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Up to 85 civilians killed by mistake

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Comments

  • #182
    unseenfootage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭unseenfootage


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    The result is not contentious. *Everyone* agrees it's a major human catastrophe with devastating consequnces for affected families.

    But the moral culpability is absolutely relevant.

    To illustrate, let use use a less politically-charged example. Is there a difference in the degree moral culpability borne by a man who walks up to a stranger in the street and shoots them in the face, and a policeman who kills a suspect whom he genuinely, but mistakenly, believes poses a real & imminent danger to human life?

    Nobody in their right mind could say that both the policeman and the murderer share identical moral culpability.

    Both acts are wrongful, and I think both are deserving of punishment, but should be punished to different degrees.

    A pilot who was merely in possession of imperfect information, or who made a reasonable error, if that is what happened, should not be treated like a terrorist. It is fundamentally dishonest to place him in the same moral category as a terrorist who goes out with the clear & unambiguous intention to murder as many civilians as he can.

    The analogy is flawed.
    ISIS began after US/UK coalition invaded Iraq.

    If you rework your example to take the invasion into account then it should began like this : " A bunch of cops drive into a rough neighborhood, kill some of the cops, hang the sheriff and kill/rape/torture some of the citizens..."

    Could you continue from there please.


  • #183
    MaroonAndGreen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭MaroonAndGreen


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Your answer to stopping the deaths of innocent civilians is

    They kill 80 of ours

    We kill 10x as many of theirs?

    Seriously? To stop the deaths of innocent men women and children you want to kIll 10x as many innocent men women and children?

    Fcuking keyboard warriors like you make me laugh.

    I dont mean civilians I meant 800 terrorists. Some gurnicks on here taking any excuse to jump on someone with an alternative opinion


  • #184
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unseenfootage wrote: »
    The analogy is flawed.
    ISIS began after US/UK coalition invaded Iraq.
    This attack apparently happened in Syria, not Iraq. It would be an insult to the readership of this forum to engage with your daft example on that basis alone, not to mention the overarching pong of irrationality emanating from it.


  • #185
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    unseenfootage wrote: »
    Define: Arrest.

    If one needs that explaining....


  • #186
    unseenfootage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭unseenfootage


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    This attack apparently happened in Syria, not Iraq. It would be an insult to the readership of this forum to engage with your daft example on that basis alone, not to mention the overarching pong of irrationality emanating from it.

    Your analogy is far too trivial.


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  • #187
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,828 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    This story isn't being covered because it's very inconvenient for readers. If they cared, and clicked on the story, it would receive loads of coverage. But it isn't because people don't want to read about this tragedy. We get the media we deserve.

    In the wake of so many lone wolf attacks on our way of life - specifically targeted to hit entertainment venues, airports etc- we in the West are naturally going to feel uneasy. We keep hearing that ISIS is losing ground but they can attack Europe 2-3 times a week. We *need* to feel like we're winning.

    People don't wanna hear that the US just ****ed up majorly and killed more people than the death toll in Nice. They don't wanna click on that. They don't wanna click on a story from yesterday about US-backed rebels in Syria that beheaded a boy younger than 12. It's messy, tragic, and has scary implications for the narrative we've all been running with - that we're awesome and in time we'll battle back ISIS gains in a couple of years. This is a completely new type of enemy and we can't assume ISIS will be or can be defeated decisively.


  • #188
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    This story isn't being covered because it's very inconvenient for readers. If they cared, and clicked on the story, it would receive loads of coverage. But it isn't because people don't want to read about this tragedy. We get the media we deserve.

    In the wake of so many lone wolf attacks on our way of life - specifically targeted to hit entertainment venues, airports etc- we in the West are naturally going to feel uneasy. We keep hearing that ISIS is losing ground but they can attack Europe 2-3 times a week. We *need* to feel like we're winning.

