Faith ?

HarryD

I guess alot of you guys are clever rational people...
I'm just wondering how many ppl here still believe there's a God.

sixpack's little hat

last option

don't think i'm likely to ever revert either

woolymammoth

Originally posted by HarryD
I'm just wondering how many ppl here still believe there's a God.

still? i never have. tbh, i just found it a bit hard to swallow the
whole supreme being thing. a being who most of the world
believes in, yet have never seen. stories about a man who lived
two thousand years ago, obvoiusly did something of importance,
but has had his story wildly exaggerated over the millenia.

the way i see it, nowadays we know more about everything and
believe less in god. if we look back a thousand years, we knew
less, and were more superstitous as a result. go back another
thousand years and it's worse. => we invented god

god does not exist in reality. god is a spiritual idea for those who
do choose to believe. as long as they don't try to bother me with
it, i won't bother them about it.

thats option number four please Bob!

JohnK

#4 for me too.
It just doesn't seem possible to me, although 20 odd years of brain washing has taken its toll.

Saruman

would this not be better in Christianity??

DeadBankClerk

The question is 'is there a god?' not 'is there a christ?'.

Amz

I don't believe in God, haven't done since I was about 9 or 10. This is due mainly to a few events in my life at which time the word God was prated about as if this being was going to miraculously appear and make it all better.

I'm sick of hearing all the contradictions contained within the bible and the way different groups twist biblical references to suit their own ends ie White supremecists and Jehovas Witness'.

The human brain has adapted to incorporate the capacity to believe in a spiritual entity. It gives people hope and something to cling to. Something to believe and rely on. Frankly I think Homer Simpson was right, there's as much chance of superman swooping down to save me as there is this all knowing white bearded bloke in "heaven"

I continued going to mass until i was 18 in the hope that there would be some reason for me to believe but i found none.

When I die, I will rot, simple as that, no after life and no second coming.

I have many reasons but am too tired to elaborate at the moment.

Gordon

Originally posted by Saruman
would this not be better in Christianity??

I think I'll leave this here personally as Christianity has an implied faith in the forum idea.

I will however urge the poster to also post this on the Christianity board if he/she wants a view from the Christian community.

patch

Ehhh.....no. Anybody else ever read a book called "chariots of The Gods'??

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Typedef

No proof, no god.

Thanks for calling.

Gordon

Merc if only I could move this over to your journal

Silent Bob

I'd also have to go with option #4

Here's a good logical argument about the Christian god.

"Christians believe in five things: First, God exists. Second, God is all good. Third, God is all powerful. Fourth, God is all knowing. Fifth, evil exists. Now how can all of those statements be true at the same time?".

This is the classic "argument from evil" which can be formulated as follows:

1. If the Christian God exists, he knows about all evil and has the power to stop all evil.

2. If the Christian God exists, he is all good.

3. If the Christian God is all good, he should stop all evil and it should not exist.

4. Evil exists.

5. Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.

taken from http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kyle_gerkin/objections_sustained/obj1.shtml

Trebor

God does not exist.

there is no need to waste time going to mass each and every week.
you should be spending that time doing something productive.
like sleeping

anyway there is no use for god nor the religious institution's(sp?) in the mordern word. we have charities for all of the major and minor problems that we face.
tell me what does the church do? beside taking up land and money that could be spent beter elsewhere.

mooman_00

nada maestro,
I dont believe, nor do i feel the need to pretend to believe to feel safe or to live my life. Im happy without faith or belief.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Beëlzebooze

don't get religion(the church) and faith mixed up!

I believe that religion (especially Institutionalised religion) is a bad thing, it puts people in a position to abuse their power, and as most humans, they will.

Faith is a completely different matter alltogether. this does not necessarily go hand in hand with religion, but alas, more often than not it does.

anyway, I do not believe one way or another.

Silent Bob

Originally posted by Trebor
tell me what does the church do? beside taking up land and money that could be spent beter elsewhere.

Ministers visit the sick, the old, those whom no-one else cares about. Whatever about a belief in god or not, I do believe that these people make a big difference in enough people's lives to justify having them around (don't get started on clerical abuse issues, there are far more good clerics out there than bad, who deserve a bit of recognition).

patch

Originally posted by Silent Bob
Ministers visit the sick, the old, those whom no-one else cares about. Whatever about a belief in god or not, I do believe that these people make a big difference in enough people's lives to justify having them around (don't get started on clerical abuse issues, there are far more good clerics out there than bad, who deserve a bit of recognition).

