Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

Sam Russell · 18-07-2016 11:13PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

You are obviously young and misinformed. That link means nothing. I know more about this than you will ever realise. I'll step back for now.

Here is Olivia Mitchel (FG) writing to the Irish Times about DU and the PPT. [Sep 2, 2005]

The 'Interconnector' was IE/IR speak for DU - opposed by FG because it would mean no rail services for Dublin if it was built. [ .. also no rail services for Dublin if it was not built!]

Grandeeod · 18-07-2016 11:19PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Here is Olivia Mitchel (FG) writing to the Irish Times about DU and the PPT.

The 'Interconnector' was IE/IR speak for DU - opposed by FG because it would mean no rail services for Dublin if it was built. [ .. also no rail services for Dublin if it was not built!]

What are spouting on about Sam???

I know what the Interconnector is. I know all about it being renamed DART UNDERGROUND. BUT...in 1999 the proposal under the NDP 2000-2006 was for a cross river connection between Spencer Dock and Barrow Street, along with using the PPT for then Kildare services.

Do you know anything about things pre 2003???

GM228 · 19-07-2016 11:15AM

Grandeeod wrote: »

What are spouting on about Sam???

I know what the Interconnector is. I know all about it being renamed DART UNDERGROUND. BUT...in 1999 the proposal under the NDP 2000-2006 was for a cross river connection between Spencer Dock and Barrow Street, along with using the PPT for then Kildare services.

Do you know anything about things pre 2003???

That's correct, in 1999 IE actually proposed both the Interconnector and the DART Underground to run simultaneously.

The original IE Press Release:-

DART Underground - Dublin's Interconnector

Iarnród Éireann has commenced work on a new underground second DART line through the heart of the city centre.

The DART Underground rail line, from Docklands to Heuston Station, will complete the quadrupling of the Greater Dublin area's rail service capacity from 25 million passenger journeys annually now to 100 million passenger journeys.

DART Underground - Dublin's Interconnector will be the single most important piece of infrastructure in the state to ensure a modal shift from private to public transport, and free future generations from the gridlock which cripples the Greater Dublin area today. It is a central part of the Government's Transport 21 ten-year transport investment plan. It also links all rail modes - DART, Commuter, Intercity, Luas and Metro - to form an integrated cohesive network.

This project is funded by the Irish Government under the Transport 21 investment programme. Elements of this project will be undertaken as a Public Private Partnership (PPP), Iarnród Éireann and the Department of Transport are currently examining a number of options for PPP.

The line will dramatically change Iarnród Éireann's DART and Commuter network. Northern line DART services from Balbriggan and Howth will branch off the existing DART line after Clontarf Road, going underground at:

Docklands Station where the line will connect with the Red Luas. It continues to Pearse, connecting with what will be the Maynooth/ Dunboyne (M3) to Bray/Greystones DART line; then at
St Stephen's Green it connects with the Green Luas and the Metro to the airport before continuing to Christ Church and
Heuston, linking with Red Luas, and Iarnród Éireann's Intercity and Commuter services before continuing above ground to Hazelhatch.

Iarnród Éireann is already working with the Rail Procurement Agency to develop plans for key interchanges such as St Stephen's Green, which will see DART interchange with Luas and Metro with the opening of the Interconnector; and other key interchanges around the network associated with Transport 21.

The Docklands to Heuston Interconnector will deliver:

A second high capacity DART line through the heart of the city centre, a 5.2 kilometre underground line Significantly increased frequency and capacity for services on the Northern, Maynooth and Kildare lines - the three fastest growing population corridors in the country
A fully integrated rail network for the Greater Dublin area, linking all modes - DART, Commuter, Intercity, LUAS and Metro - and ensuring that suburb to suburb as well as suburb to city centre journeys can be made by a frequent, high capacity public transport network
Two high capacity DART lines proposed as Balbriggan/Howth to Hazelhatch; and Maynooth/Dunboyne(M3) to Bray/Greystones, with DART extensions to some routes likely to be delivered in advance of the Interconnector.

