Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

oranbhoy67 · 22-07-2016 02:08AM

The amount of times he said "Social Media" also struck me, the old school like him are terrified of it .. and rightly so . the Internet for all its faults is a wonderous thing too

oranbhoy67 · 22-07-2016 02:21AM

sunbeam wrote: »

I suppose the fact that Mary didn't live there and was probably wasn't very familiar with the area might be one reason why her mother panicked so quickly. Still seems odd that when her brother didn't answer her the first time (according to the Irish Independent report), she left it ten minutes before asking again rather than just walking out to him and repeating the question.

its weird and I don't want to make my mother sound like a bad mother as she was/is far from it but whenever we came over here on holidays we had free reign to go where we liked as long as were back for a certain time ,same when my dad took us over here in the summer to his area .. we traipsed all over the place , it was very remote but where my mums family is ...but stil, and it was the same at home in Glasgow tbh we would be out all day wandering back in for dinner then called in around 9 or 10ish
I myself am terrified to let my kid out my sight and he is 12 !!
and my mum had a brothers whos child went missing.. but then again maybe she was more relaxed as our family wasnt in Cashelard which in a roundabout way might answer the question of why Marys mother panicked so quickly .

sunbeam · 22-07-2016 02:48AM

One of the most bizarre things in the documentary for me was the clip from the RTE programme in 2000 where Mary's mother and her brother Michael suggested that Mary might have gone walking to Belleek 7km away to find a toy she saw there the previous day. Oranbhoy67, do you know if they are still claiming that this might be the case?

oranbhoy67 · 22-07-2016 04:09AM

sunbeam wrote: »

One of the most bizarre things in the documentary for me was the clip from the RTE programme in 2000 where Mary's mother and her brother Michael suggested that Mary might have gone walking to Belleek 7km away to find a toy she saw there the previous day. Oranbhoy67, do you know if they are still claiming that this might be the case?

Michael has passed away since then , the mother i haven't heard her say that before or since that show , I don't speak to her now but the last time i did she said there was sweet wrappers found on the main road which I have never saw anywhere before or since, the official line has always between not a single trace of her was found

You are right it is very very bizarre to suggest that , she would have had to either walk back to the house where everyone was and turned down a lane.. or climbed through really boggy land and climb an old stone wall on to the lane ( and im certain her Uncle would have seen her do this) that I'm guessing would have took her about 20-30 minutes to walk . at the end of that lane was a small work place and a quiet road now,( im guessing quieter then) if she went right (either walking or in a strange car) then she would have ended up going straight past the small lough where the fisherman where fishing and checking out for cars as they were poaching , immediately left of the end of her families lane is a small workplace where I believe the tree cutter was, he reported no strange cars as did both fishermen eventually, if she was out on that road someone would have seen her. and any cars on the way to belleek (the road to which she was really far from in walking terms) would have had to go through at least one checkpoint/Border crossing

the other thing she could have done in this theory is actually continued to follow her uncle to the neighbours house without her uncle noticing or the neighbour seeing and then go past the house on to the said road , both the Uncle and the neighbour said this didnt happen as they would have seen her. and anyway this again would have took her onto the same road just a little bit closer to the lough.

You can never rule anything out but i find the chances of any of these things happening very slim to non-existent

Jadaol · 22-07-2016 04:14AM

sunbeam wrote: »

One of the most bizarre things in the documentary for me was the clip from the RTE programme in 2000 where Mary's mother and her brother Michael suggested that Mary might have gone walking to Belleek 7km away to find a toy she saw there the previous day. Oranbhoy67, do you know if they are still claiming that this might be the case?

That was fierce odd. To think that that was even a likely plausible explanation beggars belief

I read somewhere can't remember, that the person suspected was known to have previous issues, which is why the mother panicking strikes me

So many aspects to this that make no sense.

