Season 6 Episode 10 "The Winds of Winter" - "Non book readers"

Bacchus

I think part of the strong reaction to Cersei's revenge (whatever that was exactly, it was purposefully left to the viewer to fill in the horror blanks) is in part because at first the viewer is a bit "yeah, finally a bit of revenge on that evil nun! Ha! Wineboarding, how Cersei! ... oh she's not letting her die now, ooooh, she's going to lock her in this room and let her starve to death, that's pretty evil but good enough for the evil nun.... oh wait... no.... WTF... why is the Mountain here.... oh God... what's he going to do! God damn you Cersei you evil masochistic b*tch!" .... so IMO, the viewer goes very quickly from being on board (i.e. complicit) in the revenge to realizing they are on board with a mad woman who has no depths to the horror she will inflict on others.

quad_red

Bacchus wrote: »

I think part of the strong reaction to Cersei's revenge (whatever that was exactly, it was purposefully left to the viewer to fill in the horror blanks) is in part because at first the viewer is a bit "yeah, finally a bit of revenge on that evil nun! Ha! Wineboarding, how Cersei! ... oh she's not letting her die now, ooooh, she's going to lock her in this room and let her starve to death, that's pretty evil but good enough for the evil nun.... oh wait... no.... WTF... why is the Mountain here.... oh God... what's he going to do! God damn you Cersei you evil masochistic b*tch!" .... so IMO, the viewer goes very quickly from being on board (i.e. complicit) in the revenge to realizing they are on board with a mad woman who has no depths to the horror she will inflict on others.

Exactly!

Moral ambiguity is GoT 101. Cersei is a thundering cow. But her humiliation, imprisonment, torture and the sexual violence of having her walk through the streets naked whilst being lambasted and assaulted by the mob - you can't help but feel she deserved some payback against the petty zealot who took great pleasure out of hurting her.

And then, just as you cheerfully get sucked in, you realise what a deeply vile person Cersei. That her time spent as a victim taught her nothing other than she needs to be the one dishing out the pain and hurt.

Dyr

leggo wrote: »

They're one in the same point. Why do you think I made the point that rape is never justified? I didn't think that needed expansion, but was opposed in that viewpoint so provided it. Where's the confusion?!

And, yes, veterans would probably have to make personal judgement calls before watching episodes like that, but fortunately it's well telegraphed with such catchy episode titles as 'Battle of the Bastards', so they can do so.

My point, since my first post here, was that the tone of this scene was near celebratory in nature as the bad guy was getting her comeuppance from the (relative) 'good guy' that they had wronged, then the idea of rape was so suddenly and harshly introduced. I'm not opposed to rape being used as a plot device, in fact I defended specific uses of it in this show previously, but I felt this was one bad judgement call in an otherwise amazing episode.

I'll say it again: it's infuriating being patronised and then having to explain the same point again because you didn't understand what I was saying. It's like I tell my little sister when she gets cheeky: a crucial part of being a smart-arse is that you're actually being smart in doing so, or else you're just being a bit of an arse.

Oh I get what you're saying I just think it's the usual high horse tripe that's in vogue.

Ser Zombie getting all rapey with Sister Stern in that scene makes perfect sense if you're actually paying attention as opposed to already being up on your high horse and ready to charge

Rape as a plot device is no more different to any of the other grisly, violent scenes that crop up on the show, there's no need for the writers to take into account the views of the league of moral arbitrators on what the appropriate tone is.

Frank O. Pinion

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

But he was already married.....

A love affair seems a more likely option.

The very first King of The Seven Kingdoms, Aegon I Targaryen had two wifes, his sisters, Visenya and Rhaenys.

Tenger

PaddyWilliams wrote: »

Did she actually get raped though? I think the screams happened so quickly, that he was torturing her. He's in a full suit of armour, we only see the helmet coming off. Plus he's 'undead'. I, personally, think that he was torturing her, but that remains to be seen. Hopefully, will be cleared up next season.

