Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

Jack Killian · 14-06-2016 11:02AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

Who said we have to empathise with him? From the very start of this thread, everyone who posted that I recognise as a member of the LGBT community has said this was a homophobic attack, and that homophobia in all forms needs to be addressed.

Grief does strange things. "Why me?" is a common one, when in actual fact there's often no answer, because it was random.

It may well have been a horrendous targetted attack, but someone who has a link, however tenuous, to the group is not in the best position to judge.

Either way it's not an us and them issue. Someone murdered people. It's counterproductive to divide, especially when the same group is usually demanding inclusivity.

Edit: Let me try to explain myself so that you don't misinterpret this one.

If he'd gone in to a straight nightclub, would you object / be surprised if everyone straight was highlighting that 50 of "ours" had been murdered ?

Would you feel unnecessarily excluded ?

People were murdered by a psycho. Headlines the other day blamed Islam, now they're blaming gayness. Papers never refused ink.

I'll say it again. People were murdered. Senseless, unexplainable. Let's pull together to honour them and not be divisive about it.

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 11:02AM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Yesterday he was responsible for the worst attack on the LGBTI community since the holocaust, but today we have empathise with him because he was struggling with his sexuality, what a strange world we live in

Nobody is empathising with him. He is as homophobic as any gay hating straight person and as ****ty a person as they come, regardless of what his orientation was.

stoplooklisten · 14-06-2016 11:10AM

Samaris wrote: »

Turkey.

Next.

20Cent wrote: »

It's proven in the results. The countries where Islam is the state religion where one can be jailed or killed for criticism of it have far higher percentages claiming to want Sharia law in the 80's or 90's. The more secular countries like Turkey it is 12%.
If being Muslim is a binary all in or nothing deal then all the countries should be giving similar answers. Jose in the strictest regimes aren't free to give honest answers will give the safest ones.

yeah, about Turkey...

The right-wing newspaper has links to the country’s President and has been known to support the likes of Al-Qaeda.

A Turkish newspaper has called those massacred in the Orlando shooting ‘perverts’ and ‘deviants’.

Yeni Akit published the homophobic headline: ‘Death toll rises to 50 in bar where perverted homosexuals go!’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/13/turkish-website-reports-50-perverts-killed-in-a-bar-5940486/#ixzz4BXz7u2Tn

WoolyJumper · 14-06-2016 11:15AM

my friend wrote: »

Are you having a laugh?

Shooter in Bataclan homosexual, shooter in Orlando homosexual and instead of trying to understand how the homosexual community alienated them you seek to blame society as a whole?

Get off the stage

Really? its the gay communities fault for not accepting him? Couldn't possibly have anything to do with his Afghan cultural background, his religion, his fathers extremist views and even US culture.

You don't even know whether he tried to be accepted by the gay community or not. Anyway none this is a justification. I'm frankly just dumbfounded by that comment.

ParkRunner · 14-06-2016 11:15AM

WoolyJumper wrote: »

Owen Jones said this was a homophobic attack. Seems like he was right to me. A gay person can be homophobic. I'd argue most of us are, most of us spend a period of time struggling with our sexuality. Given this guys culture, his father, his religion he was bound have internalised homophobia if he was gay/bi.

I'm not very comfortable typing that because feels almost like I'm making excuses for him. I'm certainly not. There is no justification for what he did

From my reading of his interview he was pigeonholing the attack into a homophobic hate crime by an Islamic terrorist who had shown a hatred for gay people in the past. He would not accept or even listen to any other possible interpretation of the reasons for the attack.

No doubt it was a homophobic attack but my point was that he possibly murdered the 49 people for more complex reasons, as you said yourself. A journalist for a national newspaper should at least gather some facts and explore all possibilities before going on live tv and stating the position as to what happened with passion and emotion. It is actually dangerous to be doing such a thing in the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy

RobertKK · 14-06-2016 11:22AM

I still don't understand why Owen Jones stormed off Sky news.

seamus · 14-06-2016 11:26AM

ParkRunner wrote: »

From my reading of his interview he was pigeonholing the attack into a homophobic hate crime by an Islamic terrorist who had shown a hatred for gay people in the past. He would not accept or even listen to any other possible interpretation of the reasons for the attack.

