Stephen Henderson and his appraisal of Irish football

Mec27 · 27-06-2016 01:19PM #1

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/league-of-ireland-boss-goes-on-epic-rant-about-irish-football-culture/84666

He is right of course, it must be quite annoying to be involved in Irish football and hear the repeated calls of Irish fans as 'the best football fans in the world' in a country where nobody can get people through their gates.

But at the same time football in England and Spain and Germany is the exception rather than the rule. There is nothing that says a football league should look as refined and glamarous as they do, and what does it matter at the end of the day? Its just football.

Harry Palmr · 27-06-2016 01:22PM

The word bandwagoners was mentioned on the radio this morning, wondering about domestic attendances but then again a large number of those supporters are actually casuals who turn up for a mix of craic holiday sun and football. No one should expect them to be freezing their arses off at Turners Cross in gale.

Mec27 · 27-06-2016 01:24PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The word bandwagoners was mentioned on the radio this morning, wondering about domestic attendances but then again a large number of those supporters are actually casuals who turn up for a mix of craic holiday sun and football. No one should expect them to be freezing their arses off at Turners Cross in gale.

Legit, it's just entertainment at the end of the day.

inforfun · 27-06-2016 01:30PM

I am not that man.
Just want to make that clear

Mec27 · 27-06-2016 01:33PM

'dictating a plan not suited to our race'

Umaro · 27-06-2016 01:35PM

He doesn't really say anything about fans - I think he's got an axe to grind with the people at the top of the FAI and a certain Ruud Dokter. Its hardly the fans who are at fault for decisions made in Abbotstown.

The main reason there was such brilliant travelling support was because France is so accessible. Should we make it to Russia or Qatar in the next few years you won't have many "bandwagoners" making the trip.

Lovely Bloke · 27-06-2016 01:35PM

is he talking about the rude doctor?

The_Kew_Tour · 27-06-2016 01:37PM

In this case Yes

Joe_ Public · 27-06-2016 01:39PM

Fair play to him. Articulating the anger and frustration lots of people in Irish football feel. I wonder will he get slapped with a big fine now for his troubles.

inforfun · 27-06-2016 01:43PM

Yeah, you have a guy who once was the Dutch womens team coach and supervised several youth selections at the Dutch FA and before that the same job in the province of Groningen.

Now that sounds not too bad to have someone with that pedigree as the guy transforming your youth football. Problem in my opnion is that the real work at Dutch youth level is dont by the clubs.
And that is where he never worked.

Even Azerbaidjan understood that if you want to develop youth football, you go for the guy in charge at the club with the best youth academy so they picked up Stanley Brard at Feyenoord.

Oat23 · 27-06-2016 01:46PM

He nails it here:
https://twitter.com/HOTSHOTZ2/status/747137758318198784?

After we were schooled by Belgium, there was some decent discussions on here, radio programs and in real life about the problems with Irish football and bleak outlook for the future. Then after the game against Italy B it was all sunshine and roses again. People went back to ignoring the problems.

We need to get absolutely destroyed in 2018 or 2020 qualifying for people to start giving a f*ck and try to force some real changes.

rob316 · 27-06-2016 01:46PM

People like to follow big events they have no interest in the actual run up to it. I was out for the game yesterday and there was hoards of people wrapped in the tricolor who you knew had little interest in the game, just the occasion much like we saw across the media for the Euros. Not everyone obviously but you can pick them out.

While its true to use the word bandwagoners, I don't like it to use it as I want to see a huge support for Ireland, I want to see Turners Cross packed out every week. As a Cork City supporter I find it disheartening when 6/7k turn up to a full house when Dundalk are in town, the next week then half that will attend.

People complain about the quality of the LOI but if its not supported it can't improve. FAI have to rebuild football in this country but the population also needs to change their attitude towards it.

rob316 · 27-06-2016 01:50PM

Oat23 wrote: »

He nails it here:
https://twitter.com/HOTSHOTZ2/status/747137758318198784?

After we were schooled by Belgium, there was some decent discussions on here, radio programs and in real life about the problems with Irish football and bleak outlook for the future. Then after the game against Italy B it was all sunshine and roses again. People went back to ignoring the problems.

We need to get absolutely destroyed in 2018 or 2020 qualifying for people to start giving a f*ck and try to force some real changes.

