Why must you pay property tax if you were taxed on the money earned to buy the house?

armabelle · 13-06-2016 09:35AM #1

Can someone please help me understand this?

thank you

CIARAN_BOYLE · 13-06-2016 09:42AM

armabelle wrote: »

Can someone please help me understand this?

thank you

why must you pay vat on purchaees if you were taxed on the money earned to buy stuff.

We have multiple layers of taxation in this country.

armabelle · 13-06-2016 09:43AM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

why must you pay vat on purchaees if you were taxed on the money earned to buy stuff.

We have multiple layers of taxation in this country.

Well yes if both those questions really do fall under the same category then why? Why are there multiple layers? Are there only those two layers or are you taxed in more layers?

I purchased a used bicycle and never paid tax on that so a house is also "used". Why should you have to pay tax on it?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 13-06-2016 09:49AM

armabelle wrote: »

Well yes if both those questions really do fall under the same category then why? Why are there multiple layers? Are there only those two layers or are you taxed in more layers?

There are multiple layers to prevent disincentivising work with an outright 70% tax rate.

Also because property tax (stamp duty/ property taxes) was much easier to enforce before record keeping electronic bank records etc. It was a fraud prevention tool.

At the moment the idea seems to be that you should be taxed on your income, your expenses (vat) and your assets.

As to layers of tax your employer may vat on what they sell to make money, they you pay it on what they pay you, you pay vat when you buy something. Everything you buy is more expensive because the workers who made it are paying taxes as part of their wage.

Michael D Not Higgins · 13-06-2016 09:49AM

The idea of a tax system is to be as broad as possible to be as fair as possible. If you tax a small level on lots of things you get more tax from higher consumers. If you were to concentrate tax into just income tax then you'd hurt the economy via various mechanisms that are outside the scope of this forum.

The real answer to your question is "because we need tax income to run the country".

Speedwell · 13-06-2016 09:50AM

Your heirs also pay inheritance tax on the property that you paid tax on when you purchased it and property tax on when you owned it, and if they keep it, they will continue to pay property tax and perhaps even capital gains tax on it. If you're asking why you must do this, the answer is currently, "because that is how the tax system is set up". If you're asking whether this is legitimate, the answer is, "if you live in a society, you are expected to follow the laws".

If you don't like the laws, you are entitled to say so and seek to change them. Many people would agree with you. Many would go further and say taxation itself is illegitimate. Some of us have outgrown our naive and selfish libertarian babyhood and understand taxation is the way a good society necessarily funds itself as equitably as possible. Most of us can see ways in which they think the system would work better and more fairly, and discussions to that effect are good things.

dr.fuzzenstein · 13-06-2016 09:52AM

You pay tax on the money you earn, you then pay VAT on everything you buy and VRT and stamp duty on your car and house. All the money you spend, the guy who gets it pays tax on that. Whatever little money you have left you then get to invest and get absolutely sh*tty return from the bank with the excuse of "interest is really low!" (of course that doesn't stop them from gouging you for your mortgage) and whatever little you get is then taxed via DIRT. The few scraps you manage to put into a pension will mostly go to finance sharks and the rest will be stolen by the state.
So you get done up the tailpipe every step of the way and sometimes you pay tax on your tax (VAT on VRT anyone?). The only way to avoid it is to become a career criminal and only deal in drugs and cash, but the retirement plan (end up in jail or with a bullet in the head) is less than appealing, though the coke and hookers lifestyle will somehow make up for that.
Anyone else having a good Monday?

Speedwell · 13-06-2016 09:53AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Anyone else having a good Monday?

Brill.

Hope your day and mine go a bit better

armabelle · 13-06-2016 09:56AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You pay tax on the money you earn, you then pay VAT on everything you buy and VRT and stamp duty on your car and house. All the money you spend, the guy who gets it pays tax on that. Whatever little money you have left you then get to invest and get absolutely sh*tty return from the bank with the excuse of "interest is really low!" (of course that doesn't stop them from gouging you for your mortgage) and whatever little you get is then taxed via DIRT. The few scraps you manage to put into a pension will mostly go to finance sharks and the rest will be stolen by the state.
So you get done up the tailpipe every step of the way and sometimes you pay tax on your tax (VAT on VRT anyone?). The only way to avoid it is to become a career criminal and only deal in drugs and cash, but the retirement plan (end up in jail or with a bullet in the head) is less than appealing, though the coke and hookers lifestyle will somehow make up for that.
Anyone else having a good Monday?

well you know you can't blame criminals for choosing that path.... I mean if it really is between that and the tailpipe...I dont know.

drugs and bullet in the head maybe but you know a lot of criminals are probably just business people with families who dont want to get shafted by the state. Who can blame them really?

armabelle · 13-06-2016 09:58AM

Speedwell wrote: »

Your heirs also pay inheritance tax on the property that you paid tax on when you purchased it and property tax on when you owned it, and if they keep it, they will continue to pay property tax and perhaps even capital gains tax on it. If you're asking why you must do this, the answer is currently, "because that is how the tax system is set up". If you're asking whether this is legitimate, the answer is, "if you live in a society, you are expected to follow the laws".

