Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

yewtree · 20-07-2016 11:11AM

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

If he doesnt need protein which he is unlikely to with that cow type id value the grass at .5 to .65 the price of barley or maize.

On pure energy comparison

1 kg Dry matter of barley contains 1.16
UFl
1 kg Dry matter of maize contains 1.22
UFl
1kg of dry matter of grass contains 1.01 UFl
Grass is 13%&18% lower in energy yet is worth only half the value of barley& maize??
I haven't accounted for the extra value of protein in grass, both maize and barley need to be balanced for protein

jaymla627 · 20-07-2016 11:54AM

yewtree wrote: »

Not sure on these figures, well managed grass worth a lot more than 15 litres across the year. What UFl values/ intakes are you assuming to get such a low value? Your right on much slower return with low milk price but drainage cap ex so should be looked at over longer term.
The figures used were based on replacing the extra feed grown on the farm with bought in feed, €200 tonne/ utilised seems fair enough. On a heavy farm is there anything outside of soil fertility that would give a better return on investment?

Bang on in my opinion if you do 300 days at grass it's equal to 4500 litres produced from grass alone per cow, very few lads achieving more then that.....
The bought in - feed scenario I find galling, teagasc regularly ramble on about grass only costing 7-9 cent kg/dm to produce thus giving us 'a low cost grass based system' but the minute they want to justify/produce eyecatching headline figures grass is suddenly worth 200 euro ton kg/dm.

yosemitesam1 · 20-07-2016 12:33PM

yewtree wrote: »

On pure energy comparison

1 kg Dry matter of barley contains 1.16
UFl
1 kg Dry matter of maize contains 1.22
UFl
1kg of dry matter of grass contains 1.01 UFl
Grass is 13%&18% lower in energy yet is worth only half the value of barley& maize??
I haven't accounted for the extra value of protein in grass, both maize and barley need to be balanced for protein

Ufl's dont take into account that you'll lose a minimum of 10% of that energy and possibly much higher depending on distance for cow to walk,topography and sward density. Allowing for extra protein wouldnt be needed on the farm in question as they wont have any need for any extra protein as long as grass was making up the majority of they're diet.
When you allow for the variability of grass dm, energy, growth rates and give yourself something for all the effort gone into managing it, I dont see how it could be worth anymore than .5-.65 of maize depending on the farm.

yewtree · 20-07-2016 12:56PM

jaymla627 wrote: »

Bang on in my opinion if you do 300 days at grass it's equal to 4500 litres produced from grass alone per cow, very few lads achieving more then that.....
The bought in - feed scenario I find galling, teagasc regularly ramble on about grass only costing 7-9 cent kg/dm to produce thus giving us 'a low cost grass based system' but the minute they want to justify/produce eyecatching headline figures grass is suddenly worth 200 euro ton kg/dm.

I don't think that accurately represents the feed value of grass or the value of grass, your assuming every cow in the herd calves on the 1st of February and grazes full time for 300 days. this doesn't happen at farm level. The potential of grass to produce milk is dictated by the quality and intake potential of grass. Any figures i have seen are far higher than 15 L a day.

The €200 is the replacement cost of grass, if you had to go out and buy something that would be equivalent to high quality grass. The cost of growing grass varies from farm to farm. Teagasc need a better handle on it rather than using the same figure all the time. The more grass we can grow the more we dilute the fixed costs associated with growing/utilizing grass (land charge, reseeding, paddock infrastruture)

The drainage done on the IGA farm allowed more grazings to take place which increased the amount of grass grown/utilised which seems to be a good investment

Buford T. Justice XIX · 20-07-2016 12:59PM

jaymla627 wrote: »

Bang on in my opinion if you do 300 days at grass it's equal to 4500 litres produced from grass alone per cow, very few lads achieving more then that.....
The bought in - feed scenario I find galling, teagasc regularly ramble on about grass only costing 7-9 cent kg/dm to produce thus giving us 'a low cost grass based system' but the minute they want to justify/produce eyecatching headline figures grass is suddenly worth 200 euro ton kg/dm.

