mandatory id cards

solice

the nazis had them, the communists had them and now bertie wants them. what is happening to liberal ireland. the introduction of mandatory id cards for everyone that goes into a pub under the age of 23 is shamefull.

1. it aint going to solve the problem of underage drinking in this country. the vast majority of U18s in this country dont go drinking in pubs, they go gatting or bushing.

2. im 19, i am entitled to go into a pub and have a drink. i carry id with me anyway, what happens if i leave my mandatory card of enslavement at home.

3. to prevent the few U18s that do go to the pub and drink, impose harsher and more strict punishments on the landlord. after all he is the one supplying the demand.

i dont like the idea and i will not carry that card.

bonkey

Originally posted by solice
the nazis had them, the communists had them and now bertie wants them.

Those damned Nazis and communists. They breathed air and ate food and drank liquids as well, so they must all be bad ideas too.

The introduction of mandatory id cards for everyone that goes into a pub under the age of 23 is shamefull.

No, its not. It removes the last vestiges of an excuse which publicans may use when caught serving under-age drinkers.

1. it aint going to solve the problem of underage drinking in this country. the vast majority of U18s in this country dont go drinking in pubs, they go gatting or bushing.

Well, since the problem can't be solved, why bother trying to alleviate the symptoms. Hell - there's no crime we problem can fully solve so I guess we should just disband the police force and make everything legal.

2. im 19, i am entitled to go into a pub and have a drink. i carry id with me anyway, what happens if i leave my mandatory card of enslavement at home.

Same as will happen if you go to said bar and leave your mandatory cash or plastic of payment at home. You wont get served. (Yes, I realise you can borrow money, but the point stands. How often do you forget to bring money when you are heading out somewhere you will need it?)

3. to prevent the few U18s that do go to the pub and drink, impose harsher and more strict punishments on the landlord. after all he is the one supplying the demand.

How will that make it better? All that will happen is that every single publican and landlord will be forced to impose their own personal identification standards.

Then you have a problem that whats good enough for pub B isnt good enough for pub B.

Sooner or later, this will lead to legal issues, where someone will claim discrimination given that they have a legal right to be in the pub, there is no legal responsibilty on them to carry identification, and the landlord is running a public licence which prevents him from denying entry on just grounds.

It also settles the question of what constitutes a "valid" identification.

i dont like the idea and i will not carry that card.

Thats your right, but don't expect to get served in pubs until you're over 23 if and when this becomes law then.

jc

Sparks

I dunno bonkey - it sounds reasonable... but it also sounds like the thin edge of a wedge...

solice

Those damned Nazis and communists. They breathed air and ate food and drank liquids as well, so they must all be bad ideas too.

funny, i actually laughed out loud at that one.

Well, since the problem can't be solved, why bother trying to alleviate the symptoms. Hell - there's no crime we problem can fully solve so I guess we should just disband the police force and make everything legal.

im not saying dont solve the problem, i am saying that doing this is the wrong idea.

How will that make it better? All that will happen is that every single publican and landlord will be forced to impose their own personal identification standards.

everyone carries id, granted different forms exist from drivers licience to passport to college id etc.
are you saying that these so then become invalid and useless. this surely calls into the validity of all current id. stopped by the guards and you are asked to show your licence, but why should they accept it if jonny the local bar man doesnt. stopped at customs coming in from abroad, produce a passport, if its not acceptable at your local than why should customs accept it.
i realise that carrying your passport with you around town would be stupid but the point still stands.

Thats your right, but don't expect to get served in pubs until you're over 23 if and when this becomes law then

and if i am 23, and i get asked for my card of enslavement but i dont have it, what happens then. i produce another form of id that says i am 23 and then i get served. hhmmmm, does that seem peculiar to you or is it just plain hipocracy.

yes thats right, its hipocracy.

It also settles the question of what constitutes a "valid" identification.

valid id is anything that is produced from a reputable source that has someones full name, age, date of birth, address and picture.

Éomer of Rohan

im not saying dont solve the problem, i am saying that doing this is the wrong idea.

