The Planet X conspiracy

ScumLord wrote: »

Why would any person just spontaneously come up with the theory that the earth is actually a globe? The thing is the historical record clearly shows the sumerians did think the earth was flat. It wasn't really until the Greeks come along that the globe earth theory pops up and even then it's not until Islam comes along that people have the mathematical tools and the ability to cover vast territories due to their empire to even be able to prove the theory. That's in AD, thousands of years after the sumerians.

It was more like the 3rd century BC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8cbIWMv0rI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes#Measurement_of_the_Earth.27s_circumference

But it required maths that the Sumerians didn't yet have access to.

ScumLord wrote: »

One star out of place would have been an oddity, we don't often see to many records of comets and the likes, they may have seen objects like that in the sky as fleeting and not worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence as the planets.

Actually the ancient did notice comets when they turned up and tended to freak out about them and recorded them.
http://deepimpact.umd.edu/science/comets-cultures.html

However this just makes the complete lack of mention of any of the events Sitchin describes in any other culture a bit troubling for the theory...

ScumLord wrote: »

Why would any person just spontaneously come up with the theory that the earth is actually a globe? The thing is the historical record clearly shows the sumerians did think the earth was flat. It wasn't really until the Greeks come along that the globe earth theory pops up and even then it's not until Islam comes along that people have the mathematical tools and the ability to cover vast territories due to their empire to even be able to prove the theory. That's in AD, thousands of years after the sumerians.

Ever been in a boat on the ocean? The curvature of the earth is fairly obvious. Eratosthanes The Greek calculated the size of the globe to within a few percent of its known value in the 3rd century BC

Yeah, I think if aliens do know we exist they're studying us and we'll never see them until we become a space faring people, our only value to them is as something to study, other than that there's nothing on this planet that they'd need.. But that's a flight of fancy. I'm just imagining what ifs, I can start linking pieces of evidence to my theory but since I just came up with it in a flight of fancy it's no more a valid theory than star wars is a valid description of what's going on in the next galaxy over..

This planet has loads of stuff that a spacefaring society might find useful, Air and water for example. We dont have a lot of life supporting planets to compare resources against, so we dont know what we have an abundance of.

It might but at the same time it may not stand out as anything all that unusual to ancients. They would be used to seeing shooting stars, comets and everything would have been much clearer to them back then. One star out of place would have been an oddity, we don't often see to many records of comets and the likes, they may have seen objects like that in the sky as fleeting and not worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence as the planets. If something's important to the ancients they write it down. Mars has an erratic orbit from our perspective too, it dances around the sky, it is somewhat counter intuitive to think it's the same thing as jupiter and sets a precedent for stars to do strange things.

A lot of ancient religions were based on stellar observations, so they paid very close attention to the sky at night. Anything new or unusual would stwnd out like dogs balls

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

This planet has loads of stuff that a spacefaring society might find useful, Air and water for example. We dont have a lot of life supporting planets to compare resources against, so we dont know what we have an abundance of.

There is an abundance of comets in the outer solar system. They would have more water than Earth would and it would be far easier to extract it from them.
And then you can make oxygen from water easily.

These resources would be equally abundant in an alien's home solar system or any number of systems between there and here. There's not much on Earth that can't be found elsewhere in space in a place or form that is much less less energy expensive to gather.

Ok, name another point in the solar system with an atmosphere and liquid water on its surface

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

Ok, name another point in the solar system with an atmosphere and liquid water on its surface

Lots of places in the solar system have atmosphere. The composition of our atmosphere is easy to find in deep space, since molecuar nitrogen was recently discovered in comets. And you can easily harvest oxygen from water.
Lots of places have water ice.
If an alien race can master interstellar travel, they can probably melt ice.

What elements are only available on Earth or easier to access on Earth?

cfuserkildare

Ha Ha,

All this because of a Doctor Who series!!

