Is dodging the salary question a common thing here?

LirW · 13-06-2016 12:52PM #1

Hello,

I just came home from an interview, it wasn't my first one here in Ireland and I noticed one thing that happened in prior interviews too: When I was asking for the annual salary for the role I applied for every interviewer beside one dodged this question. I got a job offered a couple of weeks ago where the whole recruitment process was with the company (I applied on their page) and it was always said I'm working for them; when they offered me the job it turned out I'm working as a contractor a big, well known agency(it wasn't mentioned once before) and the pay rate was pretty bad.
Long story short, it made me suspicious and it happened again today.

Salary wasn't brought up, so I asked what they offer for the position. Immediately it was said, depending on if they hire you or not they'll tell you anything anyway. My partner and also his uncle, who works at a job centre, told me something like that should make you suspicious.

So my question is, is this a common thing here?

Field is Marketing/IT.

13-06-2016 01:01PM

Depends who you are interviewing with.

In marketing / IT there is no fixed salary for a role. There is probably a budget for it, but telling you that number gives their hand away so they won't do that unless forced (and how would you force them?)

In most cases, if they like you, you will be asked what your expectations are. They are hoping you will say a number a good bit lower than their budget, but also checking that you are not completely out of their league before wasting more time.

When a company decides to offer you a role they will then tell you the salary and package. At that stage they should have a decent idea of what you are expecting so in your first example somebody got that badly wrong. In the second case, it sounds like totally normal procedure.

I am in marketing/IT and operate on both sides of the table when it comes to interviews, and to be honest if a candidate asked how much the salary was in a first interview it would put me off. Not the done thing. BTW when you are asked what your expectations are the best advice is to deflect the question or if you HAVE to say a number, say the biggest one you can deliver with a straight face.

LirW · 13-06-2016 01:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Depends who you are interviewing with.

In marketing / IT there is no fixed salary for a role. There is probably a budget for it, but telling you that number gives their hand away so they won't do that unless forced (and how would you force them?)

In most cases, if they like you, you will be asked what your expectations are. They are hoping you will say a number a good bit lower than their budget, but also checking that you are not completely out of their league before wasting more time.

When a company decides to offer you a role they will then tell you the salary and package. At that stage they should have a decent idea of what you are expecting so in your first example somebody got that badly wrong. In the second case, it sounds like totally normal procedure.

I am in marketing/IT and operate on both sides of the table when it comes to interviews, and to be honest if a candidate asked how much the salary was in a first interview it would put me off. Not the done thing. BTW when you are asked what your expectations are the best advice is to deflect the question or if you HAVE to say a number, say the biggest one you can deliver with a straight face.

Thanks a lot for that!

Where I come from, it's mandatory to advertise annual or monthly salary and usually if it's not brought up it should raise a flag.

But what you say makes sense of course, so there is no reason to worry I guess.

godtabh · 13-06-2016 02:18PM

LirW wrote: »

Thanks a lot for that!

Where I come from, it's mandatory to advertise annual or monthly salary and usually if it's not brought up it should raise a flag.

But what you say makes sense of course, so there is no reason to worry I guess.

That's where you come. Its not the norm here which can be frustrating. As has been said research into similar roles and bench marking is key

13-06-2016 02:29PM

It's bizarre, in a lot of cases you're supposed to act like you would love the job, that you're not really in it for the money. Interviewer and interviewee know this is not the case, but everyone plays along.

LirW · 13-06-2016 02:39PM

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

It's bizarre, in a lot of cases you're supposed to act like you would love the job, that you're not really in it for the money. Interviewer and interviewee know this is not the case, but everyone plays along.

Funny thing, on Thursday I have an interview for a job I'd love to get and they have salary transparency from the very first mail contact on.

But as I said before, it's good to know that it's nothing I have to worry about too much

intheclouds · 13-06-2016 02:43PM

I dont bother wasting time with a company if they are not upfront about salary range immediately.

It wastes my time and their time.

LirW · 13-06-2016 02:50PM

intheclouds wrote: »

I dont bother wasting time with a company if they are not upfront about salary range immediately.

It wastes my time and their time.

May I ask in what field you work?

Lux23 · 13-06-2016 02:50PM

I think some places are afraid to commit to anything until they know who the candidate is. They may be prepared to pay a salary of between €30,000 and €40,000, but the 40k might be someone with experience while the €30k is for someone with one or two years experience.

Which is silly because job offers will often fall through because the candidate is not happy with the salary and they have to go through the process all over again.

intheclouds · 13-06-2016 02:56PM

LirW wrote: »

May I ask in what field you work?

