A discussion on the rules.

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

Using SF/IRA as a title is an allegation.

Nope, it's hinting at the heavy connection between both, one that as pointed out repeatedly, SF have no problem using when it suits.

There's an intrinsic link between both, nobody disputes that, even Republicans. Now that the IRA is disbanded Republicans want people to not say SF/IRA because it is bad PR for them, it touches on spin doctorism for me.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

Nope, it's hinting at the heavy connection between both, one that as pointed out repeatedly, SF have no problem using when it suits.

There's an intrinsic link between both, nobody disputes that, even Republicans. Now that the IRA is disbanded Republicans want people to not say SF/IRA because it is bad PR for them, it touches on spin doctorism for me.

How can you be intrinsically linked to something that doesn't exist? How can it be allowed when all other 'allegations' have to accompanied by proof?
And it has nothing to do with PR, that is ridiculous. It has everything to do with allowing mature debate on a politics forum.
Moderators keep complaining of 'train wreck' threads when NI or SF are discussed and this is one of the reasons they invariably head towards train wrecks.
A simple ruling banning it's use in would stamp it out. As Godge proved, by making his point about historical connections (nobody is infringeing his right to make that point), there is no need for it in any context.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

How can you be intrinsically linked to something that doesn't exist? How can it be allowed when all other 'allegations' have to accompanied by proof?
And it has nothing to do with PR, that is ridiculous. It has everything to do with allowing mature debate on a politics forum.
Moderators keep complaining of 'train wreck' threads when NI or SF are discussed and this is one of the reasons they invariably head towards train wrecks.
A simple ruling banning it's use in would stamp it out. As Godge proved, by making his point about historical connections (nobody is infringeing his right to make that point), there is no need for it in any context.

I think you misunderstood my posts, I have no problem with the use of SF/IRA or FF/bankers to remind posters of the recent links both have and the legacy effects on both their policies and leaders. The fact that Micheal Martin and Michael McGrath try to disassociate themselves from the bank guarantee has as much effect on me as Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness pretending to be men of democracy.

I will continue to use both where I feel it is appropriate. When time has passed and the generations have moved on and the terms are historical without relevance I will stop but we are a long, long way from that.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

I think you misunderstood my posts.

Being a routine offender in this regard Godge, nobody 'misunderstands' your posts.
Seems you have the support of Boards/Politics forum to continue making an unproven allegation, so well done you.

Nodin

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

I'm don't understand how Sinn Fein/IRA can be regarded as an insult. If Sinn Fein still regards the IRA terrorist campaign as legitimate, why would someone be offended if its link with the IRA is mentioned? It's either something to be ashamed of or it's not.

Its not a question of "shame", its one of accuracy.

Chips Lovell

I believe the discussion was about whether the term constituted abuse.

Nodin

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

I believe the discussion was about whether the term constituted abuse.

Well it does in the fact that it's inaccurate. There is no longer a Provisional IRA.

walshb

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

I believe the discussion was about whether the term constituted abuse.

It's about standards, something that is sorely lacking in many areas of society today!

Chips Lovell

Nodin wrote: »

Well it does in the fact that it's inaccurate. There is no longer a Provisional IRA.

I'm still struggling to see the "abuse through inaccuracy" line. Adopting a similar logic would see terms like the DL wing of Labour being regarded as abuse, since there is no longer a DL.

walshb

Being linked to the IRA has negative connotations. In the 21st century with so much having changed and with the North a now quite decent and peaceful place, I think being linked with a "terrorist" organisation is something that SF would dislike, particularly when that organisation is no longer valid!

K-9

Nodin wrote: »

Its not a question of "shame", its one of accuracy.

Ok, the IRA is disbanded, unarguable.

Are people going to still point out the links between SF and the IRA? Yep.
Is that relevant to a thread about opinion polls which shows SF joint top with FG? Yep.

I'm sorry, Republicans don't want to see anybody use the term SF/IRA, probably because it has negative connotations and was used as a slur by Unionist politicians in the past. But it is a real issue, and just because "they have gone away, you know" doesn't mean the connection disappeared over night.

*Apologies for any offence caused by using the term disappeared.