    People don't wanna hear that the US just ****ed up majorly and killed more people than the death toll in Nice. They don't wanna click on that. They don't wanna click on a story from yesterday about US-backed rebels in Syria that beheaded a boy younger than 12. It's messy, tragic, and has scary implications for the narrative we've all been running with - that we're awesome and in time we'll battle back ISIS gains in a couple of years. This is a completely new type of enemy and we can't assume ISIS will be or can be defeated decisively.

    When was it Verified ?


  • #189
    unseenfootage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭unseenfootage


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    This story isn't being covered because it's very inconvenient for readers. If they cared, and clicked on the story, it would receive loads of coverage. But it isn't because people don't want to read about this tragedy. We get the media we deserve.

    In the wake of so many lone wolf attacks on our way of life - specifically targeted to hit entertainment venues, airports etc- we in the West are naturally going to feel uneasy. We keep hearing that ISIS is losing ground but they can attack Europe 2-3 times a week. We *need* to feel like we're winning.

    People don't wanna hear that the US just ****ed up majorly and killed more people than the death toll in Nice. They don't wanna click on that. They don't wanna click on a story from yesterday about US-backed rebels in Syria that beheaded a boy younger than 12. It's messy, tragic, and has scary implications for the narrative we've all been running with - that we're awesome and in time we'll battle back ISIS gains in a couple of years. This is a completely new type of enemy and we can't assume ISIS will be or can be defeated decisively.

    In other news. Islamist terrorists shoots down French helicopter, killing 2 special forces.

    Interesting post btw.

    The worrying thing is that when ISIS loses all their territory they'll morph into a purely terrorist organisation (without governing anything,) and then focus more on penetrating the west and/or inspiring lone wolf attacks . Unsettling ISIS from their strongholds will not necessarily defeat them.


  • #190
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Both attackers meant to kill. Calling this a "mistake" does not justify the fact that it is blatant state sanctioned murder of innocent men women and children

    Asserting something as a fact does not make it a fact.
    For your post to be be true you must produce evidence of the state sanction for this attack precisely as an attack intended and planned to kil these people in the full knowledge that they were innocent.

    If you have that, you have my full support.

    If, on the other hand, you don't you have simply indulged in the empty rhetoric of outrage.


  • #191
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    unseenfootage wrote: »
    They deliberately use these weapons in an urban warfare environment, knowing full well that there will be "collateral damage" among the civilian population.

    This, exactly this. Their knowledge of the consequences of their attacks on civilian areas makes them as guilty as any of the groups they've termed "terrorists". When, for instance, the IRA bombed economic targets in Britain and killed civilians in the process all the usual old poppy-loving apologists for imperialism would scream "terrorism!" and claim the civilians were "targeted" by the IRA.

    But in this case? Serious case of déjà vu.


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  • #192
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Deleted User wrote: »
    This, exactly this. Their knowledge of the consequences of their attacks on civilian areas makes them as guilty as any of the groups they've termed "terrorists". When, for instance, the IRA bombed economic targets in Britain and killed civilians in the process all the usual old poppy-loving apologists for imperialism would scream "terrorism!" and claim the civilians were "targeted" by the IRA.

    But in this case? Serious case of déjà vu.

    The IRA bombed America ?


  • #193
    unseenfootage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭unseenfootage


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    The IRA bombed America ?

    What is up with all your one liners that are usually questions?

    Where did the poster mention anything about the IRA bombing America?


  • #194
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    unseenfootage wrote: »
    What is up with all your one liners that are usually questions?

    Where did the poster mention anything about the IRA bombing America?

    The thread is about the USA bombing civilians. Fail to see what the UK has to do with it.


  • #195
    unseenfootage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭unseenfootage


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    The thread is about the USA bombing civilians. Fail to see what the UK has to do with it.

    Be mindful that it is the US coalition and not just the US that is responsible. There are other atrocities in the region where other countries are also involved in. I don't think that the discussion should be only about the USA just because, on this occasion the US is mainly responsible.


  • #196
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MaroonAndGreen wrote: »
    They take 80 French, then the French need to take 800 of them. Only way this is going to be stopped, horrific as it is.

