Euronly official After Hours soccerball thread

LorMal · 30-06-2016 09:36AM

andekwarhola wrote: »

To be fair, the problem with England in this tournament, and indeed in most tournaments, was about mental/tactical nous and spirit, and the historical momentum that comes with that. The England team this time was relatively decent technically. As anybody could actually clearly see if they watched the games before running to the laptop to laugh about them.

In fact, it's ironic that when you now see the English academy system playing catch up with mainland Europe to produce mostly ball-playing footballers, what England actually lacked against Iceland was old fashioned spirit, organisation and one or two of the more doughty players that they used to produce in droves (Bryan Robson, Stuart Pearce, Paul Ince and so on).

I don't agree. Its very clear they lack intelligent, technically strong footballers playing in a calm and supportive environment. Their biggest issue is the virulent way they are treated by their press - it stops them playing to their potential. As I posted earlier - the level of expectation, coupled with the vitriol and hatred that is spewed on them if they lose, stops them from expressing themselves on the pitch.

From the Guardian this morning:

The Football Association chairman, Greg Dyke, has accused England’s players of being “scared” during their 2-1 Euro 2016 defeat against Iceland and questioned whether any manager would now want the job in the wake of Roy Hodgson’s resignation.

Dyke, who will step down from his FA role in three weeks’ time, said England team froze during their last-16 game on Monday, the national side’s most calamitous result since they were beaten 1-0 by the United States in the 1950 World Cup.

Having overseen early England exits at the 2014 World Cup and now Euro 2016, Dyke said Roy Hodgson’s successor as England manager could be a foreign coach but said he had to be steeped in English football. He also questioned why anyone would want the role, saying the media pressure was more intense than any other position in the game.

“I met Glenn Hoddle on the plane on the way back, and he said [they were] scared to death,” Dyke said on Wednesday.

“Once you go 2-1 down, the longer it went on, the more scared they were. They brought on [Marcus] Rashford, who’s 19, he’s got nothing to lose, he wasn’t scared at all. He was on for five minutes, he went past him three times. Once he lost the ball but twice he went through.

“They were just scared. It’s the same in all sport. Really talented sportsmen can just freeze. That’s what happens.”

andekwarhola · 30-06-2016 09:45AM

gramar wrote: »

England had no confidence against Iceland. A few small things go wrong and players have no faith in themselves or their teammates to get them out of trouble. The doubts set in and I've no doubt that they're thinking 'here we go again...'. Some of the basic control and passing was awful, Ronney crossed from 5 yards outside the box and couldn't even get it in the box. Kane did the same hitting a deadball out of play and a freekick embarrassingly wide. That's the accumulated pressure of decades of failure that they've all grown up with and some have been involved in.

I think we're mostly on the same page.

I just find it interesting that how much they seem mentally programmed to failure in tournaments, Whether by historical pressure, tactics, pressure at home; hatred from the wider world - maybe a combination of all.

I'm not sure it's down to the quality of the players, which by any yardstick, is generally decent enough to my eyes.

If it was purely down to the league, any team like Wales, Northern Ireland or us would dramatically under perform as those players are drawn from the same leagues. If it was purely down to basic technique, only skillful teams would get out of the groups. If it was down to having overpaid players, Iceland, Albania or Ireland would win the competition.

Ironically, Spain was a similar basket case at tournaments (until that Barca generation) and they have won the most champions leagues /European cups at club level and England have won the 3rd most (4 less than Spain but across far more clubs).

The reason people don't really analyze this more is because it's England so because we hate them, we just want to dabble in easy, cavillous cliches about the Premier League and technique.

andekwarhola · 30-06-2016 09:51AM

LorMal wrote: »

I don't agree. Its very clear they lack intelligent, technically strong footballers playing in a calm and supportive environment. Their biggest issue is the virulent way they are treated by their press - it stops them playing to their potential. As I posted earlier - the level of expectation, coupled with the vitriol and hatred that is spewed on them if they lose, stops them from expressing themselves on the pitch.

From the Guardian this morning:

The Football Association chairman, Greg Dyke, has accused England’s players of being “scared” during their 2-1 Euro 2016 defeat against Iceland and questioned whether any manager would now want the job in the wake of Roy Hodgson’s resignation.

Dyke, who will step down from his FA role in three weeks’ time, said England team froze during their last-16 game on Monday, the national side’s most calamitous result since they were beaten 1-0 by the United States in the 1950 World Cup.

