Euronly official After Hours soccerball thread

osarusan · 29-06-2016 12:59AM

The old cliches about them not caring enough, or the manager not being good enough, are coming out so they can avoid accepting the reality that their players and the league they play in is simply not good enough and bereft of the necessary tactical awareness.

The Irish team is just the same, but we don't have the same lofty expectations. We recognise our limitations more.

Arghus · 29-06-2016 02:14AM

osarusan wrote: »

The old cliches about them not caring enough, or the manager not being good enough, are coming out so they can avoid accepting the reality that their players and the league they play in is simply not good enough and bereft of the necessary tactical awareness.
.

I think Shearer coming out last night and slating the quality of the Premier League was a sign that people are beginning to accept that it's not of the high standard it's often sold as. A large portion of his day job is praising it for Match of The Day, so if even he's acknowledging it's failure I think we can say there is degree of acceptance of that fact at this stage.

diomed · 29-06-2016 05:51AM

It is possible that Iceland are a very good team and will beat France.

fryup · 29-06-2016 10:21AM

^^^^^^^^^^

they could, but i doubt it

Mec27 · 29-06-2016 10:22AM

osarusan wrote: »

The old cliches about them not caring enough, or the manager not being good enough, are coming out so they can avoid accepting the reality that their players and the league they play in is simply not good enough and bereft of the necessary tactical awareness.

The Irish team is just the same, but we don't have the same lofty expectations. We recognise our limitations more.

Its a coping mechanism. Of course they are.

valoren · 29-06-2016 10:56AM

LorMal wrote: »

As I said, he faded himself under the same weight of expectation. He's just being populist now. Easily done from the studio.

8 goals for Shearer at three Major tournaments. The golden boot in 96. He delivered.

10 goals for Lineker at four Major tournaments. A golden boot in 86. He delivered.

Contrast this with 7 goals for Rooney at six Major tournaments. That's a minimum of 18 games at Major tournaments.
Twice as many as Shearer with less goals returned. He might be the all time top scorer but it's goals at the big one's that truly matter.

To suggest Shearer faded under pressure is incorrect. He produced the goals, he converted his shootout penalties.

Rooney, while being a fabulous talent himself, has been exposed as just above average within the England setup. He is the epitome of the hype in English football, a talented footballer who is portrayed as world class. It helps to be surrounded by other fantastic players at United but come crunch time at Major tournaments he's been found seriously wanting when playing with ordinary, though committed and hungry compatriots.

As a pundit, Shearer, is vanilla. Cliched and formulaic. For him to resort to such criticism is unprecedented in English punditry. His harsh words are completely justified and the usual 'omerta' about being critical of England seems to have been thoroughly accepted.

I think of Spain and the success they've had. They're out of Euro 2016 too. Early.
No doubt the knives are out there too. Yet, they lost to Italy, potential winners now.
They had numerous chances, didn't convert, got knocked out. That's football. The fans and media will get over it.

Yet, they didn't get knocked to Iceland with an abject performance thoroughly devoid of strategy or purpose.
It's a watershed moment for english football.

andekwarhola · 29-06-2016 01:25PM

Iceland are a decent team that claimed some scalps when qualifying so the result was unexpected but not inconceivable.

Despite all the schadenfreude, England do have some good young players. I don't really buy the fact that they're significantly more arrogant than other big football countries/players. There's plenty of obscenely overpaid players everywhere in the tournament but pointing that out doesn't fit into a particular national narrative.

The assertions from so many Irish people about the premier league being such a venal, wealthy and overrated affront to football are ironic given the majority of them support teams in that league and pump money into it.

My feeling is that England are just not a tournament team like some other big football nations. They generally qualify well but with a few notable exceptions (1990 and 1996) under perform in the tournament to varying degrees and don't seem to have that tournament nous that countries like Germany and Italy have even when they have relatively fallow teams.

Spain were another example of an almost comically under-performing, big football nation until the last generation of players and perhaps will become so again.

England just don't seem to deal with the external factors (their own horrible media, historical expectation, the hatred directed to them from most neutrals etc) that well.

Just because of England's history in the game, they don't have the god-given right to do well in tournaments. It's more a logical fallacy that such a god-given right is routinely assigned to them as our pantomime postcolonial villains so people can fully enjoy the inevitable denouement afterwards.

