British Labour MP shot near Leeds (mod warning in first post)

Stig Inge · 17-06-2016 12:50AM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

So it's points scoring when it's against your view but just telling the truth when a person agrees with your view.

I didn't state my view at all.

RayM · 17-06-2016 12:52AM

Apparently Mair was a long-time supporter of the National Alliance (an American Neo-Nazi organisation).

Stigura · 17-06-2016 01:02AM

Okay. Anybody care to pick the bones out of this one?

Much has been made of the attacker uttering " Britain First ", was it?

Then, I'm sure, I've read where this has been debunked and people have been deleting their Twitter posts, referring to it.

Now, I've just seen the " Daily Mirror " site, where I viewed what was posted as this blokes 'Only Filmed appearance' ~ or something similar ~ where some random bloke says he was close by and heard the assailant repeatedly say " Britain First ".

Boosh! There we have it. Mirror has come up with an eye and ear witness confirming that. In his, somehow, one and only interview.

I also heard / read ~somewhere along the line ~ how the Jo had some muslim women with her. Some sort of co workers. They were saying words to the effect of; " Oh, no, Jo! ", as Jo lay on the floor. That must have been reported by some third party. Our man in the mirror?

I can only, distinctly, remember that I read reportage from the Daily Mirror and the Independent UK. Certainly glanced at other sites / reports. Why it's all got a bit confusing.

But, my core questions are: WTF is with this mirror guy giving this one off interview; " Britain First! Britain First! Britain First! ". Where's he gone? Who was he? Why can't he repeat it to anyone else?

What's happened to these " Muslim women " who were ~ it seems ~ right there, as Jo went down. What did They hear? Why has no one dug them up and stuck a camera / mike in their faces?

This shcit's just weird!

* And, for the record?

No political agenda here.

No 'Conspiracy' ideas.

Did actually shed a tear, when I heard the poor woman didn't make it. So fcuking brutal and random.

Any snide, responses will be ignored. I'm not here to play games with vast and probing intellects. Just asking Thankyou.

12Phase · 17-06-2016 01:08AM

BBC has an eye witness report of the attacker saying "Britain First". He's been in their reports and the video is on their website.
I don't think the guy has any reason to make that up to be perfectly honest.

The conspiracy theories on this thread are just way too soon and frankly quite disturbing. A woman has been brutally murdered by a psychopath. The reports are the he was known to be mentally unstable and had a history of supporting very right wing organisations.

skywanderer · 17-06-2016 01:17AM

RIP to the woman, this entire thing by coincidence has several similarities to the Anna Lindh Murder in Sweden, where a Liberal Socialist was murdered prior to Sweden's referendum to join the Euro.

RayM · 17-06-2016 01:28AM

Stigura wrote: »

But, my core questions are: WTF is with this mirror guy giving this one off interview; " Britain First! Britain First! Britain First! ". Where's he gone? Who was he? Why can't he repeat it to anyone else?

I saw a witness on BBC News making the 'Britain First' allegation earlier. He said he definitely heard Mair shouting 'Britain First'. The Guardian has quoted two witnesses (one of whom may have been the aforementioned BBC interviewee) claiming that he was shouting 'Britain First':

Graeme Howard, 38, who lives in nearby Bond Street, said the attacker shouted “Britain first”, adding: “I heard the shot and I ran outside and saw some ladies from the cafe running out with towels. There was loads of screaming and shouting and the police officers showed up. He was shouting ‘Britain first’ when he was doing it and being arrested.”

Another witness, Clarke Rothwell, also told the BBC that Cox’s attacker shouted “Britain first”. He said: “Somebody tried grabbing, wrestling with him, then he was wielding a knife, a hunting knife. He just started lunging at her with a knife, half a dozen times.” He added that people were screaming and running from the area as the gunman started “lunging at everybody with the knife”. A 77-year-old man was also attacked and injured, although not seriously.

