The New Islam

kkawohl

When democracy is installed in Iraq, it will have a snow-ball effect with other Islam ruled countries. Chechnya will soon receive autonomy for self-rule but will still be under Russian control.

Islam beliefs will be modernized whereby slavery to Allah will be frowned upon. One needs to keep an open mind and allow the spirit to absorb the logic of who/what Allah/God is without being inhibited by what should be considered religious dogma and conditioning. Allah does not change with the times but our perception of who Allah is should change as societies eliminate their superstitious beliefs. GOD/Allah, the Ultimate Spirit consists of Supreme Purity, Pure Intelligence, Pure Logic, etc., is not encumbered by human attributes and has no needs, or a desire to be worshiped, prayed to, exalted, venerated, deified, or anything else that we have to offer. He/it is comparable to a Master Planner who/that guides the universe rather than controls it; not this mighty ruler who wishes to enslave mankind, but a peaceful coexistence of the spirits or souls of many of our forefathers, past prophets, and all who lived righteously; Cultures change with time. Allah has always been the same, but our perception of him/it will vary with time.

With USA help the Iraq people will be the most prosperous of all Muslim nations and it is they who will unite the Islam tribes. Iraq oil wells will soon have a daily output of over 10 million barrels a day. The power of OPEK and the Saudi Arabia control over it will soon be greatly diminished or eliminated.

Kurt Kawohl

The slogan "I Am A Transcendentalist" will revolutionize, modernize and bring ALL religions into the 21st Century, and with Allah's blessings.

" I Am A Transcendentalist "
Transcendentalism

mayhem#

Dream on boy, dream on.....

E.

Sparks

Hmmm. Maybe we should bring those closing hours back a bit....

kkawohl

Are dreams real during the dream or is our life the reality of someone else's dream?

We should live our life to its fullest. One hundred years from now, almost every single person alive today will have died. Several billion people, wiped off the face of this earth. Our life is but a blip on the radar screen of time.

The irony is the shortsightedness of mankind.

mayhem#

Stop sniffing that glue...

E.

kkawohl

President Bush and his cabinet have decided that we will use whatever it takes to eradicate Saddam Hussein (if he's still alive), al Queda and other terrorists. The only way that this can be accomplished is to have a dominant, permanent military presence in the Middle East; this will eventually bring peace and stability to that region.

Iraq shares borders with Jordan, Syria, Turkey, Iran, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and the Persian Gulf which is convenient for our naval forces. A new democratic government in Iraq will be the beginning of our efforts to reshape and bring peace to the Middle East.

kkawohl

mayhem,

Your claim is "I love the smell of napalm in the morning!"

Maybe it's the napalm rather than the glue that clears the mind?

kkawohl

So how have all the intellectuals on this board contributed toward attempting to stop terrorism?

Maybe we should all just stick our heads into the sand like ostriches and the problems will then solve themselves, Right?

Excuse the pun apparently intellect is wanting here.

Zombrex

1. Ostriches don't stick their heads in the ground, that is a myth

2. US military presents in the Middle East has already brought about 2 wars in the last 2 years.

3. What if the democratic free people of Iraq decide to vote in an extremist Islamic goverment, that cuts all ties with the US? What would the US do then (aside from the obvious, kill the president and put a puppet in charge

kkawohl

An ostrich can also be classified as an escapist; one who tends to avoid uncomfortable or difficult situations.

US troops will be stationed in Iraq for several years to quell islamic radical fundamentalists. A Democratic government can not be ruled by religious fundamentalists.

amp

Mayhem and Sparks, stop flaming.

The argument seems to be that the with the USA's help Iraq can become a prosperous country. Argue about that issue, not kkawohl's posting style.

kkawohl

Hail Amp,

Do we have a new Transcendentalist ?

Zombrex

Originally posted by kkawohl
US troops will be stationed in Iraq for several years to quell islamic radical fundamentalists.

No they haven't?? US troops have been stationed around Iraq to inforce the no flight zone.

Originally posted by kkawohl

A Democratic government can not be ruled by religious fundamentalists.

Yes it can .. you have obviously never been to the US

You assume that the people of Iraq would vote for a more liberal religious system. My point is what if they don't ...

kkawohl

Wicknight,

I live in the USA.

Have you been keeping current with the news? Iraq is presently occupied by US troops and I know that they will be there as long as it takes. Similarly to Japan; it took seven years to install a functioning democratic government & US troops are still there.

If you are from Iraq, get used to US troops. The USA will reform your way of life and you WILL be better off, whether you like it or not.

http://transcendentalism.us

The Corinthian

Originally posted by kkawohl
The USA will reform your way of life and you WILL be better off, whether you like it or not.

Whether we like it or not? What a wonderfully perverse and twisted view of democracy that you have.

amp

Originally posted by kkawohl
Hail Amp,

Do we have a new Transcendentalist ?

No. I am one of the Moderators of this forum. You're new here so please read the charter and play by the rules.

mayhem#

Originally posted by amp
Mayhem and Sparks, stop flaming.

The argument seems to be that the with the USA's help Iraq can become a prosperous country. Argue about that issue, not kkawohl's posting style.

I'm not flaming, i'm just pointing out that his statement/argument is complete tripe....

E.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by kkawohl

If you are from Iraq, get used to US troops. The USA will reform your way of life and you WILL be better off, whether you like it or not.

Quite a sweeping statement for something that is so subjective. The idea of democracy is that the people of a nation have a choice - not that something is done "whether you like it or not".

