Donegal Trial For New Broadband Delivery Mechanism, Tethered Balloons

spongebob

A trial in the wesht for this technology would be nice too Story .

It seems that the whole of Ireland, north and south, could be done by 7-9 of these. The UK Cabinet had an e-Stuff Guru advising them until recently, Prof Norton. The Prof had an interesting comment about this kind of technology if it COULD be made to work....he cant see a big problem himself.

"It is quite feasible but has to overcome the attitude in telecommunications that things have been done a certain way of 20 years and have to been done the same way for the next 20 years," he said.
If and when such a solution comes along, it could provide an answer to the problem of rural broadband as well as shooting BT's business model "out of the water" said Professor Norton.

But HUSH! It seems that Donegal will be included in the trial and that the service , uncontended 1Mbit , could be available as far south as Cavan and Leitrim. This Map indicates that there will be something hovering over the Barnesmore very very very soon. Comreg never told us about this plan, and neither did Dermot Ahern.

If you see a carload of Biddies cruising around south Armagh, offering to help decommission a few SAM 7's then that means that the technology works at a reasonable price.

M

Trebor

cool can't wait, should only be about 20 years before one comes to Ireland?

they could attached one to the spike and run a fiber cable down it. then it could have a use!

spongebob

....don't stop at borders Trebor.

One in Crossmaglen could do the East coast including Dundalk, Drogheda and Navan Kells Monaghan.

M

flav0rflav

I've looked at this tech before, and it seems like a very reasonable option, particularly for remote locations. It's a nice middle between satellite (bad latency, cost) and wireless (distance).

Eurorunner

For someone based out in the sticks, this technology is music to my ears. The fact that it will be faster than dsl just makes it sweeter.


Can only hope that it goes commercial in the UK real soon - cos as we all know, there isnt a chance in hell of the powers that be in this country being innovative - & having the balls to look at this seriously.

Reality is that it will probably take years for it to reach these parts (west of Irl.) but it will probably arrive before €ircon/Esat & co. can offer broadband to my house.


Send up those balloons (& stick an assortment of €ircon executives in there - hang em out to dry) lol.:ninja:

spongebob

Unlike the UK, Skylinc essentially have one point of contact in Ireland.

In the UK they must sort out the MoT ,CAA ,Oftel, The Radio Authority and the MoD befoe they can go nationwide, that could take years. Here in Ireland it is much simpler to navigate the bureacracy and to help our cousins in mid Ulster too.

Here the Minister for Aviation hazards and Communications is the same geezer, our military only have 3 jets.

They need only go to Dermot Ahern himself for all the the Aviation and Communications permissions. He then gets Comreg to allocate them a slab of bandwidth and off we go.

M

bk

# It works! Technical field trials throughout September 2002 exceeded all expectations
# Each LIBRA super-cell has a MASSIVE coverage of 2,000 sq miles (equivalent coverage of up to 2,000 traditional wireless base stations)
# 87% of UK SME business locations will be accessible from only 18 LIBRA platforms
# Scaleable for up to 30,000 non-contending subscribers per super-cell
# Fast 2-way service - just like more expensive fibre options
# No requirement for a separate uplink such as modem, ISDN or leased line
# Service is fully available whether you live in a town or in the most remote cottage in the country
# Network roll out achieved for 10% of equivalent ground station costs
# End user rates targeted as 'Fibre rate service at DSL prices'
# Individual customer service rates from 1MB/s -10MB/s
# Mounted on an elevated platform. A proven technology with over 30 years of operation
# Regulatory approvals already granted for trials

Wow, just last week I was talking about this idea with a few friends. Very interesting idea.

Maybe some of the Irish wireless carriers could talk to these guys about licensing it in Ireland. This is exaclty the type of technology we should be looking at, just one baloon would cover the whole of Dublin and surrounding areas and probably a lot cheaper then rolling out lots of wireless base stations.

Mr_Man

If Eircom ever get around to adopting this technology they will have no problem finding the hot air needed to fill the balloons, just point them in the direction of their marketing and sales people.

M.

Eurorunner

Dont want €ircons grubby hands anywhere near this wonderful technology. sssh! dont tell them lol.

The best deal for us would be a partnership between skylinc & UTV internet.

Capt'n Midnight

ie. something like a U2 with transmitters - main reason was that aeroplane engines have loads of power... But that is the Yanks for you - no finesse

Anyone know what the regs on tethered stuff is ??
'cos you don't need go go up very high at all to go long distances...

Where can we find a barrage ballon ?

Or you could use a tethered electric helicopter....

