Dogmeat Festival gets underway in China

muddypaws · 22-06-2016 10:56AM

c montgomery wrote: »

Lobsters are boiled alive and no one really cares. What's the difference here?

No difference, both practices should be stopped.

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

lobster dont got dem feelz tho

Current research would disagree.

I wouldn't eat dog or cat, but thats just my preference. I do eat meat, so for me to object to others eating a different meat is hypocritical. However, as has been said by many other posters, it is how the animals are treated and killed that is the issue for me.

I am friends with a woman that rescued a dog from China, her photo appeared on a campaign against this festival a few years ago, she was crammed into a crate along with loads of other dogs, but she had her paw stuck through the crate and she really caught people's attention. She was saved and now lives in Scotland, as a pet dog. She was actually meant to be going to a family in Northern Ireland, but the fosterer in Scotland fell in love with her and couldn't let her go. Her name is Miracle, and her story is well documented if you want to google it.

Smiles35 · 22-06-2016 11:12AM

A freind of mine went away to China, they were Irish born and bred but of Chinese heritage. All they had to say to me when they got back was ''They eat babys over there'' and left me with that. Reading this thread I sort of get the reason for that surmisation.

I'm sort of 'spiritual' and that's bad juju. Hope we get close enough to China one day to put pressure on their land to crack down on it.

wes · 22-06-2016 12:04PM

I don't really see it being much of our business really. Its not like there going around trying to get everyone to eat dog meat or anything.

dr.fuzzenstein · 22-06-2016 12:29PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Perhaps before cooking but dogs are regularly skinned alive in China for the fur trade. It's well documented.

Be warned, the following video is quite disturbing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVRKSY0DATI

I have ssen videos like this and I will never forget what I have seen.
The very fact that this post got ZERO thanks, whilst idiots defend this barbaric festival just goes to show the kind of arsehole wanker gob****e that would close their eyes to this sort of thing and make jokes about this or post irrelevant sh*te about lobsters and oysters. Only fcuking scum would treat ANY animal like that and only a fcuking arsehole would defend this.
Feel like I'm talking to you? I am! To your face!

edit:
Sorry, but FCUK this makes me angry!

DBB · 22-06-2016 12:34PM

wes wrote: »

I don't really see it being much of our business really. Its not like there going around trying to get everyone to eat dog meat or anything.

Ah, sure in that case, there's not much point giving a fcuk about any injustices or any inhumanity anywhere. We'll all just shut up, as long as it doesn't affect us, right?

wes · 22-06-2016 12:49PM

DBB wrote: »

Ah, sure in that case, there's not much point giving a fcuk about any injustices or any inhumanity anywhere. We'll all just shut up, as long as it doesn't affect us, right?

If we were talking about people, I would have a different opinion.

Secondly, there eating a different type of meat than I do. So what. That is there business at the end of the day.

An expose video's only provides information on the instances they portray, as you can find videos of animal cruelty that happen in Western butchers as well, but I am pretty sure most don't do that sort of thing.

So I am back to them eating a different meat to me, and some instance of animal cruelty, which again sadly pretty common the world over.

_Brian · 22-06-2016 01:54PM

I don't have a problem with them or anyone eating pretty much animal.

The manner in which animals are farmed and killed is a big issue and this is where pressure needs to be applied whenever we can.

I've been on and eaten meals on small farms in China and can tell you that their typical technology and methods of farming are 80-100 years behind what happens here or anywhere in Europe. 100 years ago we had fairly rough slaughter methods ourselves and relatively poor animal husbandry too.

It takes time for these things to develop but when we were acting similarly we didn't have the whole world looking in on us via YouTube and making Sudo moral judgments on us from their ivory towers.

DBB · 22-06-2016 02:10PM

wes wrote: »

If we were talking about people, I would have a different opinion.

I'm one of those people who can feel horror at any living creature enduring needless, and in this case calculated cruelty at the hands of others. It's oft trotted out in threads like this... How we treat those without a voice, of any species, says a lot about us.
Just remember, the standard of human welfare in China is beyond appalling too.

