." If Gemma cannot do it it is no use blaming others who won't. Margo said on Tipp FM they did not care about a trial. She said if they find the body they would walk away because the suspect had had his life and was too old to have a trial make much difference , or similar words.Podcast up now http://tippfm.podomatic.com/entry/2016-07-25T07_42_11-07_00 about 50 seconds in

theres evidence that Dom Murrays and Sean Mceniffs relationship had been complained about so I would say its relevant

For a start RTE would have an instantly bigger audience and you'd imagine a much bigger team & budget to work on the documentary and it wouldn't have the flaws that are pointed out here and elsewhere, maybe even Marys mother would put her point across and others who refused to speak to Gemma .

Its not the Medias job to investigate Crime ?? its not their job to prosecute but investigating crime as well as possible corruption is one of the most important things about having a free media , Veronica Guerin died investigating crime.

you say "If Gemma cannot do it it is no use blaming others who won't??" As i said above Gemma is one woman, the newspapers and TV companies have teams who could and should be investigating this, I will blame them , they paid lip service last week and now its all went quiet again.

And on the last point thats Margos opinion and she is entitled to it , mines would be different id like to see all guilty parties prosecuted including those who interfered and covered up , age should be no barrier to Justice unless in extreme cases ie dementia or a terminal illness imo , but at the end of the day should the authorities manage to uncover what has happened that wouldn't be my, yours or indeed margos job to determine who should and who shouldnt face prosecution .

jenny smith · 25-07-2016 09:04PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

theres evidence that Dom Murrays and Sean Mceniffs relationship had been complained about so I would say its relevant

For a start RTE would have an instantly bigger audience and you'd imagine a much bigger team & budget to work on the documentary and it wouldn't have the flaws that are pointed out here and elsewhere, maybe even Marys mother would put her point across and others who refused to speak to Gemma .

Its not the Medias job to investigate Crime ?? its not their job to prosecute but investigating crime as well as possible corruption is one of the most important things about having a free media , Veronica Guerin died investigating crime.

you say "If Gemma cannot do it it is no use blaming others who won't??" As i said above Gemma is one woman, the newspapers and TV companies have teams who could and should be investigating this, I will blame them , they paid lip service last week and now its all went quiet again.

And on the last point thats Margos opinion and she is entitled to it , mines would be different id like to see all guilty parties prosecuted including those who interfered and covered up , age should be no barrier to Justice unless in extreme cases ie dementia or a terminal illness imo , but at the end of the day should the authorities manage to uncover what has happened that wouldn't be my, yours or indeed margos job to determine who should and who shouldnt face prosecution .

theres evidence that Dom Murrays and Sean Mceniffs relationship had been complained about so I would say its relevant

in relation to mary boyle? is that in the documentary?

For a start RTE would have an instantly bigger audience and you'd imagine a much bigger team & budget to work on the documentary and it wouldn't have the flaws that are pointed out here and elsewhere, maybe even Marys mother would put her point across and others who refused to speak to Gemma .

And they will still be constrained by legal problem. Possibvly more so. They are more likley to get sued than gemma who complains about having to pay 13k for archive. RTE would be a big target for a defamation case. Maybe Mary's mother or the others who refused Gemma would not talk to RTE. Listening to her on radio i doubt it

you say "If Gemma cannot do it it is no use blaming others who won't??" As i said above Gemma is one woman, the newspapers and TV companies have teams who could and should be investigating this, I will blame them , they paid lip service last week and now its all went quiet again.

if no one will talk to them how can they. Margo will and will say "I have no evidence only what I know"

Its not the Medias job to investigate Crime ?? its not their job to prosecute but investigating crime as well as possible corruption is one of the most important things about having a free media , Veronica Guerin died investigating crime

i disagree. journalists have no power to demand answers. If they go to a door they can be told go and nothing can be done. They can report if people talk say like whistleblowers. No one seems to be talking.Someone not co operating with garda could be prosecuted.Not so a journalist. Veronica Guerin was playing at being a crimefighter

And on the last point thats Margos opinion and she is entitled to it , mines would be different id like to see all guilty parties prosecuted including those who interfered and covered up , age should be no barrier to Justice unless in extreme cases ie dementia or a terminal illness imo , but at the end of the day should the authorities manage to uncover what has happened that wouldn't be my, yours or indeed margos job to determine who should and who shouldnt face prosecution

i never said it would be mine only reported what margo said.