No doubt it was a homophobic attack but my point was that he possibly murdered the 49 people for more complex reasons, as you said yourself. A journalist for a national newspaper should at least gather some facts and explore all possibilities before going on live tv and stating the position as to what happened with passion and emotion. It is actually dangerous to be doing such a thing in the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy

Owen Jones's upset was at the fact that Sky News were attempting to frame this as an ISIS attack on western culture and downplay the fact that the targetted club was gay. I.e. claim that it was an attack on western culture rather than an attack on gay people.

It's now clear that the latter is exactly what it was and there was effectively no real Islamic terrorist aspect to it.

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 11:29AM

ParkRunner wrote: »

From my reading of his interview he was pigeonholing the attack into a homophobic hate crime by an Islamic terrorist who had shown a hatred for gay people in the past. He would not accept or even listen to any other possible interpretation of the reasons for the attack.

No doubt it was a homophobic attack but my point was that he possibly murdered the 49 people for more complex reasons, as you said yourself. A journalist for a national newspaper should at least gather some facts and explore all possibilities before going on live tv and stating the position as to what happened with passion and emotion. It is actually dangerous to be doing such a thing in the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy

The man pledged allegiance to IS, a group well known for their heinous crimes committed against suspected gay people,including torture and public execution by being thrown off the top of skyscrapers. Hardly that big of a jump to assume an IS radical muslim shooting up a gay bar was motivated by homophobia ,jesus
But yeh now journalists should investigate further as more information has come to light. Would it really have been that surprising if an IS radical shot up a gay bar though for no other reason than extremist homophobia. I wouldnt think so

WoolyJumper · 14-06-2016 11:31AM

ParkRunner wrote: »

From my reading of his interview he was pigeonholing the attack into a homophobic hate crime by an Islamic terrorist who had shown a hatred for gay people in the past. He would not accept or even listen to any other possible interpretation of the reasons for the attack.

No doubt it was a homophobic attack but my point was that he possibly murdered the 49 people for more complex reasons, as you said yourself. A journalist for a national newspaper should at least gather some facts and explore all possibilities before going on live tv and stating the position as to what happened with passion and emotion. It is actually dangerous to be doing such a thing in the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy

I should say I agree with you for the most part. The way I saw it though was this guy was frustrated by the fact that this was a homophobic attack, the biggest attack on the LGBT community since the holocaust. The biggest mass shooting in US history was targeted at gay people and was kind of being swept under the carpet. Not just by Sky News but many media reports. Even our 6 one news didn't mention that this was an attack on the LGBT community. They didn't even refer to it as a gay club, just a club. He was frustrated by the fact that it was an attack on the LGBT community was going largely ignored. I don't think he got his point across very well, he put it much better on his statement he released later but i'd put that down to him feeling frustrated, emotion and those other two shouting over him.

RobertKK · 14-06-2016 11:31AM

seamus wrote: »

Owen Jones's upset was at the fact that Sky News were attempting to frame this as an ISIS attack on western culture and downplay the fact that the targetted club was gay. I.e. claim that it was an attack on western culture rather than an attack on gay people.

It's now clear that the latter is exactly what it was and there was effectively no real Islamic terrorist aspect to it.

Yet the FBI have come out and said they are highly confident the terrorist was self radicalised.

Age range of victims go from 18 years old to 50 years old.

reason vs religion · 14-06-2016 11:32AM

seamus wrote: »

Owen Jones's upset was at the fact that Sky News were attempting to frame this as an ISIS attack on western culture and downplay the fact that the targetted club was gay. I.e. claim that it was an attack on western culture rather than an attack on gay people.

It's now clear that the latter is exactly what it was and there was effectively no real Islamic terrorist aspect to it.

His position has arguably been shown to be the correct one in light of the gunman's supposed sexuality. But Jones didn't know that at the time and should be judged only on what information existed then.

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 11:36AM

WoolyJumper wrote: »

I should say I agree with you for the most part. The way I saw it though was this guy was frustrated by the fact that this was a homophobic attack, the biggest attack on the LGBT community since the holocaust. The biggest mass shooting in US history was targeted at gay people and was kind of being swept under the carpet. Not just by Sky News but many media reports. Even our 6 one news didn't mention that this was an attack on the LGBT community. They didn't even refer to it as a gay club, just a club. He was frustrated by the fact that it was an attack on the LGBT community was going largely ignored. I don't think he got his point across very well, he put it much better on his statement he released later but i'd put that down to him feeling frustrated, emotion and those other two shouting over him.

