Can Landlord force renter to sign a lease before renovation are completed

mentalist101 · 25-07-2016 09:12AM #1

I've been renting a property for five years with my current landlord. He gave us a notice to terminate to renovate the property. It was obvious this was to circumvent the new rent rules, we went to the PRTB and got an agreement that we would be given the right of first refusal and the house would be ready in a about a month.

The landlord called today and said we would have to sign a lease in a couple of days but the house is not ready for occupation and he is still waiting on a suit I'd furniture to arrive as the previous ones where in a pretty bad state. We told him it's not fair to sign a new lease and pay the rent if the house isn't ready to move in.

His excuse is that they never intended to change the furniture and it was a last minute decision and if we do not sign the lease he would have to reconsider renting the house back to us as it would affect the day the rent is to be paid.

Can he do this? He also said he contacted PRTB and they said this was fine but I don't believe this. Any help on this would be appreciated.

Galadriel · 25-07-2016 09:19AM

mentalist101 wrote: »

I've been renting a property for five years with my current landlord. He gave us a notice to terminate to renovate the property. It was obvious this was to circumvent the new rent rules, we went to the PRTB and got an agreement that we would be given the right of first refusal and the house would be ready in a about a month.

The landlord called today and said we would have to sign a lease in a couple of days but the house is not ready for occupation and he is still waiting on a suit I'd furniture to arrive as the previous ones where in a pretty bad state. We told him it's not fair to sign a new lease and pay the rent if the house isn't ready to move in.

His excuse is that they never intended to change the furniture and it was a last minute decision and if we do not sign the lease he would have to reconsider renting the house back to us as it would affect the day the rent is to be paid.

Can he do this? He also said he contacted PRTB and they said this was fine but I don't believe this. Any help on this would be appreciated.

Apart from the suite of furniture what else needs to be done?

Graham · 25-07-2016 09:23AM

mentalist101 wrote: »

He also said he contacted PRTB and they said this was fine but I don't believe this. Any help on this would be appreciated.

Can't say I believe it either, what did they say when you called to check?

How long is the landlord saying you would be without a suite?

mentalist101 · 25-07-2016 09:24AM

I'm not sure, for now there is still some builders waste in the house that needs to be cleared out. The landlord said that would be done, but he isn't being very forthcoming with answers. He says it might only be the suite of furniture left. Is this allowed especially as we have the right of first refusal and an agreement from the PRTB?

68 lost souls · 25-07-2016 09:25AM

mentalist101 wrote: »

I've been renting a property for five years with my current landlord. He gave us a notice to terminate to renovate the property. It was obvious this was to circumvent the new rent rules, we went to the PRTB and got an agreement that we would be given the right of first refusal and the house would be ready in a about a month.

The landlord called today and said we would have to sign a lease in a couple of days but the house is not ready for occupation and he is still waiting on a suit I'd furniture to arrive as the previous ones where in a pretty bad state. We told him it's not fair to sign a new lease and pay the rent if the house isn't ready to move in.

His excuse is that they never intended to change the furniture and it was a last minute decision and if we do not sign the lease he would have to reconsider renting the house back to us as it would affect the day the rent is to be paid.

Can he do this? He also said he contacted PRTB and they said this was fine but I don't believe this. Any help on this would be appreciated.

I would contact the PRTB yourself and ask if he had been in touch and was it ok?

He obviously wants the rent paid the day the mortgage is paid on it or similar but its his tough I feel in this case. The place isnt habitable you shouldn't be liable for that.

mentalist101 · 25-07-2016 09:26AM

Graham wrote: »

Can't say I believe it either, what did they say when you called to check?

How long is the landlord saying you would be without a suite?

He doesn't know when it will be there, might be Friday or next Tuesday. He wants the rent paid this month and doesn't want it to run over to the next.

I've been trying to reach the PRTB and I'm waiting room call threshold as they aren't open yet. This just blindsided me this morning.

Galadriel · 25-07-2016 09:27AM

mentalist101 wrote: »

I'm not sure, for now there is still some builders waste in the house that needs to be cleared out. The landlord said that would be done, but he isn't being very forthcoming with answers. He says it might only be the suite of furniture left. Is this allowed especially as we have the right of first refusal and an agreement from the PRTB?

Ok, well try to get a straight answer from him; is the place ready to move back into or not? if it's just waiting for a suite for furniture then I would personally move back in but obviously not if the building work is not complete.

Graham · 25-07-2016 09:27AM

68 lost souls wrote: »

He obviously wants the rent paid the day the mortgage is paid on it or similar but its his tough I feel in this case. The place isnt habitable you shouldn't be liable for that.

If the property is in a high-demand area and/or the rent is reasonable it may be in the OP's interests to adopt a slightly more flexible position.

Speedwell · 25-07-2016 09:30AM

I don't think there's anything wrong with signing a lease so long as the lease specifies that it will be in effect on the later of a specified date or the date the premises are made furnished and habitable, and if the premises are not furnished and made habitable within (say) 30 days of the first specified date, the tenants in their sole discretion have the option to terminate as of the end of the 30 days. I added this sort of language to a lease I signed in advance for a new apartment complex in the US, and the leasing agents were fine with it... they did in fact need a week extra to replace a faulty air conditioning unit. Someone here who knows about Irish legalities will doubtless advise, but I doubt very much if the landlord can require you to pay rent on premises that are not habitable.