Basically there is a stalemate. The media cannot tell what they know in case it harms a prosecution and if they cannot tell it seems pointless RTE making a documentary. It can only repeat what Gemma said

oranbhoy67 · 25-07-2016 09:50PM

jenny smith wrote: »

in relation to mary boyle? is that in the documentary? you know it isnt, perhaps something for another investigative journalist to find out?

And they will still be constrained by legal problem. Possibly more so. They are more likley to get sued than gemma who complains about having to pay 13k for archive. RTE would be a big target for a defamation case. Maybe Mary's mother or the others who refused Gemma would not talk to RTE. Listening to her on radio i doubt it
and Silence often says everything, she has spoke to RTE plenty of times before , why not again

if no one will talk to them how can they. Margo will and will say "I have no evidence only what I know"
and what if Margo knows is very damming? For example would you tell a child abuse victim from the 70s now an adult not to report anything to the police now as they have no evidence?

i disagree. journalists have no power to demand answers. If they go to a door they can be told go and nothing can be done. They can report if people talk say like whistleblowers. No one seems to be talking.Someone not co operating with garda could be prosecuted.Not so a journalist. Veronica Guerin was playing at being a crimefighter
No one is taking cos only one person has been doing any digging apart from Mick O Toole who spoke to the biggeset red heriing ever but all publicity is good publicity
i never said it would be mine only reported what margo said.
I never said it neither I meant everyones and Margos point of view on someone being prosecuted holds the same weight legally as anyones ie none
there is a stalemate. The media cannot tell what they know in case it harms a prosecution and if they cannot tell it seems pointless RTE making a documentary. It can only repeat what Gemma said
So just leave it be is that what you think ? that the work done by one woman with help from family members and witnesses cant possibly be bettered by the efforts of any of the national press ..all it takes if for one decent reporter to find one golden nugget of information and this whole case could be done.

replies in bold

jenny smith · 25-07-2016 10:09PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

replies in bold

are you saying theres evidence that Dom Murrays and Sean Mceniffs relationship had been complained about in relation to mary boyle?

Giacomo McGubbin · 25-07-2016 10:22PM

In my humble opinion, the Campaign has to watch out for a couple of things :

There's a catch 22 with the recent political allegations :
- The political collusion allegations could end up distracting from the real aim, finding Mary, and turn into a complicated political football game. People close to the case who might be able to help with further info might avoid doing so, for fear of looking like they are taking political sides, or being in a political game for the sake it, or for fear of being used as journalists fodder.
- At the same time the political interference allegations have given the case great publicity again, there is just a risk that the campaign might be branded as crying political wolf once too often and the truth gets lost in the sensationalism.

- I also think, as hard as it may be, the campaign should try to heal the rift, even a little, between the daughter and mother. Both of them have valid points and opinions, both of them have made mistakes in what they have said to the media, or more a case of the way they said it. And who wouldn't when under all the pressure they both are. They should be encouraged to agree to disagree on some points, and I'm sure they can agree they both want the same thing. To find out where Mary is above anything else.

Oranbhoy, having read through the whole thread, I believe your heart is in the right place, even though I think you've made some mistakes, as we all do. I don't think the main suspect is ever going to crack with anything agressive or in public. As a guard alluded to, I think he might cave under a softer, but constant approach, perhaps from all the cousins / relatives you can think of, both as a group and singularly. Even if these approaches have to be made 100 times more. If I were them I'd take the constant approach with him that there is only a few years left to find out for once and for all where Mary is before it's too late, and tell him to forget about the politics and all the other crap. Anything agressive or hateful though, and he's just going to clam up for ever.

Also I the Postman that was recently interviewed, mentioned the sniffer dog that during the search in 77, kept stopping at the same spot just down the lane from the house, but that this was never properly followed up at the time. Has this spot ever been properly excavated by people with the proper knowlege and experience of such digs, if not, obviously it should be.

