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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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Comments

  • #5102
    robdonn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    hinault wrote: »
    I know that if I get in to my car and drive southwards for 2.5hrs I will arrive in Cork.
    If I get a puncture during that journey, I'd like to be able to change the tyre.
    OK that's a clumsy analogy.

    My point is that gaining an understanding of how matter operates radiates better the glory of God.

    Clumsy? That's incoherent!


  • #5103
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    That's a lie.

    how is that be a lie? It's a statement of religious faith by hinault. I'd be surprised if he didn't believe that to be true.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #5104
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    hinault wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    What laws has God changed? When were these laws changed?

    That is preceisly my point. He hasn't. We have no evidence that he ever has yet you believe that God plays an active role in the everyday lives of people. He listens to their prayers, he even answers them on occasion. He grants miracles, he has chosen humans as is chosen species and chosen Israelites as his chosen people within that.


    hinault wrote: »
    I know that if I get in to my car and drive southwards for 2.5hrs I will arrive in Cork.
    If I get a puncture during that journey, I'd like to be able to change the tyre.
    OK that's a clumsy analogy.

    Again, exactly my point. God has nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter is you believe in him or not. It doesn't matter if you are a mass murdering, infratricile maniac with Satanic leanings, you still get there in 2.5 hours. The puncture is due to known laws of science, not some higher power picking you out for special treatment.
    hinault wrote: »
    My point is that gaining an understanding of how matter operates radiates better the glory of God.

    Don't argue there. Not sure about the glory bit but understanding the universe and everything in it sure gives us an appreciation (however limited) to the universe. But again, it goes back to exactly what God is. No point given glory to a God that for all intents and purposes does not exist in relation to us.

    hinault wrote: »
    Each one of us are called to believe in God with all our body, soul and mind.
    Our mind is supposed to be the seat of reason.

    That is your opinion. But called by whom/what? What would an non interactive God care whether we give ourselves to him or not. The laws of the universe already decree what our lives will be like.
    hinault wrote: »
    Genesis conveys the story of creation not as a scientific synopsis. Therefore to read Genesis as a scientific treatise is pointless.

    I fully agree, the point I am making is that once you accept that parts of the bible are not the full truth then where do you stop? So Genesis is not accurate, what about Noah and the flood? What about Moses? The Ten commandments? There is no evidence for any of this.
    hinault wrote: »
    God didn't make up Genesis. What Genesis conveys is the truth. God created the Universe and everything that is in the Universe.

    Sorry, I'm confused here. Either it is accurate or it isn't. Is it the truth or not? You seem to be saying that it isn't the truth but conveys the truth? Is that right? So the details are not right but the overall message is? Right, I get that, and can get on board with it as it makes sense, but once again, it calls into question everything else that is in the bible. Was Mary really a virgin? Sinless? Was Jesus really born in Bethlehem? What about the ten commandments? What about the promised land? Sodam & Gomorrah?


  • #5105
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    hinault wrote: »
    :rolleyes:
    Genesis conveys the story of creation not as a scientific synopsis. Therefore to read Genesis as a scientific treatise is pointless.
    God didn't make up Genesis. What Genesis conveys is the truth. God created the Universe and everything that is in the Universe.

    If God, a Deity, conveyed the story of creation, I fully expect it to be how things happened, not just on Earth but in the whole Universe. Clearly it is not. The Earth is a miniscule, atom sized dot in our solar system, let alone in the universe. Genesis conveys a message that basically makes the Earth the centre of the universe. It is pure fiction.

    Look, the universe is so large, so complex, it is ridiculous to suggest that we know about how it all happened.
    Genesis does not convey the truth, obviously. But if you choose to believe it then that is your entitlement


  • #5106
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    That is your opinion. But called by whom/what?

    It's not my opinion, it is stated fact.

    St.Matthew 22-37
    Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    I fully agree, the point I am making is that once you accept that parts of the bible are not the full truth

    No, you don't agree because you refuse to accept the truth.

    It is of course your prerogative to refuse to accept the truth.
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Sorry, I'm confused here.

    No, you're not confused. And you're not sorry either.

    You have decided that you do not accept what the Bible teaches.
    You refuse to accept the truth. That is your prerogative.

    What denomination of non-Catholic are you, anyhow?


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  • #5107
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Safehands wrote: »
    If God, a Deity, conveyed the story of creation, I fully expect it to be how things happened, not just on Earth but in the whole Universe. Clearly it is not. The Earth is a miniscule, atom sized dot in our solar system, let alone in the universe. Genesis conveys a message that basically makes the Earth the centre of the universe. It is pure fiction.