Personally I think being trapped in a room with an animated monster who is the antithesis of her faith is mental torture for the Septa. As the door closes we dont see Ser Gregor making any further movement. For the Septa to to trapped and forced to stare at that zombie would be mental torture.

Avatar MIA

Tenger wrote: »

would be mental torture.

As apposed to the severe, prolonged mental torture suffered by Theon. Oh, and having his meat and two veg hacked off.

I have no problem with GOT's use of rape as a tool of war. But I didn't think it was rape till I read it here. He doesn't move and I just figured she was screaming from fear at his grotesque features and realization that she was in for days or weeks of agony.

The talk of where the line is is a bit moot by the end of season 6 anyways. Genital mutilation, child marriage, torture, rape and rape as a weapon of war still happen today. People who can't handle seeing it on tv would have stopped watching ages ago.

I also think it's a bit rich for feminists to be up in arms. Even a couple of episodes ago, Theon was being laughed at for losing his dick and it's all grand. Whereas the same women are advocating and end to female genital mutilation. They likely don't even see the parallel.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

I have no problem with GOT's use of rape as a tool of war. But I didn't think it was rape till I read it here. He doesn't move and I just figured she was screaming from fear at his grotesque features and realization that she was in for days or weeks of agony.

The talk of where the line is is a bit moot by the end of season 6 anyways. Genital mutilation, child marriage, torture, rape and rape as a weapon of war still happen today. People who can't handle seeing it on tv would have stopped watching ages ago.

I also think it's a bit rich for feminists to be up in arms. Even a couple of episodes ago, Theon was being laughed at for losing his dick and it's all grand. Whereas the same women are advocating and end to female genital mutilation. They likely don't even see the parallel.

but we dont know it is rape. some people have assumed it is. it could quite easily be simply torture. i think they deliberately left it up to the viewers imagination.

Sleepy

I thought the facts that he was undressing, that Cersei had been deliberately caressing the Septa, that Gregor Clegane has been established as a rapist and Cersei's "Shame, Shame, Shame" as she smirked her way down the corridor telegraphed what was happening in the room pretty clearly.

Cersei promised the Septa that she wouldn't be dying that day and, lets face it, the mountain wasn't exactly the sort you'd trust to prolong someone's death even before he was zombified... one would imagine Qyburn would be the pawn she'd use for that kind of torture.

I think it was fairly clearly spelled out what was about to happen tbh.

J. Marston

It's easy to assume because it's Gregor Clegane.

In season one, a peasant told Ned how Clegane and his men raped women before killing them while on their rampage throughout the Riverlands. He gladly told Oberyn just before he popped his head that he raped Elia Martell and smashed her head in.

Tenger

Sleepy wrote: »

I thought the facts that he was undressing, that Cersei had been deliberately caressing the Septa, that Gregor Clegane has been established as a rapist.........

I think it was fairly clearly spelled out what was about to happen tbh.

All I saw was him taking off his helmet, he then stood over the table. As the door closed I didnt see hom making any other movements.

Avatar MIA

Deleted User wrote: »

I also think it's a bit rich for feminists to be up in arms. Even a couple of episodes ago, Theon was being laughed at for losing his dick and it's all grand. Whereas the same women are advocating and end to female genital mutilation. They likely don't even see the parallel.

Not to mention the entire army of unsullied.

Everyone is treated equally badly in GoT :eek:

EagererBeaver

leggo wrote: »

Yeah, I do appreciate that, and it also established how she'd become consumed by revenge so much she pulled The Mountain away from watching Tommen which allowed Tommen to kill himself. But it kinda plays into the criticism of Beinoff and Weiss from last year about them using rape as a plot device when it should really be used as an end game.

Again, I love the show and I'm not trying to kill the buzz, this was one of the top 5 episodes they've done easily, but that one scene made me uneasy in a bad way when they brought rape into it unnecessarily.

They haven't brought rape into it though. It's left up to the viewer to decide and interpret it. You're the one who has decided that for you, it's rape. Given what's happened the Mountain, I'm not sure that sort of thing would interest him.