This does not necessarily mean that he was a member of Britain First. Tonight they distanced themselves from him, suggesting that he could have shouted something along the lines of "it's time to put Britain first".

Either way, as more and more details emerge, it looks as though anyone who wants to argue that this wasn't the work of a right-wing extremist is going to find it increasingly difficult to be taken seriously.

Billy86 · 17-06-2016 01:30AM

Stigura wrote: »

Okay. Anybody care to pick the bones out of this one?

<snip>[/LIST]

Gutter tabloid journalism being gutter tabloid journalism was my guess, though they did name him as a gas engineer from Birstall called Grant Rothwell. I even checked on social media because I was skeptical, and he was the first result up both times.

For reference - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brother-man-suspected-killing-jo-8213379

Gas engineer Clarke Rothwell was working near the scene of the murder in Birstall, West Yorks, and heard the shots.

The 42-year-old said: “It was a popping sound, not like you imagine a gunshot to sound like.

“I turned and saw the woman, the MP, fall to the floor. She had Muslim women around her trying to help.

“The woman on the floor was screaming in pain and panic. Her friends were screaming and shouting for help.

“The man had an old-fashioned, antique sort of gun that he had to reload.

"He shot her the first time at point-black range then shot her the second time whilst she was lying on the ground.

“All the time as he was reloading he was stabbing her again and again on the ground in her body and shouting, ‘Britain first, Britain first, Britain first.’

“He was shouting ‘Britain first’ again and again as he stabbed her again and again.

"The knife had a black blade about one foot long. The attacker fired one more shot to her head and at that point it looked like she had passed away.

"There was blood pouring from her all over. One of us, his name is Bernard, tried to intervene but got stabbed in the stomach, blood poured out of his wound and he fell to the ground.”

Both are actually from the same article, and the third hadn't heard the other two (which kind of conflict about the aftermath...)

Another witness Hichem Ben Abdallah, 56, added: “The man was kicking her as she was lying on the floor and pulling her by the hair.

“A very courageous man from the dry cleaners tried to restrain him and he couldn’t because all of a sudden he pulled a gun.

"I saw Jo Cox lying there on the floor with her head tilted back, blood all over her face and her legs. It was devastating to see.

"He walked away very calmly, down the steps. Nobody stopped him, he had a gun.”

As the attacker made off, the stricken MP lay in a pool of blood between two cars with one of her aides crying, ‘No, Jo, No, Jo.’

Local Graeme Howard told how he saw the gunman being arrested.

The 38-year-old said: “He was shouting ‘Britain first’ when he was doing it and being arrested. He was pinned down by two police officers.”

So did he walk away unstopped, calmly down the steps? Or did he get pinned by two policemen while shouting 'Britain First' over and over? Could just be them paying anyone in the general area at the time to say anything, whether they had a good idea of what happened or not.

wokingvoter · 17-06-2016 01:34AM

His brother says he has struggled with poor mental health but had been getting help.
He'd gone downhill following the death of his grandmother and then his mother some years ago.
He was interviewed on either local TV or a local newspaper in 2010 regarding the positive effects on his mental health issues of volunteering in the community .
No conspiracy, no race issues, just an ill man left by the health services to wander around unchecked becoming increasingly befuddled until he decides that he has to shoot and stab to death the mother of 2 small children in order to make everything alright in the world.

12Phase · 17-06-2016 01:42AM

To be honest, I don't really want to know more about this guy. I don't want to see him. I don't want to know his name. Nor do I want to know anything about that other 'thing' that murdered people in Orlando or the other thing rotting away in a prison in Norway.

Just put him in a safe place where he won't do any harm and we never have to hear from him again.
I wouldn't even wish vengeance. I don't see the point. It's like dealing with a mad dog. What's the point in rationalising it?
Just put him somewhere where he will never, ever harm anyone again.

I'm sick and tired of all this death and brutality.
I really never thought I'd be looking at a scenario like this unfolding. It's just horrific. An MP gunned down in Yorkshire. In 2016. WTF!