Well then what would you suggest? I personally think that underage drinking, to a certain extent would be ok - I disagree with the 18 age limit - BUT I would say that even in this case, ID cards would be necessary - in fact I would go one step further; cards that record how much drink you buy should be necessary for under 18's that way we can ensure they don't get too much alcohol; we can regulate what they do get and we still have the police walking around ensuring there is no loitering, still have the education programs encouraging young people to be responsible, we remove the novelty value and we can strictly enforce age-limits for these cards would be required in pubs and off-licenses unless proper ID could be shown; in which case there wouldn't be a bother how much you drink since you should be responsible. Supposedly. Ah hell just introduce the damn things right across the nation. And before I get accused of being the traditional commie big brother, I am very much for people's liberty, but sometimes it just seems as though people are deliberately irresponsible.

Victor

Perhaps it is time for the thin edge of the wedge to be inserted. I think there is a general requirement for a basic national ID. You can get away with anything in this country , all too easily.

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
cards that record how much drink you buy should be necessary for under 18's that way we can ensure they don't get too much alcohol

Are you advocating under-18s buying as much drink as they want as long as it is recorded?

Sparks

Perhaps it is time for the thin edge of the wedge to be inserted. I think there is a general requirement for a basic national ID. You can get away with anything in this country , all too easily.

This is like the "lift the sanctions" argument - I agree with the idea, but not the timing.
I've no problem with accountability - but not selective accountability. And until you can prove to me that it is absolutely impossible for a politician or a guard or some other person in a position of power to "get away with" things as a result of this mandatory ID, then I'll oppose it tooth and nail. I have no desire to tie myself to a totalitarian enforcement mechanism without accompanying libertarian political and social systems.

Are you advocating under-18s buying as much drink as they want as long as it is recorded?

Didn't his last sentence make any sense to you?

sanvean

Originally posted by Victor
Are you advocating under-18s buying as much drink as they want as long as it is recorded?

I'm guessing he's suggesting that, by recording it, they could put a limit on it. Don't know how that would work, though, as there would be many ways to get around it (bringing out a friend who doesn't drink, for example, and getting him to buy you your extra ones, for example).

also, a question (i think it might have already been asked): I'm 24, but look a hell of a lot younger (two days before I turned 24, I was carded when I tried to buy cigarettes ... oh the shame). So, what the hell do I do?

Moriarty

Ireland should have a compulsory ID card policy for all citizens, but i can see the privacy groups getting hot under the collar at the idea.

Captain Trips

Originally posted by bonkey

No, its not. It removes the last vestiges of an excuse which publicans may use when caught serving under-age drinkers.

There are already plenty of ID cards around. Why isn't a Passport of driver's license (provisional or full) good enough?

Sooner or later, this will lead to legal issues, where someone will claim discrimination given that they have a legal right to be in the pub, there is no legal responsibilty on them to carry identification, and the landlord is running a public licence which prevents him from denying entry on just grounds.

In this regard, I think such people should be told to not be such whining maggots. It's sue this and discriminate that every god damn day. Make it a legal responsibility to carry ID if you go drinking. If you are causing hassle in a bar, you can be asked to produce ID - and give the publican the authority to do so (either in the bar or at the door before going in).

No ID, no beer. It works - no passport, no flight. No drivers license, no car driving. Use one of those.

----

It is stupid to try and simply make new laws without basis that old ones were wrong. Plenty of countries get by with 18-years as the age required. In Ireland however, parent's do not wish to take responsibility for their own lack of interest in teaching kids how to drink properly. Kids who are 18 do not want to take responsibility for ending up in casualty off their skulls.


Irish people have been drinking excessively and fighting for years. In fact, to shock and awe everyone, the whole ****ing EU has.

Nothing has changed, but these days people want to blame someone else. I am all for 24 hour opening times, reduced restrictions on licensing and owners being entitled to have neat dress/over 23's whatever.

And most importantly - charging those ****s who end up in A/E having started fights, etc., for the costs. And maybe require that parents and the child involved attend rehab/counselling. Enforce that by law.

The majority are junior <18 years members of society. Over administration and new IDs are unnecessary. A kick up the ass is not.

---

Maybe we should look at the justice system instead. The laws are there, but people are getting away scot free. Use what we have or soon enough we'll end up with these:
http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/cb_headline.cgi?&story_file=bw.051303/231335624&directory=/google&header_file=header.htm&footer_file=
I don't want my freedom impinged because it suits misguided authorities to punish us all because it's more economical for us all to live in one big prison than to put those that deserve it into the ones we already have.

Éomer of Rohan

Are you advocating under-18s buying as much drink as they want as long as it is recorded?