Microwave transmission is about 50% efficient - and the first such remotely powered electric flyer was made in the '50's - but probably not a good idea for wifi....

===========================================
Found this a while ago

http://www.bullnet.co.uk/shops/test/totex.htm
NATO ISSUE MADE BY TOTEX TYPE GS120, 500GRM.
Not had the chance to inflate one yet... we expect it to be about 7' in diameter.
Made of Latex, printed NATO logo, what more can we say?

Note: Air weighs about 1Kg per m3 so if you can fill the ballon with helium (or hydrogen - BANG!) you should be able to lift a few Kg - with Natural gas you would get less than half the lift ( WOOSSSHHHH !)

Eurorunner

To all isp's who would consider using this technology......

I can offer you ...
one baloon tethering station - tethered to my house in the West of Ireland - with zero ground rent. I humbly implore you to provide me with broadband connectivity in return. lol

Geez, whats one got to do for a proper connection:rolleyes:

Stonemason

You could have put this bit in with your other quote it would have saved me a few moments of Optimism.

The idea of airborne broadband is gaining ground although Professor Jim Norton, the Cabinet Office's former director of e-commerce, said it could be between five and 10 years before such solutions become commercial reality

OOOO well at least it would have made any Eircon bosses reading this to suffer a sphincter spasm for a short while.

De Rebel

Originally posted by Stonemason
You could have put this bit in with your other quote it would have saved me a few moments of Optimism.

Jim Norton also said....... "It is quite feasible but has to overcome the attitude in telecommunications that things have been done a certain way of 20 years and have to been done the same way for the next 20 years,"

He appears to be saying that the major obstacle is the reluctance on the telecomms industry to run with the technology. IOFFL exists to overcome "bad attitude" obstacles. If that truthfully is the only obstacle then it stands as a challenge to us to overcome it and push for its adoption here.

Paddy20

Lets just hope Dermot Ahern has the savvy to talk immediately too Skylinc!.

Just because a UK based Professor Norton, a former Director of e- commerce in the British Governments Cabinet office, expresses a somewhat negative opinion. Is no reason why Ireland should not grab the nettle and let it run if the technology works. As bks post states!.

Ireland could lead Europe, for a change and why not?...

Paddy20.

spongebob

On the map of balloon tethering locations one of them (centre of the circle) is about slap bang on the Barnesmore Gap, Map Here .

Get BallyBofey chamber of commerce to write them a nice thank you and invite them over....

Keep Pat the Cope away from them.

M

bk

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
ie. something like a U2 with transmitters - main reason was that aeroplane engines have loads of power... But that is the Yanks for you - no finesse

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the ODTR testing (or at least looking at) using planes to get broadband to the islands off the west coast.

The government supporting this technology in Ireland isn't too far fetched at all, it could perhaps even allow the government to at least work towards the 5mbit (1 - 2mbit might be more realistic with this tech) promise for everyone by 2005.

Given the amount of cash the government poured into Esat to DSL enable 40 exchanges (10 million), the fiber rings project and wireless project, I would imagine it would be quiet easy to set up a country wide network for 10 million.

Paddy20

Tethered Balloons.

Muck,

I have just perused with great interest the website of UK based SkyLINC Ltd. Thanks to your link!.

I particularly like the following statements:-

1: Offers a fast and effective solution to countries with little or no communications infrastructure!.

2: The massive coverage of each base-station is achieved by having the transmitters at a height of 1.5km. {This has the "added benefit" of addressing any public concerns with regard to transmission - health risks!.

3: UK: DTI development award received!.

4: *Businesses & individual customers get "Quality Broadband access" at [Affordable prices!].

IMHO the possibilities are endless. Almost to good too be true.

I will be busy for some time talking too some very influential people about this opportunity for Irelands Internet users.

Finally, is it not wonderful to see Donegal recognised so prominently, even though it took a UK based commercial business as well as UTVip too finally acknowledge our existance.

Paddy20;)

Stonemason

Don’t get me wrong I would love to see this come to Ireland and yes I really do believe it could be the quickest cheapest and all round best solution to Irelands BB in rural areas (and cities) problems.

But unlike the UK who may have Telco’s fighting change we here in Ireland appear to have a government who for reasons of there own don’t much like change in EIRCOM, s industry either.

What gets me is that lately we had the students (fair play to em)get the TDs to back down on charging for third level education in a matter of weeks yet allot of these same students will more than likely have to leave Ireland for jobs simply because there will be no industry here for them to work in.