The one common thread is a narrative that angry, angst-ridden, disturbed individuals are lashing out violently and clinging to extremist ideologies as their excuse for vicious violence like this. Be they right wing domestic terrorists, home-grown disaffected youth who turn into jihadis or those morons who decide to shoot up a school because they feel the world has slighted them.

The same nasty, evil, vicious thread keeps running and I think there's a large element of people copycatting because they feel something/someone has slighted them and they should violently lash out with deadly weapons.

The media and commentators on forums need to stop gruesomely combing over these excuses for humans who do this. There's an element I think that they want the notoriety.

The cycle needs to be broken.

Also, whoever is sending people out instructions for how to construct weapons needs to face an extradition order. Not that the USA would ever extradite anyone to anywhere else or take even slightly grown-up attitudes towards public safety around weapons. Whoever sent that diagram and instructions to this madman has blood on their hands. I can see no other purpose for that diagram other than to cause death.

Stigura · 17-06-2016 02:08AM

Cheers, Ray ~ and no disrespect to the other posters above. I was just waiting for things to develop a bit here.

Yes; BBC is never my first port of call. Guardian? Really not my cup of tea. But, saying that? I've been clicking links all afternoon. This incident's caught my attention far more than the boring twaddle about In / Out / The Ruskies Are About.

RayM wrote: »

Either way, as more and more details emerge, it looks as though anyone who wants to argue that this wasn't the work of a right-wing extremist is going to find it increasingly difficult to be taken seriously.

Found That a bit strong, Ray. Then, as I'm replying, Billy posts, look.

Okay; So our man is ~ seemingly ~ a real person. (If I could be arsed, I'd dig back to and re watch that Mirror clip) Where are these Muslim women who were around Jo, when it kicked off?

Billy asks about the actions after. Again, I was sensing some disparities there. The reports all seemed so confused, as I read them, earlier. But, regarding the walk away / take down? Billy; I got the impression he walked off and the Police tackled him some way off.

Again, this whole question of " Britain First " looks about ready to join the fcuking Book Depositary, doesn't it?

Where are these muslim women??? This is starting to grind my gears! Gas man, from up the road. Chap running in and out of a cafe, or what ever it was. Old chap rushing up and getting knifed. But; Jo ~ it's said ~ had a number of " Muslim women " with her. They were pretty well with her, because they were reported to have been crying;

" Oh, no! Jo! " They knew her bloody name! Not random passers by then. They'd have heard what the attacker was saying. Why aren't they being put before a camera and asked if he was saying " Britain First "?

Very confusing.

Stigura · 17-06-2016 02:14AM

12Phase wrote: »

Whoever sent that diagram and instructions to this madman has blood on their hands. I can see no other purpose for that diagram other than to cause death.

Eh?! This is news to me! Do tell ..... More skins than an onion, already!

Brexit Cereal wrote: »

Britain first!

In before the Ban

12Phase · 17-06-2016 02:20AM

Stigura wrote: »

Eh?! This is news to me! Do tell ..... More skins than an onion, already!

Seems there are reports and full documentation showing that he got the instructions for making a gun from some US right wing group several years ago and actually purchased them along with books etc etc.

Invoices with his name and address etc etc all online.

Stigura · 17-06-2016 02:21AM

wokingvoter wrote: »

Just an ill man left by the health services to wander around unchecked becoming increasingly befuddled until he decides that he has to shoot and stab to death the mother of 2 small children in order to make everything alright in the world.

Yep. More fcuking iron than the Edmund Fitzgerald, isn't there? And IDS ~ todays, British, sick peoples answer to Josef Mengele ~ is an Outy.

Stigura · 17-06-2016 02:35AM

12Phase wrote: »

Seems there are reports and full documentation showing that he got the instructions for making a gun from some US right wing group several years ago .....

That's interesting!