If you don't like the laws, you are entitled to say so and seek to change them. Many people would agree with you. Many would go further and say taxation itself is illegitimate. Some of us have outgrown our naive and selfish libertarian babyhood and understand taxation is the way a good society necessarily funds itself as equitably as possible. Most of us can see ways in which they think the system would work better and more fairly, and discussions to that effect are good things.

How much would inheritance tax be for them?

Seems the more you have the more you lose in life nowadays, I can't see how people are supposed to be incentivized to be successful if you are constantly losing out every step of the way

CIARAN_BOYLE · 13-06-2016 10:01AM

armabelle wrote: »

How much would inheritance tax be for them?

Seems the more you have the more you lose in life nowadays, I can't see how people are supposed to be incentivized to be successful if you are constantly losing out every step of the way

inheritance tax is also called gift tax or officially capital acquisitions tax and is 33% but there is a number of reliefs and exemptions.

armabelle · 13-06-2016 10:04AM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

inheritance tax is also called gift tax or officially capital acquisitions tax and is 33% but there is a number of reliefs and exemptions.

jesus 33%! So you work all your life to buy a house for my kids so they have to pay back 33% of it when they inherit it? Surely that can't be right?

Do you by any chance know what kind of reliefs / exemptions there are?

Michael D Not Higgins · 13-06-2016 10:07AM

armabelle wrote: »

jesus 33%! So you work all your life to buy a house for my kids so they have to pay back 33% of it when they inherit it? Surely that can't be right?

Do you by any chance know what kind of reliefs / exemptions there are?

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/cat/thresholds.html

Here are the thresholds.

regi3457 · 13-06-2016 10:12AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You pay tax on the money you earn, you then pay VAT on everything you buy and VRT and stamp duty on your car and house. All the money you spend, the guy who gets it pays tax on that. Whatever little money you have left you then get to invest and get absolutely sh*tty return from the bank with the excuse of "interest is really low!" (of course that doesn't stop them from gouging you for your mortgage) and whatever little you get is then taxed via DIRT. The few scraps you manage to put into a pension will mostly go to finance sharks and the rest will be stolen by the state.
So you get done up the tailpipe every step of the way and sometimes you pay tax on your tax (VAT on VRT anyone?). The only way to avoid it is to become a career criminal and only deal in drugs and cash, but the retirement plan (end up in jail or with a bullet in the head) is less than appealing, though the coke and hookers lifestyle will somehow make up for that.
Anyone else having a good Monday?

nowadays a real criminal is the one who actually works within the law not outside of it

dr.fuzzenstein · 13-06-2016 10:22AM

regi3457 wrote: »

nowadays a real criminal is the one who actually works within the law not outside of it

I always thought that being outside the law was the definition of criminal.

Wanderer78 · 13-06-2016 10:25AM

Our tax regime is a mess. We have to some how start making large multinationals pay more tax, some sort of financial transaction tax is required as well. The worker is getting hammered here

CIARAN_BOYLE · 13-06-2016 10:26AM

armabelle wrote: »

jesus 33%! So you work all your life to buy a house for my kids so they have to pay back 33% of it when they inherit it? Surely that can't be right?

Do you by any chance know what kind of reliefs / exemptions there are?

yep, ask me tomorrow as I will have my tax notes with me for study. Ive audit with me today.

Exams on tax next week lol, mainly on cat/cgt reliefs.

First of all there is a threshold so you can get a certain amount over your lifetime in gifts tax free (look up cat threshold for details).

Main relief is dwelling house exemption
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/cat/leaflets/cat10.html

regi3457 · 13-06-2016 10:26AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I always thought that being outside the law was the definition of criminal.

yes, but certain organizations / people work within the law to defraud average people

regi3457 · 13-06-2016 10:27AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Our tax regime is a mess. We have to some how start making large multinationals pay more tax, some sort of financial transaction tax is required as well. The worker is getting hammered here

maybe that is the idea?

Wanderer78 · 13-06-2016 10:35AM

regi3457 wrote:

maybe that is the idea?

Oh don't worry I know it is. It's disgusting and is wrecking this planet

relax carry on · 13-06-2016 10:36AM

regi3457 wrote: »

yes, but certain organizations / people work within the law to defraud average people

What organisations deliberately set out to defraud people? Also individuals deliberately setting out to defraud people are committing an offence, have you informed the relevant authorities?

hidden shallows · 13-06-2016 10:39AM

The main reason is so that we as a society can keep the PJ-wearing brigade, who've chosen not to work, in the lifestyle they've become accustomed to.