A quadrupling of the number of passenger journeys by DART and Commuter rail annually - up from 25 million today to 100 million. A critical piece of urban, regional and national infrastructure.

Current Status

Following the identification of station locations and route alignment, Iarnród Éireann is commencing the preparation for the Railway Order application. As well as the design, engineering and technical aspects of this phase, an extensive programme of public consultation is planned, up to and including the formal public consultation which will precede the Railway Order application in Autumn 2009.

A series of public consultation evenings have been held in July 2007 and August 2008 at various locations along the proposed route to inform residents and businesspeople along the route on the construction process and the benefits that the service will bring upon completion of the project. Further public consultation evenings are planned for the near future.

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dart_underground.asp

As you can see DU and the Interconnector were actually two seperate projects as part of one overall project.

Following the publication of the Dublin Suburban Rail Strategic Review in 2000 and A Platform for Change in 2001 the proposals for DU were pressed ahead with and the interconnector seemingly forgotten about and over time the name "interconnector" was often mis-reported as the original name for the DU project.

Grandeeod · 19-07-2016 12:37PM

GM228 wrote: »

That's correct, in 1999 IE actually proposed both the Interconnector and the DART Underground to run simultaneously.

The original IE Press Release:-

As you can see DU and the Interconnector were actually two seperate projects as part of one overall project.

Following the publication of the Dublin Suburban Rail Strategic Review in 2000 and A Platform for Change in 2001 the proposals for DU were pressed ahead with and the interconnector seemingly forgotten about and over time the name "interconnector" was often mis-reported as the original name for the DU project.

Cheers.

And just to confirm my earlier point a rail and road bridge crossing of the Liffey between Spencer Dock and Barrow Street was proposed in early 1999 in the Strategic Planning Guidelines for the Greater Dublin area after the idea was suggested by the Dublin Chamber of Commerce.

GM228 · 19-07-2016 03:11PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

Cheers.

And just to confirm my earlier point a rail and road bridge crossing of the Liffey between Spencer Dock and Barrow Street was proposed in early 1999 in the Strategic Planning Guidelines for the Greater Dublin area after the idea was suggested by the Dublin Chamber of Commerce.

The over ground option was rejected by Dublin Corporation planners almost straight away in favour of the underground option.

BuffyBot · 19-07-2016 03:20PM

Any chance we can steer back to topic, folks? DART underground etc is a whole other thread

Boo27 · 20-07-2016 05:55PM

Ok can someone just answer me this

I live in Newbridge and work beside Connolly station .. Will this new ppt work well for me ?? Anyone .,

LXFlyer · 20-07-2016 06:04PM

Boo27 wrote: »

Ok can someone just answer me this

I live in Newbridge and work beside Connolly station .. Will this new ppt work well for me ?? Anyone .,

That will depend upon the times of the trains,which have yet to be published (they may not suit you), but in theory yes.

There should be two direct trains per hour at peak times and one per hour off peak.

loyatemu · 21-07-2016 11:03AM

will all the Commuter services that currently start/finish in Pearse be extended to GCD as a result of the track changes (presumably they could extend some of these immediately)?

LXFlyer · 21-07-2016 11:27AM

loyatemu wrote: »

will all the Commuter services that currently start/finish in Pearse be extended to GCD as a result of the track changes (presumably they could extend some of these immediately)?

I would imagine that off-peak they certainly will, but at peak times it will depend upon the running times (they may turn around immediately from Pearse), or whether the sets are going to lay over/split in the Boston/Pearse sidings.

I certainly wouldn't assume that everything will go to GCD.

You won't see any immediate changes as that would involve different set rosters - sets do lay over and split in the Boston/Pearse sidings.

XPS_Zero · 21-07-2016 08:31PM

Pardon my ignorance guys, apologies if this has been asked.