Yes, recorded and within limits, yes I am. Do you not remember being young or did you not drink?

rez

gatting or bushing!! lol must be crazy terms for knacker drinking but yeah your right I barely stepped foot in a pub the other side of 18...

It does seem a bit stupid...everyone under 24. I'm 24 but do you think it'll be ok if I tell that to a barman? It'll mean everyone under 30 will end up having to carry them cos if your only 24 or 25 he might think you were under etc. etc.

And still the drinking and fighting will continue.

I can't see how legal criminal justice measures are going to solve what is fundamentally a social problem.

FIYAH BUN!!

Victor

Originally posted by Captain Trips
No ID, no beer.

Why not apply this to everyone?

Meh

Are there actually hard statistics that show that the majority of street violence is caused by underage drinkers, or is this just a kneejerk response to placate the middle-aged Sunday Indo readers?

Captain Trips

Originally posted by Victor
Why not apply this to everyone?

I'd agree. It works in the US. Why do we need a *new* one is what I don't like. It doesn't make sense if a form of ID is acceptable to the police than why not a bar?

Perhaps the problem is that the landlords are, by and large, either greedy or trying to recoup costs in buying licenses (costing vast amounts). They *need* the money that young people bring in.

Sparks

I'm still trying to figure out how a mandatory ID card system is supposed to be worthwhile in our country, given it's inherently corrupt nature.

Moriarty

Originally posted by Sparks
I'm still trying to figure out how a mandatory ID card system is supposed to be worthwhile in our country, given it's inherently corrupt nature.

How is a mandatory ID card system inherently corrupt?

bonkey

Originally posted by solice
everyone carries id, granted different forms exist from drivers licience to passport to college id etc.
are you saying that these so then become invalid and useless.

Yes and No.

I do not believe a bartender should be obliged to be aware of every type of ID produced by educational bodies, authoritative bodies, etc. etc. etc. in the nation, but unless that is the case, then allowing the broad spectrum of IDs is a pointless exercise.

I would have no issue with the suggestion that passports or drivers licences (containing picture, DOB, and so on) should remain valid, but the simple truth is that these are for specific purposes, and it is stupid in the extreme to require someone to purchase a drivers licence if they dont drive, or a passport if they dont go abroad, simply so that they can get served down the pub.

valid id is anything that is produced from a reputable source that has someones full name, age, date of birth, address and picture.

I think you'll find that legally, that is not the case. IIRC, in Ireland, for proof of identity (technically ID) it is enough to have a stamped (i.e. been through the post) envelope addressed to yourself. And therein lies the problem.

As to all of these "thin edge of the wedge" arguments...sorry...I dont buy it. If every single change in our lives was viewed as the first step on a slippery slope (and therefore to be avoided), we'd never have made it out of the caves. Hell, we'd never have made it into them.

Yes, this proposal should be examined to see what scope for abuse might exist within it, but other than that, I would say that we should save our Big Brother Consipiracies until a case presents itself where they are actually being implemented.

jc

Mighty_Mouse

We already have the identification - -- - its the 'age card' or something.

Mandatory cards are a crap idea. I'm 22. If a publican asks me for ID, I didnt bother bringing it with me ................then home I go.

I think the previous point that ppl dont forget to bring pass machine cards, or money or their mobile phone . Cause they have to have these things.

Over 18? Proove it - you HAVE to have the national I.D, Passport or driving licence or go home for it.

Introducing mandatory I.Ds is too draconian 4 my liking.

Why not take the american ideal. The penalties for the publican are extreme. Shut down the bar for a night or two. Fines, etc

Once that was enforced in ireland, watch the publicans sort out the situation in a jiffy!!

Ok you can shout about the fact that americans dont legally drink until 21 , hence there older, wiser, increaserd tolerance.

But the fact of the matter is , you will get served Nowhere in america under 30 without ID.

ID = beer

whats the problem.

Finally , undercover cops to be allowed enforce closing time , underage etc

---

now thats the direction to be heading.

Sparks

How is a mandatory ID card system inherently corrupt?

I actually meant that our country is inherently corrupt. Mind you, introduce a mandatory ID card system here and it would get corrupted in pretty short order too.

