Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

Two Tone · 12-06-2016 01:19AM

I am actually making an effort not to use emotive language - and not to use angry language following the sight of someone saying victims of that monster Savile are partially to blame for his abusing to continue. Saying it is shameful to say such a thing is just an opinion in response.
An excuse and an explanation can be different things. I certainly think she should have come forward years and years ago too - I think anyone would prefer this, nobody is going to like the idea of the Cairns family stuck in an unbearable limbo for all that time, but I can understand her not coming forward if she was terrorised into not doing so. I think it is possible other dangerous people were protecting Cooke, hence no coming forward by her (and maybe others knew also) while he was incarcerated - I am basing this on what I have read, as well as the statement that she showed huge bravery, and the arson attack and alleged republican connection.

Bebopclown wrote: »

Looks like Eamon Cooke was into young girls. If this is true, I wonder why he went after a boy.

I guess it can be the case for someone to have various sexual preferences - healthy and unhealthy. He fathered 11 children so he was seemingly into women too (or was perhaps keeping up appearances, but fathering 11 children is some going).

Ew, reading about him - the degeneracy would make you physically sick.

Means Of Escape · 12-06-2016 01:22AM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

At first I felt this woman should be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice and that she had to have been more involved than has been said. There just seemed no excuse to let keep this information to herself all those years.

However after listening to Paul William's on the radio this morning I have revised my opinion. He described Cooke as something as bad, if not worse, than Saville. A person who groomed and manipulated everyone around him.

He said that he heard from Cooke while he was on the run before his imprisonment. He received a letter from 11 year old girl,one of his victims, begging him to help Cooke. He said the nature of the letters from her were extremely shocking, very sordid, not the sort of thing a child would know about or be able to write ordinarily.She was so manipulated that she didn't even know she wasn't just speaking her own mind in the letters. The influence he exerted was so great that the guards had to arrange for this 11 year old to leave this country for good as it was the only way to get her out of his psychological grip. When he met Paul Williams he told him this child was begging him to run away with her to london, was convinced his victims fancied and desired him and he was helping them out so to speak by abusing them. He said that pattern of extreme manipulation was seen throughout his catalogue of abuse.

I felt it was heavily insinuated on the radio this morning that this woman was a child and a victim when she witnessed what happened to Philip. If that is true and against a backdrop of intense psychological and sexual abuse it's plausible she was just too scared to tell even in adulthood. Maybe it required her revealing her own abuse in order to do so. There are a lot of reason it might have been awfully difficult for her.

I just don't buy that .

Two Tone · 12-06-2016 01:25AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

They sent in a solicitor and a priest to get Cooke to give more info rather than using a set of pliers .
Woman needs to be jailed for withholding information.
She saw countless appeals for information and did nothing .
Convenient now to purge her own guilt when Cooke was at deaths door .

Father died without knowing what happened to his son
Unforgivable .

Or because he could no longer hurt her. I cannot understand why the default response of some is that she was just being a horrible person rather than that she may have been one of his numerous victims, who possibly wanted to tell the world the truth but was too beaten down (the more likely scenario).
There would have been so much more going on behind the scenes all these years - maybe numerous people knew he did it (if he did). Another poster from the neighbourhood has posted on this thread that the rumours flying around were that people did know, including Philip's family but there was not enough evidence to arrest him.

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

At first I felt this woman should be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice and that she had to have been more involved than has been said. There just seemed no excuse to let keep this information to herself all those years.

However after listening to Paul William's on the radio this morning I have revised my opinion.

Fair play to you - I suspect others have too but won't admit it.

_Whimsical_ · 12-06-2016 01:26AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

I just don't buy that .

On what basis?
The fact that the 11 year old child had to leave the country will be a matter of public record somewhere. He couldn't just make it up.

