Boards.ie ISP? Our travels in Telcoland...

DeVore

Full Disclosure.

As I've said before on these boards, I believe in full disclosure about hidden, pertinent interests.

Well , here's our good and bad news.


In the last few weeks the admins at boards have been investigating the possibility of offering the proper broadband solution that we all know we need and that we all know WILL sell if the political/technical will is there.

We want to offer a product like this:

Low (20: 1 max) contention ratio roughly
512K minimum, preferably more.
Uncapped.
Less then 50 Euro inc vat
No (or very low) interleaving.
Latency sensitive (ie: Latency/Routing would be one of key quality indicators.)
Community supported through no-frills support.


We believe its possible and with that in mind we threw ourselves into the task of sourcing what we wanted. Its not a pretty story.

I feel obliged to tell you that I am writing this under a 2Million Euro NDA which I have to adhere to. I can only explain details that are already in the public domain. I dont have 2Million Euro and I dont fancy jail so if some things seem a bit hazy, please bear with me.


FRIACO: Initially we felt friaco might be an option. Its not. Its a sick twisted joke. To cover Ireland you need to spend 15,000 roughly in each exchange and there are 48 exchanges. You have to backhaul the data yourself or buy that service from a big telco. Cost of entry to the market is €Stupid Million.
We approached UTV who were very polite but basically the numbers dont work.
Theres no room for us to play with their ball as they have to
be as lean as possible to compete with the duopoly.


ADSL: Again a nice idea thats screwed up by the details. In this sorry excuse for a solution we can either... buy access from Eircom and backhaul the data ourselves or talk to Esat and resell their product.
In both cases we have no control over the technical details which just means we'll end up selling you the same ****ty service for a cheaper price. Thats not what I want.


RADSL: This, we thought, might work well... backhauled, seemingly decently priced.
Unfortunately as people are finding out... contention on this product sucks ass. We'd end up with 48 people with a 512K line EACH to an exchange with a single 512K line up. Thats a little over 1Kps each on average. All it takes is for 3 people to be playing Quake 3 or something and everyone is back to ISDN days. Plus the latency can be bad... (worse then ISDN in general).


So, where are we now? Well, we are following IOFFL actually and looking to the Wireless operators who have their own ball and are willing to play a different game. Basically I've despaired at getting anything approaching decent wholesale broadband of *any* description from the lines in the ground already. We're going to have to think outside the box a little on this one.

I'm only willing to put Boards name to it if the solution rocks and people are going to only say good things about it. Its either that, or stay as we are. We have the skills in this community to do this. What we need is the will of the suppliers to *want* us to succeed. I'm beginning to doubt we will get that from established players.

We *can* offer these existing solutions but to be honest with you, we dont want to offer you something slightly cheaper and equally crap as you can get already. We're talking to the wireless operators because maybe they're as hungry as we are. I'll keep you informed.

Finally, to avoid conflicts of interest. The admins of Boards.ie will be hanging up their admin rights on IOFFL. We will not interfere with the forums or do anything beyond what a regular user can do without explicitly being asked to by the Mods. This is to draw a line between our activities (which may come to naught) and IOFFL's much valued independance.



So there you go. Boards.ie is trying to throw its hat in the ring but only on our terms. Stay tuned.


DeV.

GoneShootin

one can only say woot to a post that leave you stuck for words of joy

spongebob

Originally posted by DeVore

Low (20: 1 max) contention ratio roughly
512K minimum, preferably more.
Uncapped.
Less then 50 Euro inc vat
No (or very low) interleaving.
Latency sensitive (ie: Latency/Routing would be one of key quality indicators.)
Community supported through no-frills support.

Funnily enuff I was thinking of organising a local solution with the exact same numbers as yours above DeV , PM me if u want

M

DeVore

Will do but unless you are hiding a Wireless license or second last-mile solution that you havent told anyone about before... we will still need a last-mile wholesaler.

DeV.

Thorbar

*fap*

Slaanesh

I can see this thread getting rather large. At least someone is attempting to get the finger out.

Nice one Dev,

Slaan.

K!LL!@N

A great idea. I had thought about the possibility of something similar, myself.
Obviously you're pretty serious about this otherwise you wouldn't be telling us.