King Mob wrote: »

Lots of places in the solar system have atmosphere. The composition of our atmosphere is easy to find in deep space, since molecuar nitrogen was recently discovered in comets. And you can easily harvest oxygen from water.
Lots of places have water ice.
If an alien race can master interstellar travel, they can probably melt ice.

What elements are only available on Earth or easier to access on Earth?

The main element available on earth is the water, in liquid form, and the atmosphere.

Lets say you are driving from Calais to Moscow, you're bored and half way across Ukraine, there in the vast flat expanse is a roadside cafe, now you have snacks in the car, and no one really Needs to stop, but you and I both know that the car is coming to a halt if for no other reason than to have a gawp.

Same thing in my theory, just a bit longer a drive

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

The main element available on earth is the water, in liquid form, and the atmosphere.

Well first off, water is not a element, it' a molecule.
Second water is abundant in comets. It takes far far less energy to get close to a comet, drill out some ice and melt it.
To extract water from Earth you need to dive deep into the Sun's gravity well. Then either land or send down landing ships, collect water, spend huge amounts of energy getting the water back up into orbit, then even more amounts of energy to get back out of the sun's gravity well.

If they are visiting here, it's not for resources.

Yeah, im not saying they visited for resoursces, I'm saying that those 'elements' which make our planet unique in this solar system are enough to merit a look. Ever gone into a random obscure museum or gallery just for the craic?

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

Yeah, im not saying they visited for resoursces, I'm saying that those 'elements' which make our planet unique in this solar system are enough to merit a look. Ever gone into a random obscure museum or gallery just for the craic?

You said:

This planet has loads of stuff that a spacefaring society might find useful, Air and water for example. We dont have a lot of life supporting planets to compare resources against, so we dont know what we have an abundance of.

Air and water are available and easier to get elsewhere. So they are not useful to a spacefaring society.

I agree that they perhaps might visit us out of curiosity, however the conspiracy theory clearly suggests that the aliens were visiting because they wanted resources like gold. (Which is also abundant and easier to get from elsewhere.)

King Mob wrote: »

You said:

Air and water are available and easier to get elsewhere. So they are not useful to a spacefaring society.

I agree that they perhaps might visit us out of curiosity, however the conspiracy theory clearly suggests that the aliens were visiting because they wanted resources like gold. (Which is also abundant and easier to get from elsewhere.)

So we are as far as saying

1: Aliens visited us just out of curiosity

2: Planet x could actually be real

http://www.space.news/2016-06-07-mystery-unraveling-among-the-cosmos-planet-x-could-be-to-blame-for-the-mass-extinction-of-the-dinosaurs-astrophysicists-claim.html

If you believe in the above then anything is possible I think

Believing the above and then Arguing if they visited for earths resources yes or no doesn't fly ... It might seen illogical to you but with our limited comprehension of the whole subject its impossible to conclude what is correct

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

Ever been in a boat on the ocean? The curvature of the earth is fairly obvious. Eratosthanes The Greek calculated the size of the globe to within a few percent of its known value in the 3rd century BC

I have been on a boat and I don't see how that makes the curvature of the earth obvious. It's true with larger boats it looks like they're sinking below the horizon, but I still don't think that's automatically going to make people assume the earth is flat. I think you're applying modern common knowledge to a people that had a completely different type of common knowledge. Maybe the Greeks were just that good, maybe that one clue was enough for them to realise the earth was completely alien to the accepted dogma. I think it was probably the result of a lot of factors coming together.

This planet has loads of stuff that a spacefaring society might find useful, Air and water for example. We dont have a lot of life supporting planets to compare resources against, so we dont know what we have an abundance of.

We don't really have an abundance of any element, they're all easier to find floating in space. Air is just a cocktail of gases. Jupiter could be said to have air, it's just made of different elements in different quantities. Venus has an atmosphere, it's just toxic to humans.