Paul Williams also said he had spoken to several male victims of this man, he definitely did not exclusively abuse girls

Another point he made,and made me think the woman was a child at the time was that Philips was likely to have been disarmed by a man with a child pulling beside him on a road way and might have been more likely to get in the car or accept a lift. It would also explain why no witnesses came forward despite it having been a busy road. If you saw a car with an adult and child pull up next to a child on a busy road you'd be less likely to take note of it and more likely to imagine the situation was innocent, even more likely to dismiss it in the light of a garda appeal and not think of going of reporting it at all.

Two Tone · 12-06-2016 01:29AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

I just don't buy that .

What don't you buy? It is an extremely plausible theory.

It's as if people --want-- her to have been just a selfish, callous wagon with no other reasons for her lack of coming forward, so that there is a person to blame now that Cooke is dead.

I do not wish to insult people but this diversion of blame from the abuser, and the fear he created on top of the actual abuse itself, is appalling.

Fsfop · 12-06-2016 01:33AM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

At first I felt this woman should be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice and that she had to have been more involved than has been said. There just seemed no excuse to let keep this information to herself all those years.

However after listening to Paul William's on the radio this morning I have revised my opinion. He described Cooke as something as bad, if not worse, than Saville. A person who groomed and manipulated everyone around him.

He said that he heard from Cooke while he was on the run before his imprisonment. He received a letter from 11 year old girl,one of his victims, begging him to help Cooke. He said the nature of the letters from her were extremely shocking, very sordid, not the sort of thing a child would know about or be able to write ordinarily.She was so manipulated that she didn't even know she wasn't just speaking her own mind in the letters. The influence he exerted was so great that the guards had to arrange for this 11 year old to leave this country for good as it was the only way to get her out of his psychological grip. When he met Paul Williams he told him this child was begging him to run away with her to london, was convinced his victims fancied and desired him and he was helping them out so to speak by abusing them. He said that pattern of extreme manipulation was seen throughout his catalogue of abuse.

I felt it was heavily insinuated on the radio this morning that this woman was a child and a victim when she witnessed what happened to Philip. If that is true and against a backdrop of intense psychological and sexual abuse it's plausible she was just too scared to tell even in adulthood. Maybe it required her revealing her own abuse in order to do so. There are a lot of reason it might have been awfully difficult for her.

Good post and makes the most sense

Means Of Escape · 12-06-2016 01:44AM

Two Tone wrote: »

What don't you buy? It is an extremely plausible theory.

It's as if people --want-- her to have been just a selfish, callous wagon with no other reasons for her lack of coming forward, so that there is a person to blame now that Cooke is dead.

I do not wish to insult people but this diversion of blame from the abuser, and the fear he created on top of the actual abuse itself, is appalling.

30 YEARS silence
This revelation could have even been done in 2009 when he was behind bars if it was out of fear and he would have stayed there .
No one is diverting blame. He is as guilty as sin but she could have copper fastened that guilt by coming forward sooner and put the Cairns family out of their misery .

Samaris · 12-06-2016 01:59AM

Thanks for that, Whimsical, interesting read - I missed the radio program.

Edit: It also appears she came forward in at least 2011, and perhaps some point in the '90s. 2011 is only two years after he was imprisoned. She came forward (again?) at least a month before his death.

Two Tone · 12-06-2016 02:02AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

30 YEARS silence
This revelation could have even been done in 2009 when he was behind bars if it was out of fear and he would have stayed there .
No one is diverting blame. He is as guilty as sin but she could have copper fastened that guilt by coming forward sooner and put the Cairns family out of their misery .

You are not diverting blame, but others are - some even saying she is as bad... she would have had to kill a child to be as bad. It's scapegoating.

It has been suggested on this thread by someone from the same community that various people know more than the general public do (but it could not be pinned on him) rather than it being a case of just the perpetrator and this woman knowing but absolutely nobody else knowing for almost 30 years. This seems realistic I think (although obviously I don't know for sure). Reports give the impression that he was being protected by dangerous people, hence maybe why there was no coming forward while he was inside either. He is the worst person in all of this obviously, but if there were powerful people who kept quiet and could have done something and aided and abetted him, they are a close second. Someone powerless who was terrorised by him and his associates would not have anywhere near the same level of responsibility.