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
I think you'll find that legally, that is not the case. IIRC, in Ireland, for proof of identity (technically ID) it is enough to have a stamped (i.e. been through the post) envelope addressed to yourself. And therein lies the problem.[/B]

In such a case, the envelope is evidence, not proof beyond all doubt. One lawyer can provide his proof, another can offer his proof against the first's proof.

proof ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prf)
n.
The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

Law. The result or effect of evidence; the establishment or denial of a fact by evidence.

bonkey

Originally posted by Victor
In such a case, the envelope is evidence, not proof beyond all doubt.

As would be an ID card surely. It is still only evidence, as the possibility that it is forged will always exist.

jc

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
As would be an ID card surely. It is still only evidence, as the possibility that it is forged will always exist.

Exactly, but by having say photo, date of birth, tamper-proofing etc. on it, it becomes much better evidence.

Thorbar

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Ok you can shout about the fact that americans dont legally drink until 21 , hence there older, wiser, increaserd tolerance.

I'm taking it you've never been out drinking in America? They're a pack of bloody louts but they're good fun all the same.

Personally I don't really agree with bringing in this ID because I remember what a pain in the arse it was drinking out in the wet in bloody fields. I'd have been a lot safer if I was inside in a pub having a few quiet ones with my mates instead of running around a like a lunatic on cider. I say reduce the drinking limit to 16!

solice

enfoce harsher punishments on landlords that allow underage drinking, they will quickly begin to realise that having the little s**ts in the bar would not be cost effective.

as for introducing cards that monitor how much ppl drink i think that that is a bit extreme, i mean that is way beyond the call of reason. you also said that it was ok for young ppl to drink. hmmm, dont think so.

this is not a big brother conspiracy, there are ppl watching us but nine times out of ten its the bloody nosey neighbours. the introduction of enslavment cards is a violation of civil liberties. (im not a hippy, quite conservative actually but this disgusts me).

could someone please tell me what the poor 24 year old who forgot his enslavement card is suppossed to do while the little 18 year old celebrates his birthday while becoming completely intoxicated and has to go to a&e.

solice

ok a little off the mark and all but im i the only person here that didnt start drinking till i turned 18 and it was my dad who bought me my first drink

Victor

I didn't drink until I was 22.

Lemming

I think the N.Americans have the right idea.

Card pretty much everyone. They produce ID [1]. Wayhay. Police come checking, the establishment can turn around and say "We asked, they produced".

Then the police turn to owner of faked ID and say "Right sonny .. lets have a look at this ID of yours ...." and you are well and truly f*cked.

At any rate, it forces everyone involved to be responsible for their own actions without having to incur the costs of ANOTHER ID system for the bouncers to say "sorry - this is fake" whilst the bloody thing has an official government hologram/stamp on it.


[1] - ID that isn't blatantly fake

Éomer of Rohan

as for introducing cards that monitor how much ppl drink i think that that is a bit extreme, i mean that is way beyond the call of reason. you also said that it was ok for young ppl to drink. hmmm, dont think so

Why not?
I began drinking properly about 17 - when I was underage. I never drank heavily and was never pissed; I liked getting mildly tipsy as it helped me to enjoy the night; socialising in a bar not being something I always enjoy. I do know however that many underage drinkers go out and get pissed just for the sake of it, therefore, if there is a way we can regulate it, we should do so. Underage drinking - from about 16+ poses no real health risk and it is certainly going to happen anyway; this way you would remove a lot of drunken loitering such as I see in my home town. Moreover, if we have an overall limit then adults will be less likely to buy drinks for young people given that it may at some stage that night, prevent them from having a drink themselves. I would view this as the more socially responsible attitude given the situation of rampant youth related drinking problems in NI.

Captain Trips

And of course soon enough, we would have interventional action on people who, for example, exceed a weekly allowance. They might be forced to seek counselling, etc., and that might unfoundedly mar future jobs, etc., .

I believe in proper education by parents and people not being such a bunch of pussies trying to blame others (and I blame the parents of the 14 year olds, etc., ), the vintner's federation, the health service, the government. You name, there'll be someone saying they are at fault - anyone but themselves.

So what do you do? I don't agree with removing rational choice and the possibility to improve by striving personally should be replaced with a totalitarian system.

What do think, Beta Minus?

Imposter

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
We already have the identification - -- - its the 'age card' or something.

Over 18? Proove it - you HAVE to have the national I.D, Passport or driving licence or go home for it.