About the only thing I can think life brings to a planet is energy stores. Life essentially takes the energy of the sun and traps it here. Luckily we've already exploited the easiest of that energy to get at.

A lot of ancient religions were based on stellar observations, so they paid very close attention to the sky at night. Anything new or unusual would stwnd out like dogs balls

It would, but if it isn't recurring it may not survive generation to generation in the historical record.

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

Ok, name another point in the solar system with an atmosphere and liquid water on its surface

I think most planets have an atmosphere and water. The moon Titan has an atmosphere, Europa is almost entirely made of water.

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

Yeah, im not saying they visited for resoursces, I'm saying that those 'elements' which make our planet unique in this solar system are enough to merit a look. Ever gone into a random obscure museum or gallery just for the craic?

I have, but I can't assume a space faring civilization would be willing to travel to earth for the craic. Aliens may have traveled here specifically to study humans. But if that's the case interfering with us would completely ruin their studies.

ScumLord wrote: »

I think most planets have an atmosphere and water. The moon Titan has an atmosphere, Europa is almost entirely made of water.

What would be the most interesting place to visit in our solar system coming from outside ?

ScumLord wrote: »

I have, but I can't assume a space faring civilization would be willing to travel to earth for the craic. Aliens may have traveled here specifically to study humans. But if that's the case interfering with us would completely ruin their studies.

Why ?

weisses wrote: »

What would be the most interesting place to visit in our solar system coming from outside ?

Well it's probably going to be earth, but that's based on our own ideals. Maybe life is common place and they'd have no more interest in us than a weed at the side of the road. I doubt it, I'm sure if they found earth they'd be fascinated with us.

Why ?

Because it would ruin their research. Just like our biologists studying animals in the wild do their best not to interfere so they can record their behaviour without contaminating the habitat.

The aliens could make contact straight away but they'd have little to gain from the experience. However watching us develop into a space faring species could give them insight into their own distant past.

I think it's likely life is abundant in this galaxy, we're finding the building blocks of life littered all over our own solar system, they're just waiting for the right conditions to flourish. So from a distance earth might not look all that unique. Intelligent species could be extremely rare though. Evolution isn't heading towards intelligent species, it's not an inevitable part of life evolving. We are the result of a random series of events that may never be replicated on another planet.

So if aliens did show up we could be the only other intelligent life they've ever found. The one opportunity to study intelligent life evolving.

ScumLord wrote: »

Because it would ruin their research. Just like our biologists studying animals in the wild do their best not to interfere so they can record their behaviour without contaminating the habitat.

Why do you rule out that Alien life forms have their own way more advanced version of Vladimir Demikhov ?

Once your entering Alien territory discussion its a bit daft to rule out anything .. Right ?

weisses wrote: »

So we are as far as saying

1: Aliens visited us just out of curiosity

2: Planet x could actually be real

No that's not what I am saying. You are misrepresenting me.

What I am saying:

1. Aliens, if they visited us, would do so out of curiosity not because they needed resources as it would be inefficient. This is contrary to the claims of Sitichin and others who claim they needed resources for some reason.

2. Planet x as presented in conspiracy theories cannot exist.
There is no planet that has a 3600 year orbit that brings it in and out of the inner solar system.

weisses wrote: »

Why do you rule out that Alien life forms have their own way more advanced version of Vladimir Demikhov ?

I'm not really ruling it out, but this is another flight of fancy where you're just coming up with horror stories. It's likely an advanced interstellar species has gone beyond that level of experimentation. You'd have to assume they're at least at the same level of understanding that we are at. We're already creating artificial organs and in the future they'll completely remove the need for organ donation. There's also no reason to think there'd be any advantage to aliens implanting organs from foreign species into themselves or visa versa. They'll likely be so different at every level that the only thing transplanting organs would achieve is a painful death.

Once your entering Alien territory discussion its a bit daft to rule out anything .. Right ?