I noticed a third unused track in GCD over time, wondered if this was the platform side to be used for western extended trains. But the northbound DARTs seem to be using it now, so is this the one being used or not?

Also is it just Kildare/Portlaose trains?

Is it just Dublin regional commuter, will any intercity trains be crossing the tunnel? Or are they just doing this to exploit limited gaps in schedule while the proper underground is built?

LXFlyer · 21-07-2016 09:16PM

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance guys, apologies if this has been asked.

I noticed a third unused track in GCD over time, wondered if this was the platform side to be used for western extended trains. But the northbound DARTs seem to be using it now, so is this the one being used or not?

Also is it just Kildare/Portlaose trains?

Is it just Dublin regional commuter, will any intercity trains be crossing the tunnel? Or are they just doing this to exploit limited gaps in schedule while the proper underground is built?

You really need to start reading the threads - both of your posts here and in the LUAS BXD thread have been answered multiple times over, including my own post directly before yours.

Platform 2 at GCD is now a turnback platform that will be used for Kildare line trains. Other commuter trains may use it - we don't know yet as timetables have yet to be published. See diagrams on page 28 of this thread.

No Intercity trains will be using it - they will remain at Heuston or Connolly as they do now. They already have tight enough turnarounds.

The whole point of this is to utilise the extra capacity that the City Centre Resignalling Project delivers across the Loop Line bridge.

trellheim · 25-07-2016 12:49AM

An article in Modern Railways about the resignalling mentions that loco hauled trains are now banned in normal circumstances beyond say Tara st southbound ?

the dark phantom · 25-07-2016 12:58AM

ClovenHoof wrote: »

and how many years did Irish Rail say 'no demand', 'modern trains don't fit in the tunnel', 'everybody wants to go to Hueston'

Looking back at the excuses now and reading this post it is comical and tragic at the same time.

IRISHRail. The clue is in the name.

Jamie2k9 · 25-07-2016 12:58AM

trellheim wrote: »

An article in Modern Railways about the resignalling mentions that loco hauled trains are now banned in normal circumstances beyond say Tara st southbound ?

That' makes no sense at all, I don't see the end of RPSI or maintenance operations, there would be no other reason to have them anyway.

Got a link?

flyingsnail · 25-07-2016 09:32AM

trellheim wrote: »

An article in Modern Railways about the resignalling mentions that loco hauled trains are now banned in normal circumstances beyond say Tara st southbound ?

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

That' makes no sense at all, I don't see the end of RPSI or maintenance operations, there would be no other reason to have them anyway.

Got a link?

A half truth, scheduled services (of which there are none) are not permitted. All special and emergency workings are allowed subject to a 20mph speed limit. RPSI and per way would fall into the special category.

Captain Chaos · 25-07-2016 12:06PM

What's the reason for having a lower limit for loco hauled trains south of Connolly and this was only recent in the past few months. Is it braking distance related?

flyingsnail · 25-07-2016 12:20PM

I would say its braking related, they said the city centre resignalling has been optimised for DMU /EMU traffic, which tend to have better braking performance. The limit is only in place from Connolly to Sandymount so it’s not that big of a deal.

goingnowhere · 25-07-2016 02:25PM

Loco hauled remains permitted but not for scheduled operations, the weedkiller train has been through since. Last locomotive hauled scheduled service was the Arklow morning service back in 2007 ish.

A blanket 20mph limit applies from Connolly to Sandymount for all locomotive hauled trains.

The signalling is optimised for EMU/DMU operation to ensure maximum capacity in the core city area and is designed to reflect the EMU/DMU EP brake performance which is vastly better than vacuum or straight air. The CAWS/ATP codes also reflect this.

None of the platforms at Grand Canal Dock are long enough for a full intercity train of any type so its all academic really.

spacetweek · 25-07-2016 05:56PM

the dark phantom wrote: »

IRISHRail. The clue is in the name.

