Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Dublin Marathon 2016 - Mentored Novices Thread

16869717374209

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭kin9pin


    I think the strides are run towards the end of your run. I was planning to do the first one after around 4.5-5 miles, fully recover then repeat etc. followed by the easy run home.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭aquinn


    The condensed version:

    A stride should:
    - last about 8 seconds
    - be a full controlled effort
    - never go longer than 10 seconds
    - be up a hill or on the flat


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭paddydriver


    Thanks All.. so just when we are at our weakest, at the end of the run, we gotta try kill ourselves some more...:eek::D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 921 ✭✭✭benjamin d


    It's probably been asked many times but is it not recommended to run the full marathon distance in training? I've not seen it in any plans but I'd like to get a full distance run in during training to put my mind at ease that I'll be comfortable on the day? It would be a long way out from DCM, maybe early September.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 916 ✭✭✭JMSE


    @ Antodoran, sounds like what happened me last year , including the spreading to the other knee. Go to a Physio who knows running injuries, other physios might not get it right. IF it's what I had (I.T. Band) then you can get it sorted and carry on with training. I lost way too much time last year as a novice and it messed up the marathon


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭aquinn


    benjamin d wrote: »
    It's probably been asked many times but is it not recommended to run the full marathon distance in training? I've not seen it in any plans but I'd like to get a full distance run in during training to put my mind at ease that I'll be comfortable on the day? It would be a long way out from DCM, maybe early September.

    For Novices the plans have 20 mile runs and no farther. If properly trained for the day you'll be ok with training and crowds to cover the balance. The majority of plans I believe would get you to 22 miles but no, the distance wouldn't be covered in training. Please don't attempt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 921 ✭✭✭benjamin d


    aquinn wrote: »
    For Novices the plans have 20 mile runs and no farther. If properly trained for the day you'll be ok with training and crowds to cover the balance. The majority of plans I believe would get you to 22 miles but no, the distance wouldn't be covered in training. Please don't attempt.

    Cheers for that. Can I ask why? I would've thought that 8 weeks or more from the marathon would be plenty of recovery time. I would consider myself an intermediate runner fwiw, I've done a few half marathon distances and have plenty of running under my belt as a base for a marathon plan, and I'd be hoping for sub 3.30 on the day.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭aquinn


    benjamin d wrote: »
    Cheers for that. Can I ask why? I would've thought that 8 weeks or more from the marathon would be plenty of recovery time. I would consider myself an intermediate runner fwiw, I've done a few half marathon distances and have plenty of running under my belt as a base for a marathon plan, and I'd be hoping for sub 3.30 on the day.

    Ooooooh, what makes you think you can do a 3:30? Are you currently following one of our training plans? Are you going to officially join us and fill out the list of questions on the front page?

    Few reasons in my opinion:
    It's not necessary
    Exhaustion
    Could lead to a massive jump in mileage, are you covering 24 miles the previous week?
    Some school of thoughts that no run needs to be over 3 hours.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,911 ✭✭✭tailgunner


    I don't think it's about recovering in time for the marathon itself.

    If you're targeting sub-3:30 on the day, I'm guessing your long-run pace is around a 9 minute mile or so? To cover the full distance in a training run at that pace, you'd likely be running for over four hours, and after an effort like that, you'd find it very difficult to recover sufficiently for your mid-week running, and even the following weekend's long run.

    You get most of the physiological stimulus from your long run between 90 minutes and 2:30. Apart from the psychological benefit, it's not really worth running for more than three hours, as the recovery time you need starts to outweigh any additional physical benefits. That's why most generic plans max out at 20 miles, or maybe 22 for faster runners.

    To be honest, as someone who's targeting a sub-4 marathon, I'm pretty worried about doing a 20 mile long run, because it'll take me well over three hours. The idea of going longer again is terrifying!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,916 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    benjamin d wrote: »
    Cheers for that. Can I ask why? I would've thought that 8 weeks or more from the marathon would be plenty of recovery time. I would consider myself an intermediate runner fwiw, I've done a few half marathon distances and have plenty of running under my belt as a base for a marathon plan, and I'd be hoping for sub 3.30 on the day.

