Saying well done, useless backslapping or helpful encouragement??

tang1 · 17-07-2016 07:32PM #1

There seems to be a whole lot of no love lately here saying well done when it comes to a race or session. Personally I know myself if I've ran a **** race or done a crap session but a simple well done gives encouragement for the next race or session ahead.

Do you think it's pointless backslapping or helpful encouragement offering such a phrase? Do you welcome such words or hate it appearing on your log?

UM1 · 17-07-2016 07:37PM

tang1 wrote: »

There seems to be a whole lot of no love lately here saying well done when it comes to a race or session. Personally I know myself if I've ran a **** race or done a crap session but a simple well done gives encouragement for the next race or session ahead.

Do you think it's pointless backslapping or helpful encouragement offering such a phrase? Do you welcome such words or hate it appearing on your log?

I just wish anyone wud even look at my log

....a well done with a disclaimer on it does no harm

walshb · 17-07-2016 07:38PM

Wouldn't a well done for a ****ty run not come across as either stupid/awkward or insincere?

Ruu · 17-07-2016 07:43PM

I give ratings out of 10 to fellow runners and have been punched/pushed/chased nearly every time.

tang1 · 17-07-2016 07:45PM

walshb wrote: »

Wouldn't a well done for a ****ty run not come across as either stupid/awkward or insincere?

I think you can decipher weather its stupid/awkward or insincere yourself, would you rather that or nothing at all?

walshb · 17-07-2016 07:49PM

tang1 wrote: »

I think you can decipher weather its stupid/awkward or insincere yourself, would you rather that or nothing at all?

Me personally. Nothing. If I had a ****ty run then a 'well done' has about as much of a feel good factor as dose of the flu.

walshb · 17-07-2016 08:00PM

Might be worth pointing out getting well dones off random people online vs. people who know you and your history and your capabilities. Your friends, family/acquaintances vs. online nobodies. I think the former would, or should maybe focus more on what went wrong as opposed to 'well done.'

HelenAnne · 17-07-2016 09:02PM

It so depends - I did my first track session back after nearly two weeks off sick - I was a good few seconds slower than usual and had to sit out one rep, but a fellow runner said 'Well done' at the end and I presume she meant 'well done for getting back in to it and doing 9/10ths of the session', and I appreciated that even though i didn't, objectively speaking, run well.

If friends and family who don't run say 'well done' after a bad race, I presume they're just being nice and don't know what a good race / good time for me would be, so I just say 'thanks' (if I know them well, I say, 'Thanks, but ...' and then bore them with all the reasons why it was so awful

)

Club mates and running friends are unlikely to say 'well done' if it was obviously a bad performance. They might say something encouraging like 'it wasn't your day' or 'you dug in and finished it', which might make me feel better.

I don't know, it's nice of people to say anything or be interested in my hobbies so I wouldn't get too hung up on whether they meant it or not. (Well, I would actually get very hung up on a bad race, and would definitely bang on about it to my nearest and dearest, but a 'well done' from a colleague or an internet person wouldn't annoy me or anything, they are just being nice.)

tang1 · 17-07-2016 09:11PM

HelenAnne wrote: »

they are just being nice.)

The point I was hoping someone would make, they are just being nice. I can't see why people see this as a bad thing or useless lip service. There's enough badness in the world as it is without knocking a person for being nice or sincere to someone else.

Ed Mc Groarty · 17-07-2016 09:24PM

UM1 wrote:

I just wish anyone wud even look at my log ....a well done with a disclaimer on it does no harm

Nice run in lecheile the other night fair play. All the best in conn 100

johnruns · 17-07-2016 09:31PM

Ive run god knows how many races and finished every place from 1st to last but every time im at the finish bent over in bits:(and someone comes over and says well done mate good run I really do appreciate it and I hope when I do it ppl feel the same.

kit3 · 17-07-2016 09:50PM

UM1 wrote: »

I just wish anyone wud even look at my log ....a well done with a disclaimer on it does no harm

They don't know what they are missing - there is a special art to mastering the minimalist approach (in terms of writing/reports obviously, not running

)

Wild Garlic · 17-07-2016 09:52PM

kit3 wrote: »

They don't know what they are missing - there is a special art to mastering the minimalist approach (in terms of writing/reports obviously, not running )

