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Praying to Mary

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  • #62
    1123heavy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭1123heavy


    hinault wrote: »
    Which denomination of non-Catholic are you?

    Where do the gospels contradict each other? Gospel and verse.

    1. I am a non Catholic who believes in God.

    2. - The genealogies of Joseph.

    Matthew 1:2-17 and Luke 3:23-38. Glaring contradiction on who Joseph's father is.

    - Jesus' birth year

    Matthew 2:1 says he was born during the reign of Herod the great. Though Luke 2:2 states he was born during the first census and while Quirinius was governer of Syria. Quirinius wasn't Syria's governer until after Herod the Great died, they never ruled at the same time so how was Jesus born when they both reigned simultaneously according to the Gospels, as they never did !

    - The last supper day

    Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 all state the last supper was on the first day of the passover. However, in John 19:14 it states the last supper took place a day before the first day of passover. Unless there were two last suppers on different days, this is impossible.

    For the last one see back to what I said in my example of contradiction about today being Tuesday and tomorow being Friday. Same logic must be used to believe both.


    Now there are many, many more contradictions, though i have sore hands. I think I answered your question though. Please for the love of God do not just blindly follow what you brought up to follow, you have been blessed with your own brain, use it.


  • #63
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    1123heavy wrote: »
    1. I am a non Catholic

    You're Muslim.!


  • #64
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    1123heavy wrote: »
    1. I am a non Catholic

    I gathered that earlier,

    Which non-Catholic denomination do you belong to? A clear answer would greatly save my time.
    1123heavy wrote: »
    Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 all state the last supper was on the first day of the passover. However, in John 19:14 it states the last supper took place a day before the first day of passover.

    Chapter 13 of St.John's gospel describes very very briefly what we know as the Last Supper.

    John's gospel does not contain the same level of detail as the other gospels do concerning the Last Supper.
    Nor does it contradict the other gospels concerning the Last Supper. The account simply states that the (Last) Supper took place.
    13:1 Before the festival day of the pasch, Jesus knowing that his hour was come, that he should pass out of this world to the Father: having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

    13:2 And when supper was done, (the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray him,)

    13:3 Knowing that the Father had given him all things into his hands, and that he came from God, and goeth to God;

    13:4 He riseth from supper, and layeth aside his garments, and having taken a towel, girded himself


  • #65
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,086 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »
    You're Muslim.!

    Whatever he is, or isn't, doesn't deal with the question asked.

    Just because you're parents had some water poured on your head by a priest when you were a baby does not give you any better insight than anyone else. It is knowledge and questioning that leads you to answers.

    Reza Aslan is not a catholic but he, like many others whose profession it is to study all religious texts, I bet knows far more than you do about the bibles, Jesus, the middle east at the time.


  • #66
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,086 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    hinault wrote: »
    I gathered that earlier,

    Which non-Catholic denomination do you belong to? A clear answer would greatly save my time.

    What difference does it make. He is asking questions about your faith not his?


    hinault wrote: »
    Chapter 13 of St.John's gospel describes very very briefly what we know as the Last Supper.

    John's gospel does not contain the same level of detail as the other gospels do concerning the Last Supper.
    Nor does it contradict the other gospels concerning the Last Supper. The account simply states that the (Last) Supper took place.

    Right so does John and the other gospels disagree or not? It seems to me that Johns does state in John 19:14 that is was before the passover, which seems to be at odds to the others.

    Also, you completely failed to answer the contradiction about Joseph.

    The point, if I may be so bold, of the poster is not to argue about the minutia of the details but to simply raise the point that believing in something that in itself has clear contractions or has at best passages that are open to interpretation is somewhat problematic and they cannot understand how you can accept that it is all an inherent and one truth yet also be able to wiggle around the clear problems without a second thought.


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  • #67
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    What difference does it make.

    1.Potentially the confirmation as to what non-Catholic denomination he/she belongs to will save a lot of time
    2.If the poster is debating the content of topics in which he/she has no belief, then those who might consider replying need to know this.