Ive heard lots of people saying this but my news feed is full of lgbt flags of support and profile picture changes and love hearts and posts about homophobia and I have yet to read a news report on any media site or channel that didnt mention it was a gay bar. It is great to see it I just don't see how its been ignored at all by anyone that it was a gay hate crime. I think the fact that its a gay hate crime has been strongly emphasised but just maybe not to the same extent as the racial aspect of the Charlestown massacre. So you have a point there I guess

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 11:39AM

Did I not see he planned to attack Disney as well ? Was it not just an opportune place to shoot up ? More attacks on what they call western values ?

tigger123 · 14-06-2016 11:45AM

wakka12 wrote: »

Oh come on, a gay person killing 50 gay people is extremely surprising. I know some closeted people can be very homophobic but never to such an extent like this

Of course it is, its disgusting, I'm not saying that it isn't.

What's not surprising is that a homophobic person was repressing their own sexuality, and projecting that anger onto the LGBT community. Now, in this instance he took that to an extreme conclusion, but I'm talking about his rage that he's directed against gay people.

Michah · 14-06-2016 11:51AM

seamus wrote: »

Owen Jones's upset was at the fact that Sky News were attempting to frame this as an ISIS attack on western culture and downplay the fact that the targetted club was gay. I.e. claim that it was an attack on western culture rather than an attack on gay people.

It's now clear that the latter is exactly what it was and there was effectively no real Islamic terrorist aspect to it.

An Islamic terrorist organisation releases a kill-list of Florida residents via encrypted channels and calls for lone wolves in Florida to act. A Muslim guy who's been on an FBI terrorism watchlist, and who's father is an open supporter of the Taliban, proceeds to kill people in response. He declares that he's committing this act in allegiance with the Islamic terrorist organisation who have been calling for the attacks. He Allahu Ackbars throughout and martyrs himself at the end. The Islamic terrorist organisation commends his martyrdom and reaffirms that the organisation is responsible for the attack.

But it's nothing to do with Islamic terrorism.

stoplooklisten · 14-06-2016 11:53AM

Michah wrote: »

An Islamic terrorist organisation releases a kill-list of Florida residents via encrypted channels and calls for lone wolves in Florida to act. A Muslim guy who's been on an FBI terrorism watchlist, and who's father is an open supporter of the Taliban, proceeds to kill people in response. He declares that he's committing this act in allegiance with the Islamic terrorist organisation who have been calling for the attacks. He Allahu Ackbars throughout and martyrs himself at the end. The Islamic terrorist organisation commends his martyrdom and reaffirms that the organisation is responsible for the attack.

But it's nothing to do with Islamic terrorism.

no. nothing at all. It's homophobic, which we all are.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 11:53AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

I can't give any examples of a huge religious presence in the fight for LGBT rights. I attended a Unitarian (Christian) church near me for a while. They advocated for LGBT rights, also for reproductive rights, and supported anti-racist initiatives. These views were occasionally spoken about at the church, but when I was attending the average attendance was about ten people, who pretty much already agreed with LGBT, women's and minority rights initiatives, and campaigned and lobbied for such. So I don't think it had any big effect in general.

Earlier in this thread there were links to Muslim clerics advocating for LGBT rights, and performing same sex marriages. One church was phyiscally attacked by other muslims, and someone said that one of the other clerics had to keep the location of their mosque secret. So again, while they were advocating for equal rights, they were an extreme minority.

I don't think there is a huge presence of any religion in the fight for the rights of any minority. I think the complete opposite is the case. That religion is one of the most damaging things for LGBT and other minority rights.

But I think if bigotry is going to be stamped out, it will take the chuch's involvement. They hold huge influence. I think they will have to preach to their followers that LGBT rights, and minority rights are what is good and right for the world.

I don't see that happening. I can't see an end to bigotry. But if there is an end to bigotry the churches will play a huge part in it.

That's pretty much what I thought - a few 'minor' (as in small- not a value judgement) Christian denominations (although I think most of the Non-Conformists were at best divided and at worst rabidly anti...) and some clerics of other religions going on a solo run.