Look; May I just state, right here: I'm terribly sorry if I appear to be hogging this thread, just now

I'm not trying to appear Mr Clever Clogs. This event has gripped me as well as anyone. I too am just trying to find some 'sense' in it all.

I also happen to be a bit of a later nighter. I'll be gone soon and expect there'll be pages more, by the time I get back here this afternoon.

But, yeah; This thing about the gun? Strange, isn't it? " Old " sort of gun? What? Revolver? What amounts to an old sort of gun, these days? Not a Glok 9mm. So ..... what?

Mate of mine made guns. (It's okay. He did it for perfectly harmless personal amusement. He fired them at old fridges, down on the bog. Gards came and put him before a Judge. He'd done his time) But, this boy is a bugger with his hands. Brilliant engineer. Not a weed digger.

Maybe the septics can explain gun makery to Forrest Gump?

Grayson · 17-06-2016 02:39AM

wokingvoter wrote: »

His brother says he has struggled with poor mental health but had been getting help.
He'd gone downhill following the death of his grandmother and then his mother some years ago.
He was interviewed on either local TV or a local newspaper in 2010 regarding the positive effects on his mental health issues of volunteering in the community .
No conspiracy, no race issues, just an ill man left by the health services to wander around unchecked becoming increasingly befuddled until he decides that he has to shoot and stab to death the mother of 2 small children in order to make everything alright in the world.

I'd say there are but it's part of the craziness. The same with the Orlando guy. It's someone who has mental issues and latches onto an ideology.

mansize · 17-06-2016 03:40AM

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/s960x960/13442500_912679598842096_8663172659832710231_o.jpg

bigpink · 17-06-2016 04:12AM

Saipanne wrote: »

Same as the Guardian shutting down comments on anything Islam related. News sites suiting their own agenda shocka.

Off topic thought they hated islam?

stefanovich · 17-06-2016 05:32AM

Jayop wrote:

So you point to one single opinion piece as proof to a paper not having "a pretense of balance"?

It's an editorial, not just an opinion piece.

Regardless of her politics she seemed a very decent and well meaning woman. My sympathies are with her poor children and husband.

FTA69 · 17-06-2016 08:08AM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Ah right, save the pious, kill the rest in a democracy.....

Jog on. I never suggested killing anyone and you're simply going off on a stupid tangent now. All I did was respond to your contention that politicians are a grand bunch, unfairly demonised by the "unwashed". Which is b*llocks.

andekwarhola · 17-06-2016 08:13AM

Grayson wrote: »

I'd say there are but it's part of the craziness. The same with the Orlando guy. It's someone who has mental issues and latches onto an ideology.

Not the full story though. It's the Ian Paisley thing: certain nutcase types are susceptible to violent political (of any hue) rhetoric, which ironically, the issuer willingly promulgates but then disowns people that act upon it as mavericks.

wokingvoter · 17-06-2016 10:00AM

Grayson wrote: »

I'd say there are but it's part of the craziness. The same with the Orlando guy. It's someone who has mental issues and latches onto an ideology.

Yes I agree with you actually. It looks as if she was getting hate mail and threats for months because of her position regarding immigration, whether it was this guy or not I don't know.

Jayop · 17-06-2016 10:06AM

stefanovich wrote: »

It's an editorial, not just an opinion piece.

Regardless of her politics she seemed a very decent and well meaning woman. My sympathies are with her poor children and husband.

And what exactly do you think an editorial is? I'll help you put, this is from the first line in the wiki article for editorial.

"An editorial, leading article (US) or leader (UK), is an opinion piece written by the senior editorial staff"

donegaLroad · 17-06-2016 10:38AM

it is reported in todays news that the guy that carried out the attack on Jo Cox is non violent and non political.

Letree · 17-06-2016 10:52AM

donegaLroad wrote: »

it is reported in todays news that the guy that carried out the attack on Jo Cox is non violent and non political.

He seemed to have connected himself with a South African apartheid magazine and an American Neo Nazi organisation.