The answer from Teagasc...

PM analysis and grass used shows each extra tonne of grass DM used associated with 165-267 euro increased profit- 200 euro rough average.

Also, for the first time I can remember, Teagasc added in a wage figure of 30k for both farms equating to 5.6c/l so fair play for listening to the concerns of farmers about the misuse of PM figures.

kowtow · 20-07-2016 01:11PM

Keepgrowing wrote: »

put a value on a tonne of dm

I think that is the point, you can't, at least without knowing every other variable in the context - even then it's sometimes more of an art than a science.

Typically you would measure payback time for a capital investment against the incremental net profits generated by that investment... leaving aside for a moment any increase in open market land value you would need to be taking into account at least the variable costs associated with 1. extra cows carried and milked and 2. any additional inputs (fert, lime etc.) in producing or conserving the extra grass grown and utilised, all averaged across a reasonable period.

You might reasonably leave aside fixed costs if you already had excess cubicle space, slurry storage etc. but if eating the extra grass meant those things were needed you'd have to look at the whole thing as a bigger capital project (or value it as bales, which would be very low - 5-10c / kg dm after wrapping?)

If there had been no change in stocking rate or cows carried you would presumably be seeing a fall in input (feed) costs as much as or more than an increase in milk sold? - and few other capital investments needed alongside - in a sense that's the easiest figure to work out if that is the context.

But in any of these scenarios would the extra grass alone, net of the variable cost of growing it and turning it into milk, be worth 20c / kg?

kowtow · 20-07-2016 01:14PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

The answer from Teagasc...

PM analysis and grass used shows each extra tonne of grass DM used associated with 165-267 euro increased profit- 200 euro rough average.

Also, for the first time I can remember, Teagasc added in a wage figure of 30k for both farms equating to 5.6c/l so fair play for listening to the concerns of farmers about the misuse of PM figures.

There is your problem. "associated with" does not mean the same as "responsible for", although if grass was the limiting factor it might well be a very big part of it.

Edit: although Teagasc technically pretty competent in statistics, they do play fast and loose with causation. For example, the "farmers in discussion groups are more profitable" is apt to read as though a discussion group caused that extra profitability - it might well have helped, but there are all sorts of selection factors which will make the kind of farmer who participates in a discussion group more likely to be a profitable farmer regardless of whether he joins a group - not least youth, energy, relative sobriety, commitment, and open mindedness. All these things make farmers profitable, and they also make them join discussion groups, but the latter is not the cause of the former.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 20-07-2016 01:19PM

At the risk of causing WWIII again, I'll throw up a few notes from yesterday:pac:

The first farm doesn't use clover due to a lower soil temperature in spring. Clover only kicks on when soil temperature hits 9 degrees and those soils are much later in hitting 9 degrees than drier soils.

Peat soils have a target soil pH of 5.5 and clay soils a pH target of 6.3. He made the point that his soil was a clay soil rather that peat, contrary to what would have been thought before.

40% higher Phos requirement due to Aluminium and Iron fixing the P in drained soils. Soils are very P hunger at first, a bit like filling a sponge. With 20kgs of P added for grass, that soil will add 15 units of P before P levels rise so it's a long term programme to lift soil P. His fert costs were 3.5c/l which is very good considering the high lime usage.

He has a peak cover/cow of 1000kgs dm because he feels he cannot carry higher covers. His calving date and grass growth figures in spring are 2 weeks behind Moorepark so he targets calving to grass. He starts on 8-900 covers for a week to get cows used to grazing. 50% calved between 11th Feb and 17th March and all calved by 10th April.

He found good recovery of damaged swards from spring with on-off grazing.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 20-07-2016 01:30PM

kowtow wrote: »

There is your problem. "associated with" does not mean the same as "responsible for", although if grass was the limiting factor it might well be a very big part of it.