Secondly, there eating a different type of meat than I do. So what. That is there business at the end of the day.

Like I said before... Let's just turn a blind eye to horrendous welfare practices, coz sure, isn't it part of their culture and sure, it's not affecting me.

An expose video's only provides information on the instances they portray, as you can find videos of animal cruelty that happen in Western butchers as well, but I am pretty sure most don't do that sort of thing.

So I am back to them eating a different meat to me, and some instance of animal cruelty, which again sadly pretty common the world over.

Yep, I eat meat too. But not if I know there are inherent and fixable flaws in the way the animal is reared and killed. Hence, I eat neither chicken nor pork.
If I enjoyed the taste of dog, I think I'd eat it too... But not if it's killed as portrayed in the 3 separate TV documentaries I've watched in China and the Philippines as outlined.
Needless and barbaric treatment of any animal, including humans, should not be tolerated in our enlightened world, we have a far greater understanding of animal welfare and behaviour than even 20 years ago.

ScumLord · 22-06-2016 02:36PM

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

I was going to comment on this specific remark last night night but I couldn't because I would have been less than civil-much less.The atrocities carried out at yulin are well documented, and the fact that dogs and cats are being skinned alive, boiled alive (often slowly) and beaten do death with clubs due to the idea that the adrenaline cause by fear of death makes the meat taste better.Calling this BS is something that really really p**** me off.do your research before calling something BS-espacially something so disgusting and filthy as this specific 'festival'

The problem is the people spreading these messages do themselves no favours by exagerating the facts to create more outrage. Dogs being used for food is enough to disgust most western people. the rest of the stuff may have happened, but the sources are usually pretty untrustworthy. Stress hormones flooding through the body before death wouldn't make the meat taste better, unless it's some sort of local delicacy.

But I see the same accusations laid at Irish beef farmers and it's complete lies. Someone watched a video of someone in south America abusing cattle and somehow assumes farming is exactly the same everywhere and each day goes the exact same way where they just abuse animals for entertainment value.

China's a developing economy, these people may have little choice but to use dogs this way. If it comes down to starving or killing the cutest animal on the planet there isn't a person in this thread who would choose death. We live lovely comfortable lives here, all the dirty work of life has been hidden away from us. I wouldn't be so quick to judge those people until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

andekwarhola · 22-06-2016 02:40PM

Dunno, I never really get the cognitive dissonance argument when it comes to eating certain animals. I like eating meat and I can reconcile the concept of owning an animal as a pet and eating an animal of the same species without feeling hypocritical.

wes · 22-06-2016 02:42PM

DBB wrote: »

I'm one of those people who can feel horror at any living creature enduring needless, and in this case calculated cruelty at the hands of others. It's oft trotted out in threads like this... How we treat those without a voice, of any species, says a lot about us.
Just remember, the standard of human welfare in China is beyond appalling too.

There will always be some cruelty inherent to any method of slaughter. There is no way to avoid that, so if you eat meat you need to accept that.

The slaughter method will surely improve as China make economic progress.

As for Human Rights, I agree a long way to go, and that is where people should focus there effort imho, but that is separate to the claims in animal cruelty.

DBB wrote: »

Like I said before... Let's just turn a blind eye to horrendous welfare practices, coz sure, isn't it part of their culture and sure, it's not affecting me.

It is there culture, and honestly having a group of foreigners telling people what they can and cannot do, isn't always helpful, and in fact can result in the exact opposite happening. I simply don't believe the stories are any where near as common as some people are making out, and it smacks of groups using disgust of people eating an animal other people think of as pets, to further there particular agenda.

DBB wrote: »

Yep, I eat meat too. But not if I know there are inherent and fixable flaws in the way the animal is reared and killed. Hence, I eat neither chicken nor pork.
If I enjoyed the taste of dog, I think I'd eat it too... But not if it's killed as portrayed in the 3 separate TV documentaries I've watched in China and the Philippines as outlined.