Billy86

I asked before and I'll ask again -- how does an essentially reanimated corpse with very little (if any) autonomy even get an erection?

Frank O. Pinion

Billy86 wrote: »

I asked before and I'll ask again -- how does an essentially reanimated corpse with very little (if any) autonomy even get an erection?

By getting presented with a hottie like Septa Unella.

EagererBeaver

Sleepy wrote: »

I thought the facts that he was undressing, that Cersei had been deliberately caressing the Septa, that Gregor Clegane has been established as a rapist and Cersei's "Shame, Shame, Shame" as she smirked her way down the corridor telegraphed what was happening in the room pretty clearly.

Cersei promised the Septa that she wouldn't be dying that day and, lets face it, the mountain wasn't exactly the sort you'd trust to prolong someone's death even before he was zombified... one would imagine Qyburn would be the pawn she'd use for that kind of torture.

I think it was fairly clearly spelled out what was about to happen tbh.

On the contrary, the Mountain was well known for torture he committed, keeping his victims alive so they'd endure more pain.

He wasn't "undressing", he took off his helmet. He may have raped her, he may not have done. If you've decided that he has, that's up to you (not you specifically Sleepy).

TCDStudent1

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

The very first King of The Seven Kingdoms, Aegon I Targaryen had two wifes, his sisters, Visenya and Rhaenys.

That is interesting. I doubt lyanna would be happy being a 2nd wife but I'd say we will see some twist in this story. It is weird that fans have become obsessed with it as ultimately, does it make a difference....

leggo

Billy86 wrote: »

I asked before and I'll ask again -- how does an essentially reanimated corpse with very little (if any) autonomy even get an erection?

You could stop the question at "how does an essentially reanimated corpse?" and the answer is, "It doesn't. It's not real or possible. They can make up any rules they want because it's their concept."

Akrasia

Billy86 wrote: »

I asked before and I'll ask again -- how does an essentially reanimated corpse with very little (if any) autonomy even get an erection?

Joffrey didnt need an erection to do some of the raping that he got up to.

Anyway, torture is less worse than rape now?

Are we really having this argument?

Dyr

Nunny is a puritanical zealot

Cersei is a sociopathic libertine

Cersei knew that torturing a zealot to death is'nt really much of a revenge, they don't mind being martyred for their beliefs. Nunny actually spelled that out to the viewer

That's why Cersei let Nunny know events were about to take a turn for the worse on the chastity front courtesy of an undead monster. Because she knew that was just the ticket for her revenge.

That's why she starts repeating nunnys "shame" line as she leaves.

BoJack Horseman

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

By getting presented with a hottie like Septa Unella.

Damn right

Duckworth_Luas

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Damn right

They blew the CGI budget for Season 7 already!

dimwittedrep

Bacchus wrote: »

"God damn you Cersei you evil masochistic b*tch!"

Er, not that I'm an expert in these matters, but aren't you mixing up sadistic with masochistic?

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Liam O

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

That is interesting. I doubt lyanna would be happy being a 2nd wife but I'd say we will see some twist in this story. It is weird that fans have become obsessed with it as ultimately, does it make a difference....

Whether someone is a potential king or a bastard makes a huge difference tbh...

Bacchus

dimwittedrep wrote: »

Er, not that I'm an expert in these matters, but aren't you mixing up sadistic with masochistic?

Sorry yes, should be sadistic.

tringle

What to do at 9pm tonight?

Avatar MIA

tringle wrote: »

What to do at 9pm tonight?

Wait for another 5 hours and sit on the sofa feeling bereft.

CMOTDibbler

tringle wrote: »

What to do at 9pm tonight?

CdeC

Billy86 wrote: »

I asked before and I'll ask again -- how does an essentially reanimated corpse with very little (if any) autonomy even get an erection?

Rigor mortis my dear friend.

Also Zombies are not real so physiological rules wouldn't really apply here.