I love democracy à la carte :rolleyes:

Sparks

Originally posted by amp
Mayhem and Sparks, stop flaming.
The argument seems to be that the with the USA's help Iraq can become a prosperous country. Argue about that issue, not kkawohl's posting style.

It wasn't his posting style I was laughing at, it was his total abandonment of logic. I'm rather convinced that that's Biffa back there, having some fun.

I mean, come on - "Islam beliefs will be modernized whereby slavery to Allah will be frowned upon.", "With USA help the Iraq people will be the most prosperous of all Muslim nations", "Iraq oil wells will soon have a daily output of over 10 million barrels a day. The power of OPEK and the Saudi Arabia control over it will soon be greatly diminished or eliminated. ", "The only way that this can be accomplished is to have a dominant, permanent military presence in the Middle East; this will eventually bring peace and stability to that region.", "So how have all the intellectuals on this board contributed toward attempting to stop terrorism?", "A Democratic government can not be ruled by religious fundamentalists.", and best of all, "The USA will reform your way of life and you WILL be better off, whether you like it or not."

There's neither logic, reason, nor even correct facts in those rants of his. So what exactly am I supposed to argue against? All the points he even comes close to (the nature of islam, the prosperity of the Iraqis prior to the Bush family, the nature of the control of Iraqi oil fields and the reaction of OPEC, and the impact on international security caused by the invasion), we have covered on the board already. The last three sentences - well, frankly, deletion is the only reasonable response, and the crack about what "intellectuals on this board" is an insult and frankly, he should have received a warning for it.

amp

Why is that nobody seems to read the charter?

Here, I'll quote it for you in case you're too lazy to read it:

"A moderator may well warn people about their posts in a thread. Do not respond to the warning on the thread.

If you have a problem with a moderator, then pm the moderator or post on Admin. Any complaint made about moderators here will locked/deleted/moved."

pro_gnostic_8

Why such a critical backlash by all to kkawohl's post? His posit that the American temporary presence in Iraq will be a force for change in that country is uncontestable. And, his contention that such change might include an attitude reconsideration by many Iraqi people of their Islamic commitment surely has validity. Only a couple of decades ago this country was in thrall to the priests of the Roman church until modernity and the influences of the outside world released us from their control.

I think kkawohl's perspective, as a believer in Allah, is commendable and hope-inspiring. Too many Muslims in the world have been distracted from the true tenets of Islam by the aberration that is fundamentalism. They have been misled by the deviancy of radical clericism to hate modernism and the West. As KK says, Allah or the "Godhead" does not demand slavery from his believers. Neither does the Godhead require that women who wear nail varnish have their fingers chopped of, or that an adulteress be stoned to death. Now if the U.S.A. by its assistance in Iraq during this transitionary period can lessen the influence of radical fundamentalism and hate-filled clerics, then that surely is a "good thing" for humanity and society. Personally, my solution would be more extreme. Lock up these preachers of hatred and throw away the key. Or execute them............ I don't really care as long as they are silenced for the greater good.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Why such a critical backlash by all to kkawohl's post? His posit that the American temporary presence in Iraq will be a force for change in that country is uncontestable.

That it may be a force for temporary change is incontestable, but that this change will actually be a long-standing (after the troops leave) one that is accepted by the culture without ongoing duress is debatable. Look at Afghanistan.

The critical backlash that kkawohl received was based upon the irony of imposing democracy by undemocratic means - that one nation may impose it’s ideological and moral values “whether we like it or not”.

It does not take a genius to work out that the success of such a paternalistic policy, especially when executed by a power with questionable understanding of what it is they are changing (BTW, kkawohl, OPEC is not spelt with a ‘K’), is unlikely to succeed. It does however require that one be not deluded by one’s own fanaticism, to realize this.

That he also cites the shortsightedness of man, simply inflames his argument further from the ironic to the surreal.

Any course of action that is based upon the assumptions of faith - be it faith in God/Allah or in the American Dream/Socialist Utopia - should always be viewed with suspicion. After all, faith is all too often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Lock up these preachers of hatred and throw away the key. Or execute them............ I don't really care as long as they are silenced for the greater good.

Fair enough, but please don’t pretend you support democracy then. Grant at least that you are honest about your beliefs - “that democracy is good as long as I agree with it, otherwise it should be suspended for the greater good that does not realize what’s good for it and should be guided”.

pro_gnostic_8

Kkawohl's "Whether they like it or not" phrase was unfortunate, I agree, but the underlying proposition in the original post is still sound ............... namely that the American presence in Iraq may well have a positive effect in counterbalancing the influence of radiacl fundamentalism in the Middle East.

The way I see it is that the unchecked rise of Islamofascism with its dedicated animosity towards the West carries with it a significant terrorist threat to free societies. Two ways to counter this threat:- a) the West withdraws into an insular and defensive cocoon eliminating contact and intercourse with Moslem nations, or, b) the West pro-actively engages in a battle through logic and discourse to sway the hearts and minds of Muslim people away from fundamentalism and the mindset more appropriate to the Dark Ages. Unfortunately, -- and U will not like me for saying this - IMO the second option , a process already underway in Iraq needs to be extended to the "spiritual" home of flaky fundamentalism.........Iran - a country run by tyrannical thugs in clerical garb which exports arms to kill Israeli citizens, is a close ally of Hezbollah, and whose fundamentalist theocracy veto's every democratic reform proposed by its puppet parliament.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Fair enough, but please don’t pretend you support democracy then. Grant at least that you are honest about your beliefs - “that democracy is good as long as I agree with it, otherwise it should be suspended for the greater good that does not realize what’s good for it and should be guided”.