As a general rule I take animal right documentaries with a pinch of salt. I am sure most of deficiencies in the system of countries like China is due to the lack of more modern methods of slaughter, as opposed stuff being done for the sake of cruelty, and that specific instances of deliberate cruelty are more likely the exception and not the norm.

DBB wrote: »

Needless and barbaric treatment of any animal, including humans, should not be tolerated in our enlightened world, we have a far greater understanding of animal welfare and behaviour than even 20 years ago.

I don't think you can really lump both of those things in together, as most people see themselves as a part from animals, and you would do more harm than good making such an association.

Shenshen · 22-06-2016 02:47PM

ScumLord wrote: »

China's a developing economy, these people may have little choice but to use dogs this way. If it comes down to starving or killing the cutest animal on the planet there isn't a person in this thread who would choose death. We live lovely comfortable lives here, all the dirty work of life has been hidden away from us. I wouldn't be so quick to judge those people until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

I'm not sure how much I would agree with that argument - yes, in desperate situations people will take desperate measures, and I would not want to blame them.
But I wonder how desperate the majority of Chinese people really is. Is it really a matter of eating a dog or starving? And if that is indeed the case, does it even make sense to raise dogs for food?
One of the reasons most farm animals the world over are NOT carnivores is because it's extremely costly to feed meat you could eat yourself to a dog only to then eat the dog. If you're facing starvation or you're desperate for meat, a carnivore is by no means a sensible choice.
And would starving communities really start festivals?

Without wanting to be judgmental, I suspect the reason for this is actually the polar opposite of starvation. I suspect that dog meat, much like shark fins, frogs' legs and tiger penises, is considered a luxury. Something special for people who can afford it.
And with the Chinese economy having created much more wealth and more and more Chinese people now being able to afford it, festivals like these spring up and grow.

22-06-2016 03:07PM

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

I was going to comment on this specific remark last night night but I couldn't because I would have been less than civil-much less.The atrocities carried out at yulin are well documented, and the fact that dogs and cats are being skinned alive, boiled alive (often slowly) and beaten do death with clubs due to the idea that the adrenaline cause by fear of death makes the meat taste better.Calling this BS is something that really really p**** me off.do your research

Adrenaline taints meat, it does not enhance the taste.

This is common knowledge. There is no clear motivation for boiling mammals alive as a way of cooking them, nor is there any reliable evidence that it happens.

Can you provide evidence that adrenaline enhances the taste of meat, when every other reliable source says the exact opposite?

This is why we usually stun cattle before slitting their carotid arteries. This is why we 'drown' pigs in baths of carbon monoxide prior to slaughter. Because adrenaline taints meat.

ScumLord · 22-06-2016 03:27PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Without wanting to be judgmental, I suspect the reason for this is actually the polar opposite of starvation. I suspect that dog meat, much like shark fins, frogs' legs and tiger penises, is considered a luxury. Something special for people who can afford it.
And with the Chinese economy having created much more wealth and more and more Chinese people now being able to afford it, festivals like these spring up and grow.

It has created wealth for some chinese, there's still a big divide between urban and rural with rural people essentially being second class citizens that don't even have a right to an education.

You could be right that it's serving that Chinese medicine market. But at the same time, there may still be no other alternative economic opportunities for the people in that area. As with the Irish famine there could be all kinds of economic and social issues preventing them from doing more regular farming.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Adrenaline taints meat, it does not enhance the taste.

This is common knowledge. There is no clear motivation for boiling mammals alive as a way of cooking them, nor is there any reliable evidence that it happens.

When you think about it, it also makes no sense to boil the animal alive, they would have to be gutted and usually drained of blood before they can be used as food. Boiling them alive with the intestines in would only spoil the meat and make it inedible.

Shenshen · 22-06-2016 03:30PM

ScumLord wrote: »

It has created wealth for some chinese, there's still a big divide between urban and rural with rural people essentially being second class citizens that don't even have a right to an education.