Having overseen early England exits at the 2014 World Cup and now Euro 2016, Dyke said Roy Hodgson’s successor as England manager could be a foreign coach but said he had to be steeped in English football. He also questioned why anyone would want the role, saying the media pressure was more intense than any other position in the game.

“I met Glenn Hoddle on the plane on the way back, and he said [they were] scared to death,” Dyke said on Wednesday.

“Once you go 2-1 down, the longer it went on, the more scared they were. They brought on [Marcus] Rashford, who’s 19, he’s got nothing to lose, he wasn’t scared at all. He was on for five minutes, he went past him three times. Once he lost the ball but twice he went through.

“They were just scared. It’s the same in all sport. Really talented sportsmen can just freeze. That’s what happens.”

Again, I think there's a lot of truth in this and it's the general gist of what I'm saying. I feel its down down to a host of mental and historical factors stymieing them. Not pointless blowharding about the fact that they're all Sunday league level players and the PL is X and Y.

LorMal · 30-06-2016 09:52AM

There needs to be a shift in the culture of English football. It is far too aggressive and hostile. I am an Anglophile but I hate this aspect of English culture. The behavior of their supporters is vile - even on a standard Premier League Saturday afternoon. Its all hatred of the opposition and roaring abuse at players if they don't play well, getting pissed on the way to the game and singing horrible chants (about Hillsborough and Munich for example).
The game has no soul in England anymore - no joie de vivre, no joy in playing the game, no celebration of sportsmanship, no comradeship.
They need a very strong manager that will tell the media to **** off and leave his players alone. They need to be allowed to enjoy playing football for their country, to take a few risks, to play expansive skillful football and to be respectful of opponents and to be humble in victory or defeat.
I don't see it happening but if anyone can do it, I think Venger might.

andekwarhola · 30-06-2016 10:02AM

LorMal wrote: »

There needs to be a shift in the culture of English football. It is far too aggressive and hostile. I am an Anglophile but I hate this aspect of English culture. The behavior of their supporters is vile - even on a standard Premier League Saturday afternoon. Its all hatred of the opposition and roaring abuse at players if they don't play well, getting pissed on the way to the game and singing horrible chants (about Hillsborough and Munich for example).
The game has no soul in England anymore - no joie de vivre, no joy in playing the game, no celebration of sportsmanship, no comradeship.
They need a very strong manager that will tell the media to **** off and leave his players alone. They need to be allowed to enjoy playing football for their country, to take a few risks, to play expansive skillful football and to be respectful of opponents and to be humble in victory or defeat.
I don't see it happening but if anyone can do it, I think Venger might.

To be fair, the fan culture in the premier league is pretty curtailed nowadays with the cost of tickets and stewarding. Outside of England, it can be anything from boisterous (Spain, Germany) to crazy (Italy, Eastern Europe).

Look at social media when England fail. It's close to unbridled joy and piss taking, even from their own media. It must be surely a factor in stockpiling a historical mentality of fear in tournaments.

Like I said as well, it's instructive that Spain and England (1st and 3rd most successful club nations in Europe and the two richest leagues) have had a similar record down the years of choking in tournaments.

I also don't really see any more radical sense of disrespect towards opponents from England than other big countries like Germany or Portugal, for example. I think again this is a perception borne of dislike for the country which again feeds in to the mental shackles we discussed.

LorMal · 30-06-2016 10:10AM

andekwarhola wrote: »

To be fair, the fan culture in the premier league is pretty curtailed nowadays with the cost of tickets and stewarding. Outside of England, it can be anything from boisterous (Spain, Germany) to crazy (Italy, Eastern Europe).

Look at social media when England fail. It's close to unbridled joy and piss taking, even from their own media. It must be surely a factor in stockpiling a historical mentality of fear in tournaments.

Like I said as well, it's instructive that Spain and England (1st and 3rd most successful club nations in Europe and the two richest leagues) have had a similar record down the years of choking in tournaments.

I also don't really see any more radical sense of disrespect towards opponents from England than other big countries like Germany or Portugal, for example. I think again this is a perception borne of dislike for the country which again feeds in to the mental shackles we discussed.

I like England. Irish people think that England is hated elsewhere. Not true (other than some french and obviously the Scots).
Having lived in Mainland Europe for many years, I can assure you that England is loved and admired by the Dutch, Germans, Nordics and may more.

PARlance · 30-06-2016 10:11AM

LorMal wrote: »

For those who are professional players, it's a job. For the rest of us, its just a game.
The anger and vitriol is for simpletons.

Would you include never-ending conversations / debate about it as being for simpletons too?

osarusan · 30-06-2016 10:16AM

I don't think it's an issue of technical ability as much as it is an issue of tactical ability/awareness.