My embrace of democracy isn't a pretence ................ are you suggesting that it is because I believe that democracy has a right to defend itself by eliminating the influence of those whose life-mission is to destroy it?

DadaKopf

Originally posted by kkawohl
When democracy is installed in Iraq, it will have a snow-ball effect with other Islam ruled countries. Chechnya will soon receive autonomy for self-rule but will still be under Russian control.

Islam beliefs will be modernized whereby slavery to Allah will be frowned upon. One needs to keep an open mind and allow the spirit to absorb the logic of who/what Allah/God is without being inhibited by what should be considered religious dogma and conditioning. Allah does not change with the times but our perception of who Allah is should change as societies eliminate their superstitious beliefs. GOD/Allah, the Ultimate Spirit consists of Supreme Purity, Pure Intelligence, Pure Logic, etc., is not encumbered by human attributes and has no needs, or a desire to be worshiped, prayed to, exalted, venerated, deified, or anything else that we have to offer. He/it is comparable to a Master Planner who/that guides the universe rather than controls it; not this mighty ruler who wishes to enslave mankind, but a peaceful coexistence of the spirits or souls of many of our forefathers, past prophets, and all who lived righteously; Cultures change with time. Allah has always been the same, but our perception of him/it will vary with time.

With USA help the Iraq people will be the most prosperous of all Muslim nations and it is they who will unite the Islam tribes. Iraq oil wells will soon have a daily output of over 10 million barrels a day. The power of OPEK and the Saudi Arabia control over it will soon be greatly diminished or eliminated.

Kurt Kawohl

The slogan "I Am A Transcendentalist" will revolutionize, modernize and bring ALL religions into the 21st Century, and with Allah's blessings.

" I Am A Transcendentalist "
Transcendentalism

So you're announcing the death of absolutism, which is pretty much the opposite of what Bush (and his Judeo-Christian axis) says.

This is the prediction of a war. No way will people throw away their beliefs and antire reason for living away just like that.

DadaKopf

Oh, and John Gray has a book out about all this 'transcendentalist', neo-utopian bullcrap. Capitalism, Marxism, Neo-Liberalism, political Islam, scientism - they all suffer from the scourge of positivism, the belief that all this logic and science and 'insight' will inevitably lead to some utopian dreamland. Dream on, more like.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Kkawohl's "Whether they like it or not" phrase was unfortunate, I agree, but the underlying proposition in the original post is still sound

But the underlying proposition is not sound, as it does not necessarily apply to just the Islamic World but to any culture or political body that does not conform to a central, defining power. Arguing that the phrase was unfortunate is just the defence of an apologist.

namely that the American presence in Iraq may well have a positive effect in counterbalancing the influence of radiacl fundamentalism in the Middle East.

That’s a laughable assertion: To begin with, Iraq was a secular state that banned religious fundamentalism. It is now that the Americans have liberated Iraq that fundamentalist groups are gaining ground, not before.

The way I see it is that the unchecked rise of Islamofascism with its dedicated animosity towards the West carries with it a significant terrorist threat to free societies.

Ahh... the spectre of Islamofascism. So why does it carry a significant terrorist threat to free societies?

My embrace of democracy isn't a pretence ................ are you suggesting that it is because I believe that democracy has a right to defend itself by eliminating the influence of those whose life-mission is to destroy it?

And when does that right to defend democracy become authoritarianism? When did democracy become so absolute as to deny others the right to either change or reject it?

No, that’s not democracy, whether you like it or not and whether you realize it or not.

kkawohl

How can we change Muslim religious ideology to stop terrorism?

How does one confront the passions of people with a logical entreaty to abandon faith? How does one convince a young man that his self-immolation in a bombing will not bring redemption from Allah to his soul and rewards to his people or honor to his family?

If logical reasoning lodges doubt into the mind of a martyr that his soul will be destroyed as a punishment for being the cause of cutting short another soul's ability to attain a bond with Allah/God, eventually the act of self-sacrifice ceases. This is the only effective way that man will eventually attain peace.

We can spend billions of dollars in an attempt to annihilate groups of people who have an adamant fanatical goal to destroy anyone who hinders the path of spreading their religion. They believe that this has been commanded by Allah. The end result will always be the same. The fanatics who are destroyed fuel the hatred of a new group with the same or an even fiercer fervor to die for their Allah if the need arises.

How do we solve this problem? The pen is mightier than the sword. To the illiterate, visual projections via film is the greatest tool. The media and film producers have always shied away from the possibility of offending religious organizations. A fear of the fundamentalists' wrath has even stifled the desire for the truth. Can the real truth be revealed? Will this end strife? Maybe not, but unless we try, we will never know; will we?

A fanatic passion to please God has been demonstrated throughout the Ages. We have seen vast destruction and useless killings by religious zealots that have followed us into the present century whereby even technology is unable to quell its tide. Muslims have been led to believe that they must expand Islam in order to please Allah/God. Since Judaism created the present perception of God, it is the duty of Judaism, the originator to bring rationality to a belief in Allah/God if Israel and Judaism wants to live in peace with Muslims.

If all the events that occurred as written in the Bible, Qur’an and Torah now, today, would humanity be as gullible now and accept all miracles and God as portrayed then? If the context entails incorrect exegeses and the vast tradition of hermeneutics and the translation is illogical, it is illogical whether it is by my interpretation or by any logic.