You missed a couple there mate, mainly to do with kiddie fiddling and operating laundries..........

(edit) whoops should have clearly read your post.....

Still, theres so many revelations in the abuse regard, that it's impossible not to mention it in a thread like this.

Trebor

Originally posted by Silent Bob
Ministers visit the sick, the old, those whom no-one else cares about. Whatever about a belief in god or not, I do believe that these people make a big difference in enough people's lives to justify having them around (don't get started on clerical abuse issues, there are far more good clerics out there than bad, who deserve a bit of recognition).

but there are organizations that do that, hospices(sp?) are there for the terminally ill.
there is also charities that organise getting the elderly involved with other people ( look at bingo brings them all together ).

all i am saying is that those people who became priest to help people would be better off joining a charity organisation as they would spend more time helping others instead of giving sermons. which in turn would help more people. how many shelters could we set up if we converted every church in ireland?

i agree with the not mentioning of the clerical abuse as if those indviduals where not priest's they would have found other ways to

fiddle

with children.

Nevyn

Yes for me there is a God and also a Goddess.

i tend to relate more to the Goddess but as I am female that understandible but they both play a big part in my life.

Tusky

Depends what you mean by "god" the bibles perception ? msot definally not

DeVore

This should probably be on Humanities...


I answered "I dont know" because I dont know what you are asking if I believe in it or not.

How are you defining "God"? Guy... white beard, big stick, loud voice?

DeV

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

WhiteWashMan

is there an all knowing all supreme being that roams the universe and for some unknown reason stuck his son on this god forsaken planet out of the billions of other planets that probably have life on them?

um, no. i dont belive that.

i do believe that there may have been some kind of visitation from outside of our solar system thousands of years ago that may have lead people to belive in this sort of thing.
after all, there are just far too many stories of visitations and aliens and stuff for it not to have happened.

by the way, i wouldnt put no evidence down as not existing.

for example, i have seen no evidence of tigers in england, but i know there are some....

HarryD

Originally posted by Gordon
I will however urge the poster to also post this on the Christianity board if he/she wants a view from the Christian community.

I posted here because the guys here seem to have an open mind.. and quite clever..

The guys on christian groups may be a bit biased..
HD

HarryD

Originally posted by JohnK
#4 for me too.
It just doesn't seem possible to me, although 20 odd years of brain washing has taken its toll.

LOL
Taken it's toll on me too..

ferdi

lets be honest, i dosnt matter if we believe in a god or not.

i dont think human brains can full understand what GOD means, therefore we surround it with neat little stories (eg:bible, karhn) to help us understand. up until the industrial/scientific revolution, i think most people believed in god. but has science answered all the questions?people stopped believing when it looked like there would be an explaination.

people stop believing in god when times are good. i sight America, now the sh!t has hit the fan, the churches are full to bursting.society is so fickle.

i think alot of us dont believe in god because to believe takes an effort, to have faith is hard and people are lazy, i am lazy. to really believe in god, and i'm not talking blind faith here, to really believe that there is a god, one must be super intelligant because i for one understand that my brain is too weak to ever full comprahend God.

i also believe that the reason alot of us (and in this i mean people raised christian) dont believe is because we were forced to go to mass as kids, we rebelled and quit church because it was so feckin boring. it has been uncool to go to mass for years and i'd say this has had an effect.

also alot off the rules of the catholic church successfully alienated 20th century society with rules such as no sex outside of marrige, no safe sex, no homosexuality - however, i think its important to remember that these rules have come from a bunch of old dudes in rome, not directly from god.

i read in a book once that "god is in heaven laughing because people dont believe in him". i read in the same book that "god is dead, and we are the ones how have murdered him"

as for me, put me down for an "i dont know", lets be honest, none of you can know one way or the other.

Gordon

Hmmm, moved to Humanities where there are also clever people!

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Gordon

heh actually Mercie, it was Ferdi's post that made me put this in Humanities if you want the truth.

amp

Originally posted by Mercury_Tilt
you when Im sober.....

Now I suffer the wrath of ampie

As long as you're not recruiting for your wierdo cult then I shalt not judge ye with wrath or fury.