HensVassal · 29-06-2016 03:05PM

LorMal wrote: »

its their job - nobody else gets paid. Its entertainment for everyone else. You'd swear it was important.

Ahh bollocks man, you don't get excited about football so it doesn't bother you how a team performs and you therefore try to trivialise it as just a game. It's entertainment yes, but you know what....so is music. If I paid 80 or 100 quid to see some renowned artist or band play a concert and they showed up an hour late, pissed drunk, sang and played out of key, took long breaks, played crap obscure shit instead of their hits and then fucked off early, I'd boo as well. And so would you. It their job to entertain to do it well and if they slack off like I just mentioned they deserve to be lambasted.

Realt Dearg Sec · 29-06-2016 03:22PM

HensVassal wrote: »

Ahh bollocks man, you don't like football so it doesn't bother you how a team performs and you therefore try to trivialise it as just a game. It's entertainment yes, but you know what....so is music. If I paid 80 or 100 quid to see some renowned artist or band play a concert and they showed up an hour late, pissed drunk, sang and played out of key, took long breaks, played crap obscure shit instead of their hits and then fucked off early, I'd boo as well. And so would you. It their job to entertain to do it well and if they slack off like I just mentioned they deserve to be lambasted.

The problem with all this is that the English players aren't paid for international duty. Technically they are, in the region of about 1000 pounds a game, depending on importance of the match. This is chicken feed, and they donate it all to charity anyway. They are basically volunteering to be vilified by a mob.

valoren · 29-06-2016 04:02PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

The problem with all this is that the English players aren't paid for international duty. Technically they are, in the region of about 1000 pounds a game, depending on importance of the match. This is chicken feed, and they donate it all to charity anyway. They are basically volunteering to be vilified by a mob.

There's an instrinsic value for representing your country.

You get more exposure, your value on the transfer market increases as you're an 'International', you can use it to negotiate contracts, you get more endorsement contracts. As professionals in a limited career span they rightly wish to maximise earnings within that window and being an international is part of that.

You can be certain there are members of the England squad who are relieved to come out of the tournament untarnished by not actually playing.

Beckham is the prime example. Vilified after France 98 for a couple of seconds of madness. Didn't do him any harm in terms of career earnings though. He arguably would have had a lucrative career without being an international. But is it worth the vitriol that would come with not wanting to represent your country? It's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't with any national team really.

Also on the question of their 'huge' pay packets. They are the entertainers. They get their cut in a multi billion dollar industry. No one should begrudge that. But I would liken the premier league to RTE to use a crude analogy. Some of the staff get paid ridiculous money yet their remuneration is no way reflective or indicative of the their actual talent, they are adequate and as Didi Hamann said, "They should be lighting candles every night before they go to bed".

gramar · 29-06-2016 04:30PM

valoren wrote: »

There's an instrinsic value for representing your country.

You get more exposure, your value on the transfer market increases as you're an 'International', you can use it to negotiate contracts, you get more endorsement contracts. As professionals in a limited career span they rightly wish to maximise earnings within that window and being an international is part of that.

You can be certain there are members of the England squad who are relieved to come out of the tournament untarnished by not actually playing.

Beckham is the prime example. Vilified after France 98 for a couple of seconds of madness. Didn't do him any harm in terms of career earnings though. He arguably would have had a lucrative career without being an international. But is it worth the vitriol that would come with not wanting to represent your country? It's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't with any national team really.

Also on the question of their 'huge' pay packets. They are the entertainers. They get their cut in a multi billion dollar industry. No one should begrudge that. But I would liken the premier league to RTE to use a crude analogy. Some of the staff get paid ridiculous money yet their remuneration is no way reflective or indicative of the their actual talent, they are adequate and as Didi Hamann said, "They should be lighting candles every night before they go to bed".

I think when clubs are looking to sign a player and the agent pushes for more as they're an England international they club will say..'ok...10 million less then'

HensVassal · 29-06-2016 05:13PM

LorMal wrote: »

Absolutely. The idea that you have to work yourself into a fever pitch is also a cliche. Calm, professional , intelligent, organised teams win most matches. The Germans are masters at it.

Yeah, those over-emotional, hot-blooded, tempestuous, excitable Latin Americans, Spaniards and Italians win fuck all, I heard.