Little CuChulainn · 17-06-2016 10:52AM

donegaLroad wrote: »

it is reported in todays news that the guy that carried out the attack on Jo Cox is non violent and non political.

He just happened to violently murder a politician.

dav3 · 17-06-2016 11:09AM

donegaLroad wrote: »

it is reported in todays news that the guy that carried out the attack on Jo Cox is non violent and non political.

What exactly is "todays news"? He murdered a politician by shooting her 3 times and then stabbing her multiple times. On that alone he is extremely violent and political.

jmayo · 17-06-2016 11:10AM

Billy86 wrote: »

Gutter tabloid journalism being gutter tabloid journalism was my guess, though they did name him as a gas engineer from Birstall called Grant Rothwell. I even checked on social media because I was skeptical, and he was the first result up both times.

For reference - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brother-man-suspected-killing-jo-8213379

Both are actually from the same article, and the third hadn't heard the other two (which kind of conflict about the aftermath...)

So did he walk away unstopped, calmly down the steps? Or did he get pinned by two policemen while shouting 'Britain First' over and over? Could just be them paying anyone in the general area at the time to say anything, whether they had a good idea of what happened or not.

He was arrested a mile or so away AFAIK.
By all accounts the police thought it might be part of a bigger attack and probably were trying to get a handle on what was happening.

I have never heard of this lady and whilst I might not agree with her policies this is a very dangerous attack on democracy.
There are two young children today without their mother due to some nutjob who has hitched his wagon to a despicable fundamentalist ideology.

When is the madness going to stop ?

Grayson wrote: »

I'd say there are but it's part of the craziness. The same with the Orlando guy. It's someone who has mental issues and latches onto an ideology.

It looks like another lone wolf attack, but the scary thing now is that the nutjobs and malcontents are going to the the most fundamentalist ideologies.
It is becoming ever more hard for security forces to stop these kinds of attack.

The fact that some Western societies are becoming more polarised into two very disparate groups means these nutjobs probably feel they have some sort of validation for their actions.

Saipanne · 17-06-2016 11:22AM

jmayo wrote: »

He was arrested a mile or so away AFAIK.
By all accounts the police thought it might be part of a bigger attack and probably were trying to get a handle on what was happening.

I have never heard of this lady and whilst I might not agree with her policies this is a very dangerous attack on democracy.
There are two young children today without their mother due to some nutjob who has hitched his wagon to a despicable fundamentalist ideology.

When is the madness going to stop ?

It looks like another lone wolf attack, but the scary thing now is that the nutjobs and malcontents are going to the the most fundamentalist ideologies.
It is becoming ever more hard for security forces to stop these kinds of attack.

The fact that some Western societies are becoming more polarised into two very disparate groups means these nutjobs probably feel they have some sort of validation for their actions.

Indeed, people are so polarised in their thinking these days. If you don't bow down to every lefties point of view, you're automatically labeled as a bigoted, foaming at the mouth fascist.

And vice versa. I think the internet has led to the death of philosophical thinking. It's all react, react, react.

12Phase · 17-06-2016 11:34AM

The nutjobs have ALWAYS been around. I think we risk over analysing this.

The guy is a domestic terrorist and a violent murderer. He needs to be away for good.

No amount of explaining this by talking about the society being too PC or even the Brexit debate explains this.

All we need to know is whether he was part of an organised group or a lone wolf.

If it's a conspiracy and an organised thing, they need to start rounding up the terrorists.

Howard the Duck · 17-06-2016 11:47AM

This is just very very sad. I can't begin to think what her husband is going through and how he explains this to their young children, what a horrible thing to have to think about.

I believe that some people are just nuts and latch on to groups to feel part of something and that's my hunch on what happened with the killer here. I seriously doubt that people involved with Britain First wanted anything like this.

The singer Peter Gabriel put up a nice post about her on FB, he met her at some leadership training thing they were both at.

British Labour MP shot near Leeds (mod warning in first post)

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