Can we put this back on PI?

No.

Back on topic, let's see some big thinky paragraphs.

Caesar_Bojangle

just noticed the Christian board, f#ck this i'm requesting a moslem board

HarryD

Originally posted by Amz
Frankly I think Homer Simpson was right, there's as much chance of superman swooping down to save me as there is this all knowing white bearded bloke in "heaven"

ahh that's a bit harsh
"Haven't you learned anything from that guy who gives sermons at church? Captain what's-his-name?"

LOL :-D

HarryD

I have to agree with most of the posts here and go with option 4.
Looking at things rationally and with an open mind, I think
anyone would agree, the arguments against a God are much much stronger.

I think ppl just wanted an answer to the question:
"What's the meaning of life ?"
And hence introduced God. It's a man made thing.

If one were to try and explain to a open minded person,
who never heard of such a concept, I think he'd think it was
a crazy idea..

It's all indoctrination.
If a christian had been born into a muslim family, he'd
most likely believe in Islam..

HD

Trebor

Originally posted by HarryD

I think ppl just wanted an answer to the question:
"What's the meaning of life ?"
And hence introduced God. It's a man made thing.

HD

is that all ya want to know?

simple.

the meaning of life is to live, nothing more nothing less just simply live.

Beëlzebooze

i think alot of us dont believe in god because to believe takes an effort, to have faith is hard and people are lazy, i am lazy. to really believe in god, and i'm not talking blind faith here, to really believe that there is a god, one must be super intelligant because i for one understand that my brain is too weak to ever full comprahend God.

believing is easy, if it was hard, the church would not have the hold on the millions of people it does.

As far as your brain being to weak to comprehend God? Have you ever considered that you or a brain like yours created God in the first place?

It is my belief that man created God, as an explination to what he does not understand. As per usual man also saw a way of using this belief in a God as a means of manipulating and controlling believers. God is not dead, God will always exist as long as there is at least one beliver. The day that no one believes in him any more, is the day God dies.

having faith is more or less the same thing, but does not use the same relationship with the church from the offset, but considering people are social animals, they will seek out like minded others, and get together to discuss their faith, when this number rises, some kind of orginization is needed, so we fall back in to the church model, it cannot be avoided.

If god does exist, and he did create everything, where did he come from? who created him? then, who created the creators creator?

instinctively it sounds implausible that there is a devine being.

sanvean

I would have to go with an 'i dont know' bcos on the basis of our knowledge at the moment, we can't actually say 'yes' or 'no'. Interestingly, in arguing against the person and the 'evil' hypothesis, the general argument would be, as regards to non-natural sin, this exists bcos god gave us free will. as for natural evil (like volcanos and earthquakes) this can also be argued to an extent by free will (in that god made the world, and left it develop as it did) but also, usually, by the unhelpful 'we cant know the ways of god' sort of argument.

it's interesting that people will accept the possibility of alien life forms visiting us, but not of a god sending his son down. how odd.

also:

Originally posted by Thaed
Yes for me there is a God and also a Goddess.

Genderising god is something which would prove to me that, as far as biblical and koranic etc religions go, their god is just based on human inventions and so on. God cannot be one gender, as firstly gender is confined to worldy things, that is people and animals and some plants have gender. Also, if God has a gender, does s/he/it have the appropriate reproductive organs? if so, why? so, why does god have to be a specific gender? surely s/he/it is all these things, and none of these things?

but that's if he exists, of course...

Trebor

Originally posted by sanvean
Interestingly, in arguing against the person and the 'evil' hypothesis, the general argument would be, as regards to non-natural sin, this exists bcos god gave us free will. as for natural evil (like volcanos and earthquakes) this can also be argued to an extent by free will (in that god made the world, and left it develop as it did) but also, usually, by the unhelpful 'we cant know the ways of god' sort of argument.

there is no such thing as "natural evil", you are implying that the volcanos eurupted to cause harm as oppose to being a force of nature that just happens.

also there is no such thing as good and evil only our perception of it. meaning that what is evil for you may not be evil for me.

if God gave us free will then he/she gave us the right to not belive in him/her.

sanvean

actually, there is such a thing as natural evil, you are just deciding to stick to understanding moral evil, that is evil which we as humans have a power to execute. evil can be something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction, evil is not necessarily dependant on its aim.

and of course if god gave us free will, he also gave us the possibility of not believing in him. however, if you believe the biblical and koranic accounts of god, this is not an excuse, in fact, it makes your disbelief even more telling ...