LorMal · 29-06-2016 05:18PM

HensVassal wrote: »

Ahh bollocks man, you don't get excited about football so it doesn't bother you how a team performs and you therefore try to trivialise it as just a game. It's entertainment yes, but you know what....so is music. If I paid 80 or 100 quid to see some renowned artist or band play a concert and they showed up an hour late, pissed drunk, sang and played out of key, took long breaks, played crap obscure shit instead of their hits and then fucked off early, I'd boo as well. And so would you. It their job to entertain to do it well and if they slack off like I just mentioned they deserve to be lambasted.

Wrong. I enjoy football and I do get excited watching a good match. It is not trivialising it to say its just a game. What is it then? (Hint: It's just a game)

The players did their best - (why wouldn't they?) - they did not turn up 'pissed drunk' etc.

They do not deserve to be 'lambasted'. Thats for armchair 'supporters' with their replica jerseys and matching beer bellies. Man children.

LorMal · 29-06-2016 05:22PM

HensVassal wrote: »

Yeah, those over-emotional, hot-blooded, tempestuous, excitable Latin Americans, Spaniards and Italians win fuck all, I heard.

You are a bit overheated yourself there Hans. The Spanish, Italians, Argentinas etc are generally technically superior and play intelligent football.
Its not about 'hunger' - that's bollocks (as you say yourself).

HensVassal · 29-06-2016 05:26PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

The problem with all this is that the English players aren't paid for international duty. Technically they are, in the region of about 1000 pounds a game, depending on importance of the match. This is chicken feed, and they donate it all to charity anyway. They are basically volunteering to be vilified by a mob.

I'm aware they don't get paid for international duty, but LorMal was generalising that it's just a game, just entertainment and shouldn't be taken seriously. I'd assume his slant then applies to the domestic game as well and how that is just entertainment, just a game.

LorMal · 29-06-2016 05:31PM

HensVassal wrote: »

I'm aware they don't get paid for international duty, but LorMal was generalising that it's just a game, just entertainment and shouldn't be taken seriously. I'd assume his slant then applies to the domestic game as well and how that is just entertainment, just a game.

For those who are professional players, it's a job. For the rest of us, its just a game.
The anger and vitriol is for simpletons.

Realt Dearg Sec · 29-06-2016 06:36PM

HensVassal wrote: »

I'm aware they don't get paid for international duty, but LorMal was generalising that it's just a game, just entertainment and shouldn't be taken seriously. I'd assume his slant then applies to the domestic game as well and how that is just entertainment, just a game.

I don't agree that it's just a game, no, it is a fantastic channel for collective belonging and expression, at its best, and I love it. But I do think there's something a bit juvenile about grown adults screaming and roaring about sport and vilifying players. Some people have mentioned the gaa, which I'm heavily involved in. I love Kilkenny hurling, but in my experience people who actually play the game are seldom as exercised by the inter county stuff as those who don't. My suspicion is that for such fans in any sport, they are over invested in it, and it's not healthy. Like I say, I love it, it's more than a game, (hurling defined my identity profound ways) when my team wins I'm happy. But if your happiness actually depends on this stuff, you need to revaluate your relationship with the sport. (And again, for me hurling is vital to many of my closest friendships and even family relationships, is really vital to my life in that sense, and the rhythm of the sport is the rhythm of my homeplace, but I wouldn't be losing my **** and calling for Brian Cody's head if we lose to someone we expect to beat. The winning or losing is less important than the involvement the sport for me, winning is a bonus and losing when I'm playing is heartbreaking, but making a spectacle of yourself and insulting people you don't even know and with whom you've nothing in common...that's just sad)

Arghus · 29-06-2016 07:13PM

I love football but is really just a game.

It's up to each individual how much they want to care.

I'm all wrapped up in the Euros, but there's plenty of people around me who couldn't care less and they seem to be doing just fine.

niallo27 · 29-06-2016 07:34PM

osarusan wrote: »

The old cliches about them not caring enough, or the manager not being good enough, are coming out so they can avoid accepting the reality that their players and the league they play in is simply not good enough and bereft of the necessary tactical awareness.

The Irish team is just the same, but we don't have the same lofty expectations. We recognise our limitations more.