EPL players are quite good technically, but I'm not so sure about tactically. It's a league that's always played at a fast pace, and they're willing to give the ball away easily enough as they know the opposition will give it back to them easily too.

This high-paced play, combined with their technical ability means that they can beat decent teams (club and country), but they tend to lose to teams who are good at keeping the ball. The attitude of 'impose our play on the opposition and make them play our game' goes so far but only goes so far, and when the opposition is good enough to deal with it, there often isn't any effective plan B.

Tactically also, there is less guile about them than other countries. I don't know if it's a coaching issue or goes deeper into footballing culture, but it's there. England were posed a defensive puzzle by Iceland the other night for at least an hour, and they never even came close to unlocking it - I think it is much less likely that a German, Italian, or Spanish team would fail in the same way.

gramar · 30-06-2016 10:16AM

andekwarhola wrote: »

To be fair, the fan culture in the premier league is pretty curtailed nowadays with the cost of tickets and stewarding. Outside of England, it can be anything from boisterous (Spain, Germany) to crazy (Italy, Eastern Europe).

Look at social media when England fail. It's close to unbridled joy and piss taking, even from their own media. It must be surely a factor in stockpiling a historical mentality of fear in tournaments.

Like I said as well, it's instructive that Spain and England (1st and 3rd most successful club nations in Europe and the two richest leagues) have had a similar record down the years of choking in tournaments.

I also don't really see any more radical sense of disrespect towards opponents from England than other big countries like Germany or Portugal, for example. I think again this is a perception borne of dislike for the country which again feeds in to the mental shackles we discussed.

The lack of camaraderie in English teams I think has a big impact on how they play and react to adverse situations on the pitch. United players have often commented on the different camps within the squad and there often wasn't much intregration between rival teams.

This is from Sturridge on the 8th of June:

“We can’t win this thing if there’s egos or problems in the camp. It’s about us being here as a team. I look at other countries in many competitions and when they score everyone is off the bench and they are all involved, all jumping on each other celebrating – and that’s how we have to be. We have to be a team. It’s very important, on and off the pitch,” he said.

If you have to say something like that then there's a problem.

LorMal · 30-06-2016 11:16AM

PARlance wrote: »

Would you include never-ending conversations / debate about it as being for simpletons too?

No. That's just being interested and discussing it in a civilised, friendly way.

Ted111 · 30-06-2016 11:36AM

If english football culture is aggression and hostility then they should tap into that instead of going against the grain. Play a fast, thundering, aggressive game and put em under pressure. Big Sam for manager. The fans are already holding up their end.

fryup · 30-06-2016 12:15PM

All jokes aside, does anyone feel sorry for England ?

gramar · 30-06-2016 12:34PM

fryup wrote: »

All jokes aside, does anyone feel sorry for England ?

No. I always go into tournaments thinking I wouldn't mind seeing them do well but can't help hoping they get hammered then when the tournament starts. Same for most I'd say. When it comes to the English international team a little bit of the 800 years of oppression seeps out. Can't be helped if you're Irish.

Arghus · 30-06-2016 01:38PM

fryup wrote: »

All jokes aside, does anyone feel sorry for England ?

Yes, to a certain extent.

They aren't quite as obnoxious heading into tournaments like they were ten years ago and I feel a degree of sympathy for the players; there's always so much expectations and pressure on their shoulders. Because qualifying groups are usually fairly routine for England I think they are taken for granted and almost seen as a boring distraction from The Premier League. This only makes the pressure more amplified during tournaments and it's all wrapped up in these nebulous ideas like national pride and a bit of jingoism too. I could see how it feels like a nightmare.

But, sometimes I don't mind to see them crash out. In this tournament they'd been poor and disorganised, but yet some of their media had been talking their performances up, suggesting it was only a matter of time before they came good and thrashed somebody. They clearly went into the game with Iceland with some arragonce and then weren't able to handle it when the opposition were more organised and determined than them. I don't know if I feel like laughing at them or being sympathetic: ultimately, they got what they deserved.

This is big news now of course, but wait for the Premier League season to start for it all to disappear...

Though them being dumped out in the immediate aftermath of Brexit did give a delicious irony to the whole fiasco.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 30-06-2016 01:45PM

England played some nice football in the group games so I can see why people had their hopes up. They assumed that they'd eventually start taking their goal chances.

Arghus · 30-06-2016 02:09PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

England played some nice football in the group games so I can see why people had their hopes up. They assumed that they'd eventually start taking their goal chances.