    Leroy42 wrote: »
    The point, if I may be so bold, of the poster is not to argue about the minutia of the details but to simply raise the point that believing in something that in itself has clear contractions or has at best passages that are open to interpretation is somewhat problematic and they cannot understand how you can accept that it is all an inherent and one truth yet also be able to wiggle around the clear problems without a second thought.

    The poster went to the trouble of posting minutia - the least I can do is reply to that detail.


  • #68
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Whatever he is, or isn't, doesn't deal with the question asked.

    Just because you're parents had some water poured on your head by a priest when you were a baby does not give you any better insight than anyone else. It is knowledge and questioning that leads you to answers.

    Reza Aslan is not a catholic but he, like many others whose profession it is to study all religious texts, I bet knows far more than you do about the bibles, Jesus, the middle east at the time.

    Firstly, I'm not RC so pouring water on someones head has no relevance to me.
    Secondly, I've no idea who Reza Aslan is, so cant make a judgment on how much or how little he knows!

    As for our friend, he quoted a writing that is not accepted as par of the Biblical Canon, so he's not off to a very good start for anything that follows.


  • #69
    1123heavy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭1123heavy


    I appreciate this is a thread drift but I will reply and mods may remove as/if necessary. No one has referred to my first post about the topic of this thread though however so I will carry on with what they have replied about.


    Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »
    You're Muslim.!

    It was no secret, I consciously put in "pbuh", though I find my faith to be of little relevance here in all honesty.
    The account simply states that the (Last) Supper took place

    Incorrect in the context of the whole Gospel.

    John 19:14 "It was now about noon on the day of preparation for the Passover. ...”.
    This account contradicts all three other Gospels, for example Mark 14:12. "On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”


    If you want to lie to yourself go ahead, but the text says what it says. One says the day before and three others say on the day itself. There is no possible reconciliation and they cannot both be true ... this equals contradiction.
    2.If the poster is debating the content of topics in which he/she has no belief, then those who might consider replying need to know this.

    If something is the truth, it should be able to stand against any analysis, regardless of what faith the person analysing it is, therefore I feel my faith is irrelevant. When I get asked about Islam, the faith of the person asking me rarely actually comes up, they ask a question and I answer/ explain as necessary, the answer doesn't change depending on what the person believes in, if it's the logical truth the answer should be the same for everyone.

    As Leroy42 pointed out, you have conveniently ignored the other two blatant contradictions. And there are actually many more where they came from but I'll stop as you don't seem to have the answers or know (no one does actually, this is the issue when men write scripture). As I told you, please think with your own brain, this is very worrying and I am not being sarcastic.


  • #70
    solodeogloria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    Good morning!

    It's interesting that these are very similar points to what I've heard other Muslim friends argue with me on the basis of Zakir Naik or other apologists. The conversation usually gets better when we move away from the ping pong and actually want to learn something.

    I'm interested to discuss but not in a ping pong match where I go to Answering Islam (Christian apologetic site), and you go to Answering Christianity (Islamic apologetic site). Naturally people generally aren't interested in this type of discussion. Particularly when these "contradictions" all have answers online if you search for them.

    It would perhaps be more fruitful and more interesting to engage in good Islamic/ Christian dialogue rather than fill this thread with material from apologists online.

    If there's enough demand for it a new thread could be the right place for this dialogue. I've read a lot of the Qur'an so I'd be happy to have the right sort of conversation with you on a new thread.

    There is also no need to be rude by suggesting other posters use their brains. That doesn't help anyone. Let's build one another up rather than tearing them down.

    Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
    solodeogloria


  • #71
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,049 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    1123heavy wrote: »
    As I told you, please think with your own brain, this is very worrying and I am not being sarcastic.
    MOD NOTE

    Please avoid the personal commentary and keep to the topic.

    Thanks for your attention.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #72
    1123heavy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭1123heavy


    Delirium wrote: »
    MOD NOTE

    Please avoid the personal commentary and keep to the topic.