The welsh, Belgium, Italian, German all have a sizable amount of premier league players. They league is a pretty high standard. Its wasnt that long ago that the premier league had 3 teams in the champions league semi finals.

HensVassal · 29-06-2016 07:58PM

LorMal wrote: »

Wrong. I enjoy football and I do get excited watching a good match. It is not trivialising it to say its just a game. What is it then? (Hint: It's just a game)

The players did their best - (why wouldn't they?) - they did not turn up 'pissed drunk' etc.

They do not deserve to be 'lambasted'. Thats for armchair 'supporters' with their replica jerseys and matching beer bellies. Man children.

Well we know it's just a game and I don't get all bent out of shape over a club or international defeat. But this big business game is for the little people. You know, the ones who have little else in life to distract them from the humdrum and drudgery. And that's fine. That's their station. A billionaire isn't going to care much if Hamilton didn't do the business at Dubai if they're then off to swan around Monaco slinging cash on the roulette and crashing out on a yacht for the next week. But the majority of football fans will be sad going home because they're back at some dull job and annoyed that they're back in their small little world. So they boo. I agree that the gutter press should fcuk off with their sh1t, but I understand supporters being upset. You remember that crap of all the England players smoking cigars after getting turfed out of some other world cup. Bit of a slap in the face to Eddie the bricklayer wouldn't you say?

HensVassal · 29-06-2016 08:04PM

LorMal wrote: »

You are a bit overheated yourself there Hans. The Spanish, Italians, Argentinas etc are generally technically superior and play intelligent football.
Its not about 'hunger' - that's bollocks (as you say yourself).

Sweeping statement there. Who does the "etc" apply to? The Dutch, the Uruguayans, ?

Capt'n Midnight · 29-06-2016 08:10PM

valoren wrote: »

It's a watershed moment for english football.

It's not.

Historically England are jammy. They get lots of luck. That's what I thought was happening when they got the penalty.

Go back to 2001. England had beaten Germany 5:1 , Beckham was getting similar hype. And became a national hero for scoring the equaliser against Greece when they were 2:1 down three minutes into injury time.

Real skin of their teeth stuff.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2002/1575190.stm

Sven Goran Eriksson's team were trailing Greece 2-1 deep into injury time and looked destined for a difficult play-off against Ukraine.

But Beckham, having failed with five previous long-range free kicks, finally secured qualification for Japan and Korea with a virtuoso goal in the 93rd minute.

If you are a serious contender then how is Ukraine a difficult play off ?

BTW Germany were always coming out of that group, but the others were Greece, Finland and Albania. We had Holland and Portugal.

It's only a watershed for those who have ignored the bleeding obvious for years and years. The jammy luck that carried them into so many quarter finals is just that. How often have they been in easier groups then us ?

niallo27 · 29-06-2016 08:15PM

HensVassal wrote: »

Well we know it's just a game and I don't get all bent out of shape over a club or international defeat. But this big business game is for the little people. You know, the ones who have little else in life to distract them from the humdrum and drudgery. And that's fine. That's their station. A billionaire isn't going to care much if Hamilton didn't do the business at Dubai if they're then off to swan around Monaco slinging cash on the roulette and crashing out on a yacht for the next week. But the majority of football fans will be sad going home because they're back at some dull job and annoyed that they're back in their small little world. So they boo. I agree that the gutter press should fcuk off with their sh1t, but I understand supporters being upset. You remember that crap of all the England players smoking cigars after getting turfed out of some other world cup. Bit of a slap in the face to Eddie the bricklayer wouldn't you say?

Yes but the little people count for 99% of actual football supporters if not more. The little people are pretty important.

Stojkovic · 29-06-2016 08:30PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

How often have they been in easier groups then us ?

And when they're in a half decent qualfying group - 1994, 2008, they dont qualify. Or further back, 74 and 78. Although less teams qualified then.

Realt Dearg Sec · 29-06-2016 08:59PM

HensVassal wrote: »

Well we know it's just a game and I don't get all bent out of shape over a club or international defeat. But this big business game is for the little people. You know, the ones who have little else in life to distract them from the humdrum and drudgery. And that's fine. That's their station. A billionaire isn't going to care much if Hamilton didn't do the business at Dubai if they're then off to swan around Monaco slinging cash on the roulette and crashing out on a yacht for the next week. But the majority of football fans will be sad going home because they're back at some dull job and annoyed that they're back in their small little world. So they boo. I agree that the gutter press should fcuk off with their sh1t, but I understand supporters being upset. You remember that crap of all the England players smoking cigars after getting turfed out of some other world cup. Bit of a slap in the face to Eddie the bricklayer wouldn't you say?