Software development.

kevohmsford · 14-06-2016 10:50AM

I have spoken to a lot of recruiters recently and completed a few interviews. In the Netherlands the people are more upfront about salary. Most of the time in Ireland they ask what my salary is but I counter and ask what the position is paying.

kevohmsford · 14-06-2016 10:52AM

Personally I don't see the point of going through the whole interview process only to find out the position is not paying what you expected.

ohnonotgmail · 14-06-2016 01:53PM

intheclouds wrote: »

I dont bother wasting time with a company if they are not upfront about salary range immediately.

It wastes my time and their time.

agreed. i wont even look at a job ad if there isnt a salary range specified.

intheclouds · 14-06-2016 02:03PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

agreed. i wont even look at a job ad if there isnt a salary range specified.

There is no point - I apply for jobs that tick a range of boxes. Role/salary/overall package/location/hours/flexibility etc....

If any of those boxes are hidden I dont bother applying. Not knowing salary range would be like applying for a job then being told later it was actually based in a different county!

14-06-2016 02:05PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

agreed. i wont even look at a job ad if there isnt a salary range specified.

For the benefit of the OP.

Very few marketing / tech jobs will specify a salary. No senior ones will (not sure if that's what you are looking for, but worth calling out).

If you go in asking about salary in a first call or interview, you sound like someone hoping to get a job, rather than someone who might consider working for the organisation. Trust me, there's a big, big difference between those two attitudes and good recruiters can tell them apart easily. In case it needs pointed out you want to be in the latter camp.

If you want reassurance early in the process then do a little research and figure out what the role should command. If you absolutely must I suppose you can gently inquire about salary range with the intention of 'making sure we don't waste each others time' but like I say, if they like you they will bring it up soon enough (unless they don't know what they are doing, in which case do you want to work for them?)

intheclouds · 14-06-2016 02:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

For the benefit of the OP.

Very few marketing / tech jobs will specify a salary. No senior ones will (not sure if that's what you are looking for, but worth calling out).

If you go in asking about salary in a first call or interview, you sound like someone hoping to get a job, rather than someone who might consider working for the organisation. Trust me, there's a big, big difference between those two attitudes and good recruiters can tell them apart easily. In case it needs pointed out you want to be in the latter camp.

If you want reassurance early in the process then do a little research and figure out what the role should command. If you absolutely must I suppose you can gently inquire about salary range with the intention of 'making sure we don't waste each others time' but like I say, if they like you they will bring it up soon enough (unless they don't know what they are doing, in which case do you want to work for them?)

I just cant agree with this at all.

If a place is not upfront about the salary its because they are offering too low.

ohnonotgmail · 14-06-2016 02:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

For the benefit of the OP.

Very few marketing / tech jobs will specify a salary. No senior ones will (not sure if that's what you are looking for, but worth calling out).

If you go in asking about salary in a first call or interview, you sound like someone hoping to get a job, rather than someone who might consider working for the organisation. Trust me, there's a big, big difference between those two attitudes and good recruiters can tell them apart easily. In case it needs pointed out you want to be in the latter camp.

If you want reassurance early in the process then do a little research and figure out what the role should command. If you absolutely must I suppose you can gently inquire about salary range with the intention of 'making sure we don't waste each others time' but like I say, if they like you they will bring it up soon enough (unless they don't know what they are doing, in which case do you want to work for them?)

out of the 16 job ads that were in my morning email from Monster 13 specified a salary. of the other 3 one was a graduate role and another was included only because it includes one of the keywords i look for. These are dev jobs btw so i presume you would include that under tech. and they are all senior roles.

14-06-2016 02:37PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

out of the 16 job ads that were in my morning email from Monster 13 specified a salary. of the other 3 one was a graduate role and another was included only because it includes one of the keywords i look for. These are dev jobs btw so i presume you would include that under tech. and they are all senior roles.

I'm assuming marketing/IT in the OP's post has the emphasis on the former, it may be different in straight up software development, happy to acknowledge that.

We don't include salary details in ads, last digital marketing person I hired is on 85K, maybe you think that is underpaid, I don't. I can't remember the last time I knew a salary range when applying for a job.

It is probably true that if you are going through a recruitment agency (not something I would particularly recommend) they will often have and be happy to share a range, but it would be a huge mistake to assume that no salary details means a job isn't worth pursuing, and I don't think it's fair to tell the OP that.

intheclouds · 14-06-2016 02:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It is probably true that if you are going through a recruitment agency (not something I would particularly recommend) they will often have and be happy to share a range, but it would be a huge mistake to assume that no salary details means a job isn't worth pursuing, and I don't think it's fair to tell the OP that.

We can all only speak from experience and any time the salary hasnt been revealed to me its been because it was way too low.

My husband actually went for a role before (his acceptable range was 6 figures) and after 2 interviews the guy said that he was offering 30k - I mean - thats just absolutely a waste of everyones time. He wouldnt have gone near the application if he had known it was that low. He had taken time off work and rearranged meetings to see this guy.

