Season 6 Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" - "Book readers"

Sleepy wrote: »

Under the laws of Westeros, only a king can legitimise a bastard or anull a marriage. Those born out of wedlock aren't allowed to claim their mother's names.

Which King? Robert was the last King that had a majority rule, Westeros is still stumbling through a civil war.

Sleepy wrote: »

Sansa can't simply decide that she's a Stark again. She's a Bolton. She has no authority to re-claim her maiden name or give it to any of her children.

Again under which laws? The North rebelled against the South, it lost its figure head, capitulated under the Boltons for fear of their agreement with the Lannisters. But now the Boltons are gone. The Lannisters are a long way off. And there are Starks in Winterfell again.

Were this a "normal" story chances are most of the houses would still stay out of another costly fight between the North and the South. But winter is coming. The South won't march North in the winter. The Starks could have years to bound with the other noble houses. And clever rulership and sharing of resources could mend a lot of bridges. Not to mention that we the readers/viewers know that the WW walkers are on their way. Again dealing with that issue would restore the Stark name.

Sleepy wrote: »

Power lies where people believe it lies but what power has Sansa? She's squandered her brother's army of wildlings and has the fealty of a handful of minor houses. Should the Karstarks decide that they should be Kings in the North, what can she do to stop them?

The Karstarks have also taken heavy losses in battle. And they backed the Boltons, which was fine when that was were the power lay, but that family has been wiped out now. Meaning the North will start wondering about the lords that sided with the guy that flayed quite a few and liked to fire arrow volleys into his own men.

And to the outside Sansa still has a wildling army, a few scattered minor houses, the populace of Winterfell and the surrounding lands, House Arryn onside, and she might even get some of the refugees from Riverrun. All with Winter on the way.

Sleepy wrote: »

Under the laws of Westeros, only a king can legitimise a bastard or anull a marriage. Those born out of wedlock aren't allowed to claim their mother's names.

Sansa can't simply decide that she's a Stark again. She's a Bolton. She has no authority to re-claim her maiden name or give it to any of her children.

Power lies where people believe it lies but what power has Sansa? She's squandered her brother's army of wildlings and has the fealty of a handful of minor houses. Should the Karstarks decide that they should be Kings in the North, what can she do to stop them?

A - The laws of Westeros are a collection of rules established by whoever happens to be in power. Some of the current laws were established when Aegon the Conqueror arrived in Westeros and burned to death with dragonfire everyone who didn't bow to him. Do you imagine that was legal according to the laws of the time? Oh and the last Targaryen king was slaughtered by Jaimie Lannister when the Baratheons decided to lead a war of rebellion. Also not legal.

B - She can call herself anything she likes, especially now that her husband is dead. Who is going to stop her? Her enemies? Boo hoo the Lannisters don't accept my name

C - Jon squandered his army of Wildlings, not Sansa.

D - Who would stop the Karstarks? Eh, maybe the Knights of the Vale that Littlefinger brought to ensure the Starks returned to power in the North??? The last army outside of Dorne that hasn't been whittled down by years of bloody war? The Karstarks likely lost the last of their forces when Littlefinger rode them down.

Honestly have you even watched the show? So many terrible points crammed into one post.

intheclouds wrote: »

She can be Queen in the North. Her army, and I include the Knights of the Vale in that - have just defeated the current Warden of the North so she's grand.

I think counting the Knights of the Vale as "Sansa's" army is a stretch...

Now, she might be able to play Robin better than his "uncle" Petyr but the laws of the land don't seem to change much under the different dynasties. Bastards were Snows, Stones, Waters and Rivers before Robert's Rebellion . For her to reclaim the name Stark and give it to her children goes against the laws and customs of the land. Sure, laws and customs can be changed, particularly during periods of unrest but that generally requires force and, since she has no forces of her own that are worth mentioning (it'd take a generation or two to re-build the numbers they lost in Robb's Rebellion, not to mention the couple of thousand thrown away in this battle). She's relying on her ability to outplay Baelish and to borrow her cousin's armies until then.

Zillah wrote: »

A - The laws of Westeros are a collection of rules established by whoever happens to be in power. Some of the current laws were established when Aegon the Conqueror arrived in Westeros and burned to death with dragonfire everyone who didn't bow to him. Do you imagine that was legal according to the laws of the time? Oh and the last Targaryen king was slaughtered by Jaimie Lannister when the Baratheons decided to lead a war of rebellion. Also not legal.

Reign by right of conquest is established as having legitimacy in this world. Jaime (not Jaimie, do you even watch the show? ) is held in contempt by most of the population of Westeros for his actions and is only still alive because of his family's power.

B - She can call herself anything she likes, especially now that her husband is dead. Who is going to stop her? Her enemies? Boo hoo the Lannisters don't accept my name /

True, she can call herself whatever she likes. None of the other Northern houses are going to swear her fealty when she has no power over them.

C - Jon squandered his army of Wildlings, not Sansa.

Potato/Potatoe - Jon was an idiot to ride out after Rickon, Sansa was an even bigger idiot to not inform him that they had a heavy cavalry coming to their aid.

D - Who would stop the Karstarks? Eh, maybe the Knights of the Vale that Littlefinger brought to ensure the Starks returned to power in the North??? The last army outside of Dorne that hasn't been whittled down by years of bloody war? The Karstarks likely lost the last of their forces when Littlefinger rode them down.

Oh, you mean Littlefinger's army? Perhaps Sansa can wrest control of them from him through superior manipulation of Robin Arryn. Perhaps not.

She can always marry Petyr or Robin to tie the houses together, but with her being female, that would still be the end of the Starks: House Arryn or House Baelish would rule Winterfell.