Just a couple of things though. Is this going to be a non-profit isp? By that i mean, keeping prices as low as possible, but still paying staff and keeping the infrastructure up to date. Perhaps setting aside money for future investment, but having the amount capped. Something along those lines.

Also, is this going to be a nationwide service? Or are you going to be constrained to more highly populated areas. I would be a little concerned about people feeling disenfranchised that they aren't able to avail of any service that might be provided.

You seem to think wireless is the best option, which makes a lot of sense in my opinion. Again though, i'm a little concerned about coverage even in areas like dublin.

But in conclusion i think it's a great idea and i'm sure you'll keep us posted on the progress.

Killian

50Cent

Just out of curiosity, if everything goes your way etc and your successful, when would it be available? Are we talking 3 months, 6 months, a year? Two years? ten years?

PiE

I must say that I'm extremely disapointed at how unhelpful the Telco's have been towards you guys. They're doing everything they possibly can to make it hard for new entrants to the market aren't they?

Anyway, Wireless would appear to be the ONLY feasible step in setting up a Boards ISP. Especially with this new Navini stuff. If you got into bed with IBB, you could set up a board here to gauge demand for the service in certain towns/areas and help IBB set up transmitters in those areas? I don't know how much a transmitter costs, but maybe Boards could pay for the transmitter and have IBB (or whoever) supply the backhaul etc in towns that fulfill the minimum requirements?

Either way, pld lads for even considering it... it'll probably lead you to bankruptcy but pld anyway :]

nahdoic

I assume you've read this thread too?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97596&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Well I won't say anything but I'll just attach this badly done pic instead ...

DeVore

Good questions:

1. We started out wanting to cover all of Ireland. We still want to but thats going to be a long term goal rather then a short term property of the offering.

We will consider multiple partnerships to achieve that (ie, one provider in Cork and a different one in Dublin) if needs be. Right now I'd like to have a supplier of wholesale connections AT ALL!

For the moment we will be looking at Dublin unless someone hands us an arse load of cash to look at buying ADSL and backhauling it to Dublin. Even then coverage is patchy.


2. 3-6 months probably. That said, it could be never if we dont get the upstream quality we know we need. We have everything sorted out except the last mile. Other then that we are sorted and ready to start buying equipment.

3. Profit? We're committed to building this using the power of community. Noone is going to help me buy a Porsche. (I cant drive anyway). Quite possibly we'd do something like a Collective where each "customer" is actually a small shareholder. I dunno but we plan on using brain more then money to make this work.
For the moment, it would be run similarly to Boards... cheap, no frills and community driven.


Be aware that there are TWO reasons for us doing this just as there are two possible outcomes.

1. We're successful and w00t we show that small startups can create mini ISPs and compete. (Albeit small startups with several thousand experienced IT gurus on the payroll )
This is the preferred option!

2. We show that it cant be done and that there are serious competitive flaws in the system that Comreg needs to look at.


Either way something good comes from it. If nothing else Regi and I now know more about telecommunications then I EVER wanted to (though Reggers is like a pig in shíte )


DeV.

Boston

Sounds really really good to me Dev but i somehow don't think you guys can pull it off on your own.

Having talked to bought IBB and Leap for hours about both their wireless services, they seem like sound enough people and i'm sure they would be willing to talk to you. This would be much more succestfull if you hook up with one of these guys as they will have the people to carry this out and the capital.

IBB new ripwave solution maybe the exact thing your looking for, easy to install, even in the base station, good range (5km) just buy backhaul from the ESB network. seriously thought, your talking millions to get started on your own and a dedicated team to work the system. The amounth of customers but IBB and LEap get from baords, they would be mad not to jump at the opertunity

Moriarty

Well blimey.

Have you spoken to the ESB wrt prices/specs for backhaul over their network? How about getting firm prices/specs (if they exist yet..?) for the MANs? Has it been considered at all if youd want to talk with the various irishwan groups?

My mind is boggling at what this could mean if it works out well..


Gentlemen, start your fapping... now!

Boston

Originally posted by Moriarty
Well blimey.

Have you spoken to the ESB wrt prices/specs for backhaul over their network? How about getting firm prices/specs (if they exist yet..?) for the MANs? Has it been considered at all if youd want to talk with the various irishwan groups?
[/size]

If i may, DeVore mentioned that theres a 2million euro NDA, and then said later he had the backhaul and everything sorted out, just need the last mile, this suggests hes already spoken to esb and the price was good.