    Look, the universe is so large, so complex, it is ridiculous to suggest that we know about how it all happened.
    Genesis does not convey the truth, obviously. But if you choose to believe it then that is your entitlement

    So it's what you expect which needs to be satisfied.:rolleyes:

    Genesis doesn't purport to be a "scientific" treatise describing the creation of the Universe. Nowhere in the document does it make this claim.

    I do disagree that the Universe is infinite and that to understand the Universe and everything in it is more demanding than we can ever hope to master.

    Genesis does convey the singular truth, that God created the Universe.
    You are entirely free to accept or to reject that truth. God gives you that freedom too;)


  • #5108
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    hinault wrote: »
    So it's what you expect which needs to be satisfied.:rolleyes:

    Genesis doesn't purport to be a "scientific" treatise describing the creation of the Universe. Nowhere in the document does it make this claim.

    I do disagree that the Universe is infinite and that to understand the Universe and everything in it is more demanding than we can ever hope to master.

    Genesis does convey the singular truth, that God created the Universe.
    You are entirely free to accept or to reject that truth. God gives you that freedom too;)

    so we have an entity of some sort flicked a switch 14 odd billion years ago and kind of let things pan out as they will. any reason for not getting a move on and speeding things up a bit? the entity comes across as not having any powers to actually affect its creation?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #5109
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    silverharp wrote: »
    so we have an entity of some sort flicked a switch 14 odd billion years ago and kind of let things pan out as they will. any reason for not getting a move on and speeding things up a bit? the entity comes across as not having any powers to actually affect its creation?

    You'd be on here complaining about too much interference in that instance.


  • #5110
    robdonn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    hinault wrote: »
    You'd be on here complaining about too much interference in that instance.

    Interference would be great, it'd actually be something to test and try to assess it's origin.


  • #5111
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    hinault wrote: »
    You'd be on here complaining about too much interference in that instance.

    ermm... Im just looking for something resembling an intervention since the "switch was flicked", the entity doesn't appear to have taken any interest in even nudging the occasional asteroid from hitting the earth which must have put back the grand plan by hundreds of millions of years at this stage. or is it worth even mentioning that the earth isn't even in anything resembling the older parts of the Universe.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • #5112
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    silverharp wrote: »
    so we have an entity of some sort flicked a switch 14 odd billion years ago and kind of let things pan out as they will. any reason for not getting a move on and speeding things up a bit? the entity comes across as not having any powers to actually affect its creation?

    Well, at least it's a step up from it all coming from nothing and evolving in a random manner without any intelligent design - or do you have a better explanation than that the universe was created by an intelligent designer/God ?


  • #5113
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    hinault wrote: »
    It's not my opinion, it is stated fact.

    St.Matthew 22-37

    It is not a fact. It is your belief, and that is fine, but it is far from a fact. you then go on to 'prove' this fact by quoting from the book you used to learn the 'fact' in the first place, without any evidence to back it up. You can say it is fact until you are blue in the face but just because you believe it be true doesn't make it so.



    hinault wrote: »
    No, you don't agree because you refuse to accept the truth.

    It is of course your prerogative to refuse to accept the truth.

    You haven't provided the evidence that your truth is right. it may well be, but it is more likely that it is not.


    hinault wrote: »
    No, you're not confused. And you're not sorry either.

    It was a sorry in terms of I don't agree, not that I am deeply apologetic. I am confused by your logic. you are clearly of the belief that the bible is a direct book from god, passed through the prophets etc. It is the truth, the very basis for your facts. But then you are quite happy to admit that many parts of it are not actually the truth but a stripped down version of it, somewhat story type in order to get across the message. I am asking, for which you still haven't answered, why you can so firmly believe that this book is the truth, the only truth? So the overall is true, but the details are somewhat made up? Which parts. Clearly you don't believe in the details of Genesis, so I can take from that you don't believe in Adam & Eve, the snake, original sin, the garden of Eden. Or maybe you believe in some of them.

    Do you also then believe that Moses walked in the desert for 40 years! That he was given the 10 commandments, and that after he was given these by god he then broke them and God had to redo them!
    hinault wrote: »
    You have decided that you do not accept what the Bible teaches.
    You refuse to accept the truth. That is your prerogative.

    I don't refuse anything, expect to unquestionably accept the writings of an ancient book on the basis that some other people have done it before. Show me evidence of this truth?
    hinault wrote: »
    What denomination of non-Catholic are you, anyhow?

    I am a catholic.
    hinault wrote: »
    You'd be on here complaining about too much interference in that instance.

    So you accept that God has had no interference. What about the floods, the plagues, the wiping out of the Egyptian soldiers in the Dead Sea? What about all the miracles? What about the moving statues? What about Jesus curing the sick, the blind. Coming back from the dead. Ascending into heaven. You must believe that God is constantly interferring yet you have no evidence of any of it.