    Thanks for your attention.
    There is also no need to be rude by suggesting other posters use their brains.

    I certainly apologise for any offence caused, I think I may have come across in a different tone as intended. I didn't intend to be rude, I just like to remind people to think for themselves, because all to often people tell me things not based on what they themselves have thought about and concluded, but rather on what they have been brought up to believe and just repeat the stuff ad verbatim and somewhat blindly, even if all evidence suggests the truth is otherwise.
    Good morning!

    It's interesting that these are very similar points to what I've heard other Muslim friends argue with me on the basis of Zakir Naik or other apologists. The conversation usually gets better when we move away from the ping pong and actually want to learn something.

    I'm interested to discuss but not in a ping pong match where I go to Answering Islam (Christian apologetic site), and you go to Answering Christianity (Islamic apologetic site). Naturally people generally aren't interested in this type of discussion. Particularly when these "contradictions" all have answers online if you search for them.

    It would perhaps be more fruitful and more interesting to engage in good Islamic/ Christian dialogue rather than fill this thread with material from apologists online.

    If there's enough demand for it a new thread could be the right place for this dialogue. I've read a lot of the Qur'an so I'd be happy to have the right sort of conversation with you on a new thread.

    I would certainly be interested :) , though which forum to go to ?


  • #73
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    The Christianity forum is probably best as anything against Islam is closed down on the islam forum.


  • #74
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,049 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Just FYI, if people wish to discuss Islam there is the World Religions forum. The Islam forum is no longer active.

    You can tag the thread as related to Islam by selecting the appropriate tag when creating the thread.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #75
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    1123heavy wrote: »

    Incorrect in the context of the whole Gospel.

    John 19:14 "It was now about noon on the day of preparation for the Passover. ...”.
    This account contradicts all three other Gospels, for example Mark 14:12. "On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”


    If you want to lie to yourself go ahead, but the text says what it says. One says the day before and three others say on the day itself. There is no possible reconciliation and they cannot both be true ... this equals contradiction.

    You are incorrect when you say that there is no possible reconciliation. Galileans measured the Passover as running from sunrise to sunrise (in this case on the Friday) and celebrated the meal on the Thursday evening. Judeans measured the Passover from sunset to sunset, thereby celebrating the meal in this case on the Friday evening.

    This is no different from me saying that I once celebrated Easter in Drogheda and then flew two weeks later to Moscow where I celebrated Easter. No contradiction, just two different countries celebrating Easter on different dates.

    On another year I ate Christmas dinner with Polish friends in Dundalk, and also spent all of Christmas Day with family in Belfast where I ate Christmas Dinner with them. No contradiction, of course, since Poles traditionally eat their Christmas Dinner on the evening of December 24th whereas Irish people eat Christmas Dinner at lunchtime on the 25th.


  • #76
    branie2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,326 ✭✭✭✭branie2


    While we're on the subject, the visions at Lourdes, Knock and Fatima are regarded as demonic by Protestants


  • #77
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    branie2 wrote: »
    While we're on the subject, the visions at Lourdes, Knock and Fatima are regarded as demonic by some Protestants

    Fixed your post.


  • #78
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Nick Park wrote: »
    Fixed your post.

    You left out those of us who are neither RC or Protestant. ;)


  • #79
    Jellybaby1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    branie2 wrote: »
    While we're on the subject, the visions at Lourdes, Knock and Fatima are regarded as demonic by Protestants

    As a life long Prod, I have never heard that before. Where do people get their information from I wonder? I have never been taught anything at all by my religious teachers about Lourdes, Knock or Fatima. Never even been mentioned to me. Is it possible someone told you porkies? Or maybe I should ask what Protestants have you discussed this with?

    This thread has descended into the usual argy-bargy. I just spent the evening in a meeting with a group of RC's and CoI's. We all had a lovely time together and no-one mentioned religion because it was unnecessary and we all get along so well without it.