I also think it's strange that someone would cross what was described as rough terrain with a ladder when they had access to a car

Also, the detective that spoke to the relative of the suspect where he met him in a car and said she was murdered after he gave him three theories about what could have happened to her. The man said he knew the girls well and loved them. If a relative of the suspect loved the kids, then the suspect must have also had a close relationship with the family

You would have to wonder why the guards if they are serious about investigating don't talk to these 2 guards and similarly question the suspect and the suspects relative. It is surely the way to go to get the truth rather than reviewing case files that could have been written up or tampered with to exclude information. I really hope this march leads somewhere and puts pressure on. The silence from rte is deafening. I keep checking the video to see how many people have watched it. The more that do, the more likely the case will get better coverage. And why isn't sean mceniff questioned about his alleged role in this to see what the truth there is

oranbhoy67 · 22-07-2016 04:51AM

I have drawn on the google map of the area the key places in this case and included a link to the area , the fishermen were further down the map on the lough .. the Treecutter position is a rough estimate, I will try and find out more about where he was as exactly tomorrow but right now my eyes are closing... im living and breathing this 24/7

https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.5192715,-8.0999947,467m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

oranbhoy67 · 22-07-2016 05:06AM

Jadaol wrote: »

You would have to wonder why the guards if they are serious about investigating don't talk to these 2 guards and similarly question the suspect and the suspects relative. It is surely the way to go to get the truth rather than reviewing case files that could have been written up or tampered with to exclude information. I really hope this march leads somewhere and puts pressure on. The silence from rte is deafening.

This here is all we want , the Gardai keep saying the mother is the main point of Contact , her daughter has very valid concerns which MUST be taken seriously , they are backed up by the 2 most senior surviving Gardai on the case , both of whom have submitted reports since retiring to their superiors .

RTE have been nothing short of a disgrace in this, that story they ran with last week that there was another dig going on, i have doubts that that was even true, its meant to be planned to last a fortnight , where is the camera crews up covering this? the footage they showed of the digger could have been taken anywhere

Their coverage of their march was also a joke , they said up to 500 people Marched when the local gardai said 1200 (yes i know i shouldn't believe the gardai

) the youtube videos of the March are much more powerful and show the march from proper angles head on and show the real power and emotion shown that day .. RTE are paying lip service to this case and that is all .

I grew up in the UK fascinated by the Birmingham 6 & Guilford 4 justice campaigns I was only a kid but I watched the investigative reporting shows with my dad on both cases and I hated the way the law was treating them just for being Irish there , but at least their media had the balls to ask questions, with top class investigative journalism which I believe in the end was the key to winning freedom for those poor men and women.

We seem to have no such standards of journalism in this country 3 decades later. it's a stain on their trade.

NIMAN · 22-07-2016 05:17AM

Totally agree about the media coverage. Disgraceful.

But this is now gathering a head of steam, mainly thanks to the new (social) media.

It won't be acceptable for them (RTE mostly) to continue avoiding the story. Why they are avoiding it is baffling. When is a news story not a news story? You can guarantee if this was a case in Dublin it would be getting plenty of airtime.

hamlet10000000 · 22-07-2016 08:43AM

has anyone gone any information of whether this case was reviewed by authority. I am doing catch up on the posts and its fascinating.

22-07-2016 11:03AM

Going Forward wrote: »

Plus, she was just visiting.

She didn't live there.

She wouldn't have been familiar with the terrain or surroundings.

I doubt whether she would have been expected to have much ability to know her way back to the house she was visiting, on her own.

But apparently there was little doubt about that possibility on that afternoon in 1977, or for the last 39 years.

It seems to me that this is where the key is.
There are witnesses that corroborate the Uncle's statement about returning a ladder, and there are witnesses that confirm that no-one passed by in two different directions.
IF we assume that all these witnesses are telling the truth/haven't made any genuine mistakes, then that leaves only one potential direction Mary could have gone, or been taken - and that's towards the top of the map that Oranbhoy posted.

I know there are several houses up there, but I'm wondering if as much attention has been paid to that direction? I'm not familiar with the area, but it seems to be busier, and maybe as much attention wouldn't be paid where there was more traffic/people walking?
Where does that road lead, anyway?

PaddyWilliams · 22-07-2016 11:11AM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

I have drawn on the google map of the area the key places in this case and included a link to the area , the fishermen were further down the map on the lough .. the Treecutter position is a rough estimate, I will try and find out more about where he was as exactly tomorrow but right now my eyes are closing... im living and breathing this 24/7

https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.5192715,-8.0999947,467m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Whatever you do, please don't burn yourself out. You've been doing good work on this, keep yourself fresh as much as you can. Keep up the fight.

sunbeam · 22-07-2016 11:52AM

Has any other family member reported that they saw Mary heading off after her uncle? Were statements taken from all of them about when they last saw her?

Missymoohaa · 22-07-2016 12:06PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

I have drawn on the google map of the area the key places in this case and included a link to the area , the fishermen were further down the map on the lough .. the Treecutter position is a rough estimate, I will try and find out more about where he was as exactly tomorrow but right now my eyes are closing... im living and breathing this 24/7

https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.5192715,-8.0999947,467m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Hi Oranbhoy, what is the white building to the top of the Gallagher House?