MarkAnthony · 13-06-2016 10:43AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Our tax regime is a mess. We have to some how start making large multinationals pay more tax, some sort of financial transaction tax is required as well. The worker is getting hammered here

The only reason we have workers is because of the tax incentives for companies to come here. Contrary to the indoctrination in the Irish education system, we don't have world class education.

As for tax OP you could do half a dozen PhDs on the subject. Suffice it to say it's a wealth distribution policy in many respects. Some theorists suggest that all taxation if theft but imagine living in a world without it. No police force, ghettos and shantytowns with the 'rich' having to live in compounds with the risk of being murdered whenever they step out. Granted that's the extreme end of the spectrum, but Ireland is hardly an egalitarian society.

It's worth having a google of John Rawls' original position, it's the approach I take.

Wanderer78 · 13-06-2016 10:44AM

hidden shallows wrote:

The main reason is so that we as a society can keep the PJ-wearing brigade, who've chosen not to work, in the lifestyle they've become accustomed to.

The problem isn't with the lower tiers of our social structure but in fact with the higher tiers and more so with the financial sector. The 'pj brigade' actually have a lot of complicated issues that need addressing

Pro Hoc Vice · 13-06-2016 10:46AM

armabelle wrote: »

Can someone please help me understand this?

thank you

I earn money and pay tax if I use that to buy a car I pay VRT and VAT, if I buy a TV I pay VAT my electricity is charged plus VAT my petrol is plus a number of taxes. I am not aware of any rule that says a person can't pay multiple taxes.

Sh1tbag OToole · 13-06-2016 10:49AM

Because Europe wants us to pay property tax.

It's a load of b0ll1x but this tax was foisted upon us by Europe and our TD's went along with it. The reason for it I suspect was that during the bailout some EUrocrat stood up and said "Look at those feckers! They don't even pay property tax, let them agree to bring that in first, then we'll talk" or else it's all part of a much deeper tax harmonisation conspiracy part of the great European Project to make the EU one big country.

dr.fuzzenstein · 13-06-2016 10:50AM

relax carry on wrote: »

What organisations deliberately set out to defraud people? Also individuals deliberately setting out to defraud people are committing an offence, have you informed the relevant authorities?

I think it's more the collusion of the state, big industry, the legal profession and regulatory authorities to deliberately skew the tax burden in favour of large, global corporations (who seem to pay little or no tax and certainly not as much as the rest of us) and very much not in favour of the average tax payer who gets burdened with ever more and higher taxes and charges (and what's left will be hoovered up by medical sector when you pay them €3k a month to be neglected in a nursing home) because the industry has the power and the lobby and the average Shmoe, well, doesn't.
One theory is that this is done to ensure that anything an individual or couple make over their lifetime will be hoovered up by the state and not get passed on to their children. That way you are ensured that the next generation are also wage-slaves who can be exploited via ever sh*ttier conditions with worse and worse paying yellow-pack jobs or zero hour contracts with absolutely no security whatsoever.

Pro Hoc Vice · 13-06-2016 10:51AM

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Because Europe wants us to pay property tax.

It's a load of b0ll1x but this tax was foisted upon us by Europe and our TD's went along with it. The reason for it I suspect was that during the bailout some EUrocrat stood up and said "Look at those feckers! They don't even pay property tax, let them agree to bring that in first, then we'll talk" or else it's all part of a much deeper tax harmonisation conspiracy part of the great European Project to make the EU one big country.

Can you link to the EU legislation imposing property tax.

Sh1tbag OToole · 13-06-2016 10:54AM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I earn money and pay tax if I use that to buy a car I pay VRT and VAT, if I buy a TV I pay VAT my electricity is charged plus VAT my petrol is plus a number of taxes. I am not aware of any rule that says a person can't pay multiple taxes.

And when ya buy a beer you pay VAT, Excise, VAT on the Excise, Tax on the VAT, Exise on the VAT, Tax on the full amount, Tax on the Tax, VAT on the VAT, then the barman needs to make a few bob who pays PRSI, PAYE, Property tax, TV license, motor tax, USC and all the above when he buys a drink for himself.

Wanderer78 · 13-06-2016 10:56AM

MarkAnthony wrote:

The only reason we have workers is because of the tax incentives for companies to come here. Contrary to the indoctrination in the Irish education system, we don't have world class education.

I personally believe large corporations are parasitic just like the financial sector. They aren't truly helping society at all. The tax burden has been largely placed on the shoulders of the workforce while wealth is accumulating at the very high tiers of our social and financial systems. This is completely unsustainable, the only problem is, nobody really knows what to do about it. It's credible that if we start taxing these industries more, that they'll leave. We probably have to approach this globally but that will probably be impossible. This will not be an easy task, but I do think it must be tackled immediately. The work force is being squeezed through taxation and debt. Completely unsustainable

Sh1tbag OToole · 13-06-2016 10:56AM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Can you link to the EU legislation imposing property tax.

It isn't legislation, part of the bailout deal

Why must you pay property tax if you were taxed on the money earned to buy the house?

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