None of these suggestions might be much good, but just some food for thought I think is worth at least considering. Since the documentary, I can't stop thinking about that poor wee girl and the awful effect it's had on an entire family and locality for over 39 years.

Muahahaha · 25-07-2016 10:47PM

Just on the attempts to locate Marys remains- is there a device/technology on the market that can detect bones underground without actually having to dig? Kind of like a metal detector for bones?

oranbhoy67 · 25-07-2016 11:14PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just on the attempts to locate Marys remains- is there a device/technology on the market that can detect bones underground without actually having to dig? Kind of like a metal detector for bones?

yeah there's a company called scantech that has such technology. AFAIK they look for anomalies in the land

Tzar Chasm · 25-07-2016 11:15PM

Well, geophysics, like they use on time team, might locate the grave site, it wouldnt be defenitive for identifying what an object was, but it could at least narrow down the location,

oranbhoy67 · 25-07-2016 11:18PM

jenny smith wrote: »

are you saying theres evidence that Dom Murrays and Sean Mceniffs relationship had been complained about in relation to mary boyle?

I dont know exactly what those rank and file Gardai reported to their seniors to in Dublin about that relationship , the whole story seemed to get hushed up after legal threats.

this would be something that would be great for an investigative reporter to look into, they may find something they may not but id like them to try anyway .

Joeseph Balls · 25-07-2016 11:20PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just on the attempts to locate Marys remains- is there a device/technology on the market that can detect bones underground without actually having to dig? Kind of like a metal detector for bones?

Geo phys can show disruptions in the ground. its used by archaeologists. kind of like an xray showing shadows etc. How effective it would be at showing something a childs size accurately i cannot say. One for the archaeoligy forum. Geo phys has come a long way in recent years though.

Muahahaha · 25-07-2016 11:39PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

yeah there's a company called scantech that has such technology. AFAIK they look for anomalies in the land

Quite expensive presumably? Is there specific sites that family members believe might unlock this by scanning? If so would crowdfunding to get it done be an option?

Satriale · 25-07-2016 11:42PM

Speaking of dogs, i was listening to a Podcast recently called "Somebody Knows something" about the disappearance of a 5 year old boy in 1972(Adrian MacNaughten). A couple of episodes were about using cadaver dogs to search for the 44 year old body. Very interesting stuff, i wonder if there have ever been cadaver dogs used for this case.

oranbhoy67 · 26-07-2016 12:39AM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Quite expensive presumably? Is there specific sites that family members believe might unlock this by scanning? If so would crowdfunding to get it done be an option?

I know the Sunday world sponsored it before , that was the dig the gardai ended up taking over without warning for one day and tore up the field with a JCB

I think there's talk of the company donating their work this time but I can't 100% certain & if not then I think crowdfunding is made for that sort of thing .

oranbhoy67 · 26-07-2016 12:40AM

Satriale wrote: »

Speaking of dogs, i was listening to a Podcast recently called "Somebody Knows something" about the disappearance of a 5 year old boy in 1972(Adrian MacNaughten). A couple of episodes were about using cadaver dogs to search for the 44 year old body. Very interesting stuff, i wonder if there have ever been cadaver dogs used for this case.

I dont think actual Cadaver dogs have been used and again its something that we are looking at , the guy involved in the Maddie McCann case is very highly thought off so that would certainly be an option

Going Forward · 26-07-2016 02:30AM

Gemma O'Doherty has now run out of steam.

That's understandable.

This is the reality. It was going to happen sooner or later, she's only human.

She gave it a good shot.

Threw everything at it.

But no response, bar a denial by two politicians.

One short and sweet and one particularly laboured.

They're both irrelevant as it happens.

No updates, nothing at all has become of the documentary, bar on line speculation, the majority of which can attributed to supporters of Sinn Fein according to Michael Clifford, a reporter for the Irish Examiner.

Michale O'Toole came across someone who swears the gardai knobbled his staements, twice, and nothing is said.

No one cares to ask why, except, according to Mick Clifford, Sinn Fein supporters.