As some above threads have stated the cost to set something like this up would be minimal compared to laying fiber and upgrading exchanges but the will from our government is just not there. Is it not possible that considering allot of people now just use mobiles for calls and only use land lines mainly for net access that eircom would be very badly hit by a service like this, so much so it may not survive ?.Is it also possible considering how many people are employed by Eircom and not forgetting the embarrassment factor of having a recently privatized public service go tits up would all add to a government’s desire to slow things down as much as possible.

If the will was there this service could be up and running in no time it would hopefully solve more problems than it would create but I don’t think Bertie and the boys can see past next week.

All that said i would be very very happy to be proved wrong and the government actualy turned arround and sorted a nice little link up between E.S.B.s fiber network and skylinks balloon delivery system to actualy provide a 5mb BB connection to EVERY irish home two years before the EU starts bitching at them about why they havent even got narrow band into half of irelands homes.

You can lead a donkey to water but you cant make it drink.

Nuphor

What a fantastic way to deliver broadband. Could we get some UTV feedback about this? This would be a massive money spinner. It'd cost very little to implement, the whole island would have quick and cheap access.

Someone prove to me that it isn't just a pipe dream.

Paddy20

Nuphor,

I have posted a direct question relating to this matter in the Scott Taunton interview thread.

I just hope he reads it and we get some UTV Internet feedback from him?..

Paddy20;)

Eurorunner

Good idea Paddy. This combination would be the best case scenario for irish internet users.

Dustaz

Im confused, but what have UTV got to do with this?

They are in DIRECT competition with this company in the north. I dont see what one has to do with the other?

Urban Weigl

Skylinc are only going to provide the technology; from what I could see they have no plans to become an ISP.

As such, UTV could technically become a customer and use the technology in Ireland.

flav0rflav

Why all the excitement about balloon-pie in the sky when there is copper and fibre already in the ground?

Is it because it may actually be real competition?

Or, people just aren't bothered to actually push the stuff that's there and works?

Is it the easier option to jump on a helium filled balloon-wagon, rather than push?

Occidental

Originally posted by flav0rflav
Why all the excitement about balloon-pie in the sky when there is copper and fibre already in the ground?

Is it because it may actually be real competition?

Or, people just aren't bothered to actually push the stuff that's there and works?

Is it the easier option to jump on a helium filled balloon-wagon, rather than push?

It's a way of bypassing another 10 years of bull****ting from Eircom, Esat and all the other telco's.

The stuff that's there doesn't work, that's the problem. We are up to our necks in fibre and copper, but we keep being told it's not our ball and we are not allowed to play with it. Well here's someone with a new ball which works beyond the southside of Dublin and doesn't require the magical touches of an Eircom technician.

Lets see if they'll let us play with it.

bk

SkyLINC have gotten a mention in The Register:

Broadband by blimp idea floated

PeterG

One of the points they give is that one blimp can have upto 30,000 uncontended users. But what happens after that? If you have one covering the entire Dublin (for example) region then that limit will likely be exceeded. Do extra users mean contention comes into play or is it just an absolute limit?

PeterG

Paddy20

Quote from *BBC NEWS ONLINE:-

" SkyLINC has been talking to a variety of internet service providers, about introducing such a system and is hopeful that it will have commercial contracts in the next year"

Also, Quote:- Professor Jim Norton. The UK governments former Cabinet Office Director of e-commerce!:- " It could provide an answer to the problem of rural broadband, as well as shooting BTs business model "Out of the water".

Paddy20.

dahamsta

One of the points they give is that one blimp can have upto 30,000 uncontended users. But what happens after that?

Send up another blimp?

adam

bk

Originally posted by PeterG
One of the points they give is that one blimp can have upto 30,000 uncontended users. But what happens after that? If you have one covering the entire Dublin (for example) region then that limit will likely be exceeded. Do extra users mean contention comes into play or is it just an absolute limit?

PeterG

The contention is a bit misleading, the conection from you to the blimp and back down might be uncontended, however their backhaul would have to be contended.

Here is a quote from adslguide.org.uk
on the issue:

For example a cell with 15,000 users at just 1Mbps each, would need 15Gbps of bandwidth, that is not a cheap leased line.

Therefore the backhaul would have to be contended.

This is pretty much the same story with ADSL, there is no contention between you and the exchange, the contention occurs later.

30,000 should be fine, even for dublin, if it isn't just float another blimp.

Eurorunner

<Why all the excitement about balloon-pie in the sky when there is copper and fibre already in the ground?/>


Flav,

That copper and fibre is never going to be stretched to where i'm at (the sticks!) - and there are plenty in Ireland going to be in the same boat. Furthermore, it totally bypasses €ircon's network - they wouldnt have control over it - so they couldnt **** it up - unless of course they went into bizz with Skylinc:eek:



It may be pie in the sky, it may have problems that we are not aware of ...we just dont know yet, but anythings worth pursueing at this stage.