Edit: although Teagasc technically pretty competent in statistics, they do play fast and loose with causation. For example, the "farmers in discussion groups are more profitable" is apt to read as though a discussion group caused that extra profitability - it might well have helped, but there are all sorts of selection factors which will make the kind of farmer who participates in a discussion group more likely to be a profitable farmer regardless of whether he joins a group - not least youth, energy, relative sobriety, commitment, and open mindedness. All these things make farmers profitable, and they also make them join discussion groups, but the latter is not the cause of the former.

I think you're splitting hairs there, kowtow.

The profit moniters were analysed for utilisation of grass across all the farms doing profit monitors. The association was higher grass usage equated to more profit, which we can all agree on, I think.

When they dug further, the figures thrown up showed that each 1t increase in grass usage added 200 euro to the farm profit of every farm. So farms with 3.5t of extra usage would, on average, expect an increase in farm profits of 700 euro. There was no analysis of capital expenditure needed in the form of increased stock or buildings so I assume that the increase was a net figure after capital costs for the increased utilisation were already accounted for.

kowtow · 20-07-2016 01:30PM

Out of interest, and in the interest of widening the discussion a little bit, how exactly do we calculate milk from grass?

I can see how to do it backwards, by subtracting concentrates fed from milk sold, but presumably that will vary enormously with cow type and overall system - there will be a point where you are feeding lots of grass and lots of nuts, and the substitution of one for another isn't really paying you back yet because you are caught between two stools..

Or can you go forwards saying, a given cow will do 18l from grass, then 0.3 l / kg up to x kg (substitution), then 0.9l/kg up to z kg where she maxes out?

yewtree · 20-07-2016 01:36PM

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Ufl's dont take into account that you'll lose a minimum of 10% of that energy and possibly much higher depending on distance for cow to walk,topography and sward density. Allowing for extra protein wouldnt be needed on the farm in question as they wont have any need for any extra protein as long as grass was making up the majority of they're diet.
When you allow for the variability of grass dm, energy, growth rates and give yourself something for all the effort gone into managing it, I dont see how it could be worth anymore than .5-.65 of maize depending on the farm.

10% is very high for energy used by walking, on flat ground walking a KM would only require 2% of total energy, walking on hilly ground can be triple that. but most irish cows dont walk that far regularly as our farms are smaller.

Well managed pastures tend to have fairly consistent energy contents and DM has to drop below 11-12% before intake will be effected.

kowtow · 20-07-2016 01:36PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I think you're splitting hairs there, kowtow.

I hope so, this business requires a very sharp pencil at the moment!

When they dug further, the figures thrown up showed that each 1t increase in grass usage added 200 euro to the farm profit of every farm. So farms with 3.5t of extra usage would, on average, expect an increase in farm profits of 700 euro. There was no analysis of capital expenditure needed in the form of increased stock or buildings so I assume that the increase was a net figure after capital costs for the increased utilisation were already accounted for.

I see what you mean. Was there other capital expenditure in this case, e.g. more cows, storage, accommodation etc., or were they already in place and underutilised so that the grass was the last piece of the puzzle?

jaymla627 · 20-07-2016 01:36PM

yewtree wrote: »

I don't think that accurately represents the feed value of grass or the value of grass, your assuming every cow in the herd calves on the 1st of February and grazes full time for 300 days. this doesn't happen at farm level. The potential of grass to produce milk is dictated by the quality and intake potential of grass. Any figures i have seen are far higher than 15 L a day.