That's it, the FAI, Delaney will pat themselves on the back now and lap up all the praise for getting the an unfancied Irish side to the last 16 of European Championships for the first time ever.

It's awful to say but if were hammered to kingdom come by Italy, the real post mortem may have begun and benefited Irish football in the long run.

Joe_ Public · 27-06-2016 01:53PM

I don't remember the post mortems having much effect after 2012. Or for the 10 years before that when no Irish team could qualify for a finals. Or when the under 21s are seemingly going years without winning a decent match at all. If the political will isn't there to solve all the underlying issues that are hampering progress, it doesn't matter who you bring in as head of youth football. He hasn't a prayer of getting anything done.

Green Fella · 27-06-2016 02:03PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The word bandwagoners was mentioned on the radio this morning, wondering about domestic attendances but then again a large number of those supporters are actually casuals who turn up for a mix of craic holiday sun and football. No one should expect them to be freezing their arses off at Turners Cross in gale.

Maybe the shouldnt but when they are the self proclaimed best fans in the world, questions start getting raised how they only turn up once every 4 years

inforfun · 27-06-2016 02:03PM

It only makes it possible for Delaney to say: I am doing my best for Irish (youth) football. I even hired an experienced guy, all his life involved in youth football. In Holland no less.

Iang87 · 27-06-2016 02:04PM

rob316 wrote: »

That's it, the FAI, Delaney will pat themselves on the back now and lap up all the praise for getting the an unfancied Irish side to the last 16 of European Championships for the first time ever.

It's awful to say but if were hammered to kingdom come by Italy, the real post mortem may have begun and benefited Irish football in the long run.

We were in the last 16 in 2012.

I understand the point you are making though. However had the Euros not changed format firstly we would not have qualified in the first place and would not have gotten out of the group either.

The media wont ask the real questions though and if it one breaks the mould and does he wont be answered because it'll mean delaney and his yes men will have to ask themselves real questions that they have piss all interest in answering.

Green Fella · 27-06-2016 02:06PM

inforfun wrote: »

Yeah, you have a guy who once was the Dutch womens team coach and supervised several youth selections at the Dutch FA and before that the same job in the province of Groningen.

Now that sounds not too bad to have someone with that pedigree as the guy transforming your youth football. Problem in my opnion is that the real work at Dutch youth level is dont by the clubs.
And that is where he never worked.

Even Azerbaidjan understood that if you want to develop youth football, you go for the guy in charge at the club with the best youth academy so they picked up Stanley Brard at Feyenoord.

So the great Ruud Dokter who will change the fortunes of Irish football, is in fact inferior to his Azerbaijan equivalent. I'm sure nobody is surprised.
Dutch football or the Eredivise is hardly in the best place right now either Im sure you'll agree.

HalloweenJack · 27-06-2016 02:10PM

Iang87 wrote: »

I understand the point you are making though. However had the Euros not changed format firstly we would not have qualified in the first place and would not have gotten out of the group either.

Teams ahead of us in the FIFA rankings that didn't qualify for the Euros:
Holland and Bosnia
Teams ahead of us in the FIFA rankings that did worse than us at the Euros:
Turkey, Russia, Czech Republic, Ukraine and Austria.

I hate seeing this point dragged up. It shouldn't take away from our achievements. There's more places at stake but I think it makes qualifying more competitive. Smaller nations feel they have a chance of qualifying while bigger nations might get complacent.

Then, the teams that qualify get big tournament experience. The likes of Iceland, Wales, NI, Hungary and Albania will have that experience now. I think it can only help the development of those countries' sides.

The_Kew_Tour · 27-06-2016 02:12PM

2012 was a disaster and nothing changed, sadly

rob316 · 27-06-2016 02:12PM

Iang87 wrote: »

We were in the last 16 in 2012.

I understand the point you are making though. However had the Euros not changed format firstly we would not have qualified in the first place and would not have gotten out of the group either.

The media wont ask the real questions though and if it one breaks the mould and does he wont be answered because it'll mean delaney and his yes men will have to ask themselves real questions that they have piss all interest in answering.

I remember it being an absolute disaster.

El Horseboxo · 27-06-2016 02:13PM

The best fans in the world label is based on all the off field antics. Then there are some from inside the stadium where it is applied again because there was singing when Ireland lost. But Hungary done the same thing yesterday.