    The main reason is that it doesn't have any benefit, and anything that does no benefit has no place in any decent plan. Some plans cap the long run at 2.5 hours, on the assumption that anything longer and your form deteriorates to the point that you are far more likely to injure yourself than gain a benefit.

    Psychologically, the first marathon is always difficult for precisely the reason you mention - uncertainty that you can go the distance. That's what also makes the first one so special, assuming you complete.

    Long runs are hard on the system, especially during the first marathon cycle. You need time in your feet, but not too much, because you are riding that thin line between adaptation and exhaustion. You don't want to cross that line.

    It will all become clearer on the big day, and afterwards. Until then, have faith and trust the plan.

    Edit: crossed with above two posts.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 921 ✭✭✭benjamin d


    Thanks for all the replies everyone - "hoping" was the operative word in my comment above! My HM times and my general running would point towards creeping in under 3.30, which is why I was wondering about doing a training 'tester' to see if it holds up. But it looks like it's not advised so I'll avoid. It's kind of hard to adjust to that thinking when 5 and 10k training usually call for long runs well over the race distance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    Thanks All.. so just when we are at our weakest, at the end of the run, we gotta try kill ourselves some more...:eek::D

    :D:D

    Just to clarify, PD, strides should not be mistaken for sprints or speed intervals. They are not about killing yourself or going all out. They should be run at a fast but controlled pace. The focus should be on good form and leg turnover. Their purpose is to help maintain and improve form not to promote fatigue or develop anaerobic capacity.....ENJOY!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭paddydriver


    FBOT01 wrote: »
    :D:D

    Just to clarify, PD, strides should not be mistaken for sprints or speed intervals. They are not about killing yourself or going all out. They should be run at a fast but controlled pace. The focus should be on good form and leg turnover. Their purpose is to help maintain and improve form not to promote fatigue or develop anaerobic capacity.....ENJOY!!!

    Good stuff.. Thanks. That's what I was looking for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,911 ✭✭✭tailgunner


    benjamin d wrote: »
    It's kind of hard to adjust to that thinking when 5 and 10k training usually call for long runs well over the race distance.

    Despite all the research I've done on the subject myself, I can't adjust my thinking either.

    I just cannot get my head around how running 20 miles slowly is supposed to be enough to make 26.2 miles at a faster pace become even remotely possible.

    But I'm choosing to stop trying to get my head around the science and start believing in whatever witchcraft/voodoo magic is really happening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    tailgunner wrote: »
    Despite all the research I've done on the subject myself, I can't adjust my thinking either.

    I just cannot get my head around how running 20 miles slowly is supposed to be enough to make 26.2 miles at a faster pace become even remotely possible.

    But I'm choosing to stop trying to get my head around the science and start believing in whatever witchcraft/voodoo magic is really happening.

    I'm the same but I try to rationalise it as "What I think of as easy running is becoming objectively further / faster, so my limit must also be getting further / faster".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭spaceylou


    I might be plagiarising someone here but we just gotta "trust the plan".

    In October our legs will be fresh after tapering, we'll have 18 weeks of training with lots of specific workouts under our belts, and the adrenaline, support and event magic will get us through that extra few miles.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 301 ✭✭FITZA


    benjamin d wrote: »
    Thanks for all the replies everyone - "hoping" was the operative word in my comment above! My HM times and my general running would point towards creeping in under 3.30, which is why I was wondering about doing a training 'tester' to see if it holds up. But it looks like it's not advised so I'll avoid. It's kind of hard to adjust to that thinking when 5 and 10k training usually call for long runs well over the race distance.

    Something that was said to me before when I was wondering the same as you benjamin d .... 'they don't climb Everest when training to climbing Everest' :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,916 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Benjamin, You can't run 26.2 miles at your MP until your body has adapted to being capable of doing that. Adaptation happens during recovery from training, not during it. You run your last 20 or 22 miler a few weeks out, the adaptation happens during the taper, and whoosh, there you go on the day, but not before. Peak too early (or run your LRs too long and fast) and you leave your marathon on the training ground.