Oh and sorry about this, but do you know how long it would take an adult to run the distance between the McCauley House and the Gallagher House over the rough terrain?

oranbhoy67 · 22-07-2016 02:01PM

sunbeam wrote: »

Has any other family member reported that they saw Mary heading off after her uncle? Were statements taken from all of them about when they last saw her?

all the adults gave a statement they were all in the house so never saw her head after him

Missymoohaa wrote: »

Hi Oranbhoy, what is the white building to the top of the Gallagher House?

Oh and sorry about this, but do you know how long it would take an adult to run the distance between the McCauley House and the Gallagher House over the rough terrain?

that is a works building like a farmers outshed or something i will need to find out if that was there at the time or not

on your second question im not quite sure but id hazard a guess at 15 mins with the terrain being so rough

HollyM46 · 22-07-2016 02:08PM

What about the kids or was this just not done?

oranbhoy67 · 22-07-2016 02:09PM

I will be seeing all the officall eye witness statments soon from that day which will give me a clearer picture myself of what is being claimed about that day

another thing I need to add is that both eyewitnesses reported 3 cars that day

Three!

all three were accounted for

(the fisherman of course added in his Red VW beetle story 24 years later after the other eyewitness had passed away)

yet we were led to believe for decades that by chance she had managed to wander away from the area which I have shown above & Robert Black got a hold of her in his marked company van ( Robert Blacks work records show he wasnt even in the country at the time too)

oranbhoy67 · 22-07-2016 02:11PM

HollyM46 wrote: »

What about the kids or was this just not done?

I dont think it was but done back in those days I'd say they would have been informally asked ,but ill try find out.. they were all playing in a field at the other side of the house from where Mary was said to have left from

HollyM46 · 22-07-2016 02:29PM

As I have said before, was in the area at the time albeit a six year old but know the way people looked out for cars and suspiscious of anyone they didn't know and still do because of remoteness which you can understand. As has been said previously, we also roamed the lands but were always warned not to do so on our own and again don't know and can't check now if this was because of the suspect or someone else who also lived locally,

jenny smith · 22-07-2016 04:07PM

Going Forward wrote: »

True, it's no one's decision but the organiser's.

Personally I'd find it difficult to justify the necessity to chant any rhymes.

Remaining dignified whilst shouting anything akin to No Way We Wont Pay, with the inevitable uninvited assistance of someone banging a drum is going to be a challenge, regardless of the lyrics.

This is a new movement one which is borne of the disappearance of a child.

It is not going to be in receipt of funds for printing AFAIK.

It may need to depend on something visual.

And something unusual nowadays, a bit of silence.

Black/dark upper clothing with a purple armband.

The purple ribbons.

One, simple large banner at the front, possibly a local sign maker could give a discounted rate.

And btw, I have no intention of arguing with you, your idea of a narrow tape type sticker to go on number plate surrounds carrying a simple message of Justice for Mary Boyle is a no brainer and would be very thought provoking IMO.

And it shouldn't cost a fortune.

Any campaign needs to be respectful, engaging, solemn and untainted by any external influences.

Just one opinion.

I have no intent to argue with you either:). we are all trying to find the best way to help the Mary's sister and the others involved

DonegalTech · 22-07-2016 04:51PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

HollyM46 wrote: »

What about the kids or was this just not done?

I dont think it was but done back in those days I'd say they would have been informally asked ,but ill try find out.. they were all playing in a field at the other side of the house from where Mary was said to have left from

I have two questions here (I highlighted them)

The documentary stated that Mary's mum and twin sister are now estranged, why exactly is this?

I know her mum is said to be against an Inquest, but there is a chance the actual suspect could still be apprehended and convicted in the case solved. If they could move past the inquest argument, there is still a chance of a criminal investigation, but they need to join forces.

Is it only those two who are estranged, or is there currently a larger split in Mary's family right now?

The reason i ask, is that this split is causing the communication break between the Gardai and Mary's twin, which probably suits the Government fine. If they could put their differences aside momentarily, perhaps the Gardai would be forced to focus on the actual suspect, and Mary could still be found.

oranbhoy67 · 22-07-2016 05:16PM

DonegalTech wrote: »

I have two questions here (I highlighted them)

The documentary stated that Mary's mum and twin sister are now estranged, why exactly is this?