Trebor

but volcanos also improve the fertility of the land in which they erupt thereby leading to renewed growth and life.

it is only called evil because humans invented the concept and accuse anything bad that happens to them as the work of someone or something as being evil or out to get them.

evil can be something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction, evil is not necessarily dependant on its aim

so we are all evil because most of use allow animals to be raised to be slaughtered so that we can eat them?
i would class this as being top of the food chain.

also we as humans are constantly destroying nature and land for the purpose of building and expanding but this is not seen as evil as it is accepted by the majority of people. it is only evil when what we build is destroyed by forces out side our control? is that not a bit superstisious(sp?)

Nevyn

yes the devine is genderless but as we are only human and could not comprened the devine we percice it in many form, faces and aspects.

To some it is the christian go, to others Alah , Jehovah, budda, Kali
, krishna ect.

As we are genderised it is easier for us to relate in that way.
Hence the God and Goddess bakcne out each other and they have in many incarnations and cultures. In places where one is raised above the other there is an imblance.

Silent Bob

Another handy take on the existence of god, taken from another forum where this has been discussed to death

I find it more helpful to assert that god exists, and then to judge whether or not he merits continued existance and/or worship based on the history of his works(i.e. the bible).

I like to quote epicurius on the matter:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? "

sanvean

Originally posted by Trebor
it is only called evil because humans invented the concept and accuse anything bad that happens to them as the work of someone or something as being evil or out to get them.

Yes, of course. I use the term 'natural evil' bcos it needs to be addressed when discussing the problem of 'evil' as we humans see it. Volcanos are good in many numerous ways, but the example is used due to their destructive qualities. Fertile soil doesn't really cancel out death on such a large scale, at least not in the short term anyway.

so we are all evil because most of use allow animals to be raised to be slaughtered so that we can eat them?
i would class this as being top of the food chain.

The bible has a slightly different take on this. God commands us to subdue the earth, as we are inherently above all other 'lesser' creatures. It's not evil, bcos it 'benefits' mankind.

also we as humans are constantly destroying nature and land for the purpose of building and expanding but this is not seen as evil as it is accepted by the majority of people. it is only evil when what we build is destroyed by forces out side our control? is that not a bit superstisious(sp?)

I think it's more to do with the destruction on such a large scale. Nuclear bombs are considered 'evil' if we are to use such a term, as is genocide and other human actions.

mike65

I voted option 4 - there is NO God, how do I know? I don't need to know!

Mike.

Mighty_Mouse

I dont believe in God , sorry. He's just pissed me off once to often .

Even if he does exist, I'm not gonna be his friend anymore cause he has been really lazy for an awful lot of ppl!!

BUT

BUT

BUT

that said. I do believe in the ideals and some of the structure provided by religion.

I'm brought up a catholic - and that whole/entire million and one things wrong argument

---

i do recognise the benefit it has had on my life.

Why not try and shape ppls character for the better.


So finally -

um - i dont believe in god, but slowly finding my way back to Religion ,

(was in mass 4 the first time in 4 years at easter)

D nominater

I believe a lot more than i disbelieve.
Proof arguments either way tend to be a bit crappy, and inconclusive.

JustHalf

First of all, thanks Gordon for the plug.

Originally posted by Silent Bob
I'd also have to go with option #4

Here's a good logical argument about the Christian god.

taken from http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kyle_gerkin/objections_sustained/obj1.shtml

That is a fairly shaky argument. It ignores free will completely, and the "he should" part is just strange.

HarryD, what's with this?

DeVore

I think I made my beliefs clear in that post God, Religion and The Clock.
(/me is too hung over to go looking for links... )

DeV.

Zukustious

Originally posted by Typedef
No proof, no god.

Thanks for calling.

There's also no proof that their isn't a God. I selected the third option, seeing as it's unprovable either way. No one can be sure if there is or isn't a God.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

There's also no proof that their isn't a God. I selected the third option, seeing as it's unprovable either way. No one can be sure if there is or isn't a God.

this is just me, but I really hate that argument. it just seems.. petty