Introducing mandatory I.Ds is too draconian 4 my liking.

Only people under 20 or so have ever bothered with these. Plus they are easily faked.

As i've mentioned in a thread in humanities I've seen friends of mine refused with Driving Licences and heard of others refused from pubs with passports!

Introducing mandatory ID's should be compulsory. Not only going ot the pub but walking down the street. If you are alone and something happens to you then people can easily check where you live etc. Also if you are up to no good the guards can ask you for this ID which you SHOULD have. If you don't then get arrested, you won't forget it next time especially if you were in the right. Also in pubs everyone should be made produce it.

Should you have a fake one and a pub is checked, you must produce it and then you are caught and should be jailed or heavily fined. Tourists should be made known about the law and their passports should be valid.

The only problem with such a system is the thought of actually trying to get something like this implemented in Ireland especially as the Guards will have to be heavily involved.

As for objections from people about losing their privacy, surely it would have the effect of making things better for those that are law abiding out there. Obviously those that break the law will have objections!

Lemming

Originally posted by Imposter

As i've mentioned in a thread in humanities I've seen friends of mine refused with Driving Licences and heard of others refused from pubs with passports!

Then why bother bringing in another form of ID that can then be refused? Driving licences and passports are state-issued (and not on a whim either) documents. So what makes you think a third state-issued document/ID is going to be any more accepted?

Introducing mandatory ID's should be compulsory. Not only going ot the pub but walking down the street. If you are alone and something happens to you then people can easily check where you live etc. Also if you are up to no good the guards can ask you for this ID which you SHOULD have. If you don't then get arrested, you won't forget it next time especially if you were in the right. Also in pubs everyone should be made produce it.

Should you have a fake one and a pub is checked, you must produce it and then you are caught and should be jailed or heavily fined. Tourists should be made known about the law and their passports should be valid.

If I recall, in countries where you're required to produce ID upon request by law-enforcement agencies, any ID is sufficient. If it's fake, yer screwed. It's as simple as that.

So again, why need to bring in ANOTHER type of ID?

As for objections from people about losing their privacy, surely it would have the effect of making things better for those that are law abiding out there. Obviously those that break the law will have objections!

ah yes, the old "if you have nothing to hide" routine. How about "I don't want to have every tom, dick, and harry know my business"??

Imposter

Originally posted by Lemming
Then why bother bringing in another form of ID that can then be refused? Driving licences and passports are state-issued (and not on a whim either) documents. So what makes you think a third state-issued document/ID is going to be any more accepted?

Because driving licences are to say you can drive and passports are for travelling. Maybe combine the driving licence and ID but a passport is too valuable (and awkward) to be carrying around.

If I recall, in countries where you're required to produce ID upon request by law-enforcement agencies, any ID is sufficient. If it's fake, yer screwed. It's as simple as that.

True but having just one main ID that is valid would give people who require valid ID for something, less get out clauses (eg publicans claiming they didn't recognise the issuer).

ah yes, the old "if you have nothing to hide" routine. How about "I don't want to have every tom, dick, and harry know my business"?? [/B]

How would every Tom, Dick and Harry know your business, especially if it's only the guards that control the information? Surely your driving licence /passport gives every Tom, Dick and Harry the same oppurtunities to know your business! As well as every other form of ID you may have. Something like this might mean less people know your business, not more!

Lemming

Originally posted by Imposter
Because driving licences are to say you can drive and passports are for travelling. Maybe combine the driving licence and ID but a passport is too valuable (and awkward) to be carrying around.

ABsolutely correct about the Passport. You shouldn't be carrying it on a night out anyway. But my original point still standsm irrespective of what the ID represents. It's ID. it's very much official and extrordinarly difficult to forge with any degree of authenticity to withstand any sort of scrutiny. So why do we need ANOTHER ID? We have several already, and the publicans STILL find excuses. TBH, it's a pile of total w^nk, and it wont solve the colour of sh*te much less anything else.

"YES We've got a social problem. Make people carry mandatory ID.

"YES we've got another social problem. Umm ... ban a certian type of drink but leave other just-as-potent-alternatives available"

"YES we've got another social problem. Bring in a wad of new legislsation that'll never be enforced on motorbike drivers when all we need to do is enforce the existing"

You get the idea?