    "They"? As John Hume used to say on the telly almost every single day back in the bad days "an eye for an eye makes everyone blind".

    In fairness, though, yours is a singularly silly idea - a remedial understanding would tell you repression makes revolutionary groups stronger and their leadership would welcome a Western attack on innocent civilians for that reason.


  • #197
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    The thread is about the USA bombing civilians. Fail to see what the UK has to do with it.

    It was an example, give over.


  • #198
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    And when some young Muslim outraged at this committs another Nice or Paris like attack then he will be labeled a terrorist.

    As he should be.


  • #199
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    unseenfootage wrote: »
    Be mindful that it is the US coalition and not just the US that is responsible. There are other atrocities in the region where other countries are also involved in. I don't think that the discussion should be only about the USA just because, on this occasion the US is mainly responsible.

    Oh It's been verified then ? Could be Turkey or even France now apparently.


  • #200
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    It was an example, give over.

    Example of what the UK killing the 85 ?


  • #201
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    The IRA bombed America ?

    You ask another stupid question?


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  • #202
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You ask another stupid question?

    Nope just questioning the relevance to America.


  • #203
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Example of what the UK killing the 85 ?

    You're just being obtuse for the sake of it now, stop.


  • #204
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yes, indeed you did.

    What does that even mean ?


  • #205
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    You're just being obtuse for the sake of it now, stop.

    No I'm not the poster mentioned poppy waving imperialist in the UK, Who did not do this bombing.


  • #206
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    No I'm not the poster mentioned poppy waving imperialist in the UK, Who did not do this bombing.

    Nor did he claim that the British did it, had you actually bothered to read the post properly. He was (obviously) drawing parallels between the US bombing without due care for civilians, and the IRAs penchant for doing similar. Albeit with differing methods.


  • #207
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    Nor did he claim that the British did it, had you actually bothered to read the post properly. He was (obviously) drawing parallels between the US bombing without due care for civilians, and the IRAs penchant for doing similar. Albeit with differing methods.

    Fair enough, Must have missed where the USA use fertiliser bombs in vans and alike.


  • #208
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Fair enough, Must have missed where the USA use fertiliser bombs in vans and alike.

    Now you're not reading my posts correctly either, quelle surprise. Try reading the last two words of it.


  • #209
    unseenfootage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭unseenfootage


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    If one needs that explaining....
    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    When was it Verified ?
    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    The IRA bombed America ?
    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    The thread is about the USA bombing civilians. Fail to see what the UK has to do with it.
    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Oh It's been verified then ? Could be Turkey or even France now apparently.
    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Example of what the UK killing the 85 ?
    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Nope just questioning the relevance to America.
    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    What does that even mean ?
    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    No I'm not the poster mentioned poppy waving imperialist in the UK, Who did not do this bombing.

    You're being a bit obtuse with your line of questioning, one line at a time.
    Also most of the posters are going with the reports from the activists in Syria that are being carried by the MSM that multiple bombings in the Manbij area did occur.
    You're welcome to wait for verification but please do not question everybody else repeatedly on the same point. We get it. You are all about American verification.
    Try also to engage with others more meaningfully. Your words are not so powerful that you can convince us with sarcastic one liners. Most of the time we have to ask you what you're talking about.


  • #210
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    unseenfootage wrote: »
    You're being a bit obtuse with your line of questioning, one line at a time.
    Also most of the posters are going with the reports from the activists in Syria that are being carried by the MSM that multiple bombings in the Manbij area did occur.
    You're welcome to wait for verification but please do not question everybody else repeatedly on the same point. We get it. You are all about American verification.
    Try also to engage with others more meaningfully. Your words are not so powerful that you can convince us with sarcastic one liners. Most of the time we have to ask you what you're talking about.

    Oh when did this change from being a Discussion board ?


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  • #211
    unseenfootage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭unseenfootage


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Oh when did this change from being a Discussion board ?

    Firing off sarcastic and obtuse one line questions is not discussion.


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