I can't see any 'hardcore' followers of any of the Abrahamic religions abandoning bigotry as it is written into their holy books - the whole shebang is based on an Us (the chosen faithfull saved) Vs Them (godless damned heathens).
I was just wondering if I had missed something.

Samaris · 14-06-2016 11:53AM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

yeah, about Turkey...

The right-wing newspaper has links to the country’s President and has been known to support the likes of Al-Qaeda.

A Turkish newspaper has called those massacred in the Orlando shooting ‘perverts’ and ‘deviants’.

Yeni Akit published the homophobic headline: ‘Death toll rises to 50 in bar where perverted homosexuals go!’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/13/turkish-website-reports-50-perverts-killed-in-a-bar-5940486/#ixzz4BXz7u2Tn

Oh, Turkey has got a bad side. I remember an acquaintence back in uni who, when we were talking one time, said that she was struggling with what to do, because her family didn't think she should come back as radical Islam was growing and they were afraid she'd be forced into a role at odds with who she is and her education.

You asked a question, I answered it simply. Now, you can continue moving the goalposts (if it was you that asked the gay imam question and then the gay parades question, if it wasn't you than whoever it is can keep moving the goalposts,) I just answered the question as it was given.

Don't think I'm defending radical Islam. Or radical anything. Or, really, Islam itself. I don't particularly like organised religion as a whole and I don't like a lot of Islam's messages. My sole point in all this is as regards that aspect is that I'm not going to blame over a billion people (I think it works out as) for the actions of a nasty, brutal minority.

Lyaiera · 14-06-2016 11:54AM

wakka12 wrote: »

Ive heard lots of people saying this but my news feed is full of lgbt flags of support and profile picture changes and love hearts and posts about homophobia and I have yet to read a news report on any media site or channel that didnt mention it was a gay bar. It is great to see it I just don't see how its been ignored at all by anyone that it was a gay hate crime. I think the fact that its a gay hate crime has been strongly emphasised but just maybe not to the same extent as the racial aspect of the Charlestown massacre. So you have a point there I guess

I have seen some, but not much annoyance at people not stating this was a predominantly Latin LGBT club. I would have to assume there were people of every ethnicity regularly going to the club, but the majority of people there were of Latin ethnicity. And it was how the club was advertised.

Jack Killian · 14-06-2016 11:54AM

Michah wrote: »

An Islamic terrorist organisation releases a kill-list of Florida residents via encrypted channels and calls for lone wolves in Florida to act. A Muslim guy who's been on an FBI terrorism watchlist, and who's father is an open supporter of the Taliban, proceeds to kill people in response. He declares that he's committing this act in allegiance with the Islamic terrorist organisation who have been calling for the attacks. He Allahu Ackbars throughout and martyrs himself at the end. The Islamic terrorist organisation commends his martyrdom and reaffirms that the organisation is responsible for the attack.

But it's nothing to do with Islamic terrorism.

Hmmm...... how do you know that it was "in response" ?

You could possibly be correct, but it's based on your assumption that there was cause and effect.

Psychos act for reasons only known to themselves; and sometimes not even that. I wouldn't exactly trust the word of someone who's capable of murdering 50 people as to their motivation.

Hell, the US even lied about their motivation for entering Iraq because of an unrelated event that was all over the news that week.

ParkRunner · 14-06-2016 11:55AM

WoolyJumper wrote: »

I should say I agree with you for the most part. The way I saw it though was this guy was frustrated by the fact that this was a homophobic attack, the biggest attack on the LGBT community since the holocaust. The biggest mass shooting in US history was targeted at gay people and was kind of being swept under the carpet. Not just by Sky News but many media reports. Even our 6 one news didn't mention that this was an attack on the LGBT community. They didn't even refer to it as a gay club, just a club. He was frustrated by the fact that it was an attack on the LGBT community was going largely ignored. I don't think he got his point across very well, he put it much better on his statement he released later but i'd put that down to him feeling frustrated, emotion and those other two shouting over him.

There did seem to be a fairly repressed reaction to the tragedy, compared to Paris for example, but I don't think there was any deliberate attempt made to hide the fact that it was an attack against the LGBT community.

I lost all respect for the man (Owen) when he said to the effect that "You wouldn't understand because you are not gay". If the presenter said to him you wouldn't understand because you are gay he would have his P45 and faced a serious backlash.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 11:56AM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

No. That is not certain.

