Season 6 Episode 10 "The Winds of Winter" - "Non book readers"

CMOTDibbler · 29-06-2016 07:15PM

Somebody apparently lip read what Lyanna Stark said to Ned. After about 50 viewings they're fairly sure what she whispered was

"His name is..." and then what follows is a three syllable word which starts with the letter 'J' and from part guesswork, part lip reading, is pretty certain that his name is Jaehaerys

GottaGetGatt · 29-06-2016 07:48PM

I think she said Jon tbh, hence why it skipped to Brans face.

wp_rathead · 29-06-2016 08:17PM

GottaGetGatt wrote: »

I think she said Jon tbh, hence why it skipped to Brans face.

o_0

leggo · 29-06-2016 08:51PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Somebody apparently lip read what Lyanna Stark said to Ned. After about 50 viewings they're fairly sure what she whispered was
"His name is..." and then what follows is a three syllable word which starts with the letter 'J' and from part guesswork, part lip reading, is pretty certain that his name is Jaehaerys

The interesting thing with that is that it would suggest that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped, as why would she honour the Targaeryan's by taking one of their names when she could easily switch up there with Ned? And THAT would mean there's a chance she was married to Rhaegar, which would strengthen Jon's claim to the Iron Throne. No point changing the name at all if that doesn't matter. So THAT means that we likely won't necessarily see Jon and Dany play nice and that he becomes her rival...

TCDStudent1 · 29-06-2016 09:06PM

leggo wrote: »

The interesting thing with that is that it would suggest that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped, as why would she honour the Targaeryan's by taking one of their names when she could easily switch up there with Ned? And THAT would mean there's a chance she was married to Rhaegar, which would strengthen Jon's claim to the Iron Throne. No point changing the name at all if that doesn't matter. So THAT means that we likely won't necessarily see Jon and Dany play nice and that he becomes her rival...

But he was already married.....

A love affair seems a more likely option.

leggo · 29-06-2016 09:10PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

But he was already married.....

A love affair seems a more likely option.

Marriages in Game of Thrones don't seem to have the same legally binding terms as they do IRL. All I'm saying is that they didn't choose to go quiet at that exact moment for no reason, a lip reader didn't guess that Jon's real name was the same as Rhaegar's grandfather coincidentally, and all being as it seems ties things up a bit too neatly when there's 13 hours left to fill...

Enzokk · 29-06-2016 09:39PM

leggo wrote: »

Marriages in Game of Thrones don't seem to have the same legally binding terms as they do IRL. All I'm saying is that they didn't choose to go quiet at that exact moment for no reason, a lip reader didn't guess that Jon's real name was the same as Rhaegar's grandfather coincidentally, and all being as it seems ties things up a bit too neatly when there's 13 hours left to fill...

I would agree about marriages having binding legal terms, but Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell and had kids with her already so Jon Snow was a bastard either way, just from different parents. His claims to any thrones is tenuous at best. I am not sure what the revelation actually means for the story unless he is able to ride the dragons with Deanerys. What it does show is that Ned Stark wasn't unfaithful though.

SeanJ09 · 29-06-2016 11:16PM

The girl that Arya was imitating when she killed Walder Frey, was the same girl that was flirtingly looking at Jamie earlier in the episode right?

alchemist33 · 29-06-2016 11:31PM

SeanJ09 wrote: »

The girl that Arya was imitating when she killed Walder Frey, was the same girl that was flirtingly looking at Jamie earlier in the episode right?

Yep

Vojera · 29-06-2016 11:33PM

leggo wrote: »

No point changing the name at all if that doesn't matter.

Whether Jon has a legitimate claim or not, Robert would have murdered the **** out of him for having a name like Jaehaerys. It would have clearly marked him as a Targaryan descendant and Robert was determined to wipe out that entire line.

Jayop · 29-06-2016 11:36PM

So, for me the highpoint in this series was this lady. She absolutely stole every scene she was in and I really hope we see more of her int he next seasons.

mzungu · 29-06-2016 11:49PM

Bacchus wrote: »

There was some chat in earlier threads that he might be the whispers that drove the mad king... mad.

I wonder will there be some ultimate twist that Bran HAD to drive the mad king mad in order to set off a chain of events leading to the defeat of the Knight King? And therefore Bran is responsible for the whole darn mess but it was necessary to rid the world of the Knight King and the White Walkers.

That gets Jaime off the hook too!

CMOTDibbler · 29-06-2016 11:51PM

Jayop wrote: »

So, for me the highpoint in this series was this lady. She absolutely stole every scene she was in and I really hope we see more of her int he next seasons.

Well she's landed herself the lead role in a new BBC childrens series called 'Worst Witch'.

Talent like that doesn't stay on the shelf.