There are legit fans but I know a large part aren't and went to France for the craic and because it was so accessible. For the last Euros I went as part of a group about 20 strong. None of us go to Irish soccer gamed in Ireland, international or otherwise. And none of us went to a game in Poland. We went for the atmosphere and to drink. Nearly all this group had the jerseys on and during games you'd think they would follow the team to hell and back. But the reality was completely different.

Fast forward 4 years and of that group. About 12 went to France. And the same scenario unfolded. No international or domestic club games when at home. And no tickets for the matches over there. But they were part of the crowd for some of the videos.

I think a distinction needs to be made between being the best "fans" in the world, and the actual best fans in the world.

Joe_ Public · 27-06-2016 02:15PM

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Teams ahead of us in the FIFA rankings that didn't qualify for the Euros:
Holland and Bosnia
Teams ahead of us in the FIFA rankings that did worse than us at the Euros:
Turkey, Russia, Czech Republic, Ukraine and Austria.

I hate seeing this point dragged up. It shouldn't take away from our achievements. There's more places at stake but I think it makes qualifying more competitive. Smaller nations feel they have a chance of qualifying while bigger nations might get complacent.

Then, the teams that qualify get big tournament experience. The likes of Iceland, Wales, NI, Hungary and Albania will have that experience now. I think it can only help the development of those countries' sides.

What's helping the likes of those countries is having very efficient and well tailored development plans in place. Iceland have done extraordinary work over the past 15 years, Albania (with limited resources) has done well too and were unlucky and played well this tournament. Wales have a very smart set-up at association level and, it has to be said too, that N Ire do a lot of things better than us.

Iang87 · 27-06-2016 02:17PM

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Teams ahead of us in the FIFA rankings that didn't qualify for the Euros:
Holland and Bosnia
Teams ahead of us in the FIFA rankings that did worse than us at the Euros:
Turkey, Russia, Czech Republic, Ukraine and Austria.

I hate seeing this point dragged up. It shouldn't take away from our achievements. There's more places at stake but I think it makes qualifying more competitive. Smaller nations feel they have a chance of qualifying while bigger nations might get complacent.

Then, the teams that qualify get big tournament experience. The likes of Iceland, Wales, NI, Hungary and Albania will have that experience now. I think it can only help the development of those countries' sides.

The point being the criteria for being there was made easier shouldn't be brought against our achievements. That's like saying you couldn't pass the honours paper but now you're doing ordinary level and passed it so you should feel just as accomplished.

I'm not saying that Ireland shouldn't be proud and optimistic for the style they played against Italy and France. Its made me more optimistic for the future in terms of style than I have been in a long time. My point is that lets not overlook how we got there as opposed to what happened when we got there because if we are as lax in the world cup qualifying we wont be going

Green Fella · 27-06-2016 02:23PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

2012 was a disaster and nothing changed, sadly

The sad fact is, if we got that group in 2016 again it would have been the same result. We also technically didnt get any further. In saying that we were totally screwed with that group from the start, it was always going to be a disaster.

inforfun · 27-06-2016 02:27PM

Green Fella wrote: »

So the great Ruud Dokter who will change the fortunes of Irish football, is in fact inferior to his Azerbaijan equivalent. I'm sure nobody is surprised.
Dutch football or the Eredivise is hardly in the best place right now either Im sure you'll agree.

Well actually... he is inferior to the guy who was in charge at Qäbälä PFK ...
He left for Japan in the mean time.

Dutch national team is a matter of getting rid of Blind and things will be better again. But we have a mini Delaney in charge at the Dutch FA who knows he should leave his post when he kicks Blind to the kerbs.
So now they have appointed Dick Advocaat as his "assistent"

Eredivisie... well. Leave Twente out of it because that is comedy gold there. Other than that, stadiums are full apart from Vitesse who only have 66% capacity.
But there you have the fact they loan half of Chelsea every year so fans cant really warm to another new team every season.

Feyenoord had 9000 fans showing up for the 1st training of the season yesterday.

And well.... money talks so Dutch clubs competing for European cups is a thing from the past.
In the past players stayed in Holland till they were 25/26 before going abroad to real top teams. Nowadays they go to mediocrity at 20/21 or get robbed from the youth academies at age 15.