Graham · 25-07-2016 09:32AM

Speedwell wrote: »

I don't think there's anything wrong with signing a lease so long as the lease specifies that it will be in effect on the later of a specified date or the date the premises are made furnished and habitable, and if the premises are not furnished and made habitable within (say) 30 days of the first specified date, the tenants in their sole discretion have the option to terminate as of the end of the 30 days. I added this sort of language to a lease I signed in advance for a new apartment complex in the US, and the leasing agents were fine with it... they did in fact need a week extra to replace a faulty air conditioning unit. Someone here who knows about Irish legalities will doubtless advise

That may work in a property market where supply meets or exceeds demand. Anywhere else, it's likely to lead to a PFO from the landlord and the property being listed on DAFT later that day.

Graham · 25-07-2016 09:33AM

mentalist101 wrote: »

He doesn't know when it will be there, might be Friday or next Tuesday. He wants the rent paid this month and doesn't want it to run over to the next.

Today is Monday so you're only talking about a couple of days without a suite.

Get cushions or are there other reasons you don't want to sign a new lease yet?

Speedwell · 25-07-2016 09:34AM

Graham wrote: »

That may work in a property market where supply meets or exceeds demand. Anywhere else, it's likely to lead to a PFO from the landlord and the property being listed on DAFT later that day.

The tenants had the right of first refusal. Is it really a refusal if they are negotiating the terms of a lease they fully intend to sign?

Graham · 25-07-2016 09:37AM

Speedwell wrote: »

The tenants had the right of first refusal. Is it really a refusal if they are negotiating the terms of a lease they fully intend to sign?

Technically that may be right. Being technically right is of bugger all use if the property is let to somebody else in the mean time.

Speedwell · 25-07-2016 09:38AM

Graham wrote: »

Technically that may be right. Being technically right is of bugger all use if the property is let to somebody else in the mean time.

Fair enough.

mentalist101 · 25-07-2016 10:02AM

OP here, We are happy to pay the rent and deposit for the place and sign the lease for when the furniture arrives. Its just we don't think the landlord has been fair as there has already been a delay in getting the house ready as per our agreement. We understood as building work takes time but he refuses to be understanding to us. The only reason he wants the lease signed before the furniture arrives is to have the rent day paid within the month and not in August when the furniture is due to arrive from our conversation.

Just spoke to threshold and they said that we should provide the landlord with a written notice saying that we do not intend to sign the lease until the property is fully habitable and we will be happy to pay rent and deposit for the property as soon as this is done and since we have an agreement to move back in, that renting the house to someone else is illegal.

I hope this works as we are simply asking for a delay of less than a week to sign the lease and he still is holding on to our previous deposit as a holding fee for the house. It has always been clear we would take the house back

Graham · 25-07-2016 10:08AM

It might be worth considering a softer version of Speedwell's suggestion.

Offer to meet this week and pay the rent/deposit on the basis the lease starts next Tuesday. Landlord still gets the cash when he needs it and you get to move back into the house when everything is completed.

mentalist101 · 25-07-2016 10:23AM

Graham wrote: »

It might be worth considering a softer version of Speedwell's suggestion.

Offer to meet this week and pay the rent/deposit on the basis the lease starts next Tuesday. Landlord still gets the cash when he needs it and you get to move back into the house when everything is completed.

I've tried that but the landlord wants the lease to run from this week so he gets paid monthly before the 29th. I would not be having a problem if the case was simply to give the landlord cash as he needs it, it's just unfair to sign a lease for a house that's not ready.

Graham · 25-07-2016 10:32AM

Offer to start the lease on the 29th. That's Friday, the first of the 2 potential suite delivery dates.

Assuming you do want the property back, I would be wary of giving the landlord the opportunity of saying you were offered the property back but you refused to sign the lease.

mentalist101 · 25-07-2016 10:46AM

Graham wrote: »

Offer to start the lease on the 29th. That's Friday, the first of the 2 potential suite delivery dates.

Assuming you do want the property back, I would be wary of giving the landlord the opportunity of saying you were offered the property back but you refused to sign the lease.

Just spoke to the landlord, he said he would be putting the old furniture back in case the new one isn't there by Friday, and we have agreed to sign the lease on Friday evening to give it some time for the new set to get here that way there is some kind of furniture in the house.

The new set will be swapped when it arrives. Its not the best but we will have to see how things go with the rest of the house. Thanks for all the advice

SB_Part2 · 25-07-2016 10:47AM

Just to give a different perspective here. I don't think he's trying to fob you off with the 2 dates for the suite. When we were getting ours delivered we were given two different dates. We were told that some suites take longer to get into houses etc and they can't account for everything.

Graham · 25-07-2016 10:48AM

A happy compromise for all.

Best of luck in you new-old home.

mentalist101 · 25-07-2016 10:51AM

SB_Part2 wrote: »

Just to give a different perspective here. I don't think he's trying to fob you off with the 2 dates for the suite. When we were getting ours delivered we were given two different dates. We were told that some suites take longer to get into houses etc and they can't account for everything.

I understood that, it was just the way he handled things that was really off putting.

We could have easily negotiated things but he resorted to threats instead of trying to understand our position. Using the PRTB as a justification and threatening to give the house to someone else for a delay of a couple of days which we had the right to.

Mrs OBumble · 25-07-2016 01:28PM

Note that the house does not require a suite of furniture, new old or otherwise, in order to be habitable.

Can Landlord force renter to sign a lease before renovation are completed

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