The show runners said that they got the cast to come in on their day off to help her prepare for her first day on GoT. Liam Cunningham said that she had every word, inflection and mamnmerism spot on. After half an hour they went home feeling faintly embarrassed.

SeanJ09 · 29-06-2016 11:51PM

alchemist33 wrote: »

Yep

Why didn't Arya try and kill Jamie then?

CMOTDibbler · 29-06-2016 11:54PM

SeanJ09 wrote: »

Why didn't Arya try and kill Jamie then?

He wasn't on her list and killing him might have ended any chance she'd have at Frey.

Afterwards she'd need to scarper and Jaime was gone the next day anyway.

mzungu · 30-06-2016 12:08AM

Ser Gregor.

2016_GameOfThronesMountain3_280616_HBO.jpg.jpg

golfball37 · 30-06-2016 12:46AM

Enzokk wrote: »

I would agree about marriages having binding legal terms, but Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell and had kids with her already so Jon Snow was a bastard either way, just from different parents. His claims to any thrones is tenuous at best. I am not sure what the revelation actually means for the story unless he is able to ride the dragons with Deanerys. What it does show is that Ned Stark wasn't unfaithful though.

There's talk that Lyanna converted Rhaegar to the religion of the old gods, in which case multiple marriages were allowed.

RobertKK · 30-06-2016 12:50AM

mzungu wrote: »

Ser Gregor.

Shame that Cersei has him torturing the nun.

leggo · 30-06-2016 01:15AM

He raped her right? At least that's what we're led to believe. I felt really shady about the morality of that scene. On one hand, we empathise with Cersei - it feels semi-celebratory almost as she 'wineboards' her - because of what she was forced to endure at the hands of the nun. This is supposed to be revenge porn, ala Ramsey. Then it quickly becomes...something else.

I get moral ambiguity. I love Cersei's character and how she's written in such shades of grey. I love this show and previously thought it got a hard time because of past rape scenes, when it clearly always portrayed the rapists as pure evil men. But, for me, this blurred a line that shouldn't be blurred and kinda revealed a disturbing side of Beinoff and Weiss' moral compass. They're sick ****s, we know this and kinda enjoy how it manifests in a bad ass TV show, but they did themselves no favours here for me...

J. Marston · 30-06-2016 01:17AM

Jayop wrote: »

So, for me the highpoint in this series was this lady. She absolutely stole every scene she was in and I really hope we see more of her int he next seasons.

I don't know how it would happen but a scene with her and Lady Olenna could be great fun.

alchemist33 · 30-06-2016 01:28AM

leggo wrote: »

He raped her right? At least that's what we're led to believe. I felt really shady about the morality of that scene. On one hand, we empathise with Cersei - it feels semi-celebratory almost as she 'wineboards' her - because of what she was forced to endure at the hands of the nun. This is supposed to be revenge porn, ala Ramsey. Then it quickly becomes...something else.

I get moral ambiguity. I love Cersei's character and how she's written in such shades of grey. I love this show and previously thought it got a hard time because of past rape scenes, when it clearly always portrayed the rapists as pure evil men. But, for me, this blurred a line that shouldn't be blurred and kinda revealed a disturbing side of Beinoff and Weiss' moral compass. They're sick ****s, we know this and kinda enjoy how it manifests in a bad ass TV show, but they did themselves no favours here for me...

Maybe we're meant to think he rapes her but there isn't much indication he does. He took his helmet off but I don't remember anythin else coming off. He could just as easily be torturing her. I have a feeling he wouldn't be capable anymore anyway, not that the sex lives of the reanimated is an exact science.

Its dead Jim · 30-06-2016 01:50AM

leggo wrote: »

He raped her right? At least that's what we're led to believe. I felt really shady about the morality of that scene. On one hand, we empathise with Cersei - it feels semi-celebratory almost as she 'wineboards' her - because of what she was forced to endure at the hands of the nun. This is supposed to be revenge porn, ala Ramsey. Then it quickly becomes...something else.

I get moral ambiguity. I love Cersei's character and how she's written in such shades of grey. I love this show and previously thought it got a hard time because of past rape scenes, when it clearly always portrayed the rapists as pure evil men. But, for me, this blurred a line that shouldn't be blurred and kinda revealed a disturbing side of Beinoff and Weiss' moral compass. They're sick ****s, we know this and kinda enjoy how it manifests in a bad ass TV show, but they did themselves no favours here for me...

I was wondering that myself. He was a bit fond of raping when fully alive. Not sure if everything works down there.

BoJack Horseman · 30-06-2016 01:55AM

J. Marston wrote: »

I don't know how it would happen but a scene with her and Lady Olenna could be great fun.

Throw Bron into that mix & you have an odd-couple/2 & half men sitcom mashup that will be the pinnacle of TV.

J. Marston · 30-06-2016 02:19AM

The scene was meant to be worse, but they couldn’t do it. This is like the tame version.

