Season 6 Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" - "Book readers"

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 21-06-2016 05:15PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

This makes no sense? Were they building the trenches in front of the enemy, did the Bolton's put up all the flayed men in front of the Starks?
One of the armies was going to have to have marched a bjt to meet the other.
(One of those armies additionally having a leader thats incredible at night fighting).
I don't mind much because its a nice touch but its weird to pay attention to one detail like using the markers for wind/distance but ignore a much bigger issue.

I assume the plan was that the archers and everyone else apart from the vanguard (is that the right word? The people who charge first) was protected from an encirclement. But the Stark forces charged when they shouldn't have, the archers couldn't fire without hitting their own men so they charge, and everyone is out of range of being protected by the trenches. Meanwhile Ramsey fires away with the archers and builds up the wall of bodies to block off that side.

Sleepy · 21-06-2016 05:25PM

Bambi wrote: »

She knew Jonno was going to f**k it up royally with a classic case of Neditis so she used him to draw all of the bolton army into a melee to let the cavalry make **** of them.

If the cavalry had already showed up ramsey would have stayed in winterfell

Lao Tse would have approved

I think this is giving Sansa far too much credit. She knew Jon and Ramsey sure, but if we are to credit that Thormund didn't understand the concept of a pincer movement, I think it's a bit much to have a teenager who spent her days at embroidery suddenly be a military general.

Daith wrote: »

You know in this very same episode we had this exchange

Dany: There's never been a queen of the Iron Islands before
Yara: there's never been a queen on the Iron Throne of Westeros before

but we have some mythical law of the land that you keep talking about that means Sansa can't possibly be the Queen of the North

Dany has dragons, Yara has a fleet. Both are proven leaders. Sansa's a pretty face from a noble house.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Follow your own advice :pac:.

It was a joke at Zillah throwing that dig at me

You can't have it both ways. She retook Winterfell and the Lords of the North give their fealty to Winterfell. She can put whoever she likes in charge of the Karhold and House Umber (in fact according to the books, the Karstarks were divided anyway; Alys Karstark anyone?). Practically speaking if Sansa decides she's ruling the north, who exactly is going to stand in her way? And how?

It's Tomato btw . Explanations have been put forward for why the heavy cavalry was held back. Cogent reasons explained partially by your quote above.

It's not Littlefinger's army. He had to sweet talk Sweetrobin into taking it north, don't you remember?

The Lords of the North gave their fealty to Winterfell, and grudgingly so in the case of the Boltons and latterly the Karstarks. In exactly the same way that Jaime recently explained to the Frey's that having Riverun doesn't give them rule of the Riverlands, the Starks holding Winterfell doesn't give them rule of the North.

Fair enough it's Sweetrobin's army. He's Littlefinger's puppet and in order for Sansa to claim that army she needs to wrestle the strings away from Westeros's ultimate manipulator. It's a big ask.

Zillah wrote: »

The only legitimacy that conquest gives you is wrested from the dead hands of all those who don't kneel. There is no law or custom by which Robert can betray his oath to his king and usurp him. He got away with it because he had enough power to do so, that's it. There are no laws or customs governing this; this isn't a pair of local lords squabbling over a field.

But she does have power over them. She's taken Winterfell, destroyed the Boltons, has some forces of her own, and an alliance with the biggest regional power. Trust him or not, Littlefinger has thrown his lot in with Sansa. He didn't ride to war against the Boltons to put the Starks back into Winterfell only for some half-broken northern houses to scupper the plans.

Not that all of that matters, anyway: by taking Winterfell and killing Ramsay they've shifted the power base in the North. They'll bend the knee - many will be happy to see the Starks back in power and the Boltons gone. That's my wager.

I suspect that's how it'll play out in the show alright, they'll conveniently gloss over the fact that Sansa has next to no power at all. She has an alliance with a man she knows to be treacherous, her half-brother/cousin, Brienne and whatever's left of the army Jon and Davos put together for her. Sure, it's probably enough to hold Winterfell in the short-term and even to re-build a power base from if Littlefinger allows it.