Kramer

Originally posted by PeterG
one blimp can have upto 30,000 uncontended users. But what happens after that.....Dublin

What ya think they put up that big spike in O Connell street for then?

It's a big "blimp tether"

Should be able to tether 5 or 6 blimps to that big spike ww)

Paddy20

If you would really like to see this promising new technology, which already has a proven succesful track record in the States!.

Then why not encourage Scott Taunton and the UTV Internet team to immediately enter commercial negotiations with SkyLINC Ltd. Who are looking for ISPs to make use of thier plans.

Post your encouragement to UTVip under the thread * UTV insight interview with Scott Taunton!. On this page.


Before that abomination called Eircom, gets in on the action. Just too protect thier interests of course by holding everything up while maintaining the status quo.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Eh?..

Paddy20.

BigEejit

This all seems like a good idea ... but there are a lot of better ways to wirelessly get broadband in peoples houses ... I know people who are too far away from likely sites for transmitters wont agree but I can see too many hurdles (political and technical) for this technology .. i.e. it does not have a snowballs chance

Paddy20

BigEejit,

May I just quote *Muck!:- " They need only go to " Dermot Ahern " for ALL the Aviation and Communications permissions " !.
He then gets Comreg to allocate them with a slab of - Bandwidth - and off we go!..

So, what is wrong with that?..

As long as it is in this instance **UTVip, before some bunch of Cowboys.

Paddy20

Trebor

Originally posted by BigEejit
This all seems like a good idea ... but there are a lot of better ways to wirelessly get broadband in peoples houses ... I know people who are too far away from likely sites for transmitters wont agree but I can see too many hurdles (political and technical) for this technology .. i.e. it does not have a snowballs chance

there will be no political objections as long as they provide any ISP with access to the ballons and not just one as that would be uncompetitive(?)

spongebob

One must explain carefully to Eircom that 'unbundling' in this case does not involve the physical removal of a cable from the ground just because a Force 10 is forecast that night .

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by Trebor
there will be no political objections as long as they provide any ISP with access to the ballons and not just one as that would be uncompetitive(?)

Now there's an idea, if this all turns out to work as well as had been hoped after more testing, the government could launch 7 of these across Ireland, and resell capacity on the network to ISP's.

They could all be on one fibre network so only a single interconnect in Dublin would be required to cover the whole country. ISP's and telephone companies would of course have to provide the backhaul themselves -- all the government would be selling is capacity on the network.

It might just work.

Trebor

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
Now there's an idea, if this all turns out to work as well as had been hoped after more testing, the government could launch 7 of these across Ireland, and resell capacity on the network to ISP's.

They could all be on one fibre network so only a single interconnect in Dublin would be required to cover the whole country. ISP's and telephone companies would of course have to provide the backhaul themselves -- all the government would be selling is capacity on the network.

It might just work.

they could do the same for dsl if they could work up the courage to buy back the copper lines from eircom (compulsury purchase order if nessecary) and then provide the cables to ISP's at cost or if at a profit they could then use the money to upgrade the lines.

bk

Originally posted by Trebor
they could do the same for dsl if they could work up the courage to buy back the copper lines from eircom (compulsury purchase order if nessecary) and then provide the cables to ISP's at cost or if at a profit they could then use the money to upgrade the lines.

Buying back the network would cost at least a billion Euros, never mind all the problems with staff etc.

Giving SkyLINC some funding to setup a couple of balloons attached to the ESB network would cost orders of magnitude less. The 10 million they gave to Esat to unbundle just 40 exchanges would more then enought to cover the cost of this.

Trebor

Originally posted by bk
Buying back the network would cost at least a billion Euros, never mind all the problems with staff etc.

yes, but at least it would be money well spent and not just wasted on some comittee or report. and if they truly believe broadband to be economically viable then they should stick their(our?) money where their mouth is.

also then if we hit another celtic tiger type decade they could invest the money into upgrading the technology as oppossed to eircom just giving it to the consortium.

think long term

SkepticOne

Originally posted by bk
Buying back the network would cost at least a billion Euros, never mind all the problems with staff etc.

Giving SkyLINC some funding to setup a couple of balloons attached to the ESB network would cost orders of magnitude less. The 10 million they gave to Esat to unbundle just 40 exchanges would more then enought to cover the cost of this.