Nodin

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

I'm still struggling to see the "abuse through inaccuracy" line. Adopting a similar logic would see terms like the DL wing of Labour being regarded as abuse, since there is no longer a DL.

Well Labour/Workers Party is most likely to be the term used, I would have thought, but its much the same thing, as the workers party is defunct.

K-9

Nodin wrote: »

Well Labour/Workers Party is most likely to be the term used, I would have thought, but its much the same thing, as the workers party is defunct.

Stickies, that type of stuff, and yep, an odd poster still drags that shyte up!

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

Using SF/IRA as a title is an allegation.

Not in this case no, it's the showing the links between both, something which nobody denies.

walshb wrote: »

Being linked to the IRA has negative connotations. In the 21st century with so much having changed and with the North a now quite decent and peaceful place, I think being linked with a "terrorist" organisation is something that SF would dislike, particularly when that organisation is no longer valid!

SF don't view the IRA negatively, which makes the whole SF/IRA thing all the more bizarre!

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

Not in this case no, it's the showing the links between both, something which nobody denies.

Except that there is NOTHING to link to.

I don't think it is possible, nor do I expect for moderators to be neutral, but you are supporting the use of unproven allegations here. Forget about what you think about the IRA or SF here for a moment.
Nobody is trying to censor people trying to make SF's historical link to the IRA, what we are asking for is that the use of SF/IRA as an attempt to flame debates be cut out on a 'politics' forum. That is AH behaviour.

walshb

K-9 wrote: »

Not in this case no, it's the showing the links between both, something which nobody denies.



SF don't view the IRA negatively, which makes the whole SF/IRA thing all the more bizarre!

Maybe during the height of the troubles they didn't, but seriously, they cannot have the same sort of connection or affection today as they did back then. Now to be linked with them is more damaging and serious than years gone by. So much has changed in the past few years. The quest for peace and harmony swamped the people of the North. SF have been slowly loosening the grip/connection that the IRA, a now defunct unit, had on them.

K-9

walshb wrote: »

Maybe during the height of the troubles they didn't, but seriously, they cannot have the same sort of connection or affection today as they did back then. Now to be linked with them is more damaging and serious than years gone by. So much has changed in the past few years. The quest for peace and harmony swamped the people of the North. SF have been slowly loosening the grip/connection that the IRA, a now defunct unit, had on them.

Well they seem to be doing all right at polls and elections so I'm not quite sure you are correct!

I don't think it is possible, nor do I expect for moderators to be neutral, but you are supporting the use of unproven allegations here. Forget about what you think about the IRA or SF here for a moment.
Nobody is trying to censor people trying to make SF's historical link to the IRA, what we are asking for is that the use of SF/IRA as an attempt to flame debates be cut out on a 'politics' forum. That is AH behaviour.

It isn't an allegation, it is a connection, no more than people label Gilmore a stickie or from the WP, or FF as the same as the Haughey years. Seriously, I think you need to take a step back here and try to look at it with some objectivity.

All parties have histories that will get dragged up in threads about opinion polls, because well, often that informs their voting preference.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

It isn't an allegation, it is a connection, no more than people label Gilmore a stickie or from the WP, or FF as the same as the Haughey years. Seriously, I think you need to take a step back here and try to look at it with some objectivity.

All parties have histories that will get dragged up in threads about opinion polls, because well, often that informs their voting preference.

It is a DOUBLE allegation.
Using SF/IRA implies/alleges that the IRA still exist and that SF are connected to them.
Both are untrue.
Objectively, why can you not recognise that simple fact?

Again...people are free to make historical connections within posts if it is relevant, I nor anybody I know off has an objection to that, please stop saying that is what we are talking about here.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

Except that there is NOTHING to link to.

I don't think it is possible, nor do I expect for moderators to be neutral, but you are supporting the use of unproven allegations here. Forget about what you think about the IRA or SF here for a moment.
Nobody is trying to censor people trying to make SF's historical link to the IRA, what we are asking for is that the use of SF/IRA as an attempt to flame debates be cut out on a 'politics' forum. That is AH behaviour.

http://socialistunity.com/gerry-adams-writing-guardian-recent-arrest-interrogation-psni/

"I have never disassociated myself from the IRA and I never will".