I know her mum is said to be against an Inquest, but there is a chance the actual suspect could still be apprehended and convicted in the case solved. If they could move past the inquest argument, there is still a chance of a criminal investigation, but they need to join forces.

Is it only those two who are estranged, or is there currently a larger split in Mary's family right now?

The reason i ask, is that this split is causing the communication break between the Gardai and Mary's twin, which probably suits the Government fine. If they could put their differences aside momentarily, perhaps the Gardai would be forced to focus on the actual suspect, and Mary could still be found.

They are estanged because the mother believes the Gardai have been on the right track this last 39 years and she wants to continue in this vein

The daughter believes she knows the killer is and it doesnt sit right with the mothers lets just say

I can only speak for the Boyle Family, im the only one in Donegal who is publicly backing my cousins campaign, the rest all live in the same area as the mother - I dont, therefore maybe it is easier for me to back the daughter than it is for them to do so , i think tbh they have the rural viewpoint of not wanting to get involved in anything publicly, but I myself certainly haven't fell out with any of them (except Marys mother) and neither has young Anne.

i would love them to come out and be vocal and support us but thats their choice, I don't have to live where they live so I'm not going to condemn them or anything

My brother who lives here also is behind Marys twin Ann , he led the march with us this week but he isnt as outspoken as me and not active online , My own mother (marys dads sister) and the rest of my family are still in Scotland, and they all back the daughter but again in their own way, less publicly, as do cousins and Aunts of ours in the USA & in Canada.

To sum up theres been no falling out except for between the mother and daughter in the case. some like myself and my sister are very vocal in our support for the daughter,to the extent that we want nothing to do with her mother either... some are less vocal but have changed their profile pics on FB to include the ribbon etc, and those who still have to live near the mother are basically saying nothing either way.

Confusing i know but that's the best i can explain it

jenny smith · 22-07-2016 07:17PM

What is the attitude towards the suspect in the area? Do people talk to him, does he go for a drink etc?

Satriale · 22-07-2016 09:52PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

all the adults gave a statement they were all in the house so never saw her head after him

that is a works building like a farmers outshed or something i will need to find out if that was there at the time or not

on your second question im not quite sure but id hazard a guess at 15 mins with the terrain being so rough

Ok I'm after doing a practical test for you. It's about 1136ft/346 meters cross country between the two point on your map so i mapped out half that in rough path, followed by half boggy/rushy ground from my back door. It took me 4 minutes and 53 seconds to do the distance between those two points (i wasnt rushing and i'm used to that kind of ground)

So less than ten minutes there and back .

oranbhoy67 · 23-07-2016 04:32AM

Satriale wrote: »

Ok I'm after doing a practical test for you. It's about 1136ft/346 meters cross country between the two point on your map so i mapped out half that in rough path, followed by half boggy/rushy ground from my back door. It took me 4 minutes and 53 seconds to do the distance between those two points (i wasnt rushing and i'm used to that kind of ground)

So less than ten minutes there and back .

carrying a pair of ladders one-way remember!

Im really not that good with numbers and distances etc tbh

micar · 23-07-2016 02:08PM

A few things I'd like to know.

1) what's Mary's brother position on all this?!from the documentary it says he's in America

2) what's the position of her cousins who where at the house on the day she went missing.

jenny smith · 23-07-2016 03:56PM

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/michael-clifford/hearsay-is-no-substitute-for-evidence-411902.html

I agree with film "is heavy with innuendo and hearsay rather than hard evidence." . He also says "Prior to the enactment of the Criminal Justice Act 1984, there were strict rules around powers of arrest and detention" and that gardai may not have had the evidence to arrest him [suspect] then. But could they not use the Criminal Justice Act 1984 now?

Going Forward · 23-07-2016 04:36PM

jenny smith wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/michael-clifford/hearsay-is-no-substitute-for-evidence-411902.html

I agree with film "is heavy with innuendo and hearsay rather than hard evidence." . He also says "Prior to the enactment of the Criminal Justice Act 1984, there were strict rules around powers of arrest and detention" and that gardai may not have had the evidence to arrest him [suspect] then. But could they not use the Criminal Justice Act 1984 now?

He's effectively suggesting that "innocent" or suspected criminals were treated with kid gloves by Gardai in the years prior to the 1984 Act and that the Act gave gardai, who were previously so hindered in their work, some freedom.