Yeah that's a fair point. I think that for all their limitations our players are a great bunch of lads, and they give it as good a lash as they can. I also agree the English team can't always say the same thing. And I get that sometimes your bricklayer is going to be frustrated that these millionaires don't care as much as he does (or seem not to anyway). But those lads are in the same position as our players, so to me the real difference is the expectations placed on them and the horrible treatment in the press. It's not just that our lads love their country more.

But there again...

diomed · 30-06-2016 12:27AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNGwQpfoEG0

DEFTLEFTHAND · 30-06-2016 01:10AM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Yeah that's a fair point. I think that for all their limitations our players are a great bunch of lads, and they give it as good a lash as they can. I also agree the English team can't always say the same thing. And I get that sometimes your bricklayer is going to be frustrated that these millionaires don't care as much as he does (or seem not to anyway). But those lads are in the same position as our players, so to me the real difference is the expectations placed on them and the horrible treatment in the press. It's not just that our lads love their country more.

But there again...

Yes the expectations are completely different. We're a small country with a limited enough playing base, qualifying is an achievement for us and making the knockouts was an added bonus.

England have a massive playing base and a very strong league structure. They expect to be challenging in major tournaments not getting knocked out by the likes of Iceland (no disrespect)

valoren · 30-06-2016 09:06AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

It's not.

To clarify, I mean a watershed moment for english football as in the industry of english football. The penny has finally dropped for the players, the FA, Sky, the media, the pundits and the fans. The England national team are not at a level they believe they are.

They are a group of players who while not short of 'a professionals' honesty of effort' are simply major tournament participators and not title contenders. To now continue thinking so is only deluding themselves and to invite ridicule. The Iceland game, where the prevailing assumption by everyone that the game was essentially a training match for the France Quarter final, was that watershed moment. The 'tournament' teams, the Spains, the Italians, the Germans et al do not get knocked out of the European Championships by Iceland. It would be scandalous. England have been and they weren't unlucky or robbed. They were outplayed and soundly beaten.

andekwarhola · 30-06-2016 09:21AM

LorMal wrote: »

You are a bit overheated yourself there Hans. The Spanish, Italians, Argentinas etc are generally technically superior and play intelligent football.

To be fair, the problem with England in this tournament, and indeed in most tournaments, was about mental/tactical nous and spirit, and the historical momentum that comes with that. The England team this time was relatively decent technically. As anybody could actually clearly see if they watched the games before running to the laptop to laugh about them.

In fact, it's ironic that when you now see the English academy system playing catch up with mainland Europe to produce mostly ball-playing footballers, what England actually lacked against Iceland was old fashioned spirit, organisation and one or two of the more doughty players that they used to produce in droves (Bryan Robson, Stuart Pearce, Paul Ince and so on).

gramar · 30-06-2016 09:31AM

andekwarhola wrote: »

To be fair, the problem with England in this tournament, and indeed in most tournaments, was about mental/tactical nous and spirit, and the historical momentum that comes with that. The England team this time was relatively decent technically. As anybody could actually see if they watched the game before running to the laptop to laugh about them.

In fact, it's ironic that when you now see the English academy system playing catch up with mainland Europe to produce ball-playing footballers, what England actually lacked against Iceland was old fashioned spirit, organisation and one or two of the more doughty players they used to produce in droves (Bryan Robson, Stuart Pearce, Paul Ince, etc).

England had no confidence against Iceland. A few small things go wrong and players have no faith in themselves or their teammates to get them out of trouble. The doubts set in and I've no doubt that they're thinking 'here we go again...'. Some of the basic control and passing was awful, Ronney crossed from 5 yards outside the box and couldn't even get it in the box. Kane did the same hitting a deadball out of play and a freekick embarrassingly wide. That's the accumulated pressure of decades of failure that they've all grown up with and some have been involved in.

Some blame the player selection and formation but the players themselves skillwise couldn't do what would be expected of Sunday league players and do the basics correctly and that's because they can't handle the pressure of playing for their country.

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