Here here.:D

El Caballo · 17-07-2016 10:34PM

In real life, my mates will either have a laugh or won't mention a bad race I've had after it probably depending on my mood. The higher my expectations going into the race tends to lend itself towards the latter. I find it's hard to get that across on boards as you can't read someone's face in a second and know what's right to say. Here, while I'm not going to lie and say that encouragement isn't welcome, we are all influenced by those around us no matter how independent thinkers we think we are, the frustration from a bad race can be so big that I rather the brutal truth over a sugar-coated response, I'd like to know why and what others think rather than a well done I don't deserve in my mind when I know full well that it was just plain sh*te and nothing else which I hope I would get from a bunch of strangers on the Internet as a lot of my mates will play it by my mood rather than the real truth of the matter. So I guess it's complicated, sometimes I'm delusional, other times I'm disappointed, frustrated, happy when I shouldn't be and would prefer impartial judgement but others I do like a well done if anyone gets what I'm saying but most importantly, I want the truth as you won't meet many impartial people in real life who'll give it to you straight all the time which is why I started Internet service logs in the past, hoping distance would see through my stupidity and take the run for what it is.

Chartsengrafs · 17-07-2016 10:45PM

It costs nothing to be nice. I rarely go out of my way to praise performances that I don't feel deserve it, as I can't pull off insincerity. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest if others do.

nhunter100 · 18-07-2016 12:17AM

Can't offer a bull**** 'well done' to a bull**** effort. Simples, I'm not one of those empathy enthused individuals.

TFBubendorfer · 18-07-2016 09:25AM

Chartsengrafs wrote: »

It costs nothing to be nice. I rarely go out of my way to praise performances that I don't feel deserve it, as I can't pull off insincerity. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest if others do.

There are times when a "well done" is the best option but there are also times when a HTFU is badly needed to get the best out of me.

Chivito550 · 18-07-2016 09:26AM

Often it’s just a case of people trying to be nice. But I think when “well done” is used too much, it devalues it’s meaning. On some logs I’ve seen that some people only have to tie up their shoe laces and head out the door for a training run and there’s tons of kudos for that, which in my opinion is ridiculous. I’ve never understood why this goes on.

Runners aren’t stupid. We know when we have run brilliantly, decently, indifferently or badly. If you hear the same tone of congratulations after most kind of results, the value of such praise decreases.

I wouldn’t know exactly, as being a sprinter you aren’t inclined to drop out of races (I’ve dropped out of just two, both as a result of cramp), but I’d imagine the whole “well done for toughing it out” line must be the most annoying and useless form of encouragement one can receive. Imagine somebody saying to Ciaran O’Lionaird “well done for gutsing that out” after his disastrous heat in London 2012 where he trailed in second last, hampered by injury all year. That would mean precisely nothing to him. I’ve never understood why that phrase is so prevalent here. We don’t need to be brutally honest by telling somebody they had a disaster, when the person knows full well and has already eluded to it. But false praise for merely crossing a finish line is hardly warranted either.

The way I approach logs is if a poster has said they are delighted with their performance, then I’d offer my congratulations. If the poster says he/she is not happy with the result, and I genuinely believe it was a much better performance than that person thinks it is, then I will say that too.

Myles Splitz · 18-07-2016 09:43AM

I think immediately after any event the being nice and saying well done holds true. People are generally more highly emotional after a good/bad/indifferent performance so saying anything else other than well done/ hard luck, at best will be ignored or at worst gets peoples backs up and offends them.

Feedback both personal and from others is important though as every race is a learning experience as long as you are open to learning from it. There are some people who just won't listen and will seek out praise to re affirm what they are doing rather than wanting to learn from past mistakes etc. and kick on, that's fine best to leave these people to it as no amount of feedback, criticism, advice will do any good and all it will do will serve to cause bad blood.

Encouragement is great, we all need this at times when mentally are struggling, provided it is done in a manner which is not encouraging bad practice. Some times people know no better and by actually questioning things hopefully they will self evaluate the approach and learn or even just re affirm their initial believes.

If it bothers you don't waste your time with the people that there is no talking to their are many more elsewhere open to any help they can get.

HelenAnne · 18-07-2016 09:54AM

Chivito550 wrote: »

Runners aren’t stupid. We know when we have run brilliantly, decently, indifferently or badly. If you hear the same tone of congratulations after most kind of results, the value of such praise decreases.

... “well done for gutsing that out” after his disastrous heat in London 2012 where he trailed in second last, hampered by injury all year. That would mean precisely nothing to him. I’ve never understood why that phrase is so prevalent here. We don’t need to be brutally honest by telling somebody they had a disaster, when the person knows full well and has already eluded to it. But false praise for merely crossing a finish line is hardly warranted either.