I agree with the general point here. No point in the state buying back a pile of soon to be obsolete copper wires and unionised employees. Rather, spend money where it will bring about the greatest benefit. If these barrage balloons were feasible, then Eircom would either compete or be destroyed.

Agree with Trebor also. No need to spend any more money on useless reports. The time for reports is long past. Now is the time for action.

Trebor

with regards to fibre.

will the govrnment be laying down fibre when it starts buling the new "hubs" and roads for the spatial strategy plan.

or will they as usual just build the road and then wait for a company to come along and ask to dig up the roads to lay the cables?

Victor

Eh, 1,500m is 5,000 feet, which is a navigation hazard. What part of the spectrum would be used?

Originally posted by dahamsta
Send up another blimp?

Actually not needed in Dublin, because of the availibility of mountains / hills for masts. Otherwise, there would be an element of this:

dahamsta

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I agree with the general point here. No point in the state buying back a pile of soon to be obsolete copper wires and unionised employees. Rather, spend money where it will bring about the greatest benefit. If these barrage balloons were feasible, then Eircom would either compete or be destroyed.

Agree with Trebor also. No need to spend any more money on useless reports. The time for reports is long past. Now is the time for action.

Damn straight.

adam

Trebor

Originally posted by Victor
Eh, 1,500m is 5,000 feet, which is a navigation hazard. What part of the spectrum would be used?
Actually not needed in Dublin, because of the availibility of mountains / hills for masts. Otherwise, there would be an element of this:

that would be soooo cool

but the thing about the mountains is that they are mostly on the south side which does not cover all of dublin, where as one of these ballons i belive would, if it was positioned floating about the city centre

bk

Originally posted by Trebor
yes, but at least it would be money well spent and not just wasted on some comittee or report. and if they truly believe broadband to be economically viable then they should stick their(our?) money where their mouth is.

also then if we hit another celtic tiger type decade they could invest the money into upgrading the technology as oppossed to eircom just giving it to the consortium.

think long term

Yes, but for a billion Euro, you could build a much better and more future proof network then the aging and splitter riddled phone network.

Fiber to every city and town in Ireland and then a comprehensive wireless/cable/ip over pwerline last mile technology hanging off the fiber.

This would give you a much superior network with almost unlimited (yes we are limited by light) capability for expansion (they are coming up with ways of transmitting data faster and faster over both fiber and wireless) and it would be far cheaper then buying back the phone network.

This would also give you the ability to expand the network in the future by extending the fiber to every neighbourhood or street corner and then having VDSL or very highspeed shortrange wireless (generally the shorter the distance you need travel, the higher capacity possible with wireless) to every home on the street.

Even further in the future (very long term), you could extend the fiber to every home.

The fiber rings project might actually make this possible, if it is rolled out correctly and managed well. Then we just need companies brave enough to build last mile services on top of it (possibly with government assisitance) and go toe to toe with Eircom.

These companies would need to be a new breed of young, fearless, dynamic, competitive and customer oriented if they are to exceed. I believe UTV, Netsource and the other wireless companies show some of the signs of being just these sort of companies.

The thing about the balloons is bang for your buck, you get a broadband network with very good coverage and speeds for minimal cost and very quick rollout. Plus no objections or delaying tactics possible from Eircom.

It would be best if this was done in such a way that the government helped fund its introduction in Ireland by SkyLINC and then they allow access to it by competing ISPs. In otherwords SkyLINC are just an infrastructure supplier.

Fergus

EIRCOM RESPONDS TO BLIMP BROADBAND THREAT

Trebor

but the cost and the hassle of building a network to rivial eircom would cost much more than €1b think of all the roads that would need to be dug up.

power cables should also be put underground could you imagine if they ran fibre along the lines and you look out you window to see some kid throw a ring/hoop at the wires to see them spark?

also the slow pase at which the govrnment seems to do any building would mean that it would take too long but if they had the already existing wire's they could upgrade them in stages, have afordable broadband within a year and not need to cause major traffic nightmares.

Gavin

As has been pointed out recently on the board, there is already a huge amount of fiber in place in ireland. The vast percentage of it, dark ! there is no need to go putting down more.

The real issue is, and always has been, the last mile, which needs to be made available cheaply and efficiently.

Gav

Victor

Originally posted by Trebor
but the thing about the mountains is that they are mostly on the south side which does not cover all of dublin, where as one of these ballons i belive would, if it was positioned floating about the city centre

OMFG! It has a range of 80km - thats most of the way to Mulligar, Dundalk and Gorey and you don't think it will reach the northside. Do you think the Liffey has magical power to stop radio waves?