A bit, but we can make some basic assumptions based on what we know of life here, basic biology and evolution, chemical reactions and so on. There are some fundamental truths that are likely to be true for both life here and on other planets. We like to think aliens will have superhuman abilities like telekinesis but I think that's all very unlikely.

We have a few intelligent species on this planet for example. Dolphins are very intelligent but their body doesn't allow them to manipulate their environment like we do. They also can't create fire which puts them at a major disadvantage when it comes to making advanced tools. So they're a bit of a dead end for now and any aquarian species is going to be at the same disadvantage. Insects have other major disadvantages to their body type that would prevent them from becoming big enough to develop advanced mental abilities.

But we have a very small sample to work with on earth. We don't know how a different sized planet would affect things, how the lack of a moon would affect things, how the distance to the sun would affect things. We really don't know, but there's no reason to assume they'd want or need to have any contact with us. The very fact we haven't had any verifiable contact highlights they're either not there, or don't want to talk to us.

King Mob wrote: »

No that's not what I am saying. You are misrepresenting me.

What I am saying:

You said

I agree that they perhaps might visit us out of curiosity

So do you think they visited us in the past and/or visiting now ?

If not what do you agree with in Your quote above ?

ScumLord wrote: »

I'm not really ruling it out, but this is another flight of fancy where you're just coming up with horror stories. It's likely an advanced interstellar species has gone beyond that level of experimentation. You'd have to assume they're at least at the same level of understanding that we are at. We're already creating artificial organs and in the future they'll completely remove the need for organ donation. There's also no reason to think there'd be any advantage to aliens implanting organs from foreign species into themselves or visa versa. They'll likely be so different at every level that the only thing transplanting organs would achieve is a painful death.

A bit, but we can make some basic assumptions based on what we know of life here, basic biology and evolution, chemical reactions and so on. There are some fundamental truths that are likely to be true for both life here and on other planets. We like to think aliens will have superhuman abilities like telekinesis but I think that's all very unlikely.

We have a few intelligent species on this planet for example. Dolphins are very intelligent but their body doesn't allow them to manipulate their environment like we do. They also can't create fire which puts them at a major disadvantage when it comes to making advanced tools. So they're a bit of a dead end for now and any aquarian species is going to be at the same disadvantage. Insects have other major disadvantages to their body type that would prevent them from becoming big enough to develop advanced mental abilities.

But we have a very small sample to work with on earth. We don't know how a different sized planet would affect things, how the lack of a moon would affect things, how the distance to the sun would affect things. We really don't know, but there's no reason to assume they'd want or need to have any contact with us. The very fact we haven't had any verifiable contact highlights they're either not there, or don't want to talk to us.

Conclusion ... Both sides require bucket loads of assumptions

I don't think you can rule out anything with the little knowledge we have ..Specially if you believe in Aliens visiting earth.

I believe Mankind is a result of at least some Alien intervention...purely based on the fact that all we do is mess up the fine balance present for billions of years .... As far as I can tell we don't belong here

weisses wrote: »

You said

So do you think they visited us in the past and/or visiting now ?

If not what do you agree with in Your quote above ?

No I don't think they visited then. I don't think they are visiting now.

I will highlight the operative words:

I agree that they perhaps might visit us out of curiosity

If aliens do visit us curiosity is a more valid reason than gathering resources.

weisses wrote: »

Conclusion ... Both sides require bucket loads of assumptions

Correct. Sitchin has made assumptions and when we fact check them they don't pass the most basic questions that we can actually answer.

I believe Mankind is a result of at least some Alien intervention...purely based on the fact that all we do is mess up the fine balance present for billions of years .... As far as I can tell we don't belong here

I just can't see any credible evidence for that. Looking at the rest of life on this planet we fit in perfectly. Life on this planet is violent. We have a clear genetic link to the other species on this planet, we have a good historical record that gives us the reasons for violent actions taken by people (they often think they're doing the right thing). It's not even like we're the only species to overwhelm our environment. The first time bacteria started creating oxygen it caused a major extinction event because oxygen was toxic to most life around at the time.