There is a practical aspect to this. I simply couldnt work for less than a certain figure because my mortgage and lifestyle is based on commanding that amount. Its nothing to do with "wanting to work for the organisation" and frankly an organisation that thought id work there for a silly small sum of money is an organisation that doesnt value my knowledge and experience.

12Phase · 14-06-2016 02:48PM

I actually walked out of a 3rd round interview when they started suggesting a ridiculously low salary (probably 50-60% below market rate and below what I could get elsewhere and what I was already on!!!).

I was very annoyed as they'd completely wasted my time and basically led me up a garden path. They didn't have the budget for the role they were trying to recruit and were basically living in cloud cuckoo land. The company subsequently folded.

I'm VERY careful now to ensure I get an idea of salaries before things get too time consuming.

14-06-2016 02:57PM

intheclouds wrote: »

There is a practical aspect to this. I simply couldnt work for less than a certain figure because my mortgage and lifestyle is based on commanding that amount. Its nothing to do with "wanting to work for the organisation" and frankly an organisation that thought id work there for a silly small sum of money is an organisation that doesnt value my knowledge and experience.

Just on this last point and in case of confusion, the reason to communicate an attitude that says "I am trying to decide whether to work for this organisation" is precisely because that is how you earn more money.

If you go in and ask for salary details because you have to pay a mortgage (which isn't any concern of theirs btw), you will get lowballed. That's just a fact, the only exception is if the person on the other side of the table has no clue what they are doing. Which to be fair, isn't that unlikely. If you then say that the figure they quote sounds fine, you've just done yourself out of quite a lot of money.

If you don't ask about salary but approach the role with the attitude of "I know how good I am and how much value I can add to this organisation, and we're going to find out if a) you interest me enough and b) you can pay me enough" you will be better off. You want to get them engaged and wanting you, and you specifically. When that happens, you get to name the salary rather than the other way around.

This is how all sales work in fact, which is why companies selling expensive services B2B don't like to quote a price until they've got you very interested. What they DO do, of course, is 'qualify' a prospect so that they know they CAN pay a lot when the time comes. I of course advise someone to do that. If you are interviewing with a company you've never heard of in a shed in Darndale then you'd want to have a good reason to believe they can afford you. On the other hand if you are talking to an organization that you know is either very profitable or just got funded, I would always advise waiting as long as you can to have the salary conversation. Accepting that it isn't always practical for everyone to do that.

intheclouds · 14-06-2016 03:14PM

Sorry Orinoco - you are of course entitled to your opinion but I really think you are incorrect here.

With the exception of a couple of timewasters Ive only ever had positive experiences with salaries discussed up front.

Ive no idea what you even mean by "lowballed" as if the salary is not up to standards I simply decline to proceed.

14-06-2016 03:25PM

intheclouds wrote: »

Sorry Orinoco - you are of course entitled to your opinion but I really think you are incorrect here.

With the exception of a couple of timewasters Ive only ever had positive experiences with salaries discussed up front.

Ive no idea what you even mean by "lowballed" as if the salary is not up to standards I simply decline to proceed.

Any role has a budget. There's an upper number that a company knows it will go to and a range within which they believe they might get someone in at. All this assuming a functional recruitment process of course.

If you ask up front about salary and insist on getting a number, you'll hear the low end of that range. Of course you will, any recruiter will always do that, it's absolutely basic negotiation skills.

If you decide that's not enough you can of course walk away.

What you don't know is that when they gave you a number, their ceiling was 1.5x that amount (or more, if they really fall in love with you). But they won't say that until they are sure you are worth it.

Anyway, gotta do some work myself! I stand by my advice to the OP, there's nothing necessarily suspicious about an employer not wanting to say a number up front and they shouldn't reject roles out of hand if someone doesn't.

14-06-2016 07:59PM

I find it really tricky to navigate, presumably because I'm a chump that has had office admin roles and a generic business degree. I don't feel as open to negotiation as some of you people in high-demand IT roles.

When you ask about salary ranges upfront, how soon do you bring this up? When making enquiries? The interview stage? Would you just ask for a general range of salary, or specifics? Curious to see how other people deal with these things.

Irish_Elect_Eng · 14-06-2016 09:01PM

intheclouds wrote: »

Sorry Orinoco - you are of course entitled to your opinion but I really think you are incorrect here..

While Your experience differs from Orinoco's and is valid, his advice and comments are spot on. There are many reasons why organisations and indeed candidates steer away from naming a figure or even a range up front. Especially for senior roles.

But most often it is simply good practice from a negotiation standpoint.

In my experience, putting a figure on it also filters out potential good candidates, some experienced candidates if the figure is too low and some inexperienced candidates if the figure is too high. I work in an organisation where the $ range can be very flexible for the right candidate, if the role interests them and they are the right person.