Mankind has progressed past a need for a God who desires and requires servitude. We can eliminate servitude and still have a closeness and love of God. It was man who placed restrictions on himself for the good of mankind and attributed this to God. Most of us now live in a lawful society. Now laws are proposed and enforced by governments. God does not, and never has meddled in our affairs.

If we take rationality completely out of context when establishing an association with present day problems between Jews, Christians and Muslims, we can come up with numerous solutions. Reality however dictates that if there were no distinctions between Muslims, Jews, and Christians, strife could be somewhat subdued. The major distinction is religion.

The best weapon against irrationality is logic. If logic is implemented in religion, eventually the inference of reasoning has to predominate and the illogical will be considered inferior and will ridicule itself out of existence. Today we have at our disposal the means whereby the media can reach even the farthest corners of our world.

True logic is the science of inference and reasoning


I Am A Transcendentalist

The Corinthian

The only problem with logic is that it is axiomatic. If those axioms on which we found our reason are flawed then so shall our conclusions be.

Of course, kkawohl, you assume that the US is primarily interested in spreading peace and that coercion (what else is the use and threat of use of military force?) is a reasonable means of fostering that reason in others. And by your logic, it will all fall beautifully into place, guided by the strong well-meaning hand of the US military – as you put it “The USA will reform your way of life and you WILL be better off, whether you like it or not”.

Islamic fundamentalists have assertions that are as strongly felt as yours, and from which all they logically and rationally deduce their view of their World. Are you so sure that their initial assertions, their axioms are wrong and yours are right? Are either of you?

The problem with your embrace of logic is that it is based upon questionable axioms that require force and not reason to convince others. That makes what your peddling just as fundamentalist as those you claim to oppose.

Ironic, isn’t it?

kkawohl

Corinthian,

Sometimes force is required to counterbalance skewed forces that oppress and enslave their own people. President Bush and his cabinet have decided that the USA will use whatever it takes to eradicate Saddam Hussein, (if he’s still alive) al Queda and other terrorists. The only way that this can be accomplished is to have a dominant, permanent military presence in the Middle East; this will eventually bring peace and stability to that region.

Iraq shares borders with Jordan, Syria, Turkey, Iran, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and the Persian Gulf which is convenient for USA naval forces. A new democratic government in Iraq will be the beginning of our efforts to reshape and bring peace to the Middle East.

American culture is composed from descendents of various countries who have fled oppression to seek freedom from oppression and have sought to share these values of freedom with others. The American Government is not regarded as being perfect by its people but it is one that the majority of Americans has chosen to live by. They regard it as being of their making and better than any other presently in existence. Americans, the majority, choose their elected officials, including the president to represent them and will replace them and him within four years if the peoples wishes are not abided by. This is our democracy.

Although my theme is mainly regarding religious misperceptions that are contributing factors toward terrorism, presently this is a main factor in the world current events. My , as well as should be the concern of all, is the shortsightedness of humanity. Arguments created over trivialities often lead to fighting and killings between religions and countries. We should all be able to live our life to its fullest.

Even a single unnecessary death is regrettable. Often the families of the deceased grieve and then strike back or attempt to kill the perpetrator in anger. The battle escalates. God/Allah is called upon to help each side in the strife. People justify their dying for Allah's cause and believe that they will be rewarded in heaven.

My mission is to renounce outdated antiquated religious ideology that contributes toward terrorism. Religion is only a guise for the expression of hatred in RADICALS, presently this is mostly applicable to Islam radicals. This ideology must and WILL CHANGE.
Meditation is the only essential requirement in religion, everything else is conditioning.

The phrase "I am a Transcendentalist" will revolutionize religions and bring in religious common sense, if there is such a thing.
Albert Einstein believed that there was evidence for some kind of intelligence behind the design of the universe, although he strenuously rejected the existence of a personal god. He felt that "God" may very well be the "energy" that is in all matter and energy, that cannot be separated from matter/energy.

Kurt
Transcendentalism

kkawohl

pro_gnostic_8

I agree with you completely.

kkawohl

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Oh, and John Gray has a book out about all this 'transcendentalist', neo-utopian bullcrap. Capitalism, Marxism, Neo-Liberalism, political Islam, scientism - they all suffer from the scourge of positivism, the belief that all this logic and science and 'insight' will inevitably lead to some utopian dreamland. Dream on, more like.

Have you heard the song, "Row, row row your boat gently down the stream, merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream."

But...some of us like to create waves.

amp

I don't like waves. Stay on topic sailor.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by kkawohl
Sometimes force is required to counterbalance skewed forces that oppress and enslave their own people. President Bush and his cabinet have decided that the USA will use whatever it takes to eradicate Saddam Hussein, (if he’s still alive) al Queda and other terrorists. The only way that this can be accomplished is to have a dominant, permanent military presence in the Middle East; this will eventually bring peace and stability to that region.

Yet you have consistently given no argument that the USA can do all this other than your own conviction for American democracy and that the rest of the World should accept Pax Americana. And you dare talk of freedom?

American culture is composed from descendents of various countries who have fled oppression to seek freedom from oppression and have sought to share these values of freedom with others.

Yours is a better culture to mine then?

The American Government is not regarded as being perfect by its people but it is one that the majority of Americans has chosen to live by. They regard it as being of their making and better than any other presently in existence. Americans, the majority, choose their elected officials, including the president to represent them and will replace them and him within four years if the peoples wishes are not abided by. This is our democracy.

And one you wish to impose on others without the choice you have?