With winter coming south none of it's likely to matter. GRRM commented that the series would have a bittersweet ending and I think this may be part of it: there'll never be a Stark in Winterfell again.

hardCopy · 21-06-2016 05:50PM

Loved that episode.

Sansa was probably my least favourite book character but she really became a boss in this episode.

I imagine Jon will be wondering "why didn't you tell me you had a thousand knights of the vale hiding in the woods"?

Jon smashing Ramsay's head in was exactly the ending I needed, his dogs tearing his face off was super-extra-bonus-points.

Poor Wun Wun. Jon's rash reaction to Rickon cost thousands of Wildling lives, listen to your advisors, like Dany did.

I was expecting the whole episode to be at Winterfell so an opening battle at Meerreen was a great surprise.

RDM_83 again · 21-06-2016 06:40PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

RDM_83 again wrote: »

This makes no sense? Were they building the trenches in front of the enemy, did the Bolton's put up all the flayed men in front of the Starks?
One of the armies was going to have to have marched a bjt to meet the other.
(One of those armies additionally having a leader thats incredible at night fighting).
I don't mind much because its a nice touch but its weird to pay attention to one detail like using the markers for wind/distance but ignore a much bigger issue.

The trenches were on either side of their position to prevent an encirclement. Tormund got it eventually

Pointless when they charged, but that was the idea. Stand fast and let the Boltons come at them.

Oh right so the thinking is that it didn't matter that the Bolton's knew about the trenches and that the b@stard bolton would attack anyway?
It doesn't seem like a great plan even if it works.
Facing a bigger army wouldn't they have been boxed if they did attack and slowly ground down by their numbers. Like they aren't on a hill or having any forward facing defenses

Now I want to play total war!

PS this isn't a big criticism of the show writing its excusable in a way the cliche last second completely unknown calavary wasn't.

Pps If Sansa knew little finger was couple of miles away, which is the reason some are putting forwards why she didn't mention it too John, what's the explanation for that, Ravens only go to keeps, Did he teleport and tell her?

CMOTDibbler · 21-06-2016 06:45PM

Sleepy wrote: »

I think this is giving Sansa far too much credit. She knew Jon and Ramsey sure, but if we are to credit that Thormund didn't understand the concept of a pincer movement, I think it's a bit much to have a teenager who spent her days at embroidery suddenly be a military general.

It's very devious of her alright if it's true. I'm inclined towards believing it based on the exchange about trust in the episode 10 trailer. We'll wait and see.

Sleepy wrote: »

It was a joke at Zillah throwing that dig at me

I know. Hence the pac emoticon

Sleepy wrote: »

The Lords of the North gave their fealty to Winterfell, and grudgingly so in the case of the Boltons and latterly the Karstarks. In exactly the same way that Jaime recently explained to the Frey's that having Riverun doesn't give them rule of the Riverlands, the Starks holding Winterfell doesn't give them rule of the North.

You're actually proving my point. The Freys never ruled the Riverlands, he's pointing out that the river Lords will still be Tully loyalists. The same as the northern Lords are Stark loyalists. This loyalty wasn't bought at the point of a sword but over centuries of service in both directions. The Manderlys being given lands after fleeing the south is a case in point. That sort of loyalty doesn't go away easily and it was only disaffected Stark bannermen who supported the Boltons. Karstarks because of Robb's rough justice (although in the books the main reason was for control of the Karhold) and the Umbers 'just because'.

Sleepy wrote: »

Fair enough it's Sweetrobin's army. He's Littlefinger's puppet and in order for Sansa to claim that army she needs to wrestle the strings away from Westeros's ultimate manipulator. It's a big ask.

He's a fickle puppet at best. Littlefinger was on a knife edge with Bronze Yohn there and just managed to swing it. What if Sansa tells Sweetrobin who really killed his mummy?