Honestly have you even watched the show? So many terrible points crammed into one post.

Play the ball.

Bambi wrote: »

She knew Jonno was going to f**k it up royally with a classic case of Neditis so she used him to draw all of the bolton army into a melee to let the cavalry could make **** of them.

If the cavalry had already showed up ramsey would have stayed in winterfell

Lao Tse would have approved

Exactly!

Sansa: Rickon is basically dead and don't fall into Ramsey's trap
Jon: Rickon is dead and now I'm going to fall into Ramsey's trap.

Sleepy wrote: »

Reign by right of conquest is established as having legitimacy in this world. Jaime (not Jaimie, do you even watch the show? ) is held in contempt by most of the population of Westeros for his actions and is only still alive because of his family's power.

Follow your own advice :pac:.

Sleepy wrote: »

True, she can call herself whatever she likes. None of the other Northern houses are going to swear her fealty when she has no power over them.

You can't have it both ways. She retook Winterfell and the Lords of the North give their fealty to Winterfell. She can put whoever she likes in charge of the Karhold and House Umber (in fact according to the books, the Karstarks were divided anyway; Alys Karstark anyone?). Practically speaking if Sansa decides she's ruling the north, who exactly is going to stand in her way? And how?

Sleepy wrote: »

Potato/Potatoe - Jon was an idiot to ride out after Rickon, Sansa was an even bigger idiot to not inform him that they had a heavy cavalry coming to their aid.

It's Tomato btw . Explanations have been put forward for why the heavy cavalry was held back. Cogent reasons explained partially by your quote above.

Sleepy wrote: »

Oh, you mean Littlefinger's army? Perhaps Sansa can wrest control of them from him through superior manipulation of Robin Arryn. Perhaps not.

It's not Littlefinger's army. He had to sweet talk Sweetrobin into taking it north, don't you remember?

intheclouds wrote: »

The dogs were in their cages, gates latched.

Jon Snow et all tied Ramsay to a chair and put him in the kennels.

The kennel master is sent in to quietly shush the dogs and undo each latch. Maybe throw a tiny morsel to the back of each cage to occupy each dog while he is unlatching the gate.

He leaves, Ramsay is unconscious, the dogs are not that interested in him because he is silent and no smell of fear etc...

Sansa comes along, he wakes up, they start talking, the dogs become interested because there is talking, they come forward, they smell Ramsays fear, they eat him.

It seems totally plausible to me.

Add in Mr Burns' special suit when he was punching Santa's Little Helper and you've pretty much got a watertight & risk-free way of getting Ramsay in there and opening all the cells. :pac:

Sleepy wrote: »

Reign by right of conquest is established as having legitimacy in this world. Jaime is held in contempt by most of the population of Westeros for his actions and is only still alive because of his family's power.

The only legitimacy that conquest gives you is wrested from the dead hands of all those who don't kneel. There is no law or custom by which Robert can betray his oath to his king and usurp him. He got away with it because he had enough power to do so, that's it. There are no laws or customs governing this; this isn't a pair of local lords squabbling over a field.

True, she can call herself whatever she likes. None of the other Northern houses are going to swear her fealty when she has no power over them.

But she does have power over them. She's taken Winterfell, destroyed the Boltons, has some forces of her own, and an alliance with the biggest regional power. Trust him or not, Littlefinger has thrown his lot in with Sansa. He didn't ride to war against the Boltons to put the Starks back into Winterfell only for some half-broken northern houses to scupper the plans.

Not that all of that matters, anyway: by taking Winterfell and killing Ramsay they've shifted the power base in the North. They'll bend the knee - many will be happy to see the Starks back in power and the Boltons gone. That's my wager.

(not Jaimie, do you even watch the show? )

...my finger slipped...

Daith wrote: »

I loved that the burning flayed men were actually distance markers. Plus you could tell which way the wind was blowing based on the flames. Clever Bastard.

Literally

Daith wrote: »

Exactly!

Sansa: Rickon is basically dead and don't fall into Ramsey's trap
Jon: Rickon is dead and now I'm going to fall into Ramsey's trap.

Yup, but Jon riding to save Rickon was falling into Ramsay's trap- he knew he was fncked and in the range of arrows when Rickon got struck and figured "in for a penny, in for a pound" so charged instead of retreating

Jon should have listened to Sansa and accepted that Rickon is dead- but Ramsay knew he'd try save him

Bodie Hollow Fluid wrote: »

"He won't be able to attack us from both sides at once"

"Good"

*get decimated and attacked from both sides at once*

Daith wrote: »

Yeah. Didn't Jon say they had built trenches or something?

I was halfway expecting the Vale army to run into the trenches with Jon silently shouting "Noooooo"

They did have trenches built, but this was on the assumption the Bolton's have to come to them which went flying out the window when Jon charged and their plans went to sh!t..

wp_rathead wrote: »

The Stark way is "They who carry the sentence must swing the sword"
Sansa feeding someone alive to dogs is not the Stark way

No offense but since everyone is being so pedantic about this episode.....
The Stark way is the old way
"He who passes the sentence must swing the sword"....
Sansa is neither a "he" nor a "Stark".

Ozzy man's view:

RDM_83 again wrote: »

This makes no sense? Were they building the trenches in front of the enemy, did the Bolton's put up all the flayed men in front of the Starks?
One of the armies was going to have to have marched a bjt to meet the other.
(One of those armies additionally having a leader thats incredible at night fighting).
I don't mind much because its a nice touch but its weird to pay attention to one detail like using the markers for wind/distance but ignore a much bigger issue.

The trenches were on either side of their position to prevent an encirclement. Tormund got it eventually

Pointless when they charged, but that was the idea. Stand fast and let the Boltons come at them.