My mission is to renounce outdated antiquated religious ideology that contributes toward terrorism. Religion is only a guise for the expression of hatred in RADICALS, presently this is mostly applicable to Islam radicals. This ideology must and WILL CHANGE.

Your mission appears to simply be the removal on one dogma with another.

How many languages do you speak, how many countries have you lived in (reincarnations may not be used in this answer :rolleyes: )? How much of the history of the Middle East, their customs and practices do you understand (Last time I checked you even misspelt OPEC)? Or even of Europe, for that matter?

Yet you assume that your cause is righteous and that those who do not see as you do are shortsighted. You’ll even go as far as condone that these poor misguided souls are brought to heel and shown the true path to democracy, happiness and Starbucks. Even if it kills them...

I only see another American supremacist here.

kkawohl

Corinthian,

I do assume that my cause is righteous but I do not assume that those who do not see as I do are shortsighted. For further explanations thereon see my website or read my book which can be accessed free from that site.

The shortsightedness of mankind that I refer to is: Everything is progressive and accumulative. We are here to accumulate experiences of feelings, the beauty of every organism that surrounds us, the landscape that adds to our perception; then we can begin our next journey.

We should live our life to its fullest. One hundred years from now, almost every single person alive today will have died. Several billion people, wiped off the face of this earth. Our life is but a blip on the radar screen of time. We are the most important person responsible for whether our soul will live or die. Here we have to learn how to intertwine with a community; there we can experience anything that the imagination can perceive. Envision yourself as a spirit that is uninhibited by any resistance or external influences; you can travel to any star or planet instantly, explore the beauty of the universe, and still be in sync with God.

As an example: Imagine the most advanced form of Virtual Reality that can access a super-computer and place you in whichever setting you desire; you can play with the animals, be with your loved ones, listen to the greatest opera, stage or musical performances, or simply relax next to a bubbling brook and enjoy the scenery. You feel no pain, despair, heartache, or negative emotions. God is like a Master Planner who/that guides the universe rather than one who controls it. God is not this mighty ruler who wishes to enslave mankind, but a peaceful coexistence of the spirits or souls of many of our forefathers, past prophets, and all who lived righteously; Cultures change with time. God has always been the same, but our perception of God will and should vary with time.

I was born in Lithuania in 1941, moved to Germany and then to the USA. I speak 3 languages and have traveled to quite a few countries. I am fairly familiar with various cultures.

Transcendentalism is not a religion or religious dogma. It is a concept that can be applied to all religions. In this 21st Century, the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that may be a contributing cause of terrorism, killings and wars between nations.

I am doing my part in an effort to alleviate that problem. I have posted on numerous boards. The surprising results have been that many who practice logical reasoning have suggested as an answer to religious radicals, that they read my writings.

What have you done?

Transcendentalism

pro_gnostic_8

But the underlying proposition is not sound, as it does not necessarily apply to just the Islamic World but to any culture or political body

But the proposition was NOT being applied to other cultures or political bodies but specifically to the Islamic World.........the thread name, afterall, is "THE NEW ISLAM"

That’s a laughable assertion: To begin with, Iraq was a secular state that banned religious fundamentalism

I know this!!! Yet again, you make a critique based on your mis-reading (or miscomprehension) of anothers statement which you have the temerity to dismiss as laughable judged solely on the criteria of your own fallacious analysis. I was referring to the macro-regional context of the issue ........ the Middle East. To save you from scrolling back I will quote the pertinent sentence again: namely that the American presence in Iraq may well have a positive effect in counterbalancing the influence of radical fundamentalism in the Middle East.

Ahh... the spectre of Islamofascism. So why does it carry a significant terrorist threat to free societies?

I'm sorry, but you've somewhat lost me there. By your question are you implying that there is not a current or future threat of on-going terrorism against the West? Or are you genuinely querying WHY such a threat exists?

And when does that right to defend democracy become authoritarianism?
When did democracy become so absolute as to deny others the right to either change or reject it?

Those who try to change it are revolutionaries, by definition. Me, I kind of like Western democracy and society the way it is, but that's a personal thing ...I understand that. And democracy defending itself is not by any stretch of the imagination authoritarian behaviour.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by kkawohl
What have you done?

I was born in Italy in 1971, moved to Ireland, but have also lived in a number of countries over the years, on an off, including Spain and Croatia. I speak 3 languages and have travelled to quite a few countries. I am fairly familiar with various cultures and very familiar with a few. Hope that answers your query.

However, you’ll forgive me if I don’t respond to the bulk of your post, but we were not discussing metaphysics. In turn I not you didn’t respond to the bulk of my post and the questions therein.

I have no interest in or objection to your philosophy, only that it appears to promote (at least you are) the supremacism of one culture over an other. Indeed, over all others, from what I can make out. Also, I note that you advocate force to implement this culture over others, in at least one case.

Ultimately, as I’ve already said; I only see another American supremacist here.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
But the proposition was NOT being applied to other cultures or political bodies but specifically to the Islamic World.........the thread name, afterall, is "THE NEW ISLAM"

And what was the regime change and democratisation of Serbia all about then? Regardless of whether you thought it a good idea or not, the same principle of unilateral regime change applied there too, and last time I looked Serbia was in Europe.

Are you so trusting that you would assume that such an expansionist principle would not be extended elsewhere in the World? Or are you one who welcomes Pax Americana?