  • #80
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,086 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Jellybaby1 wrote: »
    I just spent the evening in a meeting with a group of RC's and CoI's. We all had a lovely time together and no-one mentioned religion because it was unnecessary and we all get along so well without it.

    There is probably a lesson in there for everyone.


  • #81
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,817 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Jellybaby1 wrote: »
    As a life long Prod, I have never heard that before. Where do people get their information from I wonder? I have never been taught anything at all by my religious teachers about Lourdes, Knock or Fatima. Never even been mentioned to me. Is it possible someone told you porkies? Or maybe I should ask what Protestants have you discussed this with?

    I thought that myself JB, it is not a subject that comes up generally, though if it did it would be considered more idolatrous (and possibly hysterical) than demonic.


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  • #82
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    looksee wrote: »
    I thought that myself JB, it is not a subject that comes up generally, though if it did it would be considered more idolatrous (and possibly hysterical) than demonic.

    I'd class it as demonic ..but then I'm not a prod ;)

    Where's Hinault when you need him :) .....I know he's on hols!


  • #83
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,817 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »
    I'd class it as demonic ..but then I'm not a prod ;)

    Where's Hinault when you need him :) .....I know he's on hols!

    Why would you class it as demonic? Either it is an apparition, or it is people having some sort of hallucination brought on by religious fervour, or they are lying. What is demonic about any of that?


  • #84
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    looksee wrote: »
    Why would you class it as demonic? Either it is an apparition, or it is people having some sort of hallucination brought on by religious fervour, or they are lying. What is demonic about any of that?

    From what I know of the apparitions, many of them were seen by a lot of people.

    If you can rule out mass hallucinations, they definitely saw something.
    They point people towards praying to "Mary" and as a result away from God.
    Anything seeking to usurp His place slis demonic in origin.


  • #85
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,817 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    There seems to be quite a few problems with that explanation. Why would it be assumed that people seeing and (possibly) venerating an apparition is more of a distraction from God than seeing and (possibly) venerating a statue of Mary in a grotto?


  • #86
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    looksee wrote: »
    There seems to be quite a few problems with that explanation. Why would it be assumed that people seeing and (possibly) venerating an apparition is more of a distraction from God than seeing and (possibly) venerating a statue of Mary in a grotto?


    There's not !!:rolleyes:


  • #87
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,086 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »
    They point people towards praying to "Mary" and as a result away from God.
    Anything seeking to usurp His place slis demonic in origin.

    So praying to the Saints is demonic? And by extension the church by making people saints are pointing people away from God?

    So Christianity is effectively operating in direct opposition to Gods teaching and thus no matter how hard we all pray by being involved in the church we must be sinners!

    Wow, that is a sobering thought.


  • #88
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So praying to the Saints is demonic? And by extension the church by making people saints are pointing people away from God?

    So Catholicism is effectively operating in direct opposition to Gods teaching and thus no matter how hard we all pray by being involved in the church we must be sinners!

    Wow, that is a sobering thought.


    I fixed your post :)


  • #89
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,817 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »
    There's not !!:rolleyes:

    There's not what?


  • #90
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    branie2 wrote: »
    While we're on the subject, the visions at Lourdes, Knock and Fatima are regarded as demonic by Protestants

    While I wouldn't use the word demonic, I would question the whole 'visions' experience that some in the RC Church hold dear to their hearts. I guess most Protestants would be a little confused & indifferent to the subject of visions/moving statues (praying to Saints & statues of Mary), but then again live & let live, and each to their own I say.

    We're all Christians.


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  • #91
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    looksee wrote: »
    There's not what?

    Statutes are not less of a distraction. It's idolatry which is forbidden by God.
    Pray to a "saint" who can be an intermediary with God, when Jesu said that we wouldn't even have to ask Him but could ask the Father directly.
    There is only One Mediator between God and men and that's Jesus. And his meditation is as advocate in the process of redemption.


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