I, like anyone, would prefer if she had come forward years and years ago, but the question as to why she did not come forward needs to be answered before an assessment can be made. If she was someone who was involved, she deserves prison. If she was an abuse victim of his in 1986 and intimidated by him and others in the years after (remember: he was convicted of an arson attack in 2003 against one of the complainants) there is no way that is the same thing.

wokingvoter · 12-06-2016 02:44AM

Strange how people's brains work.
As soon as I read this story I assumed that the woman was a past victim of this monster, so afraid of him, even while he was in prison, even on his deathbed, so manipulated and well groomed, by him, that she could not bring herself to tell what she knew until she was sure he could not hurt her or any of her family.
Don't forget he tried to burn to death the family of one of his victims in an arson attack
I was going to say she deserved a medal for her courage
I hope your all very very proud of yourselves

Two Tone · 12-06-2016 02:57AM

wokingvoter wrote: »

Strange how people's brains work.
As soon as I read this story I assumed that the woman was a past victim of this monster, so afraid of him, even while he was in prison, even on his deathbed, so manipulated and well groomed, by him, that she could not bring herself to tell what she knew until she was sure he could not hurt her or any of her family.
Don't forget he tried to burn to death the family of one of his victims in an arson attack
I was going to say she deserved a medal for her courage
I hope your all very very proud of yourselves

It is truly bleak. Not as bleak as the abuse obviously, but still an ugly side to people - "Let's have an auld scapegoat for ourselves!"
To keep an open mind, I am considering the possibility that she was not abused and was involved in the degenerate's campaign, and that she had the power to do something... but seeing as the Garda stated she showed huge bravery in coming forward... nah.

I don't understand what is so unlikely about her fainting too - seeing a child battered to death... yeah that could do it. It's like a case of "Nope, don't be bringing plausible reasons for her silence into this witch-hunt - we have a scapegoating to do!"

wokingvoter · 12-06-2016 03:17AM

An article in today's Sindo makes it clear that it's highly likely that the woman who came forward is indeed a very traumatised former victim of Cookes
But you certainly won't get any of the pitchforkers here to return and modify their calls for her to be punished

end of the road · 12-06-2016 03:19AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Woman needs to be jailed for withholding information.
She saw countless appeals for information and did nothing .
Convenient now to purge her own guilt when Cooke was at deaths door .

Father died without knowing what happened to his son
Unforgivable .

no she shouldn't. complete nonsense. thankfully we don't jail people just "because rant" in ireland

Two Tone · 12-06-2016 03:22AM

wokingvoter wrote: »

An article in today's Sindo makes it clear that it's highly likely that the woman who came forward is indeed a very traumatised former victim of Cookes
But you certainly won't get any of the pitchforkers here to return and modify their calls for her to be punished

One person said actual victims of Jimmy Savile are to blame for him continuing to abuse, due to not coming forward. I don't think they really believe such a sick thing though, rather that it's one of those situations of gripping so steadfastly to an argument, even saying ****ed up stuff is resorted to to support it.

Means Of Escape · 12-06-2016 08:02AM

wokingvoter wrote: »

Strange how people's brains work.
As soon as I read this story I assumed that the woman was a past victim of this monster, so afraid of him, even while he was in prison, even on his deathbed, so manipulated and well groomed, by him, that she could not bring herself to tell what she knew until she was sure he could not hurt her or any of her family.
Don't forget he tried to burn to death the family of one of his victims in an arson attack
I was going to say she deserved a medal for her courage
I hope your all very very proud of yourselves[/quote

Too little too late

Ally Dick · 12-06-2016 08:06AM

The gardai are launching an urgent DNA test of the bag.....starting on Monday

Means Of Escape · 12-06-2016 08:10AM

Ally Dick wrote: »

The gardai are launching an urgent DNA test of the bag.....starting on Monday

First thing or after lunch ?