I know this!!! Yet again, you make a critique based on your mis-reading (or miscomprehension) of anothers statement which you have the temerity to dismiss as laughable judged solely on the criteria of your own fallacious analysis. I was referring to the macro-regional context of the issue ........ the Middle East. To save you from scrolling back I will quote the pertinent sentence again: namely that the American presence in Iraq may well have a positive effect in counterbalancing the influence of radical fundamentalism in the Middle East.

To which I answered: “That’s a laughable assertion: To begin with, Iraq was a secular state that banned religious fundamentalism. It is now that the Americans have liberated Iraq that fundamentalist groups are gaining ground, not before”. Now I’ll spell it out for you – the USA ironically removed one of the few secular governments in the Middle East and opened up a Pandora’s box, whereby the radical fundamentalism is gaining in Iraq and inflamed the nationalist sensibilities of every Arab nation in the region, further assisting the popularity of such radical fundamentalist groups.

To then argue that this may well have a positive effect in counterbalancing the influence of radical fundamentalism in the Middle East, is a completely laughable assertion, born out by the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Iraq and the increase in anti-American demonstrations and even terrorist attacks in the Middle East.

I'm sorry, but you've somewhat lost me there. By your question are you implying that there is not a current or future threat of on-going terrorism against the West? Or are you genuinely querying WHY such a threat exists?

The latter. Go on. I’m dieing to know how it’s all their fault.

Those who try to change it are revolutionaries, by definition. Me, I kind of like Western democracy and society the way it is, but that's a personal thing ...I understand that. And democracy defending itself is not by any stretch of the imagination authoritarian behaviour.

And when does democracy defending itself stop being democratic? When does the suspension of democratic right and process become such that we are no more democratic than the old German Democratic Republic? If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck, pro_gnostic_8...

kkawohl

Corinthian,

Supremacy means greatest power or superiority which at the present time is applicable to the USA. In any society police power is sometimes required to quell violence that can be a detriment to, and spill over into other societies. Sometimes force is required to counterbalance skewed forces that oppress and enslave their own people. (not to implement our culture) The USA has been pushed into the job of acting as the police power for the world. What would the end result have been in Yugoslavia if the USA had not intervened?

Why do you think that Americans get involved in world affairs and have their sons and daughters die for the causes and strife of other countries? The way that I see it now is that Americans will fight for and die for causes to stop the oppression of other peoples rights. The end results are democracy. Democracy for the people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Palestine and ALL Arabs.

Also, Corinthian, a superiority complex sometimes comes into play when one corrects another for misspelling OPEC which in some countries is spelled OPEK and then stating OPEC is not spelt (European wheat) with a ‘K’ as posted by you on 01-06-2003 08:1. Also when one accuses another of supremacism (if such a word exists) one should get the facts straight.

Kurt

kkawohl

Corinthian,

When I asked “What have you done?” I meant what have you done toward helping to stem the tide of the contributing causes of terrorism, killings and wars between nations?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by kkawohl
Supremacy means greatest power or superiority which at the present time is applicable to the USA. In any society police power is sometimes required to quell violence that can be a detriment to, and spill over into other societies.

When it spills into another society it’s called an invasion. And your definition of superiority seems to spill out onto how one should govern one’s nation, and run one’s economy too? That’s dangerously close to calling yourself Herrenvolk there...

Sometimes force is required to counterbalance skewed forces that oppress and enslave their own people. (not to implement our culture) The USA has been pushed into the job of acting as the police power for the world. What would the end result have been in Yugoslavia if the USA had not intervened?

They would have worked out their issues on their own, over time. And you spoke of the shortsightedness of the human condition?

Why do you think that Americans get involved in world affairs and have their sons and daughters die for the causes and strife of other countries?

Protection of economic interests dressed up with patriotism?

The way that I see it now is that Americans will fight for and die for causes to stop the oppression of other peoples rights.

And what if they don’t want your help? What if they don’t want your intervention, your involvement? Such conviction in one’s own righteousness is normally confined to zealots.

The end results are democracy. Democracy for the people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Palestine and ALL Arabs.

The result appears to be a puppet state in Afghanistan, not dissimilar to the one that was set up by the Soviets. No form of democracy at present in Iraq and already certain groups are being barred from democratic participation, because of Iranian (who’s last general election had a higher turnout than the US presidential election) links, and friendly meetings with the authoritarian regimes of Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Kuwait.

The evidence doesn’t look good, Kurt.

Also, Corinthian, a superiority complex sometimes comes into play when one corrects another for misspelling OPEC which in some countries is spelled OPEK and then stating OPEC is not spelt (European wheat) with a ‘K’ as posted by you on 01-06-2003 08:1. Also when one accuses another of supremacism (if such a word exists) one should get the facts straight.

And there was I thinking that we were posting in English and OPEC stood for the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries. Silly me :rolleyes:



Edit: Amended to fix opec.org link

The Corinthian

Originally posted by kkawohl
When I asked “What have you done?” I meant what have you done toward helping to stem the tide of the contributing causes of terrorism, killings and wars between nations?

Not invaded them, or supported regimes that would do likewise.

Abdiel

Seems like there's a gaping hole in the middle of kkawohl's logic to me. Namely that he assumes that the US is right...

Im sorry but invading another country because of unfounded claims of weapons of mass destruction is itself terrorism. The US will never win a war against terrorism, especially when they engage in terrorism themselves. What about the anti-Castro militant groups in Florida who are openly arming themselves to go to war with Cuba? Does the US regard these people as terrorists ? No strangely enough, they dont.

The US assumes that whatever they decide must be "right" for everyone. In 10 years time will they have won their war on terrorism ? I think they'll have twice as many enemies as they've ever had.