This is not any sort of effective solution. Christ sake, why don't they just make us all have bar-codes tattooed into our fore-arms? Too uncomfortable a suggestion? Too close to historical events? Gee-whizz, it's effective though isn't it? That way everyone can be ID'd all the time!

True but having just one main ID that is valid would give people who require valid ID for something, less get out clauses (eg publicans claiming they didn't recognise the issuer).

See my above comments about publicans finding excuses as it is already.

Oh, and as an aside - here's a thought for you. If everyone HAS to carry a state-issued ID at all times, anyone who wants to gain possession of an ID knows that they are guaruanteed one on anyone they stop/pick-pocket/mug. Thus enhancing the chances of identity theft. Very difficult to dis-prove if someone uses YOUR ID which is recognised by the state.

Imposter

Originally posted by Lemming
"YES We've got a social problem. Make people carry mandatory ID.

"YES we've got another social problem. Umm ... ban a certian type of drink but leave other just-as-potent-alternatives available"

"YES we've got another social problem. Bring in a wad of new legislsation that'll never be enforced on motorbike drivers when all we need to do is enforce the existing"

You get the idea?

I agree with most of this. IMO this is why such a step is neccesary. Ok all this requires the government and the guards to actually get up and enforce it but if it was enforced these social problems could be reduced. Most people are law-abiding and want a life free from the sh1t that is everywhere at the moment. If such a system was put in place I think it would eventually deter people from criminal actions. Yes, yes if the guards enforce it..
This would make life in general more palatable and a better quality of life for everyone!

Christ sake, why don't they just make us all have bar-codes tattooed into our fore-arms?

Great idea. Do you think it'll work!;)

See my above comments about publicans finding excuses as it is already.

Don't get me started on this one. (HAve a look at the discussion in Humanities). Just to say,
1) Open up the licencing system
2) Compulsary ID (as above) for everyone
3) Make it illegal to serve drunk people
4) Take licences away from publicans who abuse, discriminate and generally take the p1ss out of the public and the laws.

Very difficult to dis-prove if someone uses YOUR ID which is recognised by the state.

This problem exists already! Ok admittedly it would be slightly worse with one overall ID card. But then the card is fake and if checked by a cop it is seen to be so. Or not?

Lemming

Originally posted by Imposter
I agree with most of this. IMO this is why such a step is neccesary.

It's not necessary. It's not going to stop anything at all. It's media fluff to make it look like the vintners are "responsible" people whilst allowing them shirk on actually being responsible for what they do - serve people drink. THey're blaming everyone but themselves.

If they're so keen on this mandatory new uber-ID, then why don't they put up the money for it. Why should I pay for their inability to act responsibily by giving billy-I've-had-too-much-drink another pint since they're getting lots of money off him for it ?

We have a garda ID. We have drivers licences, passports, etc. etc. You're still not seeing my point about all this ID. Irrespective of what it's used for, it's a state-issued-document-proving-you-are-who-you-claim-you-are. You don't just waltz into your nearest government institution and pick one up at the counter for free.

if we actually forced peopel to be responsible for their actions, we'd have a far better society. Instead we get this "blame everyone/thing" else syndrome.

Great idea. Do you think it'll work!;)

heh. Probably. Of course it may not go down too well with the electorate

We'll probably have to address Beeerrrrtie as "mein fuhrer beeerrrrtie" though

This problem exists already! Ok admittedly it would be slightly worse with one overall ID card. But then the card is fake and if checked by a cop it is seen to be so. Or not?

If the card is being checked by a garda, then why the need for a mandatory ID? Any id that looks suspect is going to have you flagged, dragged down the station, etc, etc. The fact that it's a state-issued-document that's been forged will make the situation more serious, but the general result is the same. Deep sh*t.

Trebor

can your genes tell how old your are?

maybe we could get a device that scans your DNA and tells how old you are and then have them on the door's and bar's so that when you enter the building you get scanned and when you buy a drink you get scanned.

then there would be no need for ID as it does not need to say who you are just that you are over 18. problem solved

solice

as much of a good idea that that is, money. even if it was possible i dont think joe soap the man who owns the local could afford one.

Mighty_Mouse

Introducing mandatory ID's should be compulsory. Not only going ot the pub but walking down the street. If you are alone and something happens to you then people can easily check where you live etc. Also if you are up to no good the guards can ask you for this ID which you SHOULD have. If you don't then get arrested, you won't forget it next time especially if you were in the right.

oh my god,!!