CMOTDibbler · 21-06-2016 06:52PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Oh right so the thinking is that it didn't matter that the Bolton's knew about the trenches and that the b@stard bolton would attack anyway?
It doesn't seem like a great plan even if it works.
Facing a bigger army wouldn't they have been boxed if they did attack and slowly ground down by their numbers. Like they aren't on a hill or having any forward facing defenses

How did the Boltons know about the trenches? Never saw that demonstrated. Ramsay just did what he does best and tried to provoke Jon into attacking first. Jon thought he'd provoked Ramsay, but he knew nothing

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Pps If Sansa knew little finger was couple of miles away, which is the reason some are putting forwards why she didn't mention it too John, what's the explanation for that, Ravens only go to keeps, Did he teleport and tell her?

The thinking is that she held back the knowledge from Jon because he would have put them in the field and frightened Ramsay back behind the walls of Winterfell. Instead she waited until Ramsay had committed all his forces.

rawn · 21-06-2016 06:56PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

How did the Boltons know about the trenches? Never saw that demonstrated. Ramsay just did what he does best and tried to provoke Jon into attacking first. Jon thought he'd provoked Ramsay, but he knew nothing

Ramsey knew that he would win by strength of numbers, and he knew Jon knew that too. So he knew Jon would plan something so therefore Ramsey used to Rickon to put them at a disadvantage of whatever their plans may be.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 21-06-2016 06:58PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

How did the Boltons know about the trenches? Never saw that demonstrated.

In fairness, the list of 'things we can infer happened even if they're not shown on screen' would probably include the Boltons noticing dozens of men digging big trenches within eye sight of the castle

CMOTDibbler · 21-06-2016 07:00PM

Bodie Hollow Fluid wrote: »

In fairness, the list of 'things we can infer happened even if they're not shown on screen' would probably include the Boltons noticing dozens of men digging big trenches within eye sight of the castle

Night vision goggles ftw

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 21-06-2016 07:01PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Pps If Sansa knew little finger was couple of miles away, which is the reason some are putting forwards why she didn't mention it too John, what's the explanation for that, Ravens only go to keeps, Did he teleport and tell her?

He could have sent a rider I guess. Not sure how believable it is that said rider could just arrive and deliver a message to Sansa without Jon or Davos or someone wanting to know about it though. Not to mind that she'd be crazy to believe him. But anyway lookit it all worked out in the end.

21-06-2016 07:40PM

I watched the episode again last night and started to write a post afterwards, got to finish it there now for anyone who cares to read. It's long, but what I do with my time off and while my car is on the brink is mine to do with as I please :pac:

After a second watch, I'm even more impressed at what this one episode of television achieved and the amount of detail in some of the shots (everyone see the headless horseman mid-battle?). The claims that something just feels off at times this season are not unfounded, but when the show gets it right, they still get it so right. Some absolutely stunning cinematography, and the score in this episode overall stood out and complimented the visuals so well in some of the episodes most beautiful shots...

- The music as the dragons were in full flight above the bay in Meereen and the camera POV looking down on all three over the ships below, Dany leading their charge on Drogon, the extreme wide-shot of all three dragons raining fire down on the one ship, there were some very cinematic images in there. Of course it would be nice for this battle to get the extended Winterfell treatment, but in a ten hour season of television, what they did was excellent and the action in Meereen did see a culmination of most of the points we've watched (sometimes endured) there this season...

Dro-gone, now he's back in Meereen and Dany has full control of him. Tyrion got to look like Tyrion again as he dealt with the Masters. This was after he got to watch Rhaegal and Viserion, who he unchained in his last great scene earlier in the season, wreak havoc out on the bay. Grey Worm finally got to do what he wanted to do to the Masters after Tyrion's season-long "Shut up, betray your oppressed history and just do it my way" approach. The Dothraki who reappeared again at the end of last season and dominated a fair bit of Dany's (and our own) time this season showed that they have their bags packed and are ready to board for Westeros. "Where is the bar? Give us a shout when the gate opens". Hopefully we see progress on all of these next week in a Westerly direction, and not another setback that will confine Dany to Meereen for the bulk of next season.