What? Does anyone else get that?

spacetweek · 25-07-2016 05:57PM

the dark phantom wrote: »

IRISHRail. The clue is in the name.

What? Does anyone else get that?

the dark phantom · 25-07-2016 06:53PM

spacetweek wrote: »

What? Does anyone else get that?

It should need to be explained. I'm pretty much agreeing with ClovenHoof's post. The comments in his post regarding IrishRail sound like something from Father Ted..

trellheim · 26-07-2016 06:11PM

No link I am afraid, it was in the magazine. Was there any documentation about the restriction anywhere else - surprised we are only seeing it now.

LXFlyer · 26-07-2016 06:17PM

trellheim wrote: »

No link I am afraid, it was in the magazine. Was there any documentation about the restriction anywhere else - surprised we are only seeing it now.

The only place that would be is in IE's internal weekly circular.

It would appear in the IRRS Journal in due course.

GM228 · 26-07-2016 08:31PM

trellheim wrote: »

No link I am afraid, it was in the magazine. Was there any documentation about the restriction anywhere else - surprised we are only seeing it now.

As lxflyer has said this would be advertised internally only.

Flyingsnail and goingnowhere are also correct in their explanation of the situation. Loco hauled trains can still operate subject to 20 MPH, but not scheduled loco hauled trains which as already pointed out don't operate on the line anyway.

The Wanderer caught a picture of the new speed boards which were installed between Connolly and Sandymount to reflect this.

https://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/RailtoursPreservedRailways/2016/RPSI-Steam-Dreams-Emerald-Isle/i-ZhCxTpF

trellheim · 26-07-2016 08:57PM

Perhaps I am missing the point here ( not a signaling designer ) Surely a loco hauled train ( Say Enterprise ) at Malahide and a DART at Malahide should be able to pull up within the same distance if they see a red ( assuming they see the yellow or whatever so they have the same warning ) ? If they can't then whats it doing on the rails in the first place, and if so why this restriction

Vic_08 · 26-07-2016 09:08PM

trellheim wrote: »

Perhaps I am missing the point here ( not a signaling designer ) Surely a loco hauled train ( Say Enterprise ) at Malahide and a DART at Malahide should be able to pull up within the same distance if they see a red ( assuming they see the yellow or whatever so they have the same warning ) ? If they can't then whats it doing on the rails in the first place, and if so why this restriction

Different traction has different acceleration and braking performance. This has always been true and the speed limits are altered to take this into account. No stock is allowed travel faster than it's braking ability to stop within the minimum signalling distances on a given line.

Light engine movements for example have lower limits than the same loco with a rake of coaches as the braking ability of a light engine is less than the full rake.

GM228 · 26-07-2016 09:30PM

Vic_08 wrote: »

Different traction has different acceleration and braking performance. This has always been true and the speed limits are altered to take this into account. No stock is allowed travel faster than it's braking ability to stop within the minimum signalling distances on a given line.

Light engine movements for example have lower limits than the same loco with a rake of coaches as the braking ability of a light engine is less than the full rake.

Spot on, that's the reason for the 20 MPH limit between Connolly and Sandymount for loco hauled trains to allow them stop within the distance of the signals as locomotive hauled trains take longer to stop.

The reason why lower limits don't apply on orher parts of the network because the signalling systems are already optimised for loco hauled trains as opposed to DMUs/EMUs and so no lower limits need apply.

Jamie2k9 · 28-07-2016 07:35PM

A schedule has gone up on website, likely by mistake and shows Newbridge-GCD in 1h-1h10m with some services using turn back at Hazelhatch.

Likely gone by morning.

GM228 · 28-07-2016 07:54PM

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

A schedule has gone up on website, likely by mistake and shows Newbridge-GCD in 1h-1h10m with some services using turn back at Hazelhatch.

Likely gone by morning.

Any link? Might be gone already?

Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

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