I can't believe ppl actually think this. To this is apalling!
I would leave the country if this sort of legislation was introduced and implemented properly.

It comes down to where you start you're argument. I basically think it's a free country unless I break the law.


Again the problem with ppl being refused entry to a pub after showing passport or driving licence - the solution here is not to bring in another ID!!!!

solice

exactly, we have legitimate id as it is, why in gods name do we need one more that is mandatory and will cost the tax payer millions.

its a bad idea that is costly and irresponsible

Imposter

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
It comes down to where you start you're argument. I basically think it's a free country unless I break the law.

With what i'm suggesting, law abiding people 'may' be asked for ID in a pub. Other than that dealing with government agencies, maybe universities, and things like that where you need to prove who you say you are, are the only times they'll need them.

Again the problem with ppl being refused entry to a pub after showing passport or driving licence - the solution here is not to bring in another ID!!!!

Correct, but my thinking here is bring in an ID which the publican's cannot query as to its authenticity, it means the public don't have to carry valuable documents, such as passports, out with them and it is implemented for everyone and therefore there are no problems with 'under or over 24' and such issues (as with the current half ärsed solution that is Garda ID's).

But there's no chance of anything ever been seriously done about it anyway!

solice

ok im going to let ye all in on a secret. when you are under 18 you are not stupid.
when they go out they get id off an older friend, brother sister. someone that looks like them. surely if you brought in another form of id they would do the same.
its pointless, its stupid.
the garda age card scheme didnt work, what makes anyone think that this will work.

DeVore

I'd just like to point out that not everyone has a drivers license.

I dont for example

In fact proving that I *am* Tom Murphy can be a bit tricky at times when companies ask for two pieces of ID.

Unless the Garda ID card had a bar-code or a mag-strip on it, I wouldnt object to carrying it. What I *would* object to is another electronic "tag" that can monitor my actions/travels.

DeV.

ps: Ironically I've tried to use my Gold Card credit card as id before.... not acceptible. I've bought nearly 10K's worth of equipment with that card ... but its not acceptible to prove who I am.... weird.

Sparks

How would every Tom, Dick and Harry know your business, especially if it's only the guards that control the information? Surely your driving licence /passport gives every Tom, Dick and Harry the same oppurtunities to know your business! As well as every other form of ID you may have. Something like this might mean less people know your business, not more!

Why is it that even with the Morris tribunal and the incidents around the country of Gardai being prosecuted for criminal acts, that people still have this absolute trust in their honesty?
Fact is, a mandatory ID card will not prevent crime, the security of the information cannot be ensured, and the whole thing is the thin edge of a wedge we DO NOT want.

Maybe if we lived in an honest country we could do this, but somehow I don't think even then it would be a good idea.

Imposter

Originally posted by Sparks
Why is it that even with the Morris tribunal and the incidents around the country of Gardai being prosecuted for criminal acts, that people still have this absolute trust in their honesty?

I'm sorry if what I said gave the impression that I had absolute trust in the Gardai but that is far from the truth. IMO policing is one of the biggest problems with Ireland today. Whether that's the fault of the guards, the courts and/or the way governments seem to half-do everything is another discussion.

Also, before any ID system should be introduced (same should have been the case for penalty points) the Gardai need to be accountable for their actions.

solice

the thin edge of a wedge

so i dont crack up, whats a thin edge of a wedge and why do people keep saying it. sorry for straying from the point

GuanYin

My understanding of this was that the Mandatory ID was not an "anti-underage drinking" campaign, but a general policy to be brought in (ie. anyone under twenty-X years of age must be able to produce their ID if stopped by the garda after a certain time).

This policy would be outragous. It would basically be the government washing its hands of the crime problem and tarring all young people with the same brush. I don't think it would be much of an incoveniece, but the principle of the matter is outragous.

Now, ID for pubs is a different matter. People over here seem to think its a huge offence or problem to be asked for ID in a pub. Its stupid. I'd be happy and open to publicans demanding ID off the majority of people in a pub. The Equality laws are there to prevent discrimination (in theory) so let them ask for ID, if it became thenorm at least you'd have all this stupid embarassment and arguing people have when they are 22 and asked for ID (I mean FFS its not like youre 50).