See, I don't know if that's always true. Maybe it is for confident and logical people, or for people who are very good runners who are training for specific races and know what their peak should be etc, but for the rest of us, sometimes it can look / feel worse than it is, and some words of encouragement can make you feel better. I was devastated after the Road Relays this year - my leg put the team (which had won the title for the last 9 years) back from 3rd to 5th. I felt I had run so badly, and really let the team down and I never wanted to run on a club team again. Some feedback from clubmates made me see that while I hadn't had a spectacular, unprecedented run, taking into account the extra length of the 'mile' lap, it was an ok time for me (not my best, but among my best) and people reminded me that we hadn't had our full complement of strong runners available this year, so I was really in a position that was a bit beyond my abilities. If I'd been on the B team I would have ran as well as anyone else on the team and probably would have been happy. I think that's an example of a time that I really did think my run was even worse than it was, because I was running against tough opposition and in a stressful anchor-leg position. So people saying you did x or y well, did help me put it in perspective.

Also, re the 'toughing it out' thing - I agree, I wouldn't say it to someone who hobbled the last 50 metres of a 100 metres, but sometimes you see someone really suffering in a mucky cross country, but they keep trying and keep pushing until the finish. Even if they're off the pace, I think it's legitimate to praise that?

DubOnHoliday · 18-07-2016 10:01AM

sometimes the best words are the critical ones. Can I remember the 100s of times people said to me well done? Not so much. But can I remember the few times people I know well said to me, "well you really should be ahead of that guy..." ,or "it wasn't your day" etc.. yes I can because those comments stick in your head. As said earlier, during the emotion of finishing a race you might not want to hear that, but if it annoys you so much you'll do something about it at the next time of asking.

Chivito550 · 18-07-2016 10:02AM

HelenAnne wrote: »

Chivito550 wrote: »

Runners aren’t stupid. We know when we have run brilliantly, decently, indifferently or badly. If you hear the same tone of congratulations after most kind of results, the value of such praise decreases.

... “well done for gutsing that out” after his disastrous heat in London 2012 where he trailed in second last, hampered by injury all year. That would mean precisely nothing to him. I’ve never understood why that phrase is so prevalent here. We don’t need to be brutally honest by telling somebody they had a disaster, when the person knows full well and has already eluded to it. But false praise for merely crossing a finish line is hardly warranted either.

See, I don't know if that's always true. Maybe it is for confident and logical people, or for people who are very good runners who are training for specific races and know what their peak should be etc, but for the rest of us, sometimes it can look / feel worse than it is, and some words of encouragement can make you feel better. I was devastated after the Road Relays this year - my leg put the team (which had won the title for the last 9 years) back from 3rd to 5th. I felt I had run so badly, and really let the team down and I never wanted to run on a club team again. Some feedback from clubmates made me see that while I hadn't had a spectacular, unprecedented run, taking into account the extra length of the 'mile' lap, it was an ok time for me (not my best, but among my best) and people reminded me that we hadn't had our full complement of strong runners available this year, so I was really in a position that was a bit beyond my abilities. If I'd been on the B team I would have ran as well as anyone else on the team and probably would have been happy. I think that's an example of a time that I really did think my run was even worse than it was, because I was running against tough opposition and in a stressful anchor-leg position. So people saying you did x or y well, did help me put it in perspective.

Also, re the 'toughing it out' thing - I agree, I wouldn't say it to someone who hobbled the last 50 metres of a 100 metres, but sometimes you see someone really suffering in a mucky cross country, but they keep tying and keep pushing until the finish. Even if they're off the pace, I think it's legitimate to praise that?

The first part of your post is constructive though. It's valuable praise, and is legitimate. You were inexperienced in that environment and didn't know what a good run felt like. You allowed the performances of others around you determine in your head how well you ran, rather than the more logical things such as the clock, and how you felt during the race. As I said in my previous post, I'd do the exact same, if I believed somebody ran better than they thought they had. I raced a guy in the 100m last Wednesday. His PB is 12.20, and he ran 12.32. He was pissed off with himself. I said to him that he had no reason to be pissed off, as running that close to his best into a headwind, on a slow track in cool temperatures was an absolutely cracking run. And it was. He just couldn't see that until I said it to him.

However, regarding congratulations for finishing races, I can't agree with that. Fair enough if somebody is part of a team, where their performance matters to other people, then that kind of talk can be somewhat justified, but for somebody running individually, I don't see any merit in congratulating somebody for finishing a race.

tailgunner · 18-07-2016 10:14AM

Chivito550 wrote: »

I don't see any merit in congratulating somebody for finishing a race.