DeVore

I like the idea of involving the IrishWANs in some way. They fit with our whole borggy-collective feeling .
I've no idea who to contact though

Boston, we can do this and we have a certain amount of capital that we can bring to the table too. We'll be talking to a number of wireless operators. Some who are operating now and some who may be waiting in the wings... *wink wink nudge nudge*.

We aint gonna do this unless its gonna be done right.
I have NO intention of being the next hate-figure on the telco-scene. (too many of you know where I live )

DeV.

DeVore

Mor: The problem with backhauling is that the access is contended before we get out hands on it. Thats just simply not good enough. By the time the data would get to us we'd already be supplying you with crap service imho.

Boston: I understand your point but I'd prefer to talk for myself as there are a lot of reasons why I dont want words put in my mouth (about 2million reasons ). As it happens, we havent spoken to ESB as the landline solution is just pants before it ever gets to backhauling it. I'll give you 2 guesses who's NDA it is.
And you'll only need one


DeV.

shinzon

When this gets off the ground and i have no doubt that it will, it defo will be a kick in the arse for telcos like eircom and esat and all the others.

just dont wait ten years to get down around the souith east

I for one would love a barrage balloon outside my window displaying the boards logo






Regards
Shin

Boston

Originally posted by DeVore
I like the idea of involving the IrishWANs in some way. They fit with our whole borggy-collective feeling .
I've no idea who to contact though

Boston, we can do this and we have a certain amount of capital that we can bring to the table too. We'll be talking to a number of wireless operators. Some who are operating now and some who may be waiting in the wings... *wink wink nudge nudge*.

We aint gonna do this unless its gonna be done right.
I have NO intention of being the next hate-figure on the telco-scene. (too many of you know where I live )

No doubt, with the right people, at the right time you can do almost anything, just saying you need engineers,technicians and all this other stuff. Could probably set up a small ISP servicing 200-250 people i nthe dublin centre sity area for the price of a house, i've seen it done, how do you guys think DNA got sarted. seriously thought if you play this right, it could be very very big, I know I'd buy it and help out as well (it ever needed and if i actually knew something)

Edit: ah i see, interesting very interesting, explains alot really, i'll say no more.

50Cent

I like what i see. Seems like a very good service if it can be achieved.

Best of luck lads.

BigEejit

An absolutely great idea, its a pity that a wired solution is unattainable but I'd imagine the deprived majority who can't get broadband because of eircons and eshats shenanigans will be whooping and dancing for joy in the streets if you could pull it off (figuratively speaking) ....

Ronan|Raven

Best of luck with the ISP lads, I can imagine the headaches ye are experiencing with the delightful monopolies in this country. Im would be great to see ye get it off the ground and have an isp out there who might even give a frig about the consumer.

Mr_Man

Guys,

kudos for attempting this ! I hope, as I'm sure everyone else on the board does, that you can get this up and running. You know what the issues are, what the people want and where other suppliers have fallen down. Best of luck with it and the sooner we get some real competition in the Irish teleco field the better,

M.

Nitrox

This is Great!!
If i may here is a few ideas which i think could have a great potetial getting this off the ground.
First of all you will need money, lots of money, so why not let us by some shares to raise money.....i would happily be an investor.
Second you need a lot of customers. There are loads of us who can not avail from Wireless broadband because you need to set up and antenna and the Building societies will not permit this.
I am sure if you could start working with these companies Antennas could be put on the roof and then connections could fairly easily be shared out to the whole apartment block.
Ok, maybe this is a bit much, but i know it has worked wonders in Denmark

Boston

Originally posted by Nitrox
First of all you will need money, lots of money, so why not let us by some shares to raise money.....i would happily be an investor. Second you need a lot of customers.

Not really, up to quiet recently both IBB and LEap had few then a hundread users, i think IBB signed uo their one hundread customer a few months ago. so you really don't need that many users, one base station will service a radious of 5km (even more in some cases) IBB where selling there service from the RTE tower to a guy in east wall, thats alot more then 5 km. Better off wit ha small trial user area first to allow you to sort out problems, security will be a major one when dealign with wireless connections, i'd imagine. simple fact is, with the global downturn, theres never been a better time to start up an isp, price of equipment is the cheapest i've evr seen it.