- The music as Davos realised Shireen's fate by her pyre, and the close-up of his face bearing vengeful determination looking back towards the camp where Melissandre was. Then the switch to a long shot with Davos silhouetted by the fiery sunrise in the background. This was done with the intention to look and sound cinematic no matter what else, but the fire in the background definitely reminded me that Davos should tread lightly when it comes to dealing with Melissandre and her Red God.

She already saw to the end of Maester Cressen in season two when he came at her. Mel looks a bit tired at the moment, but her discourse with Jon in this episode shows that she is determined and has a plan as opposed to when she first appeared at Castle Black earlier this season. She believes she is now there to serve Jon and bring him back if needs be. Until she tries to bring Jon back again and fails to do so, she believes the Red God has a purpose for her and therefore her life has purpose too. Had Davos gotten to her the night she freaked us out with her true appearance and when her faith was at its lowest, she probably would have let him kill her if that was his wish. Now though, with a renewed faith and an apparent Prince that was Promised to guide, Davos could be in danger if he comes at her seeking blood.

- On the Winterfell battlefield, that sweeping shot from Jon's side right around the back to reveal the oncoming Bolton cavalry he faced. As they get closer to each other, the music builds and the transition of shots quickens until the cavalry are almost upon him. Then there's a pause on the music and a lingering shot on Jon where he looks resigned to the thought that he's about to return to the void once again, that whole run was so effective. It reminded me of Aragorn and LOTR, but a little less directly than the Knights of the Vale's entrance.

- Similar with late in the battle at the Northern army's lowest point, when Jon makes his 'rebirth' to the surface from the mound of dead/dying bodies surrounding him. He looks around to see the carnage, his men beat, Tormund getting foreheaded to apparent death by SmallJon Umber, Davos disillusioned. The shots for this and again the musical theme accompanying them were so effective in portraying the feeling that all hope was lost, it laid the groundwork perfectly for the sounding of the horns for the oncoming Knights of the Vale.

These epic/poignant orchestra hits and pauses and camera shots weren't overdone though, as there can be a danger of doing in this genre. Often during the battle, the music was then suddenly absent to emphasise the sound of hundreds dying slowly and painfully, as we got many quick close-ups of downed men lying with their insides in their hands. There was long tracking shots following Jon and others around the battle. There was the methods used to very effectively (a little too effectively!) convey the panic in the crushing scene. All of these added up to enrich the experience of the battle, one which I felt I was in the middle of as a viewer at times. I always felt I knew the placement very well and it came across as realistic. Even the transitions to Ramsay watching from the hill. I got a sense that all of this was happening in front of him, rather than just edited shots of Iwan Rheon sitting on a horse staring out at an empty field in Banbridge.

A couple of the above moments can be considered cliché, especially the Riders of RoVale last minute save, but not all clichés are a bad thing in every situation if done right. Your opinion may differ, but where some might get hung up on clichés I don't see them as that in this episode. I see them as hit-points that a battle and episode of this magnitude need to have. No, GoT did not exactly reinvent these hit-points or the battle wheel in this episode, but what it attempted to do it pulled off very well. Had it not hit its landing, maybe these would have bothered me as clichés, but the show used battles of history and screen to make one unique battle of its own, rather than rip them off poorly to make a series of big action shots just stitched together.

I'm throwing praise on this episode obviously, but that's not to say that there are things that might have made me or others think about another reality for a moment - Why did Jon fall into Ramsay's trap so easily despite Sansa passionately warning him? Also, why didn't they give Wun Wun a weapon?

These are not plot-holes, just 'whys? and what ifs?' For Jon, it's obvious at this stage that his character has flaws as most of the good fictional ones do, especially in a highly emotional and personal situation. It was strongly hinted at through his conversation with Sansa that Jon could fall for one of Ramsay's traps. He also made it clear in this scene that he wasn't willing to accept the fact that Rickon was doomed. Turns out Ramsay amalgamated the two and used Rickon as the trap. That's all fine with me. I'd rather that than the the opposite of Jon just sitting watching motionless on his horse as Rickon desperately runs for his life, helpless, and takes an arrow anyway. With comments already out there such as "How can the Karstarks and Umbers just watch Ramsay murder a Stark boy and carry on?", I imagine there would be many more comments if Jon just sat there and didn't attempt to help Rickon.