It's all about context though, isn't it? I wouldn't say "well done for toughing it out" to a professional athlete for finishing a race any more than I'd say it to the driver when my bus turns up late in rush-hour.

But crossing a finish line might genuinely be an achievement for someone here, and the phrase might be warranted.

Chivito550 · 18-07-2016 10:25AM

tailgunner wrote: »

It's all about context though, isn't it? I wouldn't say "well done for toughing it out" to a professional athlete for finishing a race any more than I'd say it to the driver when my bus turns up late in rush-hour.

But crossing a finish line might genuinely be an achievement for someone here, and the phrase might be warranted.

Well if finishing the race was the main goal, then you’d congratulate that person for achieving their goal. But most of the time on here when I see the whole “well done for toughing it out” it’s in relation to somebody who had an absolute horror show of a performance in a marathon or half marathon. The person knows they’ve had a disaster if they are 10-20 minutes off their goal time, so I can’t see how congratulating somebody for finishing is in any way helpful. If anything it’s a little disrespectful to that persons abilities and goals. Finishing a race would be the bare minimum expectation if somebody is entering a race looking to run x distance in x amount of time.

Firedance · 18-07-2016 11:02AM

Myles Splitz wrote: »

I think immediately after any event the being nice and saying well done holds true. People are generally more highly emotional after a good/bad/indifferent performance so saying anything else other than well done/ hard luck, at best will be ignored or at worst gets peoples backs up and offends them.

Feedback both personal and from others is important though as every race is a learning experience as long as you are open to learning from it. There are some people who just won't listen and will seek out praise to re affirm what they are doing rather than wanting to learn from past mistakes etc. and kick on, that's fine best to leave these people to it as no amount of feedback, criticism, advice will do any good and all it will do will serve to cause bad blood.

Encouragement is great, we all need this at times when mentally are struggling, provided it is done in a manner which is not encouraging bad practice. Some times people know no better and by actually questioning things hopefully they will self evaluate the approach and learn or even just re affirm their initial believes.

If it bothers you don't waste your time with the people that there is no talking to their are many more elsewhere open to any help they can get.

This is spot on, we know as runners when we've failed to reach our goals but we don't always know why (especially the more inexperienced among us) my two worst races by far DCM 14 and RNR 15 both saw support and 'well done' from clubmates when I myself thought my performance was reason enough to quit running. When the dust had settled afterwards a few folks from here helped me see where I had gone wrong in a constructive and educational way. At the time the support and positive comments were just what I needed (they weren't insincere and they included reasons why I'd had a bad race but all said in a positive way).

It really depends on a lot of things but I think Myles has hit the nail on the head with the timing of things. Constructive feedback is important, vital in fact if we are to learn how to improve, but it doesn't necessarily have to happen in the seconds or even hours after someone has crossed the finish line. If someone else has had a bad race I prefer the 'sorry to hear it didn't go well' and follow up with something positive.

HelenAnne · 18-07-2016 11:11AM

Chivito550 wrote: »

Well if finishing the race was the main goal, then you’d congratulate that person for achieving their goal. But most of the time on here when I see the whole “well done for toughing it out” it’s in relation to somebody who had an absolute horror show of a performance in a marathon or half marathon. The person knows they’ve had a disaster if they are 10-20 minutes off their goal time, so I can’t see how congratulating somebody for finishing is in any way helpful. If anything it’s a little disrespectful to that persons abilities and goals. Finishing a race would be the bare minimum expectation if somebody is entering a race looking to run x distance in x amount of time.

Have you done a marathon? (I don't mean that as a rhetorical question, I genuinely don't know if you have or not). Sometimes if things go very wrong for someone in a marathon, they may need to call on qualities like bravery or determination to actually make it to the finish. I know the Kenyan elites may decide to drop out and live to fight another day if the marathon isn't going well for them, but that's because for them there's no point flogging themselves to a slow finish if they can run a better race in a month and win some money, and that's very sensible - it's their job.
For a lot of average runners, they mightn't have another lined up, so the event they're running is important to them. Maybe their friends / clubmates are running it too and they don't want to be the only DNF at the after party that night. I think if someone collapses / suffers heat exhaustion / hits the wall, whatever and manages to put their pain and discomfort aside enough to make it to the finish, then even if their run doesn't deserve praise (because they were capable of running faster), the character traits that made them get up again and finish do! I know you say finishing should be the bare minimum, but sometimes people have had to get back out of an ambulance to finish!
(I don't think every marathon deserves praise, btw, I ran a stupidly slow time and deserved no praise whatsoever; it's just you mentioned people having 'shockers' and I feel that often those really bad runs, where things have gone wrong but some one has pressed on, do deserve praise.)