    By the way, if your HM time is indicating a 3:30 marathon, I would say train with that as your MP, but bearing in mind that it is an ambitious target and may have to be adjusted. There are always one or two novices who do that kind of time or better; no reason (with good training) you can't be one of them. Where and when was the HM and what time did you run?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    Question:

    I'm on the myasics plan and I have scheduled in to do the Rock and Roll HM on the 7th of August.. My plan B is to run the DCM in 4 hours (Plan A is 4hr20 - I know that's backwards!) Therefore, by going by some prediction methods I should be doing a HM at 1:50 - so, should I be aiming for 1:50 for this or as its a good few weeks away from DCM should I just aim for sub 2 hours?

    FWIW - myasics had me running 21km on the weekend in 2 hours and 33 seconds.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,916 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    7th August is too far out from DCM to be particularly relevant. Run it at whatever HM pace your current fitness (based on a recent race) predicts. If no recent race, run it at whatever HM pace is indicated by your current training MP. No point in just hoping you'll be in 4-hour shape in Oct (plan A) and trying to run an equivalent HM (1:50ish) in 2 weeks' time.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    Murph_D wrote: »
    7th August is too far out from DCM to be particularly relevant. Run it at whatever HM pace your current fitness (based on a recent race) predicts. If no recent race, run it at whatever HM pace is indicated by your current training MP. No point in just hoping you'll be in 4-hour shape in Oct (plan A) and trying to run an equivalent HM (1:50ish) in 2 weeks' time.

    Cool - thats 5.38/km (9.04/m) which will be 1hr58


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭Bluesquare


    Murph_D wrote: »
    7th August is too far out from DCM to be particularly relevant. Run it at whatever HM pace your current fitness (based on a recent race) predicts. If no recent race, run it at whatever HM pace is indicated by your current training MP. No point in just hoping you'll be in 4-hour shape in Oct (plan A) and trying to run an equivalent HM (1:50ish) in 2 weeks' time.

    Hi Murph

    How far out does a HM need to be so that it offers a good prediction ? Would the R&R be relevant for Berlin or would the ten miler race series work better ?

    Thanks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭Myles Splitz


    Following up on the previous question;

    With marathon training yes it does seem to break the general rules of long runs double the distance of the event however there are very good reasons for this.

    Plenty of research has been done over the last 30-40 years to show that the optimum benefits to be got aerobically from a long run generally tend to be between 90 min and 2.5 hours. After 3 hours aerobic benefits begin to plateau while the injury risk increases exponentionally. The reason why the 20 miler has become sacred is that many of the hal higdon etc plans that were devised were devised at a time when the average marathon finishing time was around 3.30 which running at the right intensity levels for an easy run would give you a 3.10 20 miler as your max long run which would be in lines with the guidelines for low injury risk long runs.

    Another element is that was summed up by a US coach previously was as follows

    "metabolic fitness preceeds structural readiness"

    There is a reason why some one untrained can hop on a bike and bust out an hour or two on a bike (at relevant low intensity level) while you can't do the same in running. the reason is while the lungs and heart might be up for the challenge the limbs aren't

    Running is similar to walking in that the first and probably most important muscle in the movement is a hip muscle, basically this instigates walking and without it you wouldn't be able to lift you foot off the ground to start a walk or a run. While this muscle is used on one side of your body to start the action of walking/running the other side is stablizing your pelvis through every stride.

    Unfortunately with most of us not walking enough and living office lives where we spend a good chunk of our day in seats these muscles don't have a huge amount of endurance especially in our first few years of running. When we run for too long these fatigue and cause your hip to buckle which creates biomechanical issues down the kinetic chain along the knees and ankles which ends up being the root cause of many common running injuries (ITB Syndrome, Shin Splits, Runners Knee, Plantar Fasciitis etc)

    In order to get better bang for your buck you would be better adding one mile to each of your weekly runs rather than putting them all into a longer long run for endurance and muscular strength (as well as addition of squats and a few other Strength and conditioning exercises) for the 1st few years of your running less is more in terms of the long run. If you are consistent with your 90+ long runs (but below three hours) you will gain the strength needed to get you across the line without a doubt.

    (Sorry for the long winded post)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Never apologize for those types of post Myles. Much appreciated.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭kittyclaws


    For those of us (or only me!) who will be running for a longer time in the marathon - aka aiming for 4:50:xx, should there be a time cap on LSRs or will it be ok to go over 3 hours? Looking at last year's training the longest run I did was 18 miles and this run took me 3hrs 25 - so a 20 mile run will probably take close to 4 hours..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭Myles Splitz


    kittyclaws wrote: »
    For those of us (or only me!) who will be running for a longer time in the marathon - aka aiming for 4:50:xx, should there be a time cap on LSRs or will it be ok to go over 3 hours? Looking at last year's training the longest run I did was 18 miles and this run took me 3hrs 25 - so a 20 mile run will probably take close to 4 hours..