BTW Devore Irish Wan is very good, and i could easy see a joint venture there, but as yet i havent seem much in dublin(i know they are though), which is where this project will either succeed or fail

flav0rflav

Who is your planned upstream provider?

De Rebel

Dev

I would urge you to rework your initial post to make the situation even more easily understood ("Competition is NOT viable at present despite 3 years of ODTR/COMREG") and get it onto the Minister's desk asap. He needs to be appraised of this reality and the sooner the better. You are a credible contender and I have no doubt that your case will make an impact. The Government is relying on competition to sort out the mess and you are proof that its not working.

Once again it underlines what the committee, Adam, Muck and many other have been saying here for month's now - we need a competitor that it totally independent of Eircom/ESAT's infrastructure to get real competition in the market. While Comreg splutters with 50 page strategies and unworkably convoluted market models, we simply do NOT and will NOT see real competition.

Do it. The minister, his Department and the rest of the political class is finally waking up to the way we are being ****ed over by the duopoly. People are listening at long last. A page from you setting out the work done, the conclusions reached and the reason you are "walking away" (even if you are not) will have a major impact.

echomadman

Nice one,
and as you mentioned, you have a large pool of IT savvy folk on hand to serve as guinea pigs/customers/erstwhile technicians who are on excellent terms with yourselves.

onward and upward...

Mark

Christ....Im shocked tbh.

Atm Im pinning on my hopes on UTVs upcoming 24/7 connection for 56k and dont consider broadband a possibility. But here a ray of hope has shone through.

Really really really hope you can pull this off, I'd snap it up instantly and it'd give me another reason to give boards my SOLE (!1!11).

G'wan Admins tbh.

Dustaz

I totally agree with De Rebel.

If there was ever a pointer to the fundamental flaw in the irish telco equation (the last mile) this is it with flashing lights and a massive sign saying "THIS IS A MESS".

This is a potential competitor with the money, the business plan and the means to set up an isp which is needed and wanted by a chunk of the irish net population.

This group have given up on wired solutions because it is unfeasable and unworkable. Are you reading this Ms Doyle? Mr Ahern?

Tom, do as DeRebel says and send this to anyone who will listen.

80% of people on IRC, 80% of boards users and who knows who else would immediatly be interested in the type of service you are talking about. Thats a lot of people, What does it say about the state of competition regulation?

parasite

viva la revolución !

DeVore

Aye, I am documenting my travels in telcoland for just that reason.

The point is, the outlook is NOT GOOD for us.
As regi said today in the office as people where getting excited
"What part of 'We tried and its all f*cked' " dont these people get?"

We have done quite sophisticated models of fionances.
The break even point is about 300 people. Not so hard to get really but the problem isnt just the economics, its that you have to scraaaaape the connectivity so thin between those people that its worse then ISDN (as people are finding out )

The margin squeeze on FRIACO is so severe its criminal.
I cannot believe how much that wholesale offering mings of ass.

Wireless is our last and only hope basically. We *have* to get around the bottle neck at the last mile one way or another.
I'd just go postal and explode if I had to deal with the sh*t thats going on with fixed line wholesale at the moment! Its messing, pure and simple.

As far as ISP's go, I'm reminded of that line from the Matrix.
"they guard all the doors, they hold all the keys and sooner or later someone is going to have to fight them".
Well, sorry folks but I aint Neo. I cant force them to play ball but we're going to damned well see if there are any ways around their doors and into your homes.

We've decided to enter the fight and at the very least start to make a nuisance of ourselves. Well ok... more of a nuisance.: ) But we are deadly serious about doing this. We have everything down to the billing systems sourced (upstream bandwidth, servers, support stuff etc)... including startup capital.
All we need is a way into your homes.


DeV.

shinzon

does anyone think this really is beginning to sound like the matrix is devore trying to

FREE OUR MINDS

Well im taking the red pill

Regards

Shin

DeVore

If only I COULD wave my hand and all Eircom's routers would just fall over. That would be cool. I mean, it would crash the irish internet but, uhhuh, it would still be cool

No, actually this idea was as much Regis as mine. We just were sitting there one day pissed off about the state of things and commenting about how we had to wait for someone to "get it right". Along the way we realised that we're going to DIE waiting because NOONE can do it and profit in this market right now. So the only people who even stand a chance are a community of technologist...