Michael O'Toole publishes news of a new probe, and it's dismissed by gardai.

So, where to from here.

Oranboy71 has been advised to get legal advice, that's good advice, but, it costs money.

He's also been advised to bring any new evidence somewhere.

I asked the person, who's bona fides I do not question, where should he bring it and there's been no response.

No one knows where to go or what to do from here.

Everything is still as it was 39 years ago.

In spite of a documentary and it's viewers who for some reason were fit to be on the tail end of disparaging remarks from Mick Clifford, a journalist who failed to see the irony that it was the documentary in the first place which made him say something in the first place, just in case some other mainstream print "journalist" got in ahead of him.

Nothing changes. Every thing is as it was.

The three theories of what happened to the child have never been professionally examined. No arrests, no particular effort being displayed, no sense of urgency.

No comment.

There was always just two theories. Two official scenarios suggested.

Two.

The child grew up, alive, into the portrait the cops still publish, or she fell into a hole on the way back to the house.

Two possibilities.

I have excluded the possibility of her being picked up by aliens from outer space for obvious reasons.

I've been thinking since about how the media is covering this, the section of the media that is.

Michael O'Toole, if your still following the thread, the gardai have dismissed the news you published, that there's a new "probe" underway.

According to them the current investigation is ongoing, since 2011.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/garda-confirm-mary-boyle-cold-case-review-34878309.html

What's your reaction to that?

It looks like some lackey in the gaurds blurted out something about a new probe to you.

Which you duly published under the attention-grabbing banner headline:

"Cold Case Exclusive, finished off with COLD CASE COPS LAUNCH MARY PROBE"

And that's not a criticism directed at you, because you had the wisdom to ask the gardai who appear to be suffering from a lethargic reaction to this case, for a response to O'Doherty's documentary.

And you got the story out there again, so as Ive said down-thread, kudos where it is due.

It's directed to the Independent which ran the dismissive counter-story.

But also, what's the gardai's reaction to your 2nd day of Mary Boyle excusives, your interviewee's explosive claims that his statements were faked?

The silence on that claim from the cops is deafening.

Have you had any response?

I know that it's a fast paced profession but I genuinely think a reaction from the gardai about this Red VW is essential.

Have you sought one and if so what did they say?

BigCon · 26-07-2016 02:51AM

Regarding a search for a body, surely if whoever was responsible for her disappearance lives in the locality as has been suggested here, then as gruesome as it may be, he would have had plenty of time in the 36 years since her disappearance to have moved the remains elsewhere or destroyed them altogether (which is probably what anyone who had committed such a crime would do)?

oranbhoy67 · 26-07-2016 03:06AM

BigCon wrote: »

Regarding a search for a body, surely if whoever was responsible for her disappearance lives in the locality as has been suggested here, then as gruesome as it may be, he would have had plenty of time in the 36 years since her disappearance to have moved the remains elsewhere or destroyed them altogether (which is probably what anyone who had committed such a crime would do)?

yeah it is a real fear that we have sadly.

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 07:35AM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

I dont know exactly what those rank and file Gardai reported to their seniors to in Dublin about that relationship , the whole story seemed to get hushed up after legal threats.

this would be something that would be great for an investigative reporter to look into, they may find something they may not but id like them to try anyway .

S then you don't know which is my point it should not hvae been in the doc bout other complaints as it was trying to infer a connection. if he was alive she would possibly be sued.

Stepping Stone · 26-07-2016 09:57AM

Going Forward wrote: »

Oranboy71 has been advised to get legal advice, that's good advice, but, it costs money.

He's also been advised to bring any new evidence somewhere.

I asked the person, who's bona fides I do not question, where should he bring it and there's been no response.

I have been busy. An IT issue is giving me 5 mins at work to reply.

My advice is this. Approach a solicitor, explain that you cannot afford to pay for legal advice but you need some and they should be able to advise you. Citizens advice do free legal aid sessions. There are ways and means.