For Wun Wun and a weapon, we saw he and his kin (Mag The Mighty) with one as they attacked the Wall back in season four. It was a giant bow and arrow and it was used in an impressive tracking shot to hit a NW guard on top of the wall and knock him all the way to the Castle Black courtyard below. It was necessary for the scene at the time as the wildling options were extremely limited for attacking the 700 foot high Wall. It was used to advance the plot. Here though, it wasn't necessary to advance the plot. Wun Wun needed to help Jon's army disrupt the phalanx and keep it at bay until the Vale showed up. More importantly though, WW was needed to break the door as it became inevitable that Ramsey would retreat like the coward he was. The fact that WW managed to do all of this without a weapon makes him look devastating, even if it does invite the thought of 'Imagine what he'd be like with weapons/armour'. Those things although nice, are only necessary for his survival and not to advance the plot. This episode of this show demanded a known death or two, and WW had served his time on the show. Plus, I imagine the drain on the CGI budget for him was too much, and they'll need plenty of cash for future battles with the Night King and his army.

I liked Wun Wun the friendly-when-you-get-to-know-him giant. At least he got a heroic send off. Now that I think about it, it was pretty much the same manner in which Mag the Mighty went out at the Wall. Mag breached the gate as a heroic act, and then met his demise courtesy of Grenn and a few more of the defiant NW in the tunnel. On first viewing of BotB, I realised that Hodor and Wun Wun had an interesting parallel in their heroic deaths and it was a nice touch. Now though, taking Mag the Mighty's last stand into account, is the show being clever or lazy? Hmm, at the least, can we please get these larger than life people to a secluded location away from the certainty that they'll meet their demise by having to hold or break down some f**king door?? :pac:

Ok, that'll do for now. I think that it was a highly impressive episode of television and if you were a fan of it a second viewing is recommended.

CMOTDibbler · 21-06-2016 08:18PM

stankratz wrote: »

Ok, that'll do for now. I think that it was a highly impressive episode of television and if you were a fan of it a second viewing is recommended.

Well written, enjoyed that.

And definitely a second viewing recommended. I'm contemplating a third.

tommy2bad · 21-06-2016 08:43PM

Avoided all the threads and you tube stuff until I watch the episode so I'm late to the party. Anyway here goes.

Wow that episode rocked. It was as close to perfect as the show has come in the last two seasons. The staging of the first Mereen battle all fire and sand contrasted with the staging of the main event all cold wet and grimm, the cinematography of both using the colour filters to switch gears as the battles unfolded, the script giving enough information to tell the story without slowing down the action, it was all just right.
That's not to say it was perfect though, just close to it. Again I got the impression of list items being ticked off. A lack of imaginative narration, it all ran like clockwork a little too much. The production values and pacing of the episode held it together though so can't complain too much.

I get the impression Sansa is now playing the game whole heartedly and not just for the North. She basicaly fuc*ed Jon and Rickon and Ramsey to her own advantage. She could have told Jon that the vale army was a possibility, he asked her directly, instead she held that back. Possibly because she knew Jon would waste whatever advantage they gave him. Though I suspect she was being tactical about her best options rather than the Starks best options.
As it ended, she has the best claim to Winterfell now Rickon is gone, Bran missing and Jon without an army to oppose the vales. She has taken authority both when she effectively 'chose violence' and cut off Jon and Ramsey's banter before the battle and in executing Ramsey at the end. Having gone from naive, to pawn, to abused, Sansa is now in the game to win. She wants power to keep herself safe which brings us round to Dannie.
Dannie expresses the urge to burn the whole thing to the ground and just be done with it, however she is convinced by Tyrion to instead make a good example of the success of her city without masters and let that inspire the change she tried to bring by force. Dannie wants power to affect change.
The city without masters line struck me as a theme in this episode, Dannie, Davos and Sansa all mention the idea of not following leaders. Dannie now has ships, a job done in Mereen and 3 dragons. Far more successful a sojourn in the east than poor Arya.