Esse85 · 14-06-2016 09:02PM

Happened me recently in an interview, I was asked my salary expectations, I quoted what I was on in my last role, this was a similar type sales role with a well known brand.

They were offering 25% off the market rate, I said I couldn't afford to take a drop in salary. They waffled on then about quick progression within the company etc.

Had I of known from the start what the salary range was I'd not of bothered wasting my time and money in preparing for the interview. If I'm offered the role I'll decline, which in turn will have wasted the interviewers time.

Had a "range" depending on experience been advertised on the the job spec then it would be much more time effective for everybody.

I will now be much more hesitant about attending an interview without a decent idea of what's on offer. Attending an interview in Dublin for me is costly as it means a days annual leave, time spent prepping for the interview, 5 hour return journey by car, fuel, tolls and parking. I'm sure this is the same for a lot of people therefore employers should be more appreciate of this.

intheclouds · 14-06-2016 10:09PM

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

While Your experience differs from Orinoco's and is valid, his advice and comments are spot on. There are many reasons why organisations and indeed candidates steer away from naming a figure or even a range up front. Especially for senior roles.

But most often it is simply good practice from a negotiation standpoint.

In my experience, putting a figure on it also filters out potential good candidates, some experienced candidates if the figure is too low and some inexperienced candidates if the figure is too high. I work in an organisation where the $ range can be very flexible for the right candidate, if the role interests them and they are the right person.

I don't expect a solid figure, I expect a range.

You can't agree that someone who expects and is currently working for 6 figures is going to be happy to waste multiple interviews only to find out that 30k is on offer? That's just unprofessional. There is going to be some base level that I simply cannot go below.

A lot of that kind of nonsense started going on in the recession.

I find it a useful filter tbh, if a company can't be upfront about salary quickly at early interview stage, I know it's not a place I'd want to work. I'm not interested in playing games about money and have never had the need to professionally. Maybe it works for some, not for me.

Irish_Elect_Eng · 14-06-2016 11:31PM

intheclouds wrote: »

I don't expect a solid figure, I expect a range.

You can't agree that someone who expects and is currently working for 6 figures is going to be happy to waste multiple interviews only to find out that 30k is on offer? That's just unprofessional. There is going to be some base level that I simply cannot go below.

A lot of that kind of nonsense started going on in the recession.

I find it a useful filter tbh, if a company can't be upfront about salary quickly at early interview stage, I know it's not a place I'd want to work. I'm not interested in playing games about money and have never had the need to professionally. Maybe it works for some, not for me.

There is a difference between not including a salary figure/range with the job posting and not providing it when asked. I accept that it is more than reasonable to provide a range DOE, etc. when asked by a candidate.

Your example however is not very realistic in most industries.
(I am not familiar with the IT contracting sector.)

intheclouds · 15-06-2016 07:54AM

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

There is a difference between not including a salary figure/range with the job posting and not providing it when asked. I accept that it is more than reasonable to provide a range DOE, etc. when asked by a candidate.

Your example however is not very realistic in most industries.
(I am not familiar with the IT contracting sector.)

My example actually happened to my husband. Not IT.

15-06-2016 12:19PM

intheclouds wrote: »

I don't expect a solid figure, I expect a range.

You can't agree that someone who expects and is currently working for 6 figures is going to be happy to waste multiple interviews only to find out that 30k is on offer? That's just unprofessional. There is going to be some base level that I simply cannot go below.

A lot of that kind of nonsense started going on in the recession.

I find it a useful filter tbh, if a company can't be upfront about salary quickly at early interview stage, I know it's not a place I'd want to work. I'm not interested in playing games about money and have never had the need to professionally. Maybe it works for some, not for me.

You have to admit it's a pretty bonkers situation for someone expecting six figures to be offered 30K after multiple interviews. I mean, something is very badly wrong somewhere there, and it is a very unusual circumstance. For one, the recruiting company should, if they have ANY sense, have taken one look at the CV and realised this wasn't the right person for the role. And how can you spend multiple interviews at a six figure level to be offered 30K? I am not saying it cannot happen, but it's surely an outlier.

BTW I do agree that if you do ask the direct question about salary, and you get no answer or something seriously evasive, then that would probably be a bad sign.

If someone asked me that question directly I would not say a number, but I would immediately ask what they are currently earning and if they are in budget and I liked them I would say something along the lines of 'we'll discuss it when the time comes but I am confident it won't be an issue'.

Saipanne · 15-06-2016 12:22PM

It's ridiculous how salary is such a taboo subject here. I get email offers from both Ireland and abroad, and anytime I get a foreign email, it comes with the salary included.

It's time we caught up.

Is dodging the salary question a common thing here?

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