    From a strictly physical standpoint, perhaps.

    However there are two reasons why to not suddenly tear up the plans here

    1) Confidence. Sometimes the mental boost from knowing you are only 10k from your race target is worth the extra 25 min of running

    2) Race Specificity. Ideally no one should be running a marathon for a couple of years with decent mileage under their belt (50-60 a week for a prolonged period) however we don't live in an ideal world and me saying that is not going to dissuade people from toeing the line come October (raising money for charity, making changes to life and plenty of other reasons for doing it) with that said while I don't recommend excessively long runs for marathon training paradoxically I think they are the single most important element of getting people as ready as they can in an 18 week build up. provided the training is progressive and not very high injury risk the specificity of the longer long runs will help get you as race ready as you can be.

    Hope that makes sense


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 151 ✭✭Antwerp


    Thanks a mill, Myles for your advice as it makes so much sense as I WAS (as in past tense) wondering if I should get an even 24miler run in .....to prove to myself that if I could complete 24m then I should be able to do 26.2m but fret not I SHALL TRUST THE PLAN!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 177 ✭✭GOOSEPAUL


    nop98 wrote: »
    Hey GOOSEPAUL - well done for toughening it out. The Muppet makes a great point - even if you go out for 1 mile, and you need to come back, you've still 2 more miles in the bank. Really glad you managed to turn it around.

    What program are you following? 8, 10, 16M seems a hard way to cover ~25 easy M. Yep, consider running more, shorter midweek stuff like HHN/boards plans? I hope you don't have to run them on a dreadmill. It's okay to feel tired occasionally but it shouldn't be an ongoing state.

    I hope this week is going better for you.

    Not98, I'm doing the boards plan. Gonna just work off the plan rather than long runs during the week. Did 5 miles yesterday and felt fine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 151 ✭✭Antwerp


    Like a few others (I think) I have the DLR 10k booked for next Monday. Looking for some guidance on how we should approach this week - I am on the Boards Modified plan to date and all going well. I'm thinking of doing the 6M + strides today, 4M easy tomorrow and then possibly pull LSR forward to Thursday or Friday - I like my LSR; don't want missing it..:-)

    Any help would be appreciated.
    Thanks

    hi Paddy,
    Think it's just us doing DLR10 however Singer & NOP98 have already advised on our plan for this week, if You follow Post 1596 page 109 I think (sorry on mobile so hard to check) it will provide our homework.

    Basically our runs are a day earlier this week so for myself on Boards plan, I ran 4m last night, doing 6m shortly and then 4m (need to check later) tomorrow off Thurs doing easy 5m on Friday etc but NO LSR to be completed this week in lieu of the race on Sunday on the proviso that it is completed next wk (jump back into normal Boards Plan on Tues 2nd Aug).

    I know you will be broken hearted :) as you love the LSR but I have been advised by the professionals not to engage in it this week given DLR (as I originally though I would complete it mid-week).

    By all means Paddy, you may have a lot more running experience than I so I will leave it to one of the pros to guide you.

    P.s. Need to find some hills later as DlR full of them for the first half!!!


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭donglen


    kittyclaws wrote: »
    For those of us (or only me!) who will be running for a longer time in the marathon - aka aiming for 4:50:xx, should there be a time cap on LSRs or will it be ok to go over 3 hours? Looking at last year's training the longest run I did was 18 miles and this run took me 3hrs 25 - so a 20 mile run will probably take close to 4 hours..

    You're not on your own kittyclaws, I'm right there at that pace also. For what it's worth, my 20 miler last year took 03hrs 50. Mentally, I felt I had to cover that distance pre-marathon and I'm glad I did. Yes there are of course greater injury risks as the body tires but I'm a firm believer in getting the mind right as well as the body. I needed that distance covered to settle the doubts, others may not.
    It's only another 10k after those 20 miles........and you'll be knocking out 10k's for fun come October!!


Advertisement
Advertisement