Ally Dick · 12-06-2016 08:12AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

First thing or after lunch ?

Doughnuts first. DNA second

anewme · 12-06-2016 08:22AM

wokingvoter wrote: »

Strange how people's brains work.
As soon as I read this story I assumed that the woman was a past victim of this monster, so afraid of him, even while he was in prison, even on his deathbed, so manipulated and well groomed, by him, that she could not bring herself to tell what she knew until she was sure he could not hurt her or any of her family.
Don't forget he tried to burn to death the family of one of his victims in an arson attack
I was going to say she deserved a medal for her courage
I hope your all very very proud of yourselves

I thought that way too, certainly that she was involved as a victim possibly a child and maybe even involved in the previous cases.

I also believe, like Saville that this was just the tip of the iceberg and that now seems to be the case too.

Therefore, it was a bit surprising to find a thread opened called Stupid B**** and a comment "disgusting excuse for a human being" thanked by 104 people despite the fact the Gardai were commenting on the witness showing incredible courage.

When you hear it first, you think, how could someone not come forward, but you are thinking of them as an Adult or another person involved rather than, actually this could have been a child also. I would hope these people were thinking that way initially rather than the majority of people wanting a possible victim prosecuted.

I know a person who worked as a DJ on Radio Dublin in the 70's and early 80's and he's come out to make a statement that he's shocked at gutted over this and what happened recently. I also know a lot of children who "worked" at the Station making coffee, answering phones (thinking they were important as kids do). All had a great experience, but none interacted directly with Cooke. At that time, anyone connected with Radio Dublin would have been a real local celebrity. Pirate Radio was a big thing.

It also looks like people severely under estimated the depravity of Cooke and how dangerous, powerful and connected he was at the time. The kind of guy who sets fire to witnesses homes, you've seen him murder a child, you'd want to think carefully before reporting him, for your own and your families safety.

I hope the people here judging the witness initially might also have now revised their opinion and put their pitch fork back in the shed.

strandroad · 12-06-2016 08:27AM

It is understood the woman was aged around nine at the time and lived in terror of Cooke, who was known as "Cookie Monster" to his victims. That was why she kept the dark secret for nearly 30 years. The witness, who gave gardai a statement on May 10, was so afraid of Cooke that she once fainted at the mention of his name.

Cooke instilled terror in his victims and warned them of the consequences of telling anyone what he was doing. He also convinced them that they would not be believed. He once launched an arson attack on the home of a witness who reported his crimes.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/secret-of-philips-lost-bag-revealed-34792983.html

notsoyoungwan · 12-06-2016 08:37AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

30 YEARS silence
This revelation could have even been done in 2009 when he was behind bars if it was out of fear and he would have stayed there.

Yeah. Cos people never get released early from sentences for 'good behaviour' and sentences never run concurrently and all prosecutions taken always result in convictions and sentences are never unduly lenient. There is no guarantee whatsoever that if she'd come forward with info years ago when he was first imprisoned that there would have been enough to take a prosecution and convict him, and if that did happen, who knows what sentence he'd have received. At most, I'd imagine it would be a manslaughter conviction rather than murder, and they can carry quite short sentences. So she would not have had the 'security' of knowing that she would be safe from him if she gave the information.

Really, I wonder how sheltered are some of those who are calling for blood here, can they not see it from this woman's point of view at all.

wokingvoter · 12-06-2016 08:44AM

Two Tone wrote: »

One person said actual victims of Jimmy Savile are to blame for him continuing to abuse, due to not coming forward. I don't think they really believe such a sick thing though, rather that it's one of those situations of gripping so steadfastly to an argument, even saying ****ed up stuff is resorted to to support it.