That's what Lena Headey said about the Septa Unella scene. So yeah, it was probably rape.

duploelabs · 30-06-2016 07:43AM

I was half expecting the Mountain to say 'You're my wife NAW' like Papa Lazarou

Vojera · 30-06-2016 08:35AM

leggo wrote: »

He raped her right? At least that's what we're led to believe. I felt really shady about the morality of that scene. On one hand, we empathise with Cersei - it feels semi-celebratory almost as she 'wineboards' her - because of what she was forced to endure at the hands of the nun. This is supposed to be revenge porn, ala Ramsey. Then it quickly becomes...something else.

I get moral ambiguity. I love Cersei's character and how she's written in such shades of grey. I love this show and previously thought it got a hard time because of past rape scenes, when it clearly always portrayed the rapists as pure evil men. But, for me, this blurred a line that shouldn't be blurred and kinda revealed a disturbing side of Beinoff and Weiss' moral compass. They're sick ****s, we know this and kinda enjoy how it manifests in a bad ass TV show, but they did themselves no favours here for me...

To be honest I think making you feel uncomfortable is exactly what they were going for. And while there was a bit of a celebratory feel to the beginning of Cersei and Septa Unella's scene, I don't think we were ever meant to feel that Cersei was in the right for unleashing the Mountain on her (whatever he ended up doing). I think it was a marker for how far gone she is, how cold and how cruel she can be without her children there to temper her.

leggo · 30-06-2016 09:02AM

Vojera wrote: »

To be honest I think making you feel uncomfortable is exactly what they were going for. And while there was a bit of a celebratory feel to the beginning of Cersei and Septa Unella's scene, I don't think we were ever meant to feel that Cersei was in the right for unleashing the Mountain on her (whatever he ended up doing). I think it was a marker for how far gone she is, how cold and how cruel she can be without her children there to temper her.

Yeah, I do appreciate that, and it also established how she'd become consumed by revenge so much she pulled The Mountain away from watching Tommen which allowed Tommen to kill himself. But it kinda plays into the criticism of Beinoff and Weiss from last year about them using rape as a plot device when it should really be used as an end game.

Again, I love the show and I'm not trying to kill the buzz, this was one of the top 5 episodes they've done easily, but that one scene made me uneasy in a bad way when they brought rape into it unnecessarily.

Sleepy · 30-06-2016 09:20AM

In many ways, Game of Thrones is a story of medieval war, it's been long established that rape is a weapon of war in this world (the Dothraki's "we will rape their women" cries, and indeed their actions when they raided the Mhazereen village where Danaerys encountered Mirri Maz Dur). It's already been established that Gregor Clegane is a rapist.

It's long since established that Cersei is a vindictive bitch and, in this instance, she had some justification for wanting revenge on the Septa who had mistreated her during her captivity.

So in a world where rape is an established weapon of war (not unlike our own tbh, where it would only be considered a war crime in the past century or so), where a vicious despot has a grudge to settle with a person for whom a vow of chastity is a defining part of their life, it's entirely consistent with her character that Cersei would have her henchmen rape the Septa before slowly killing her.

Vojera · 30-06-2016 10:04AM

Sleepy wrote: »

So in a world where rape is an established weapon of war (not unlike our own tbh, where it would only be considered a war crime in the past century or so), where a vicious despot has a grudge to settle with a person for whom a vow of chastity is a defining part of their life, it's entirely consistent with her character that Cersei would have her henchmen rape the Septa before slowly killing her.

I think this is the crucial part. Even the way that Cersei touches the Septa while she walks around her is designed to make the Septa cringe away from her. There was a sexual element to it and for someone like Septa Unella for whom her chastity is defining, to be touched in that way, even if only briefly, and touched by a woman, which is even worse in the eyes of the Seven, would be worse to the Septa than a punch in the face. And Cersei knows that. Her every move and every word in that scene was calculated to make Septa Unella as uncomfortable and frightened as possible.

Dave0301 · 30-06-2016 10:19AM

leggo wrote: »

Yeah, I do appreciate that, and it also established how she'd become consumed by revenge so much she pulled The Mountain away from watching Tommen which allowed Tommen to kill himself. But it kinda plays into the criticism of Beinoff and Weiss from last year about them using rape as a plot device when it should really be used as an end game.

Again, I love the show and I'm not trying to kill the buzz, this was one of the top 5 episodes they've done easily, but that one scene made me uneasy in a bad way when they brought rape into it unnecessarily.

It wasn't used unnecessarily. Given the time period of the show, rape would have been a common weapon to inflict on people at the time, and indeed, it has been a recurring theme in the show.

The visceral reaction that people have to scenes in the show is due to the gritty realism that is evident.

Trust me, I imagine that scene will be way worse when GRRM writes it

Season 6 Episode 10 "The Winds of Winter" - "Non book readers"

Comments