Poor old Yara, just made a deal to gain a kingdom but with it's only viable industry now illegal. I guess shipbuilding or fishing might have a future.

Severard · 21-06-2016 09:05PM

Really good episode, it's been building up for quite a while now.

One thing however that didn't seem to fit was when Ramsay was talking to Sansa and Jon. How did Ramsay only have 6,000 men? It was mentioned more than once that the Boltons alone have 5,000 yet in season 3 when the Karstarks had left Robb, he stated that with them gone it was almost half of his forces. At that time it was 15,000 - 20,000 soldiers. Even if it was the lower end at 15,000 for the Karstarks to make up almost half of that would be roughly 5,000. Where did all the rest of those men go? This also doesn't account for the Umbers as well. Could the Karstarks and Umbers really have only 1,000 men between them?

Icepick · 21-06-2016 09:56PM

Too much Hollywood, not enough GRRM

While the battle was entertaining, there were so many silly moments. Ramsay is apparently the best archer ever, but won't shoot Jon and instead lets the archers waste arrows. The same archers that he then uses to kill his cavalry, which was released despite having heavy infantry with pikes in addition to the archers.

Ave Sodalis · 21-06-2016 10:03PM

Icepick wrote:

While the battle was entertaining, there were so many silly moments. Ramsay is apparently the best archer ever, but won't shoot John and instead lets the archers waste arrows. The same archers that he then uses to kill his cavalry, which was released despite having heavy infantry with pikes in addition to the archers.

The point was to goad Jon into a charge. He succeeded.
Also, Ramsey could afford to lose people (or thought he could). He could sacrifice his men if it means killing more Stark men because he still heavily outnumbered them. He could afford it, the Stark side couldn't which is why Davos didn't allow their archers to fire.

Gbear · 21-06-2016 10:24PM

In some cases the writers have run roughshod over characters, plot or any other pesky details that might get in the way of their blockbuster moments.

The battle at Meereen is largely pointless. There's no army there. They're just shooting rocks at buildings. They could just leg it into the plains and wait for them to get bored or hit them when they try to disembark.

The Sons of the Harpy are around purely to be ludicrously overkilled - about 12 of them against 100,000 dothraki cavalry.

The entire premise is them doing the old surrender switcheroo and seeing the dragons blow up a couple of ships. Oh, and Grey Worm gets to do ninja things.
All of those things were cool. There was just **** all supporting them in the rest of the story.

Demanding that the dragons be slaughtered would be like attacking a city full of cruise missiles and then looking around puzzled when they use said cruise missiles to blow all your things up, even though the reason you wanted them destroyed was because they could blow all your things up.

The Dothraki weren't a factor. They can't swim.

A peristent thing I've noticed in the past couple of seasons is that something silly happens and then everyone predicts all the ways it'll be explained in the next episode, but it isn't explained, and it remains nonsense (the Arya plot this season was a good example, with a range of theories springing up to explain how getting disemboweled wasn't a problem for her).

This week we have the Sansa issue.
If Jon Snow absolutely ****s her out of it next time around for allowing him to walk into a trap, get all his men butchered and risk basically every loyal northerner so she could spring her trap then it'll account for some of her decision-making.
It would suggest a ham-fisted effort to "play the game" that worked out through blind luck, or else she doesn't care about anything in particular and is happy to sacrifice anyone to acheive her goals (what are they??).

I'm somewhat concerned that it won't really be explored and it was all just a load of bollocks to get a Rohan LOTR moment.
As it is, how the Arryns were able to smuggle a giant cavalry force through the Neck or Bolton-held Moat Cailin is anyone's guess. A single sentence that the Reeds helped, or they used ships, maybe from Manderly (they've name-dropped him before at least) would probably suffice, but they seldom seem to go that far.