Humans are a byproduct of their environment, always have been. There's a substantial body of evidence proving that theory.

ScumLord wrote: »

Correct. Sitchin has made assumptions and when we fact check them they don't pass the most basic questions that we can actually answer.

I just can't see any credible evidence for that. Looking at the rest of life on this planet we fit in perfectly. Life on this planet is violent. We have a clear genetic link to the other species on this planet, we have a good historical record that gives us the reasons for violent actions taken by people (they often think they're doing the right thing). It's not even like we're the only species to overwhelm our environment. The first time bacteria started creating oxygen it caused a major extinction event because oxygen was toxic to most life around at the time.

Humans are a byproduct of their environment, always have been. There's a substantial body of evidence proving that theory.

I am not saying we are genetically different

This is a fun read though

http://whatculture.com/science/10-reasons-why-humans-may-not-have-come-from-earth?page=12

weisses wrote: »

I am not saying we are genetically different

This is a fun read though

http://whatculture.com/science/10-reasons-why-humans-may-not-have-come-from-earth?page=12

Yeah, it's interesting. But most of it seems easy enough to debunk with what we know about biology and genetics now. There's a great BBC series on the evolution of human, they go into the benefits and limitations of the human body and what may have caused them. It's called "the incredible human journey". Things that Dr. Silver sees as problems are actually benefits. The human spine is a work of evolutionary art.

We are oddballs, but so is the platypus. There's no doubt we got extremely lucky and have evolved an incredible body that gives us many advantages. I think we're hands down the best creature life on this planet has come up with.

King Mob wrote: »

No I don't think they visited then. I don't think they are visiting now.

I will highlight the operative words:

If aliens do visit us curiosity is a more valid reason than gathering resources.

Ahhh silly me for thinking that when you say that you agree that they perhaps might visit us out of curiosity ... You actually mean they have not visited us at all

ScumLord wrote: »

We are oddballs, but so is the platypus. There's no doubt we got extremely lucky and have evolved an incredible body that gives us many advantages. I think we're hands down the best creature life on this planet has come up with.

And thats the reason I think we are not from here

weisses wrote: »

Ahhh silly me for thinking that when you say that you agree that they perhaps might visit us out of curiosity ... You actually mean they have not visited us at all

My meaning was clear from context and basic grammar.
I will attempt to be even clearer in future.

weisses wrote: »

And thats the reason I think we are not from here

So is the platypus not from earth either? There are plenty of creatures even odder than humans alive today, the archaeological record also show even more bizarre animals that lived on earth in the past. How different does an animal have to be before it becomes possible that they were planted here? How have we got genetic links to species that have been on earth for billions of years? Like how is it that we share around 50% of our DNA with a banana and the last common ancestor we had with a banana was millions if not billions of years ago.

ScumLord wrote: »

So is the platypus not from earth either? There are plenty of creatures even odder than humans alive today, the archaeological record also show even more bizarre animals that lived on earth in the past. How different does an animal have to be before it becomes possible that they were planted here? How have we got genetic links to species that have been on earth for billions of years? Like how is it that we share around 50% of our DNA with a banana and the last common ancestor we had with a banana was millions if not billions of years ago.

Sorry.. I quoted you incorrectly .. Disregard the platypus part

King Mob wrote: »

Well first off, water is not a element, it' a molecule.
Second water is abundant in comets. It takes far far less energy to get close to a comet, drill out some ice and melt it.
To extract water from Earth you need to dive deep into the Sun's gravity well. Then either land or send down landing ships, collect water, spend huge amounts of energy getting the water back up into orbit, then even more amounts of energy to get back out of the sun's gravity well.

If they are visiting here, it's not for resources.

How would a race capable of interstellar travel have issues collecting water from Earth and not from comets ?