Its a very weak reason to put forward as an excuse as to why a fortright interrogation of the suspect never took place.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/state-papers-1977-jack-lynch-set-up-garda-brutality-inquiry-51346.html

In fact it is preposterous.

http://courtsnewsireland.ie/7-extraordinary-exonerations/2016/02/23/

Similarly, why is he promoting the idea that a fresh investigation has been announced by the Garda Commissioner?

Presumably he read the news in the Star.

The gaurds have already dismissed that suggestion, saying the current investigation began in 2011, and that the case was never closed anyway.

And lastly, why no mention of the Star's other "Mary Boyle Exclusive" front page news?

The claim that the Gardai rigged a "witness" statement, twice?

Clifford must have missed that, even with all his knowledge of social media and reading the Star.

Which leads us on to Clifford's ability to "know" that it is mainly SF supporters that are discussing it on social media.

How does he "know" this??

I'm not and I'm discussing it.

No one has said the documentary is without fault.

And everyone knows there's no evidence of a cover up.

It wasn't, as someone said here, as if any call was going to be logged in the Garda Station log book if a call had been made.

The intercession if it occurred wasn't going to be broadcast as such.

But I doubt he'd be writing ANYTHING about the "chief suspect" if O'Doherty hadn't made the documentary, flawed as it is.

And that's a result of sorts.

Scaredy_Cat · 23-07-2016 05:00PM

Wow this is horrendous! I have spent the last few days reading every single post on all 95 pages! I was born the year after Mary went missing and from as long as I can remember I have always known about her being missing and that photo of her with the ponytails. I always think that I looked quite like her at that age so I don't know if that's why her disappearance has always bothered me so much (obviously ALL missing kids bothers me but this one more so).

I'm so shocked after all these years to learn the true circumstances of her disappearance. I've had so many questions reading through all the posts that I've forgotten most of them!

As a mother myself the biggest one I can't get my head around is her mother! But at same time i understand the whole rural notion about wanting to keep things quite (but not murder or abuse!) having grown up in the countryside myself.

Was Mary being abused by the suspect? I find it hard to understand why Mary's twin Ann would leave her child to be raised by her mother as she would have no clue when the suspect would be around her daughter, if she thought he abused Mary??

Could it be possible that Mary could have died accidentally and person or persons involved panicked and covered it up? I want to be careful about how I say things so I hope this makes sense! Just throwing it out there.... something was said about some water and that Mary couldn't get across and turned back. What if Mary had tried to cross it on her own and got stuck and drowned or got hurt crossing the stone walls (my 4 year old would most definitely try and probably succeed in climbing one of those type of walls by the way...I thought it a bit odd that they kept saying no 6 year old could, doesn't mean she mightend have tried and failed) and was discovered and people panicked?? Dunno like I said just throwing it out there. Could explain why everyone wants it to stay under the carpet.

Going Forward · 23-07-2016 05:08PM

[QUOTE=Scaredy_Cat;100447647]Wow this is horrendous! I have spent the last few days reading every single post on all 95 pages! I was born the year after Mary went missing and from as long as I can remember I have always known about her being missing and that photo of her with the ponytails. I always think that I looked quite like her at that age so I don't know if that's why her disappearance has always bothered me so much (obviously ALL missing kids bothers me but this one more so).

I'm so shocked after all these years to learn the true circumstances of her disappearance. I've had so many questions reading through all the posts that I've forgotten most of them!

As a mother myself the biggest one I can't get my head around is her mother! But at same time i understand the whole rural notion about wanting to keep things quite (but not murder or abuse!) having grown up in the countryside myself.

Was Mary being abused by the suspect? I find it hard to understand why Mary's twin Ann would leave her child to be raised by her mother as she would have no clue when the suspect would be around her daughter, if she thought he abused Mary??

Could it be possible that Mary could have died accidentally and person or persons involved panicked and covered it up? I want to be careful about how I say things so I hope this makes sense! Just throwing it out there.... something was said about some water and that Mary couldn't get across and turned back. What if Mary had tried to cross it on her own and got stuck and drowned or got hurt crossing the stone walls (my 4 year old would most definitely try and probably succeed in climbing one of those type of walls by the way...I thought it a bit odd that they kept saying no 6 year old could, doesn't mean she mightend have tried and failed) and was discovered and people panicked?? Dunno like I said just throwing it out there. Could explain why everyone wants it to stay under the carpet.[/QUOTE]

No one knows the true circumstances:) The truth has not and may not ever come out.

There are only suspicions.

HollyM46 · 23-07-2016 05:19PM

Going Forward, one person does.

Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

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