He went there, to a packed place he frequented and knew he would get access to, to kill as many people as possible with the weapons and ammunition he had. As he did so he didn't shout anti homosexual words, but another slogan we are all familiar with.
If he was there simply because he hated gays then he would surely have used his last words to make his reasons known.
Where else would he go to inflict maximum casualties but somewhere he was known and was comfortable in?

I don't believe this was a homophobic attack.

If he drove 90 miles to murder people in a synagogue would you say it wasn't Anti-Semetic?

You clearly don't understand how homophobia works or how internalised it can be.

Lyaiera · 14-06-2016 11:57AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That's pretty much what I thought - a few 'minor' (as in small- not a value judgement) Christian denominations (although I think most of the Non-Conformists were at best divided and at worst rabidly anti...) and some clerics of other religions going on a solo run.

I can't see any 'hardcore' followers of any of the Abrahamic religions abandoning bigotry as it is written into their holy books - the whole shebang is based on an Us (the chosen faithfull saved) Vs Them (godless damned heathens).
I was just wondering if I had missed something.

No. You didn't miss anything. And I didn't mean to imply in what I said that the major religions are supportive of LGBT people and other minorities. Just that if there is to be a total cultural shift, it would take the support of the major churches. Especially as I can't see them becoming irrelevant.

12Phase · 14-06-2016 11:58AM

ParkRunner wrote: »

Does this mean Owen Jones was wrong!? It seems to be a far more complex situation than just a religious fanatic (terrorist) targeting the gay population because their sexual orientation is at odds with his religion.

The reasons for the attack cannot be easily categorised, as seemed to happen with strong emotion in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy. It is a sad result of the development of social media and thirst for immediate headline news that some time cannot be taken to stand back and analyse all the facts, as there is often a bigger picture

It is a more complicated situation than either scenario.

It's homophobic, it's an unstable person lashing out, it's jihadi terrorism, it's ridiculously lax gun laws, it's a whole disastrous mess that has caused a huge amount of bloodshed.

I don't think Owen was wrong to be annoyed with someone watering down the fact that it's an attack on the LGBT community though. That definitely happened in that discussion. It is multifactorial though.

Snickers Man · 14-06-2016 11:58AM

wakka12 wrote: »

To be fair nobody really said or is saying that.. Well in the case of Paris and Brussels I definitely never once heard anyone say those things you said and I know a lot of hardcore PC people.

Never come between a man and his straw men opponents. It's like taking a child's imaginary friend away.

Jack Killian · 14-06-2016 11:59AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If he drove 90 miles to murder people in a synagogue would you say it wasn't Anti-Semetic?

You clearly don't understand how homophobia works or how internalised it can be.

If he drove 90 miles to somewhere he'd never been, maybe.

If he drove 90 miles to somewhere he frequented fairly regularly, then surely it's a valid question ?

StewartGriffin · 14-06-2016 11:59AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Any proof of this? Not being a dick but honestly have not read this so genuinely interested if there are witness reports to this.

Had a look for a link for you but seems it's just hearsay at the moment. Sorry, thought it was reported by a witness.

But Trump tweeted it so it must be true.

Snickers Man · 14-06-2016 12:01PM

ParkRunner wrote: »

Does this mean Owen Jones was wrong!?

The big story is not about Owen Jones. He says so himself. He has said it on his Twitter feed.
On his Facebook posts.
In a lengthy article he wrote about his TV performance in The Guardian.
"It's not about me. Right? I'm not the story.

HELLO!!! Can you hear me? It's not about me."

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 12:04PM

Owen Jones, "Look how outraged I am" "Look look everyone how much I portray my outrage" Bet there was a lot of high fives and back slapping on his twitter.

Samaris · 14-06-2016 12:05PM

I wouldn't say that it was nothing to do with Islamic extremism. That's going too far the other way. It was to do with homophobia (his trigger was apparently "two boys kissing", although his own confusion over his own sexuality probably entered into it. It was to do with the messages he was imbibing from radical arseholes who encourage confused young idiots to murder for -their- goals. It was to do with the religious cultism. It was to do with the mental health of this guy, which sounds dubious in the extreme (and probably not helped by a family background where his father thinks he's the king of Afghanistan or whatever) And the method and ease with which he did it was to do with how incredibly easy it is to pick up a "tool" for the pure purpose of killing as rapidly as possible.

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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