In the words of Albert Einstein : "Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding".

popinfresh

kkawohl, you seem very bet up with propeganda to me. Bush doesn't give a flying fcuk about peace in the middle east. Basically the US economy is on a tight rope and they need money. And we all know Iraq = oil = money. But well Bush can't say he's invading Iraq for his oil because the American people wouldn't allow that. How come he doesnt invade all the African countries with evil leaders? why? Because it doesn't benefit the US in any way. And have you seen news reports lately, the occupying US forces are 21st century black and Tans.

kkawohl

The topic is - The New Islam

I originally stated, “When democracy is installed in Iraq, it will have a snow-ball effect with other Islam ruled countries. Chechnya will soon receive autonomy for self-rule but will still be under Russian control. With USA help the Iraq people will be the most prosperous of all Muslim nations and it is they who will unite the Islam tribes. (With USA help) Iraq oil wells will soon have a daily output of over 10 million barrels a day. (for the benefit of the Iraq people, not the USA) The power of OPEC and the Saudi Arabia control over it will soon be greatly diminished or eliminated.”

Islam ruled countries breed religious fanaticism that effect terrorism in other countries. A democratic government can not be governed by people who impose their religious beliefs on others. The USA and other countries have been attacked by Islam fanatics who have the skewed belief that they are fighting for Islam and that the end result of their deaths will be rewarded by Allah.

When the spirit of Muhammad looks upon the earth and upon the grief of his followers, his spirit is saddened. His message is for mankind to come to its senses and stop all stupidity; stop all the fighting and killings. Any man who cuts short the life of another before that person has a chance to have his spirit establish communications with Allah, kills that man’s spirit and as surely as Allah exists, the soul of the one who kills another, whether a martyr or whether one believes it is for Allah’s cause; HIS SOUL WILL DIE AND WILL NOT BE WITH ALLAH.

Is the USA right by killing innocent Muslims?... NO... Are Islam fanatics right by killing innocent people?...NO...They will all suffer the consequences for their stupidity...IT MUST END.

Kurt Kawohl

The slogan "I Am A Transcendentalist" will revolutionize, modernize and bring ALL religions into the 21st Century, and with Allah's blessings.

" I Am A Transcendentalist "

The Corinthian

Originally posted by kkawohl
The topic is - The New Islam

In fairness, you can call it what you want, but it was you who began promoting the concept that American values, democracy and culture was in some way superior to others and the solution for all of the Middle East’s problems. People here, who are largely European and not American (so it’s hardly surprising we might be a little offended) have only been rebutting these assertions.

I originally stated, “When democracy is installed in Iraq, it will have a snow-ball effect with other Islam ruled countries. Chechnya will soon receive autonomy for self-rule but will still be under Russian control. With USA help the Iraq people will be the most prosperous of all Muslim nations and it is they who will unite the Islam tribes.

You stated the assumptions that:

1. Iraq would indeed become a free democracy, and
2. this would have some form of democratic snowball effect on other Islamic countries (presumably a US military snowball)

Both are assumptive and as has been demonstrated in previous posts, highly questionable - so repeating yourself without addressing the points addressed will not get you anywhere.

You further bring up the question of Chechnya, whose origins are questionably related to the present War on Terror. Finally in the above you spew out some form of pseudo-prophecy about uniting the Islam tribes (which is deduced from I don’t know what).

(With USA help) Iraq oil wells will soon have a daily output of over 10 million barrels a day. (for the benefit of the Iraq people, not the USA) The power of OPEC and the Saudi Arabia control over it will soon be greatly diminished or eliminated.”

This, of course makes no sense.

OPEC is a cartel of oil producing nations, designed to control the price level of oil to the economic benefit of member nations. Destroying such a cartel will only benefit the buyer, who can then buy oil at a lower rate. The US, Europe and the rest of the oil importing world would of course benefit, OPEC members such as Iraq, forced to sell oil at a lower rate would not.

Islam ruled countries breed religious fanaticism that effect terrorism in other countries. A democratic government can not be governed by people who impose their religious beliefs on others. The USA and other countries have been attacked by Islam fanatics who have the skewed belief that they are fighting for Islam and that the end result of their deaths will be rewarded by Allah.

Of course, one has to consider that the origin of most of all this anti-Western sentiment felt in the Middle East may have something to do with nationalism too. After all, from European imperialism, through to American support for Israel and military interventions, we can hardly be seen as blameless, can we?

Now, I’m not suggesting some form of Politically Correct Guilt Trip and all have some kind of Dead White Men Group Hug, but it should be noted that placing the blame simply on Islam alone is a bit simplistic.

When the spirit of Muhammad looks upon the earth and upon the grief of his followers, his spirit is saddened. His message is for mankind to come to its senses and stop all stupidity; stop all the fighting and killings. Any man who cuts short the life of another before that person has a chance to have his spirit establish communications with Allah, kills that man’s spirit and as surely as Allah exists, the soul of the one who kills another, whether a martyr or whether one believes it is for Allah’s cause; HIS SOUL WILL DIE AND WILL NOT BE WITH ALLAH.

Sure. Whatever. You were talking about “Islam ruled countries breed religious fanaticism” too, a second ago before this beautiful piece of religious rhetoric - and given it is religious rhetoric it requires no further response.

Is the USA right by killing innocent Muslims?... NO... Are Islam fanatics right by killing innocent people?...NO...They will all suffer the consequences for their stupidity...IT MUST END.