    My daughter thinks Santa is real. She thinks she heard his sleigh on the roof. And it was given more credence when she told her classmate and she said she heard the same. Suddenly half the class had heard it, individually in their own houses. I have even read about in a book. Does that make it true?


  • #5114
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    steamengine wrote: »
    Well, at least it's a step up from it all coming from nothing and evolving in a random manner without any intelligent design - or do you have a better explanation than that the universe was created by an intelligent designer/God ?

    it isn't really a step up though is it? We know as much about the 'nothing' as we do about God. Why can't it just have come from nothing? Well, because that doesn't doesn't make sense. If it makes you feel better to fill in the blanks with a name, God, JuJu, whatever, great, whatever helps you get peace, but don't for a second think that it is a step up.

    Why then do you accept that God created it from nothing? Because he is all powerful? Based on what? Based on the need for him to be otherwise he wouldn't be able to create the universe! But it doesn't really move anything on as your are simply kicking the problem further back. Instead of nothing we now have God, but where did he come from. Nothing, but thats ok cause he's god and he can do that.


  • #5115
    robdonn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    steamengine wrote: »
    Well, at least it's a step up from it all coming from nothing and evolving in a random manner without any intelligent design - or do you have a better explanation than that the universe was created by an intelligent designer/God ?

    No answer is better than a made up answer.


  • #5116
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    it isn't really a step up though is it? We know as much about the 'nothing' as we do about God. Why can't it just have come from nothing? Well, because that doesn't doesn't make sense. If it makes you feel better to fill in the blanks with a name, God, JuJu, whatever, great, whatever helps you get peace, but don't for a second think that it is a step up.

    Why then do you accept that God created it from nothing? Because he is all powerful? Based on what? Based on the need for him to be otherwise he wouldn't be able to create the universe! But it doesn't really move anything on as your are simply kicking the problem further back. Instead of nothing we now have God, but where did he come from. Nothing, but thats ok cause he's god and he can do that.


    Inherent in Christian belief is that God created the universe. It is interesting but not surprising that scientists such as Kaku also arrive at a similar conclusion, even if it's referred to as the 'Spinosa' God.

    If you disagree with the necessity of a god or an intelligent designer, then what is your alternative ? The nothing I'm referring to is the absence of an alternative belief to the Christian belief.


  • #5117
    robdonn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    steamengine wrote: »
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    it isn't really a step up though is it? We know as much about the 'nothing' as we do about God. Why can't it just have come from nothing? Well, because that doesn't doesn't make sense. If it makes you feel better to fill in the blanks with a name, God, JuJu, whatever, great, whatever helps you get peace, but don't for a second think that it is a step up.

    Why then do you accept that God created it from nothing? Because he is all powerful? Based on what? Based on the need for him to be otherwise he wouldn't be able to create the universe! But it doesn't really move anything on as your are simply kicking the problem further back. Instead of nothing we now have God, but where did he come from. Nothing, but thats ok cause he's god and he can do that.


    Inherent in Christian belief is that God created the universe. It is interesting but not surprising that scientists such as Kaku also arrive at a similar conclusion, even if it's referred to as the 'Spinosa' God.

    If you disagree with the necessity of a god or an intelligent designer, then what is your alternative ? The nothing I'm referring to is the absence of an alternative belief to the Christian belief.

    There doesn't need to be an alternative explanation to dismiss a bad explanation.


  • #5118
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    robdonn wrote: »
    There doesn't need to be an alternative explanation to dismiss a bad explanation.

    An answer would be helpful though. How or why did a universe come about without a god or an intelligent designer ?


  • #5119
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    silverharp wrote: »
    ermm... Im just looking for something resembling an intervention since the "switch was flicked", the entity doesn't appear to have taken any interest in even nudging the occasional asteroid from hitting the earth which must have put back the grand plan by hundreds of millions of years at this stage. or is it worth even mentioning that the earth isn't even in anything resembling the older parts of the Universe.

    It's lucky that the Creators work allowed for the creation of Jupiter.
    That planet has shielded our planet from literally 4.5 billion years of celestial debris.


  • #5120
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    hinault wrote: »
    It's lucky that the Creators work allowed for the creation of Jupiter.
    That planet has shielded our planet from literally 4.5 billion years of celestial debris.

    debris which also be the work of the Creator also.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #5121
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    it isn't really a step up though is it? We know as much about the 'nothing' as we do about God. Why can't it just have come from nothing? Well, because that doesn't doesn't make sense. If it makes you feel better to fill in the blanks with a name, God, JuJu, whatever, great, whatever helps you get peace, but don't for a second think that it is a step up.