Now where could we find something like that


DeV.

irishguy

this is actually a bit of a shock, but best of luck yo you guys and i cant speak for the irishwan but i am sure that most people in it wont mind helping you out, you should come to the national meeting in Limerick there will be alot of people there and i must say there is alot of very knowledgeable people on the wan, who have done alot of work with wireless equiptment and can help you out. I am not trying to put a dampener on the idea but do you actualy know how much work this is? you would have to give up your jobs to make it work. i am sure there can be some arangement with the irishwan because you would be an ideal company for us to buy our backhaul off. best of luck with the new venture lads

Ste-

Good Luck.
Boards goes from strength to strength.





Ste

jwt

Nice....is the non disclosure agreement covered by the NDA???

If not can we see??

I like the shares idea, worth doing if capital falls short.

As far as Irish WAN (I am not speaking for them) some of us already have set up local hubs, currently I serve 6 users in Clonard Meath sharing a 128K line via a proxy server using an Omni antenna for free. (I have paid for the line anyway so why charge my neighbours).

There are many others starting to link, currently donnybrook to Lucan is feasable and there is already talk of kinnegad, clonard, longwood and enfield trying to link up. The will is there, many will contribute time, materials and labour for free just on principle.

Although the wired arena is f***ed the wireless technologies coming onstream will make it a cheaper more efficient distribution model as time goes on.

JWT

Rabies

:eek:

that wasn't expected.

fair play to you for coming up with the idea and wanting to put it in motion

hope it works out.

byte

I agree with Rabies.

Good Luck, guys as you'll probably need lots of it!

jonski

Originally posted by DeVore
All we need is a way into your homes.

DeV.

Front door is open ,I'll put the kettle on.:)

If it gets off the ground ,down Limerick way and i can play games on it , then my signature is yours.

John.

De Rebel

Originally posted by DeVore
Along the way we realised that we're going to DIE waiting because NOONE can do it and profit in this market right now.

No they can’t because somewhere along the line they are feeding Eircom’s debt mountain and oiling its hugely inefficient cogs. That organisation has ridiculous overheads and we are all suffering because of it. But in principal there is no reason why these services cannot be run at a profit, except for the Ericom factor. You have hit the nail on the head ..... Alternative Last Mile. Optimum solution – do it without Eircom/ESAT anywhere in the equation – and it looks like wireless is the way to go.

Originally posted by DeVore
What part of 'We tried and its all f*cked' " dont these people get?

The reality is that they are starting to understand. We have moved from that birdbrain O’Rourke to a minister who has the intellectual capacity, the openness and political cunningness to realise a good thing when he sees it. He is listening, saying the right things and so far following through with action.

This week, two members of the IOFFL committee sat in front of an Oireachtas Joint Committee, at the committee’s invitation, and got a serious hearing for their views. They were asked intelligent questions by members of all parties which demonstrate an awareness of the issues and a willingness to engage. Broadband is a live political topic. They are seeing the possibilities and the need. They are also seeing the potential damage of Ireland being in 51st place. In Irish terms, what we saw this week is unprecedented democracy in action; politicians listening and doing their homework.

Your case is a perfect example which can reinforce what IOFFL is trying to achieve and hopefully further clarify the issue for the politicians involved. Don’t procrastinate. Work and re work your initial post, and get it off today by registered post to the Minister’s office with a copy to the Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. Preaching here is easy, we are the converted, your adoring and appreciative audience. Take the message where it matters, to the man with the power. Send him a clear message and follow up with a face to face meeting.

dahamsta

Originally posted by De Rebel
Once again it underlines what the committee, Adam, Muck and many other have been saying here for month's now - we need a competitor that it totally independent of Eircom/ESAT's infrastructure to get real competition in the market.

I'm not talking about just myself here, but everyone you mentioned and more: It's years, not months. Ok, two years, maybe one and a half, but you get the picture.