Since Oranbhoy lives in Letterkenny, I would start there with reporting it to the Gardai. He can travel wherever he wants and report it...West Cork, Offaly, wherever. If he has gotten some legal advice, then he will be better placed to understand what to ask for afterwards relating to what was done with the information. Most Gardai are incredibly busy, but if you know what you are looking for in terms of information, then you will get it.

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 10:13AM

Stepping Stone wrote: »

I have been busy. An IT issue is giving me 5 mins at work to reply.

My advice is this. Approach a solicitor, explain that you cannot afford to pay for legal advice but you need some and they should be able to advise you. Citizens advice do free legal aid sessions. There are ways and means.

Since Oranbhoy lives in Letterkenny, I would start there with reporting it to the Gardai. He can travel wherever he wants and report it...West Cork, Offaly, wherever. If he has gotten some legal advice, then he will be better placed to understand what to ask for afterwards relating to what was done with the information. Most Gardai are incredibly busy, but if you know what you are looking for in terms of information, then you will get it.

if it were me i would make a written complaint to the garda commissioner about A the situation and B the garda who did not return his call. waste of time making phone calls no records of them and the person called can claim the conversation was different

Going Forward · 26-07-2016 10:23AM

jenny smith wrote: »

if it were me i would make a written complaint to the garda commissioner about A the situation and B the garda who did not return his call. waste of time making phone calls no records of them and the person called can claim the conversation was different

He'll need the legal advice mentioned to make his letter have any impact.

If not it's going to end up on the bottom of a file.

Going Forward · 26-07-2016 11:11AM

Stepping Stone wrote: »

I have been busy. An IT issue is giving me 5 mins at work to reply.

My advice is this. Approach a solicitor, explain that you cannot afford to pay for legal advice but you need some and they should be able to advise you. Citizens advice do free legal aid sessions. There are ways and means.

Since Oranbhoy lives in Letterkenny, I would start there with reporting it to the Gardai. He can travel wherever he wants and report it...West Cork, Offaly, wherever. If he has gotten some legal advice, then he will be better placed to understand what to ask for afterwards relating to what was done with the information. Most Gardai are incredibly busy, but if you know what you are looking for in terms of information, then you will get it.

The legal advice, him getting some is key.

And good advice.

Even with it I'm doubting any garda member anywhere is going to assume "ownership" of this case, but I agree it's probably the only sensible way forward at this stage.

Slight possibility though that if that happens he may have grounds for his own GSOC complaint, but only if he goes by the book 100%.

Otherwise it's round and round in circles forever.

Muahahaha · 26-07-2016 11:27AM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

I dont think actual Cadaver dogs have been used and again its something that we are looking at , the guy involved in the Maddie McCann case is very highly thought off so that would certainly be an option

Im guessing a cadaver dog would be able to sniff several acres of land in a day, it could be a good option and worth exploring. If there was a find it would certainly blow this case wide open from a missing person case to something entirely different, it would force people to act.

jenny smith · 26-07-2016 11:28AM

Going Forward wrote: »

The legal advice, him getting some is key.

And good advice.

Even with it I'm doubting any garda member anywhere is going to assume "ownership" of this case, but I agree it's probably the only sensible way forward at this stage.

Slight possibility though that if that happens he may have grounds for his own GSOC complaint, but only if he goes by the book 100%.

Otherwise it's round and round in circles forever.

the commissioner has ownership of all cases ultimate responsibility is with her

He'll need the legal advice mentioned to make his letter have any impact.

If not it's going to end up on the bottom of a file.

maybe

Muahahaha · 26-07-2016 11:39AM

jenny smith wrote: »

if it were me i would make a written complaint to the garda commissioner about A the situation and B the garda who did not return his call. waste of time making phone calls no records of them and the person called can claim the conversation was different

Just on this oranbhoy - the Garda detectives have email- if you are following up progress with them it is always better to deal by email rather than phone call, that way you have records of what was said and whats being done.

The format for Garda email addresses is firstname.lastname@garda.ie
If the detective is giving you the runabout then email him every 7 days for three weeks. If no reply then at least you have proof that youre not getting any response and ask questions as to why.

Finally this website allows you to be certain that an email address actually exists- its sends a test email to confirm its a live email address
http://verify-email.org/

Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

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