You could be right that it's serving that Chinese medicine market. But at the same time, there may still be no other alternative economic opportunities for the people in that area. As with the Irish famine there could be all kinds of economic and social issues preventing them from doing more regular farming.

Possibly, but then where do they get the meat they feed the dogs on from?
Or did you mean people in the area make a living by selling dog meat to the more well-off?

I've no doubt at all that China is an unequal and unfair society, but it's been a good few decades since there was widespread famine.

ScumLord · 22-06-2016 03:38PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Possibly, but then where do they get the meat they feed the dogs on from?
Or did you mean people in the area make a living by selling dog meat to the more well-off?

That they're selling it to more well off. All we have to do is look at what we feed our own dogs here to see it's possible to make a very cheap dog food. Just fill it full of ash.

I've no doubt at all that China is an unequal and unfair society, but it's been a good few decades since there was widespread famine.

Sorry, my point was that there was no famine in Ireland, there was plenty of food to feed the Irish people we just weren't entitled to it. Something similar could be happening in China, not to the extent it causes a famine but keeps a lot of people out of setting up legitimate business and climbing the social ladder.

Shenshen · 22-06-2016 03:47PM

ScumLord wrote: »

That they're selling it to more well off. All we have to do is look at what we feed our own dogs here to see it's possible to make a very cheap dog food. Just fill it full of ash.

Which sort of brings the argument full circle in a way.
Dogs are being killed and eaten not out of nutritional necessity, but because enough Chinese people now have enough money to afford this "luxury".

The demand for it doesn't come from the underprivileged side of society, but from the nouveau riche.

ScumLord · 22-06-2016 03:57PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Which sort of brings the argument full circle in a way.
Dogs are being killed and eaten not out of nutritional necessity, but because enough Chinese people now have enough money to afford this "luxury".

The demand for it doesn't come from the underprivileged side of society, but from the nouveau riche.

Maybe. Hopefully that's slowly changing too, as well off and middle class Chinese people become more globalised they may stop asking for these things. I don't really expect poorer uneducated chinese people from the countryside to be able to just give up the trade.

Of course, it could be wildly blown out of proportion too. The videos we see could be a handful of people practicing the worst kind of farming when the rest aren't nearly as cruel. I wouldn't put it past some animal rights groups to hire people to carry out barbaric acts just so they can trumpet on about it making themselves seem relevant. There's so much misinformation around these days that I won't make a conclusion based on one or two articles or videos.

DBB · 22-06-2016 04:50PM

wes wrote: »

There will always be some cruelty inherent to any method of slaughter. There is no way to avoid that, so if you eat meat you need to accept that.

I do accept that there is a deeply unpleasant side to all slaughter... But it doesn't have to be cruel. There's a difference. A good life, a quick and as pain-free as possible death. It's not much to ask.

The slaughter method will surely improve as China make economic progress.

I'm not sure how clear it is to you what's happening those dogs in China. They are clubbed on the head to stun them before skinning them alive. The aim is not to kill them, because they prefer the animal to be alive when skinned.
That, to me at least, is not slaughter. It is abject, wilful cruelty. If it was just about eating the meat, then slit the dog's throat/shoot it or whatever has to be done to effect a quick death with minimal pain. But what they do is the absolute definition of cruelty... Wilfully and knowingly skinning an animal alive.

As for Human Rights, I agree a long way to go, and that is where people should focus there effort imho, but that is separate to the claims in animal cruelty.

The rationales behind both are not far separated.

As a general rule I take animal right documentaries with a pinch of salt. I am sure most of deficiencies in the system of countries like China is due to the lack of more modern methods of slaughter, as opposed stuff being done for the sake of cruelty, and that specific instances of deliberate cruelty are more likely the exception and not the norm.