I am with Gerry Adams on this, I will not disassociate him and Sinn Fein from the IRA.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

http://socialistunity.com/gerry-adams-writing-guardian-recent-arrest-interrogation-psni/

"I have never disassociated myself from the IRA and I never will".

I am with Gerry Adams on this, I will not disassociate him and Sinn Fein from the IRA.

And?
Nobody is saying you cannot associate him or SF of that period with the IRA. Knock yourself out doing that if you wish.

You cannot associate modern SF with the IRA in the trite and insidious way you do, because the IRA do not exist.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

And?
Nobody is saying you cannot associate him or SF of that period with the IRA. Knock yourself out doing that if you wish.

You cannot associate modern SF with the IRA in the trite and insidious way you do, because the IRA do not exist.

Adams associates himself with the IRA, why wouldn't I associate him and his colleagues? I really don't understand your point. All the SF supporters have given up on this one but you still continue to harp on about it even though you don't support the party. Why does it bother you?

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

Adams associates himself with the IRA, why wouldn't I associate him and his colleagues? I really don't understand your point. All the SF supporters have given up on this one but you still continue to harp on about it even though you don't support the party. Why does it bother you?

There is no IRA and SF are not associated with them...they cannot be.

Why does it bother me?...because people like you attempt to tar all members of SF with the same brush and all republicans.
The thread where your friend Alastair got banned on, being a case in point.

Nodin

Godge wrote: »

http://socialistunity.com/gerry-adams-writing-guardian-recent-arrest-interrogation-psni/

"I have never disassociated myself from the IRA and I never will".

I am with Gerry Adams on this, I will not disassociate him and Sinn Fein from the IRA.

As long as I can say "blueshirts" and "stickies" in relation to their modern counterparts. Othewise its a double standard.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

There is no IRA and SF are not associated with them...they cannot be.

Why does it bother me?...because people like you attempt to tar all members of SF with the same brush and all republicans.
The thread where your friend Alastair got banned on, being a case in point.

I don't tar all republicans as SF/IRA, only members and supporters of SF.

I don't know which variety (or all?) of republicanism you support nor the acronym attached to it so I can't tar you with any brush nor do I.

Alastair is not a friend of mine, last I checked.

Godge

Nodin wrote: »

As long as I can say "blueshirts" and "stickies" in relation to their modern counterparts. Othewise its a double standard.

Blueshirts is an outdated historical label, nobody or no policy of FG can be linked to the Blueshirt era.

SF/IRA is a factual association in the words of the SF leader.

Lab/WP is also factual as there are still former members of the WP in Labour.

However, I would see "provos", "stickies" as terms of abuse, rather than factual links as there is a connotation to those terms.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Nodin

Godge wrote: »

Blueshirts is an outdated historical label, nobody or no policy of FG can be linked to the Blueshirt era.

SF/IRA is a factual association in the words of the SF leader.

Lab/WP is also factual as there are still former members of the WP in Labour.

However, I would see "provos", "stickies" as terms of abuse, rather than factual links as there is a connotation to those terms.

........a factual past association.

Nodin

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

...former association....

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

Blueshirts is an outdated historical label, nobody or no policy of FG can be linked to the Blueshirt era.

'Yes they can be linked, I am of the belief that Enda is a secret Blueshirt (who I believe still exist) so from now on I am going to use the name FG/Blueshirt.

See how ridiculous your point is now?
You are making a subjective, unproven decision. The type of stuff worthy of AH.
But the mods here seem to be happy to allow that.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

'Yes they can be linked, I am of the belief that Enda is a secret Blueshirt (who I believe still exist) so from now on I am going to use the name FG/Blueshirt.

See how ridiculous your point is now?
You are making a subjective, unproven decision. The type of stuff worthy of AH.
But the mods here seem to be happy to allow that.

Broken analogy, rather silly now.

Adams has said he will never disassociate himself from the IRA. I have provided the link.

Kenny was never associated with the Blueshirts. Unless you have a link with a direct quote?

I really don't get why someone who doesn't support SF is pushing this so far. There have been reasonable responses from mods and others on this issue that have explained it clearly so I think we can leave it at that.