No . That poster was challenged on that and was quite clear that the victims should be prosecuted for not speaking out.
The level of ignorance of, and indifference to, the human condition displayed in some posts on this thread is terrifying.

wokingvoter · 12-06-2016 08:47AM

notsoyoungwan wrote: »

Yeah. Cos people never get released early from sentences for 'good behaviour' and sentences never run concurrently and all prosecutions taken always result in convictions and sentences are never unduly lenient. There is no guarantee whatsoever that if she'd come forward with info years ago when he was first imprisoned that there would have been enough to take a prosecution and convict him, and if that did happen, who knows what sentence he'd have received. At most, I'd imagine it would be a manslaughter conviction rather than murder, and they can carry quite short sentences. So she would not have had the 'security' of knowing that she would be safe from him if she gave the information.

Really, I wonder how sheltered are some of those who are calling for blood here, can they not see it from this woman's point of view at all.

Indeed, he was in fact released early , I think due to bad health.
Don't forget, he had been found guilty of arson after he tried to burn to death the family of one of his victims, in revenge for reporting him.

wokingvoter · 12-06-2016 08:50AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

wokingvoter wrote: »

Strange how people's brains work.
As soon as I read this story I assumed that the woman was a past victim of this monster, so afraid of him, even while he was in prison, even on his deathbed, so manipulated and well groomed, by him, that she could not bring herself to tell what she knew until she was sure he could not hurt her or any of her family.
Don't forget he tried to burn to death the family of one of his victims in an arson attack
I was going to say she deserved a medal for her courage
I hope your all very very proud of yourselves[/quote

Too little too late

What is too little too late?

Means Of Escape · 12-06-2016 09:08AM

notsoyoungwan wrote: »

Yeah. Cos people never get released early from sentences for 'good behaviour' and sentences never run concurrently and all prosecutions taken always result in convictions and sentences are never unduly lenient. There is no guarantee whatsoever that if she'd come forward with info years ago when he was first imprisoned that there would have been enough to take a prosecution and convict him, and if that did happen, who knows what sentence he'd have received. At most, I'd imagine it would be a manslaughter conviction rather than murder, and they can carry quite short sentences. So she would not have had the 'security' of knowing that she would be safe from him if she gave the information.

Really, I wonder how sheltered are some of those who are calling for blood here, can they not see it from this womhan's point of view at all.

Tell that to Alice Cairns

Galwayguy35 · 12-06-2016 09:13AM

Like a few other people on the thread who would have been in or around the same age as Philip at the time I remember this well when it first happened and I often thought about it over the years.

I'm about as far removed from a leftie bleeding heart as one can be but I won't condemn a possible abuse victim who comes forward with information even if it's 30 years later because I've no idea thankfully what's it's like to be in that situation and how that person might be feeling.

Although if it turns out that that miserable waste of air was responsible for Philips death then to go to his grave without telling where he buried the body so the family can have some closure was unforgivable.

wokingvoter · 12-06-2016 09:14AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Tell that to Alice Cairns

So what your saying is that you have sympathy for one victim of Cooke, Alice Cairns, but no sympathy for another victim of Cooke, this woman who has come forward.
Can you explain that?

notsoyoungwan · 12-06-2016 09:42AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Tell that to Alice Cairns

Alice, one of the greatest victims of Cooke, has maintained a dignified silence since since these latest revelations. Some of the Lynch mob on here would do well to reflect on that.

Means Of Escape · 12-06-2016 09:46AM

wokingvoter wrote: »

So what your saying is that you have sympathy for one victim of Cooke, Alice Cairns, but no sympathy for another victim of Cooke, this woman who has come forward.
Can you explain that?

I have a far greater sympathy for the Cairns family .

wokingvoter · 12-06-2016 09:48AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

I have a far greater sympathy for the Cairns family .

Yes you've said that and made that clear.
But why?
I get that the Cairns family have suffered horrendously, and are deserving of every last drop.
But why do you say that this woman, apparently a victim who has also suffered horrendously for 30+ is not worthy of any sympathy

Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

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