Were it any other country, I might be prepared to accept your point. But as I've pointed out... Human welfare is a scant consideration in that country, which is extremely well documented. Therefore, one could not expect animals to even get a look-in.
And on the animal rights documentaries, let me clarify on thing. None of the documentaries I watched were animal rights programs. They were educational news programs which didn't strike me as having an agenda. I'm an animal lover, and have devoted my life to animal welfare... But I'm as far from an animal rights head as you could get. It would not take much for the world to bring China up to speed on animal welfare... McDonald's brought much of America and the Western world into line by simply introducing minimum standards of welfare in the abattoirs that process their meat. Sanctions against abattoirs that broke the rules. Don't get me wrong, they're still abattoirs, but the standards of animal welfare are infinitely higher in those abattoirs than they used to be before the intervention.

I don't think you can really lump both of those things in together

If Mahatma Gandhi can do it, so can I!

...
"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way it's animals are treated".

ScumLord · 22-06-2016 05:04PM

DBB wrote: »

I'm not sure how clear it is to you what's happening those dogs in China. They are clubbed on the head to stun them before skinning them alive. The aim is not to kill them, because they prefer the animal to be alive when skinned.

What would the point of that be though? It's claims like this that make me doubt the whole thing to be honest. Unless they're skinning dogs just to be cruel bastards why would they prefer the dog to be alive during skinning? Does it make it easier to remove the skin?

And on the animal rights documentaries, let me clarify on thing. None of the documentaries I watched were animal rights programs. They were educational news programs which didn't strike me as having an agenda.

Umm.. Just about everything you'll see on the TV or internet comes with an agenda, it might be as simple as wanting to make money so they'll make something shocking to get people hooked, or that the documentary maker comes in with an agenda and get's funding from groups that enforce that agenda. The easier media is to consume (IE: documentaries) the more corrupt the information gets as it's simplified to remain entertaining.

dr.fuzzenstein · 22-06-2016 06:43PM

ScumLord wrote: »

What would the point of that be though? It's claims like this that make me doubt the whole thing to be honest. Unless they're skinning dogs just to be cruel bastards why would they prefer the dog to be alive during skinning? Does it make it easier to remove the skin?

Just to address this point. I have seen the videos, I never want to see them again, they make me sick to my stomach. They are appalling and just fcuked in the head.
I am physically unable (I.e. I will puke) to find one and post it at this time. Nitpicking and scoring minor internet points against other posters goes right out the window. You simply sit back and say "if I can't see it, it doesn't exist". You may want to educate yourself on animal (and human) rights abuses in China, because sitting there in your ignorance, ignoring the issue and simply posting deliberately contrary messages to show off on de interwebz simply is going beyond even the usual AH game of playing the bollocks.
This is something people really should educate themselves on instead of spouting obnoxious sh*te here and that's not specifically directed at you, but in general.

22-06-2016 06:50PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Just to address this point. I have seen the videos, I never want to see them again, they make me sick to my stomach. They are appalling and just fcuked in the head.
I am physically unable (I.e. I will puke) to find one and post it at this time. Nitpicking and scoring minor internet points against other posters goes right out the window. You simply sit back and say "if I can't see it, it doesn't exist". You may want to educate yourself on animal (and human) rights abuses in China, because sitting there in your ignorance, ignoring the issue and simply posting deliberately contrary messages to show off on de interwebz simply is going beyond even the usual AH game of playing the bollocks.
This is something people really should educate themselves on instead of spouting obnoxious sh*te here and that's not specifically directed at you, but in general.

Even PETA - PETA! - is not suggesting that animals are routinely skinned alive.

At best, they say, animals are sedated but are not completely dead when skinned.

Anybody using an ounce of common sense will already know that it's stupid to attempt to skin a live animal will it writhes and bites. Leaving aside any humane concerns, it's going to damage a pelt and injure the handler.

As someone else said, it actually damages the animal rights cause (a very valuable cause to humanity), to exaggerate this stuff.

ScumLord · 22-06-2016 07:01PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Just to address this point. I have seen the videos, I never want to see them again, they make me sick to my stomach. They are appalling and just fcuked in the head.

I didn't watch the video at all. I don't want to see that ****. I'm not trying to score internet points, you seem to have gotten completely emotional about this and won't even entertain basic questions about the extent of this practice. That is in actual fact educating myself about the topic.