Even if it is dealt with, the issue remains that Sansa is left without an army, for no particular reason, she's entirely beholden to Littlefinger, whom she must surely know is a monster, far more deadly than Ramsey, if not as cruel.

She'll have alienated whoever's left, including her last remaining relative that she knows is alive, who's also some sort of magic king/leader person and possibly the only remaining commander of men north of the Neck who isn't working for Littlefinger.

A triumph of visual artistry - a failure of storytelling.
I didn't sit down afterwards and pick through the show, after being completely blown away by it, just for the sake of curmudgeonry.
I was distracted the entire way through by the silliness. It took away from the brilliance of the CGI, how the battle was shot, the claustrophobia of the crush scene, etc.
Even at the fabled dog+Ramsey-eating scene, I found myself thinking,
"oh... well I guess it won't be the dogs seeing as there's no sign of them and the cages are all open. Oh... there they are. Hmpfh."

Dyr · 21-06-2016 11:39PM

The invisible army travelling at light speed and showing up out of the blue has been a recurring theme...apparently no one in westeros knows how to use scouts

21-06-2016 11:50PM

You do know that the battle of Waterloo was decided in the same manner...

An entire army was late to the fray and were able to decimate Napoleon's forces as he was set up for the forces in front of him

Hans Bricks · 22-06-2016 12:11AM

Do we really need to add filler of the Arryns clip clopping to the North just to placate perceived plotholes ? Perhaps they sailed North and approached Winterfell from the East ? Used the cover of wilderness and night marches on the last approach to the battlefield ? Help from the Manderleys/other houses ?

As for Meereen, I assume the Sons of Harpy were upending the entire city as well as outside the walls and the Dothraki cleaned up what remained inside the city along with the Unsullied once they trampled the guerillas having the stabathon at the gates.

Are we incapable of using inference to conclude these trivial questions ? I find I enjoy the series a lot more by not obsessing as to how LF "teleports" North, or that Sansa isn't yet a tactical, cunning genius with incredible foresight as to the consequences of her actions. "I'm just a stupid girl" after all.

Riddle101 · 22-06-2016 01:12AM

I wanted to see a proper one on one between Small Jon Umber and Tormund. I know they fought in the battle, but i'm talking about something like Jon Snow Vs Styr from Season 4, a proper fight. The fight they they had seemed a bit cramped to me, and they just punched each other. I realize that that was what they could probably only do given the state of the battle but still.

Also the one on one between Jon Snow and Ramsay was a bit silly. Ramsay with his bow and arrows against Jon with a shield blocking the arrows. A proper sword fight with the same ending would have been better. I just think it was a waste. That being said I think Ramsay met a fitting end.

I was also more sad about Rickon being killed than Wun Wun. I guess I can't get over the fact that Rickon was still just a kid, and to see him go like that. I understand why it happened but doesn't take away the feeling of losing such a young innocent life like that. And to think that people were speculating that Rickon being captured was all part of some master plan concocted by Rickon to take over Winterfell, and the Umbers were part of it.

Not too sure about the battle tactics either. Jon didn't look like a leader in this battle. They made him look like a joke of a commander just like they did with Stannis. None of the battle preparation paid off, and if you ask me, I can't see how Jon's army looked any better compared to Stannis', and that's saying something because the Boltons mopped the floor with Stannis. Ramsay looked like a way better commander than Jon did.

So next week will be the Season finale. Am I right in hearing that it will be longer than usual?

CMOTDibbler · 22-06-2016 08:16AM

Hans Bricks wrote: »

Do we really need to add filler of the Arryns clip clopping to the North just to placate perceived plotholes ? Perhaps they sailed North and approached Winterfell from the East ? Used the cover of wilderness and night marches on the last approach to the battlefield ? Help from the Manderleys/other houses ?

We don't even need inference for some of that. In episode 5, Littlefinger told Sansa that the Vale knights were camped at Moat Cailin.