I remember myself and Fergus from the committee nattering about wireless back when I was PRO. We didn't fully understand it, but we knew enough to know that it was probably going to be the only alternative last mile. We could see Eircom weren't going to give up the last mile, that Esat weren't going to compete, that Etain had fúcked cable beyond repair. We talked about setting up networks, chatted about backhaul over dry lines. It didn't go anywhere, obviously, but we were serious.

CorkWAN appeared not long after that, and I got involved for the same reasons. I chat with my colleagues and ex-colleagues in CorkWAN about community and commercial wireless in the pub over beer. We natter about sites, and security, and backhaul, and competitors. If a few of us had the money for a commercial operation, we'd stick our first antennae up next week serving Ballinlough, and have it at capacity within a month or two. We'd build out quicker than you could spit.

I don't know if Boards is going to go ahead with wireless or not, and in all honesty I don't care, as long as /someone/ does it. Everyone here has the capacity for this, and if anyone is qualified, if anyone is /required/ to do something like this, it's IrelandOffline supporters. Wireless isn't rocket science, anyone can do it because you have to build a network of people to roll out, and there will always be enthusiasts in that community.

Seriously, go and find some people to join you and sit down and talk about it. At worst, you have a few beers and a rejuvenating rant about Eircom and Esat. At best, you take the last mile back and cut them out of the equation. They're weak now, they need us to stay so they can stay in business. Make them hurt. Cut them off at the knees, take money out of their pockets, send them packing. Send Phil and Bill back to their holes.

Phil and Bill eh? They even sound like muppets when you put them together.

BTW, Tom, what De Rebel said. Seriously, wrap it up in a pretty bow and send it everywhere. The Competition Authority, ComReg, the Minister, the Taoiseach, the Tanaiste, the opposition leaders and cabinets, Mario Monti, Erkii Liikanen, MEPs, TDs, Dana, Bibi, Gina, Dale, Haze and the Champions. Everywhere! And if it doesn't come together for Boards ISP Inc, thanks for trying anyway.

adam

pencil

I hereby volunteer my services as a human mast!

Best of luck.

Much like those auld lads on Moore St

Saruman

It would be great of the board's spread like a virus or plague around the country, eating up the big ISP's with cheap affordable but class quality boardband!

"We are the board, resistance is futile, your technoligical distinctiveness will be added to our own. All others are just muppets !"

robfitz

DeVore. If you want to talk to someone at IrishWAN you can get in contact with me at robfitz@273k.net (FYI, I'm the DublinWAN Chairperson). Or you can join us in the #irishwan channel on irc.irishwan.org, a number of the committee members from the other county group hang out there during the day.

Cabaal

Originally posted by Saruman
"We are the board, resistance is futile, your technoligical distinctiveness will be added to our own. All others are just muppets !"

Maybe use that for marketing, or maybe not.....

tbh in the big scheme of things, atleast Esat has better services then Eircom.
So I just hope we make a nice big dent in Eircoms revenue from Broadband, because I for one would dump my land line if I could get wireless access.

So as well as Eircom loosing a landline customer, they'll loose money from Esat when I drop Broadband.

Trebor

I whole hartly endorse this product/service

You can have my money when it gets up and running.

Valentia

Good luck lads!

A question from a novice. When you say that the wires in the ground are never going to be a solution for the backbone, what are the alternatives.

Trebor

Originally posted by Valentia
Good luck lads!

A question from a novice. When you say that the wires in the ground are never going to be a solution for the backbone, what are the alternatives.

we have good wires for backhaul its the "last mile" wires that are the problem as only eircom owns them. These are the phone wires between you and the exchange, which are not the best and would cost a fortune to upgrade.

spongebob

Verdegris in other words.

Trebor

Originally posted by Muck
Verdegris in other words.

sorry but Verdegris? what does this mean?

dahamsta

verdigris

verdigris [vúrdi gree, vúrdi greess] noun
1.green deposit on copper: a green or greenish-blue deposit (patina) on copper, brass, and bronze that is caused by atmospheric corrosion and consists of copper carbonates.
Also called verd antique
2.greenish copper powder: a green or greenish-blue poisonous powder that is used as a paint pigment and fungicide. It is formed by the action of acetic acid on copper and consists of one or more basic copper acetates.

[14th century. From Old French vert de Grece, literally ‘green of Greece’.]

Encarta® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1999, 2000 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.