    Why then do you accept that God created it from nothing? Because he is all powerful? Based on what? Based on the need for him to be otherwise he wouldn't be able to create the universe! But it doesn't really move anything on as your are simply kicking the problem further back. Instead of nothing we now have God, but where did he come from. Nothing, but thats ok cause he's god and he can do that.

    You're Catholic, remember:rolleyes:


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  • #5122
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Delirium wrote: »
    debris which also be the work of the Creator also.

    That's true, ultimately too.


  • #5123
    beach_walker
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 976 ✭✭✭beach_walker


    silverharp wrote: »
    so we have an entity of some sort flicked a switch 14 odd billion years ago and kind of let things pan out as they will. any reason for not getting a move on and speeding things up a bit?

    So it was too slow for you...? How short a time would suffice?


  • #5124
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    steamengine wrote: »
    An answer would be helpful though. How or why did a universe come about without a god or an intelligent designer ?

    But a made up answer? For that is what God is without any evidence. So what you seem to be claiming is that God is a good answer as it fills the need to have an answer.

    We have no idea how the universe was created but that leaves infinite possibilities, which whilst not discounting a God or intelligent designer, is certainly not limited to such


  • #5125
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    hinault wrote: »
    You're Catholic, remember:rolleyes:

    Yes, thank you for such a wonderful response. I am well aware of what I am am very grateful that, in deference to many other religions, Catholicism allows itself to change over time given new insights an understanding. We do not rigidly stick to centuries old stories whilst the overwhelming evidence points to something else.

    You, for example, don't believe in every word of Genesis. Catholics seem happy enough to work on the Sabbath, most don't actually believe that the eucharist is actually the body of christ but is a symbol.

    We no longer believe in the existence of hell. The entire OT is now seen as more of a parable than actually detailed accounts of real events.

    So you are willing to openly ignore some aspects of the book but stop short of actually questioning the basis for an all powerful God? And you think you can sneer at me!


  • #5126
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭indioblack


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Yes, thank you for such a wonderful response. I am well aware of what I am am very grateful that, in deference to many other religions, Catholicism allows itself to change over time given new insights an understanding. We do not rigidly stick to centuries old stories whilst the overwhelming evidence points to something else.

    You, for example, don't believe in every word of Genesis. Catholics seem happy enough to work on the Sabbath, most don't actually believe that the eucharist is actually the body of christ but is a symbol.

    We no longer believe in the existence of hell. The entire OT is now seen as more of a parable than actually detailed accounts of real events.

    So you are willing to openly ignore some aspects of the book but stop short of actually questioning the basis for an all powerful God? And you think you can sneer at me!
    But who decides all this - and on what basis?
    When I was a lad the OT was true - actual events.
    Hell was real - you went there if you died with a mortal sin on your soul.
    The eucharist WAS the body of Christ - the priest intoned it at Mass, "The Body of Christ".
    Dawkins called it "making it up as you go along".


  • #5127
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    hinault wrote: »
    It's lucky that the Creators work allowed for the creation of Jupiter.
    That planet has shielded our planet from literally 4.5 billion years of celestial debris.

    Are you suggesting that the purpose of Jupiter's existence is to somehow protect the Earth?


  • #5128
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    steamengine wrote: »
    Well, at least it's a step up from it all coming from nothing and evolving in a random manner without any intelligent design - or do you have a better explanation than that the universe was created by an intelligent designer/God ?

    What a question. Try the big bang as one of a series of big bangs. The Hindu's believe in that kind of thing. Truth is, we don't really know.

    But if "God" created the universe 10,000 or 14 billion years ago, what was God doing for the eternity before that? Because 14 billion years is nothing compared to eternity. Are we to believe that an all powerful God, who always existed, was doing nothing for eternity and then he or she suddenly decided that they would create a new universe?


  • #5129
    beach_walker
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 976 ✭✭✭beach_walker


    Safehands wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that the purpose of Jupiter's existence is to somehow protect the Earth?

    Whether you believe in God or not, there's absolutely no doubting that Jupiter has (and continues) to protect Earth. It's like a giant vacuum cleaner. Life on Earth wouldn't have stood a chance without its presence.


  • #5130
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    beach_walker wrote: »
    Whether you believe in God or not, there's absolutely no doubting that Jupiter has (and continues) to protect Earth. It's like a giant vacuum cleaner. Life on Earth wouldn't have stood a chance without its presence.

    Life on Earth wouldn't stand a chance without the sun either. But are we saying that God put Jupiter there for that reason?


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  • #5131
    beach_walker
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 976 ✭✭✭beach_walker


    Safehands wrote: »
    Life on Earth wouldn't stand a chance without the sun either. But are we saying that God put Jupiter there for that reason?

    I don't know what we are saying. You seemed to be implying that Jupiter doesn't fulfill such a role, I was correcting that.


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