PetKing · 22-06-2016 08:22AM

Riddle101 wrote:

So next week will be the Season finale. Am I right in hearing that it will be longer than usual?

Yes, it is. Have 68 mins in my head, but not certain.

CMOTDibbler · 22-06-2016 08:38AM

PetKing wrote: »

Yes, it is. Have 68 mins in my head, but not certain.

Close. 69 minutes, making it the longest episode in GoT history. Previous record of 66 minutes held by "The Children"; the last episode in Season 4. The longest episode this season so far was "Battle of the Bastards" which ran for 60 minutes.

Jelle1880 · 22-06-2016 11:00AM

Bambi wrote: »

The invisible army travelling at light speed and showing up out of the blue has been a recurring theme...apparently no one in westeros knows how to use scouts

Nothing to do with light speed.

Distances in Westeros seem to be vastly overstated by some fans, it's really are not that massive.

Don't forget, Sansa wrote that letter to Littlefinger when they were at Castle Black, by the time they arrived at Winterfell it would have given the Knights of the Vale time to arrive in my opinion. It also only seemed to be cavalry, so no infantry slowing them down.

conorhal · 22-06-2016 11:25AM

Gbear wrote: »

A triumph of visual artistry - a failure of storytelling.

Well articulated Gbear.

My other gripe with the episode was, yet another dose of heavy handed telegraphing. There were no real surprises in the episode, you knew what was coming thanks to a lot of heavy handed telegraphing and you know what to expect next week thanks to more of the same.
Will Cersi go all North Korean on national 'Not an Idle Threat Day' in episode10? Of course she will becaue Tyrion inexplicably had to mansplain largely unrelated facts about the plot to Dany for no other reason then to ensure nobody has forgotten that Kings Landing is laced with wildfire. Every plot development has been so laboured and underdeveloped lately that you just can't help but roll your eyes at how lazy the writing has become.

Tenger · 22-06-2016 11:34AM

Gbear wrote: »

.......As it is, how the Arryns were able to smuggle a giant cavalry force through the Neck or Bolton-held Moat Cailin is anyone's guess...............

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

.......In episode 5, Littlefinger told Sansa that the Vale knights were camped at Moat Cailin.

^^This

Scouts are great and all, but only when they get back and report. Every army except for the Arryns and the Martells has suffered in the 7 Kingdoms over the last couple of years so 'luxurys' like scouts might not be as readily available as commanders would like.

Avatar MIA · 22-06-2016 11:47AM

Tenger wrote: »

^^This

Scouts are great and all, but only when they get back and report. Every army except for the Arryns and the Martells has suffered in the 7 Kingdoms over the last couple of years so 'luxurys' like scouts might not be as readily available as commanders would like.

Or there were scouts and got captured. :cool:

Sleepy · 22-06-2016 11:55AM

conorhal wrote: »

W Of course she will becaue Tyrion inexplicably had to mansplain largely unrelated facts about the plot to Dany for no other reason then to ensure nobody has forgotten that Kings Landing is laced with wildfire.

While I agree with your point, please don't bring inflamatory bull**** like "mansplain" into the GoT forum.

Conall Cernach · 22-06-2016 12:32PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You do know that the battle of Waterloo was decided in the same manner...

An entire army was late to the fray and were able to decimate Napoleon's forces as he was set up for the forces in front of him

Not quite. Both Napoleon and Wellington knew the Prussians were coming. Wellington was able to set up defensively and let Napoleon attack him knowing that all he had to do was hang on and he barely managed it. Napoleon knew he had to defeat Wellington quickly resulting in the famous but futile cavalry charges of Marshall Ney.

Had Jon known that the Vale knights were coming then, perhaps, he would just have made a shield wall and waited for Ramsay to attack him. I'm not convinced that Sansa knew that Littlefinger was coming nor is there any direct evidence that Littlefinger deliberately left it late though it would fit in with his modus operandi.

Season 6 Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" - "Book readers"

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