This is the way it will probably go anyway, because I'm wellllllllll past my 23rd birthday and I still get asked for ID regularly. If they bring in a 23-25 ID system it will mean anyone up to 35 is liable to be asked.

If they bring in mandatory ID in general though, I'll be most unhappy:

Garda: ID please
Me: I'm over 25 I don't need to carry ID.
Garda: But you don't look that old
Me: Well I must be, otherwise I'd have mandatory ID
Garda: Oh, ok then, carry on.

Trebor

this is not a Mandatory ID, it is just making it law that all people who wish to drink and are younger than 2X must produce ID to get said drink.

it would only be mandatory if it was forced upon everyone and people where not given a choice about carrying it.

Lemming

Originally posted by sykeirl
My understanding of this was that the Mandatory ID was not an "anti-underage drinking" campaign, but a general policy to be brought in (ie. anyone under twenty-X years of age must be able to produce their ID if stopped by the garda after a certain time).

This policy would be outragous. It would basically be the government washing its hands of the crime problem and tarring all young people with the same brush. I don't think it would be much of an incoveniece, but the principle of the matter is outragous.

And as with the current government's amazing clarity in other issues, telling people in age bracket 'n' that they must carry mandatory ID is utterly stupid. Do they think that people outside of this bracket DON'T need to carry ID?

But what if you're over the age and don't have the mandatory ID on you since you're not obliged to carry it? Will the gardai arrest you and make you prove you're over the age? Then that means that EVERYONE has to carry the ID in question anyway.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again, all of these calls are from people trying to avoid their own responsibilities.

Now, ID for pubs is a different matter. People over here seem to think its a huge offence or problem to be asked for ID in a pub. Its stupid. I'd be happy and open to publicans demanding ID off the majority of people in a pub. The Equality laws are there to prevent discrimination (in theory) so let them ask for ID, if it became thenorm at least you'd have all this stupid embarassment and arguing people have when they are 22 and asked for ID (I mean FFS its not like youre 50).

I don't have a problem with being asked for ID at a pub, but I have a real problem with publicans demanding that I pay for their desire to act in an irresponsible manner towards alcohol and get away with blaming something/someone else.

(I also have an issue with a bouncer the size of a gorilla - with a brainsize to match - telling me that my state-issued ID which I had to get by producing my f*cking birth-cert is not valid)

We don't need another ID scheme. We have dozens already. Why not actually improve upon those or actually start enforcing some of the legislation already passed before throwing more money down the toilet on an ill-thought-out and hair-brained scheme that is nothing mor ethan media fluff. The way it's being bandied about you'd swear it was the solution to all of our social ills.

Sparks

so i dont crack up, whats a thin edge of a wedge and why do people keep saying it.

It's how they bring in bad laws in this country. It refers to how you split a log with a wedge - it's not so easy to get the first millimetre or so of the wedge in, and then the rest follows more easily because of the tip being in.
It works similarly in this country. For example, handguns. In 1972, a temporary order was issued for all legally held handguns to be handed in for a period of one month for "security reasons".
They've still not been handed back and the owners have still not been compensated.
For another example, the reduction of power in local government. First small changes were made, making them more "accountable" to central government and over the years, more and more changes have been made, essentially castrating local authorities.

And now, mandatory IDs are being introduced, one bit at a time. First mandatory for the under-24s for buying alcohol. Well, that seems okay, so noone really has a valid complaint. Then let's make it for all ages - after all it worked so well with the under-24's and we can't really be agist, can we? And then, well, it would be so useful to have a permanent ID, and you're carrying one for the pub anyway, right? So let's make it mandatory to always carry it. And if you're allways carrying it, wouldn't it be handy to have more information on it? So lets carry all your medical and judicial files on the card...
And before you know it, you're in a totalitarian state.

DeVore

Originally posted by Sparks
And if you're allways carrying it, wouldn't it be handy to have more information on it? So lets carry all your medical and judicial files on the card...
And before you know it, you're in a totalitarian state.

Ok you were going great guns until you made this rather illogical and somewhat hysterical jump...

Can you please explain to me how carrying a card that contains medical and judicial information (along with allowing me into a pub) leads in exorably to a "totalitarian state"?

(I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing, I'm pointing out a leap to conclusion hidden amongst a precusor of "reasonably logical" statements. Sets my radar off like a christmas tree... )

DeV.