Of course it must end, but you’re approaching the problem from the mindset of someone who is absolutely convinced of his own sides almost divine righteousness, and then surreally condemning another side, that is absolutely convinced of their own divine righteousness, of fanaticism. You argue that they should be shown the way, even if you have to kill them in the process.

That is the irony that prompted me to respond to you originally, that your argument is no less fundamentalist than those you seek to oppose, or as Nietzsche wrote; "Do not do battle with monsters, lest you become a monster".

kkawohl

Getting back to.....The New Islam

Islam ruled countries breed religious fanaticism that effect terrorism in other countries. A democratic government can not be governed by people who impose their religious beliefs on others. The USA and other countries have been attacked by Islam fanatics who have the skewed belief that they are fighting for Islam and that the end result of their deaths will be rewarded by Allah.

By pointing out a flaw and reason for terrorism and violence in the name of religion, my only intent is to make people aware of the futility and intellectual gullibility of societies which have not progressed their religious beliefs since the Middle Ages.

Kurt Kawohl

Transcendentalism is the rationality that should be applied to ALL religions.

amp

kkawohl this forum is not here to facilitate evangilism, this forum is for debating issues. If you refuse to engage in debate and return to evangilising I will be forced to ban you.

I'll ban you if you go against the charter and argue with me on this.

Tread carefully.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by kkawohl
By pointing out a flaw and reason for terrorism and violence in the name of religion, my only intent is to make people aware of the futility and intellectual gullibility of societies which have not progressed their religious beliefs since the Middle Ages.

Have I not rationally pointed out the numerous flaws in your argument without adequate, or frankly any, response? How are you then any different to them in this regard?

Perhaps if you repeat your message enough times reason will bend to it?

Maybe not.

Talliesin

This is the funnies thread in ages.

At first I thought it was a troll, and kkawohl was playing at being the stereotypical dumb yank with notions of Iraq being an Islamic-run country (it wasn't, indeed Hussein was very keen to distance himself from religion until the first gulf war when he suddenly became a lot more devout upon finding an infidel army on his doorstep) and how a Pax Americana was going to save the world.

Now as such it was hardly surprising that he would move towards the kind of stuff Germanny was saying in the 1930s, and the British Empire before then, I thought it was all part of the troll.

But to start proselytising transcendentalism when the early transcendentalists famously opposed American involvement in foreign wars, in particular the term "Civil Disobedience" comes from Thoreau's peaceful protests against the US-Mexican war. That's just too funny to be deliberate, either kkawohl is one of the stupidest people ever or he's got a hell of a brass-neck when he's trolling.

The reference to the Middle Ages is brilliant. Again it's perfectly possible that it's just a stupid reference to a time that someone with an 8 year old's level of education would think of as being the epitome of religious oppression. However it's possible that he knows fine rightly that the Middle Ages were the Golden Age of Islam, when the Islamic world extended into Iberia, Jews and Christians were tolerated, and great advances were made in mathematics, medicine, and astronomy, hospitals were invented etc. I really is hard to say.

Whether it's a troll or genuine idiocy this is definitely the funniest thread since the ninja one on after hours.

kkawohl

In response to the illustrious intellectual Talliesin who invents his own vocabulary with words like Germanny and proselytising and also obviously misinterprets what he/she reads:

Please refresh my memory…where did I state that Iraq was “an Islamic-run country”?…though there is a possibility that Iraq, if left unsupervised, may turn into a Islamic ruled country that would breed religious fanaticism and effects terrorism in other countries.

The term Transcendentalism was derived from the philosopher Kant, who called "all knowledge transcendental which is concerned not with objects but with our mode of knowing objects." The roots of the American philosophy ran deep into German and English Romanticism. From German philosophers such as Fichte and Herder, it received its mystic impulse; from Goethe, Novalis, Jean-Paul, Heine, and the other great German Romantic poets it acquired its imagistic language and themes. Acquaintance with German thought, by and large, filtered through English translations--Coleridge and Carlyle's among the best--and acquaintance with these and the work of other English Romantics such as Blake, Wordsworth, Shelley, Keats, and Byron enriched the Americans' perspectives as well.

In the words of Ralph Waldo Emerson, "We will walk on our own feet; we will work with our own hands; we will speak our own minds...A nation of men will for the first time exist, because each believes himself inspired by the Divine Soul which also inspires all men."

The Transcendentalists can be understood in one sense by their context - - by what they are rebelling against, what they see as the current situation and therefore - - attempt to correct what they see as misperceptions within societies.

I concur that a part of the “Middle Ages” was the Golden Age of Islam, when the Islamic world extended into Iberia, Jews and Christians were tolerated, and great advances were made in mathematics, medicine, and astronomy, hospitals were invented etc…, but IMHO religious misperceptions and strife today amongst Islam, Christianity and Judaism has reverted their religious ideology back to the Middle Ages and has not advanced therefrom.

Obviously there are other numerous other causes that contribute toward terrorism but in this 21st Century, the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that are a major contributing cause of terrorism, killings and wars between nations. Belief in a God/Allah who causes catastrophes, punishes people and who created the universe out of nothing as if by magic was brought about by hysteria and superstition. This thought process needs to be reassessed and brought up to date. Open-minded people must use common sense to determine whether this God/Allah was incorrectly perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone era.

Talliesin, If you think that “Whether it's a troll or genuine idiocy this is definitely the funniest thread since the ninja one on after hours” … then your life is apparently humorless … and I deeply sympathize with your plight.

Transcendentalism is the rationality that should be applied to ALL religions.