So the "problems" Dutch football is having, is all relative. Really depends if you expect a Dutch CL winner soon or are more realistic....

NIMAN · 27-06-2016 02:40PM

Oat23 wrote: »

After we were schooled by Belgium, there was some decent discussions on here, radio programs and in real life about the problems with Irish football and bleak outlook for the future. Then after the game against Italy B it was all sunshine and roses again. People went back to ignoring the problems.

This happens at all levels though.

When for example an EPL teams gets a spanking in the CL by Barca, TalkSport and the red top papers are full of "we need to rethink how we play the game" etc etc.

Then that spanked team goes and stuffs West Brom at the weekend and all is good in the world again.

Same thing has been said everytime England have been sent home early from every tournament since 1966. But they didn't change (well not that much).

I agree that we probably as a nation got too excited about beating an Italian B team. For a while everyone thought we were world beaters again.

The game against France showed that hard work, graft, passion, heart etc will take you so far in a football match, but it rarely wins out in the end over skill, class and ability. You might get the odd freak victory like the game v Germany in the Aviva, but its the exception.

If we want to do something about our future ability to compete I think we need to address how we teach youngsters to play the game. Forget how the British do it and try to become more European. Less physical and more skillful. It might be a very slow process but it can work in the long term.

As for a perfect example, look at Germany. One night in 2001 they got spanked at home 1-5 by England. Their team was underperforming. It hurt them. The next day the ball was started rolling. They decided it wasn't going to happen again and they looked into their coaching methods, number of qualified coaches, youth development etc.

From a Guardian piece from 2014:
Over the past 12 years, the Germans have not only built 52 centres of excellence to school the most promising talents, but also 366 regional coaching bases where 1,300 professional, full-time coaches teach youngsters the basics of the modern game.

Back in 2002, when this massive undertaking – known as the Extended Talent Promotion Programme – was launched, both the German FA (DFB) and the professional clubs spent an annual €48 million on this system. The figure gradually rose over the years; today it has almost doubled.

This enormous investment was basically a very expensive admission that the Germans had missed more or less every bus that left the station during the 1990s. Throughout that decade, then-national coach Berti Vogts warned the country again and again that no talents were coming through and that Germany was resting on its laurels and would soon be overtaken by other countries

Joe_ Public · 27-06-2016 03:00PM

Short-termism is endemic in all sports and walks of life. After the first rugby test in South Africa, Joe Schmidt was a hero. After the second I read threads on here where people were calling for him to be sacked. I don't really follow the sport all that closely, but that felt like a fairly remarkable case of blinkered short-termism to me.

Kobe248 · 27-06-2016 06:45PM

Ireland should be run like the MLS

There shouldnt be any relegation

Were a small country using a format that doesnt suit us

Captain Havoc · 27-06-2016 08:17PM

Kobe248 wrote: »

Ireland should be run like the MLS

There shouldnt be any relegation

Were a small country using a format that doesnt suit us

UEFA demands a two tier system, so that isn't going to change. I hate all the negative talk, I love going to watch LOI, some of the stadiums are crap, some brilliant. Attendances aren't bad compared to other sports, I know someone will say All-Ireland final, or other one off rugby games etc.... but LOI has a consistent attendance level. I think too many people look across the water and think that's where it should be but I don't want to come across as saying that this sort of delusion should be confused with having a realistic ambition. Clubs that are at risk of falling away are badly run, you can blame the FAI, the lack of fans or whatever else but the clubs themselves are at fault for their own downfall, equally the clubs doing well deserve full credit for keeping their house in order and having creativity. I hope the clubs this week start on a successful European journey.

I don't agree with his point on the Euros, I think the LOI's success doesn't rely on the national team's. Again, I think it's up to the clubs to set up centres of excellence or links with colleges etc... Again, it's blame Ruud Dokter, it's never the club's fault.

I hope Stephen Henderson doesn't become disillusioned as he sounds like someone who works hard and we need people like that to stay in the game.

KingBrian2 · 27-06-2016 08:24PM

We have to remember this country is an extremely passionate sporting country be it Athletics, GAA, Rugby, Tennis, Cycling, Boxing, Horse Racing, hell even Cricket so Football falls behind and concentrating on the one sport never works for us with all these games were are attracted to.

Stephen Henderson and his appraisal of Irish football

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