I completely understand this is a horrendous topic, but it's one that's being used to stir emotions and I think it's likely it's being blown out of proportions for shock value.

DBB · 22-06-2016 09:57PM

ScumLord wrote: »

What would the point of that be though? It's claims like this that make me doubt the whole thing to be honest. Unless they're skinning dogs just to be cruel bastards why would they prefer the dog to be alive during skinning? Does it make it easier to remove the skin?

As explained by the people who were doing the skinning, it makes for a better quality pelt.
A fair chunk of the pelt and skin is used in fur trimming in boots, coats, clothing etc, much of which is, according to those skinning the dogs, imported to Western Europe. The skin is dried and sold as... Wait for it... Dog chews... In Western Europe. This is all according to the Chinese people interviewed whilst skinning the dogs.
I too questioned the veracity of the above, so I wrote to the MEP who was, at that time, in charge of animal product importation to Europe. Actually, it was the Irish man, David Byrne. He confirmed it all, which prompted me to complain quite lot, and the cause was then taken up by another Irish MEP who got wind of it.

Umm.. Just about everything you'll see on the TV or internet comes with an agenda, it might be as simple as wanting to make money so they'll make something shocking to get people hooked, or that the documentary maker comes in with an agenda and get's funding from groups that enforce that agenda. The easier media is to consume (IE: documentaries) the more corrupt the information gets as it's simplified to remain entertaining.

Ah, you know, I hope I'm tuned in enough, and working long enough in the area, to spot an ARAN or PETA "cause" from a thousand paces. These were not driven by any of the usual suspects.. They were rather quiet, considered documentaries really. No big talk overs, no fanfares. I suppose they let the pictures and the people involved do the talking.

To the poster who said that the dogs are stunned enough... I've seen enough footage now, of different markets in China and of different dogs, and I've applied my animal behaviour training with as clinical an eye as possible, and I saw plenty of dogs reacting to the pain of the knife going in... They'd hold onto the tail and insert the knife right at the base of the tail, and off they'd go, the dog writhing and gasping but incapable of a full physical act of aggression due to the bop to the head.

dr.fuzzenstein · 22-06-2016 10:40PM

Some people just don't want to know. They will refuse to watch the videos, anyone who makes a documentary about it is a PETA nutter with an agenda and people who actually care are written off as do gooders and hand wringers. Anything to keep ignoring the issue.

_Brian · 23-06-2016 10:08AM

I don't think people support what is being shown in the videos.

But, just as some will believe that this is common and happens on every street corner on China, some believe that these are isolated instances. Not that any instances of animal cruelty is acceptable but I think it's important to have perspective too.

It's not to everybody's taste that chickens, ducks and pigs are slaughtered in a marketplace after being chosen by the customer. But that doesn't mean it's wrong. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's wrong.

Things are different on other countries, just because we don't like them doesn't mean they are wrong. We shouldn't confuse things we don't like with intentional cruelty and mistreatment. Slaughtering dogs and cats and eating their meat isn't wrong, mistreating the animals is always wrong.

Caoimhgh1n · 23-06-2016 10:35AM

You can't humanly kill any animal... Killing is killing, you can't justify it by turning their bodies into a "product" or "meat".

_Brian · 23-06-2016 10:40AM

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

You can't humanly kill any animal... Killing is killing, you can't justify it by turning their bodies into a "product" or "meat".

That's just opinion and perspective, I respect your position but disagree completly.

Caoimhgh1n · 23-06-2016 10:44AM

_Brian wrote: »

That's just opinion and perspective, I respect your position but disagree completly.

How can you humanly kill an animal?

Kiwi in IE · 23-06-2016 10:47AM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Perhaps before cooking but dogs are regularly skinned alive in China for the fur trade. It's well documented.

Be warned, the following video is quite disturbing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVRKSY0DATI

That video made me cry and I don't really cry easily.

Dogmeat Festival gets underway in China

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