The €200 is the replacement cost of grass, if you had to go out and buy something that would be equivalent to high quality grass. The cost of growing grass varies from farm to farm. Teagasc need a better handle on it rather than using the same figure all the time. The more grass we can grow the more we dilute the fixed costs associated with growing/utilizing grass (land charge, reseeding, paddock infrastruture)

The drainage done on the IGA farm allowed more grazings to take place which increased the amount of grass grown/utilised which seems to be a good investment

I follow the low cost guys notes on the journal etc very carefully at the minute they are all in our around 18-20 litres with no meal in, in the months of say feb - April they would be averaging 23-26 litres some less but 3-6kgs of meal is going in, they're is usually a sweet spot hit in may into June for about 3 weeks where grass supports 24 litres on it'd own, then it tails off and goes downhill...
Say august/September grass alone will support maybe 17 litres depending on weather , and then when you head into October/November/December grass will support maybe 12 litres averaged out but meal and silage will be going in so it's very hard to quantify.....
15 litres is a very good average a day in my view

Buford T. Justice XIX · 20-07-2016 01:43PM

kowtow wrote: »

I hope so, this business requires a very sharp pencil at the moment!

I see what you mean. Was there other capital expenditure in this case, e.g. more cows, storage, accommodation etc., or were they already in place and underutilised so that the grass was the last piece of the puzzle?

Iirc, there were costs involved including farm buildings, storage, extension to the parlour, improving roadways and extra stock.

The figure is a general figure, not specific to that farm, that the average farmer should expect from utilising more grass. Having seen that farm and farmer, I would say he would be getting a higher return from the investment.

yewtree · 20-07-2016 01:47PM

kowtow wrote: »

Out of interest, and in the interest of widening the discussion a little bit, how exactly do we calculate milk from grass?

I can see how to do it backwards, by subtracting concentrates fed from milk sold, but presumably that will vary enormously with cow type and overall system - there will be a point where you are feeding lots of grass and lots of nuts, and the substitution of one for another isn't really paying you back yet because you are caught between two stools..

Or can you go forwards saying, a given cow will do 18l from grass, then 0.3 l / kg up to x kg (substitution), then 0.9l/kg up to z kg where she maxes out?

teagasc have a grass calculator, it works on a back calculation based on milk sales and livestock numbers how much grass was utilised/ha. It might be kinda the answer to your question. Its on there website anyone can use it (excel based).

yewtree · 20-07-2016 02:06PM

jaymla627 wrote: »

I follow the low cost guys notes on the journal etc very carefully at the minute they are all in our around 18-20 litres with no meal in, in the months of say feb - April they would be averaging 23-26 litres some less but 3-6kgs of meal is going in, they're is usually a sweet spot hit in may into June for about 3 weeks where grass supports 24 litres on it'd own, then it tails off and goes downhill...
Say august/September grass alone will support maybe 17 litres depending on weather , and then when you head into October/November/December grass will support maybe 12 litres averaged out but meal and silage will be going in so it's very hard to quantify.....
15 litres is a very good average a day in my view

For guys feeding 500kgs/cow/year,

3kgs first rotation (3 kg day)= 180 kg
2kg April-May (2kg day)= 120
June-September= 0
September 15th- December15th (2.2 kg day)=200 kg

Those figures are rough just to illustrate that to feed 500 kg /year you cant really feed above 3 kg for any length of time so grass has to carry a bit more than 15 litres across the year. later calving cows will get a lot less meal than earlier calving cows.

I agree Autumn grass is lower quality than spring/summer grass and as you say guys are feeding to extend rotation. the other variables are stage of lactation and cows later in the year use more energy to maintain pregnancy. Cows in lower yielding herds will tend to but excess energy in late lactation on to their backs.
its not easy to pull it apart across the year as there are a lot of variables

yosemitesam1 · 20-07-2016 05:32PM

yewtree wrote: »

10% is very high for energy used by walking, on flat ground walking a KM would only require 2% of total energy, walking on hilly ground can be triple that. but most irish cows dont walk that far regularly as our farms are smaller.

Well managed pastures tend to have fairly consistent energy contents and DM has to drop below 11-12% before intake will be effected.