RayCun · 18-07-2016 11:11AM

One of the things frequently mentioned on coaching courses is that immediately after a race, you give positive feedback. Even when it is hard to find anything positive to say!

Then at the next training session you explain how they ****ed up

(because then, you can also say "and this is how we'll make sure that doesn't happen next time...")

Chivito550 · 18-07-2016 11:20AM

HelenAnne wrote: »

Have you done a marathon? (I don't mean that as a rhetorical question, I genuinely don't know if you have or not). Sometimes if things go very wrong for someone in a marathon, they may need to call on qualities like bravery or determination to actually make it to the finish. I know the Kenyan elites may decide to drop out and live to fight another day if the marathon isn't going well for them, but that's because for them there's no point flogging themselves to a slow finish if they can run a better race in a month and win some money, and that's very sensible - it's their job.
For a lot of average runners, they mightn't have another lined up, so the event they're running is important to them. Maybe their friends / clubmates are running it too and they don't want to be the only DNF at the after party that night. I think if someone collapses / suffers heat exhaustion / hits the wall, whatever and manages to put their pain and discomfort aside enough to make it to the finish, then even if their run doesn't deserve praise (because they were capable of running faster), the character traits that made them get up again and finish do! I know you say finishing should be the bare minimum, but sometimes people have had to get back out of an ambulance to finish!
(I don't think every marathon deserves praise, btw, I ran a stupidly slow time and deserved no praise whatsoever; it's just you mentioned people having 'shockers' and I feel that often those really bad runs, where things have gone wrong but some one has pressed on, do deserve praise.)

Yeh I ran Rotterdam 6 years ago before taking up sprinting. I understand how mentally tough it is. I did have fairly soft aspirations though, just wanting to finish in the 3:50 to 4:15 region which I managed comfortably. My training got absolutely slated on my old log here. But I was given all the usual congratulations afterwards, and I suppose I did achieve my goal so it was probably warranted. One of the posters here who was also competing that weekend said to me afterwards “congrats, that’s a fantastic time”. Then 2 years later over pints he tells me that my time was absolutely dreadful, and he was just doing the usual lieing and backslapping because he didn’t know me very well at the time.

It can be easy to justify saying “well done for gritting it out”, but I’d say if you asked any runner here with a little bit of experience (say they have 3-4 marathons under their belt) who had a dreadful run, does “well done for gritting it out” offer them any comfort, they’d probably say no.

As an aside, if somebody completes a marathon when doing so could harm their health, I don’t believe that deserves praise. People need to be sensible first and foremost.

Chivito550 · 18-07-2016 11:22AM

RayCun wrote: »

One of the things frequently mentioned on coaching courses is that immediately after a race, you give positive feedback. Even when it is hard to find anything positive to say!

Then at the next training session you explain how they ****ed up
(because then, you can also say "and this is how we'll make sure that doesn't happen next time...")

Yeh I'd agree there. Just make sure it is genuine positive feedback. If I found out a coach was lying to me just to make me feel better I'd find it hard to trust that coach. The brutal honest stuff can wait a few days, but if I am being given positive feedback, it needs to be genuine. Otherwise I'd rather nothing.

robinph · 18-07-2016 01:31PM

Getting a "well done" from some randomer on the side of the road in a race is great.
If during a training run then keep your wits about you as some good for nothing youth is probably about to mug you.

Getting Kudos on Strava from someone who knows you for a great run is great.
Getting Kudos on Strava from someone who knows you for a rubbish run and I'll think they are a bit odd to be wasting their time watching my every run in so much detail.
Getting Kudos on Strava from someone you don't know for any training run and you need to turn on your privacy settings.

Telling the world about your great race result on Facebook then everyone should be telling you how great you are.
Telling the world about your rubbish run on Facebook then it is you that is weird. If people who know you then tell you well done they are taking the piss, if people that don't know you tell you well done then they are wasting valuable internet.

Murph_D · 19-07-2016 11:54AM

So to sum up, getting a "well done" after a mediocre or poor race is sometimes useless backslapping, sometimes helpful encouragement, depending on:

(a) what you wanted from the race;
(b) what you actually got from the race;
(c) how realistic/stupid your race expectations were;
(d) who is saying "well done";
(e) when they say it;
(f) whether or not they know fock all about running; and
(g) the Internet.

Simples.

Saying well done, useless backslapping or helpful encouragement??

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