Oh, yes, there were certain grounds for optimisim. But when the manager says they'll click and some team will eventually "pay" and, in the meantime, does nothing to address:

-the lack of a cutting edge up front
-no clear system of play
-players playing out of position and badly
-persisting with experiements that have until then produced dubious results

and then the team turns up against Iceland and blithely assumes that effort won't be required. Then I feel that this idea that the team would eventually find a way to win matches was a house of sand, built on a foundation of arrogance.

LorMal · 30-06-2016 03:31PM

Ted111 wrote: »

If english football culture is aggression and hostility then they should tap into that instead of going against the grain. Play a fast, thundering, aggressive game and put em under pressure. Big Sam for manager. The fans are already holding up their end.

Please no. :eek:

Winterlong · 30-06-2016 04:08PM

Jesus, I think I may have been suffering from withdrawal symptoms this last couple of days. Even had a chat with the wife last night.
Normal service resumes at 20:00 tonight!

Billy86 · 30-06-2016 04:17PM

gramar wrote: »

No. I always go into tournaments thinking I wouldn't mind seeing them do well but can't help hoping they get hammered then when the tournament starts. Same for most I'd say. When it comes to the English international team a little bit of the 800 years of oppression seeps out. Can't be helped if you're Irish.

I'm just on the anti-England brigade at tournaments for those priceless Sky Sports and tabloid meltdowns!

Arghus · 30-06-2016 04:21PM

Winterlong wrote: »

Jesus, I think I may have been suffering from withdrawal symptoms this last couple of days. Even had a chat with the wife last night.
Normal service resumes at 20:00 tonight!

It's been tough. And only seven games left.

Not too sure about the quality of the tournament. I like that the expansion to 24 teams makes it feel almost, almost like a World Cup in terms of the sheer amount of matches.

But, there is a catch.

Looking back on the group stages made me realise how dull a lot of the games really were. Teams knowing that they were still in with a chance of making it out of the group even if they lost their first two games defintely took some of the urgency out of the matches, resulting in so many cagey affairs. At least in the World Cup teams are usually busting a gut to get something out of every group game. It's not so much that the expansion to include another eight teams has resulted in a glut of inferior sides taking part, more that it's changed the stakes and dynamics for those involved. Not for the better, I think.

But, sure, there's money in it so it's here to stay, I guess.

BalcombeSt4 · 30-06-2016 04:43PM

pickarooney wrote: »

The problem with 5 a side is that there's always one arsehole taking it way too seriously an wrecking the buzz for everyone else.

No the problem with it is theres alway one or two ejits prancing around like around like little ****ing school girls.

Arsemageddon · 30-06-2016 05:41PM

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

A **** who wins.

Em, going by the evidence of your 5-a-side story you're actually a **** who loses.

I'm a good boxer as well if ya want a scrap

Cringe.

Mr. CooL ICE · 30-06-2016 05:44PM

Russian rioter has just become lacrosse supporter!

BalcombeSt4 · 30-06-2016 05:47PM

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Em, going by the evidence of your 5-a-side story you're actually a **** who loses.

Cringe.

Yeah sit there all day on your armchair and cringe keyboard warrior.

Winterlong · 30-06-2016 05:51PM

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Russian rioter has just become lacrosse supporter!

Euronly soccerball thread becomes cringy playground bun fight.

SeaFields · 30-06-2016 05:52PM

Winterlong wrote: »

Jesus, I think I may have been suffering from withdrawal symptoms this last couple of days. Even had a chat with the wife last night.
Normal service resumes at 20:00 tonight!

I know. It's weird. I don't even watch soccer normally and wouldn't support any team but it's like, "Yes, have a match to watch tonight"!

Collie D · 30-06-2016 05:57PM

SeaFields wrote: »

I know. It's weird. I don't even watch soccer normally and wouldn't support any team but it's like, "Yes, have a match to watch tonight"!

Well I've backed a draw and am considering also putting a few quid on 0-0 scoreline so a goalfest is guaranteed. Enjoy! You can thank me later for taking a financial hit for the greater good

Maireadio · 30-06-2016 06:12PM

Arghus wrote: »

It's been tough. And only seven games left.

Never fear, the Olympics will be on soon!

Mr. CooL ICE · 30-06-2016 06:17PM

Mod:

Calm down. Nobody's fighting anybody.

Dems not fightin' words.

Marje · 30-06-2016 07:34PM

Poland -v- Portugal

I'm going to go for Poland to win.

Euronly official After Hours soccerball thread

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