Its easy to underestimate how much energy cows will use out grazing, a few hundred metres for each milking and all the walking needed to eat grass wouldn't be long adding up, freedom and dawgone noticed a lift in milk yield when housing cows back in spring, id say part of this is down to less walking and the rest down to low dm grass which will decrease intakes long before it gets to 12%. The only test results for grass that I've seen are from moorepark done about 10 years ago and while they were all in and around 1ufl I don't think it would be as consistent on farm and probably vary from about .85-1 possibly less depending on how good grass management is

yosemitesam1 · 20-07-2016 05:45PM

kowtow wrote: »

Out of interest, and in the interest of widening the discussion a little bit, how exactly do we calculate milk from grass?

I can see how to do it backwards, by subtracting concentrates fed from milk sold, but presumably that will vary enormously with cow type and overall system - there will be a point where you are feeding lots of grass and lots of nuts, and the substitution of one for another isn't really paying you back yet because you are caught between two stools..

Or can you go forwards saying, a given cow will do 18l from grass, then 0.3 l / kg up to x kg (substitution), then 0.9l/kg up to z kg where she maxes out?

is it the actual model/equations you want? have most of the different ones here and can send them on if so...

whelan2 · 20-07-2016 07:14PM

pbm way ahead http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/heres-irelands-most-popular-ai-bulls-in-2015/

Coolfresian · 20-07-2016 08:55PM

Nice calves? Used a good bit of pzi, cross them back on Holstein cows, get great calves.

whelan2 · 20-07-2016 09:21PM

Coolfresian wrote: »

Nice calves? Used a good bit of pzi, cross them back on Holstein cows, get great calves.

I have PBM heifers in milking, they are nice heifers

whelan2 · 21-07-2016 05:59PM

Put heifers that are calving next month through parlour for first time. Took a while but they all went in. No refusals

trixi2011 · 21-07-2016 07:18PM

whelan2 wrote: »

Put heifers that are calving next month through parlour for first time. Took a while but they all went in. No refusals

Often just lock.them in.the collection yard with the front gates of the parlour open and let them train thereselfs walk threw the first time

Keepgrowing · 21-07-2016 07:24PM

whelan2 wrote: »

Put heifers that are calving next month through parlour for first time. Took a while but they all went in. No refusals

Depending on how many heifers you have it's good practise to put in with milking herd prior to calving. Shows them the ropes. Not very doable in spring though

whelan2 · 21-07-2016 08:22PM

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Depending on how many heifers you have it's good practise to put in with milking herd prior to calving. Shows them the ropes. Not very doable in spring though

I put them in with dry cows all dry cows walked in to parlour and all heifers stayed behind. Saves slot of hassle wh not they know where they are going when they calve down

Keepgrowing · 21-07-2016 08:59PM

whelan2 wrote: »

I put them in with dry cows all dry cows walked in to parlour and all heifers stayed behind. Saves slot of hassle wh not they know where they are going when they calve down

When we calved heifers we just ran with main herd till close to calving. Within a few days they'd be walking in with the cows eating a few nuts

whelan2 · 21-07-2016 09:15PM

PLan is to put them through parlour twice a week and put tar on them, wasnt brave enough today so just put spray on tar on them. Dosed them for fluke and worms too

blackdog1 · 21-07-2016 11:51PM

If anyone can afford it I would recommend forward buying barley. I have a french student and he said his harvest has just started and the yields are half what it was last year . 128 but I recon it could rise. 215 a tonne for malting atm in France. How's your harvest going dawg?

Sam Kade · 22-07-2016 08:14AM

Does any one else get 100% of their milk cheque landed into their account and the expenses on credit? Unless the co op think that I'm broke that's what they have being doing with my account since March.

Keepgrowing · 22-07-2016 08:23AM

Sam Kade wrote: »

Does any one else get 100% of their milk cheque landed into their account and the expenses on credit? Unless the co op think that I'm broke that's what they have being doing with my account since March.

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