Suicide

Jim

hey hey,

so, suicide eh? do u think a person can choose to end his/her life rationally and loically, without being classed as being depressed or having mental problems etc... ie. can a perfectly rational freethinking person choose to end their life.

Or is the will to live so embedded in the human conscience that it is impossible for a human being to end their lives with a clear mind. wud we have to be going through some extreme emotional state to even consider the action?

can it be as casual as refusing to do something u love just because ur not in the mood, or is it the ultimate choice that no "sane" person would even consider.

jimmeh:)

Redshift

The instinct for self preservation is one of the most basic and powerful instincts like all insticts it's there for a reason. usually for a person to be able to overide that there would have to be some sort of mental disorder of severe emotional stress in the case of emotional stress I suspect that the same person would likely not commit suicide had they been prevented from doing so and given the chance to calm down. I don't belive a sane person could casually just decide to take their own life there is invariably a causal factor.
BTW suicide is the biggest and most tragic waste of life that happens in Ireland today no matter what the problem is there is always help and a solution just pick up the phone.

Ryan

Riamfada

I believe that one does not have to be disturbed to take ones own life. However if it was allowed it would not fit in well with society. For example , you would have loved ones dying on a regular basis. It has always been in built into us that suicide is wrong. Simularly the way it has been inbuilt that murder is wrong. Its just a general acceptance. Having been touched by this topic in many ways, I do believe that although the right to life is garunteed. The right of the person to choose to waive that right should also be respected. However society must be protected. If we were to allow and accept that anyone and everyone could kill themselves at will then society would be extremely affected.
However for the case of terminaly ill patients , i do believe wholeheartedly that if the patient wishes to die than it should be. It is not up to the State to decide wether or not this person's failing health is sufferable. But then comes the question, where do you draw the line.

If somone is dying and is in pain and no longer wishes to live is death the answer. However If somone is not dying but ( sound of mind) is in pain living. Is it not the right of that person to end that pain?

Redshift

Originally posted by Grimes
However for the case of terminaly ill patients , i do believe wholeheartedly that if the patient wishes to die than it should be. It is not up to the State to decide wether or not this person's failing health is sufferable. But then comes the question, where do you draw the line.

If somone is dying and is in pain and no longer wishes to live is death the answer. However If somone is not dying but ( sound of mind) is in pain living. Is it not the right of that person to end that pain?

I belive you are refering to euthanasia I have conflicting views on this subject on one hand I belive life to be sacred and that it should be preserved if possible on the other I think a terminally ill patient with no prospect of recovery and who was suffering intollerabley but of sound mind may be justified in deciding to end their life. It's a bit of a minefield and I think to prevent abuse euthanasia would have to be approved on a case by case basis but then like Grimes said it's not up to the state to decide if it's sufferable.
Very interesting argument.

Ryan

ykt0di9url7bc3

For whatever disease you have, for whatever mental illness there is a cure, one cure that fixes all problems but at a high price and that cure is death.....

DeVore

If I was in permanent excruciating pain I would want to end my life. Beyond that I cant think of any reasonable reason outside of insanity to want to top yourself.

DeV.

bugler

Everyone should be free to do what they wish with their life, including ending it. Obviously in cases of disturbed people this determination of free will is harder to discern of course. Suicide should certainly not be illegal..your life is the only thing you truly own and cannot be taken away from you. The fact that 'we' might find someone ending their life for reasons other than terminal/painful illness incomprehensible is irrelevant. Who are we to tell someone to continue with their life if they feel different?

D nominater

"so, suicide eh? do u think a person can choose to end his/her life rationally and loically, without being classed as being depressed or having mental problems etc.."


...Yes, one of the most effective methods is making it look like murder..........

D nominater

I believe that you can be perfectly sane and still commit suicide perhaps becomes of pain or some other powerful similar emotion. I'd say that committing suicide just because life seems a bit meaningless or dull and enjoyable, are very rarely if ever reasons for suicide because of the will to live etc. But intense feelings of meaninglessness, doom or apathy to everything with undertones of global hate or whatever, or even remorse are much more commen reasons.
As well as that people may commit suicide to avoid unpleasantless such as severe pain or being eaten alive without actually being insane or in intense physical or emotional trauma(although situations that suicide seems a viable alternative to tend to create a bit of emotional and probably physical stress and trauma.)
It's not unknown, at least in the movies for broke married men especially to kill themselves so that their family will get the life insurance or whatnot.
There's also the case of forced suicides.
People can probably be very misguided,brainwashed and mistaken and thus commit suicide because of it, without insanity or extreme emotional states causing themselves to be depressed or in pain or whatever.For example they've been persuaded by one of these really persuasive nasty people that if they kill themselves they'll win the lotto or go to heaven or leave the matrix or save the world or something, but in this case being so misguided and so easy to misguide could they be considered sane, my guess more than a third and less than a half the time yes.
There's also the case of the "accidental suicide",for whatever reason you attempt to make a lame attempt at suicide but get lucky/unlucky and end your own life.Damn. Can that truly be considered suicide or is it accidental death, it's like manslaughter version of suicide, slightly.

I think that I, and most if not all people should have the right to commit suicide (protected?), although it affects many people around you in adverse,bad ways that most people don't equal in life, and it'll probably affect those you care about badly more so than others, causing even more distress than if you commited murder.

Riamfada

People who oppose this without any knolwedge of the sitation must find it hard to believe that a sane person would want to kill themselves. They have no idea of how that person's life is as theirs is probably enjoyable and judge the victims life to their own standards

Jim

the whole thing depends on a definition of rationality and sanity

can a person be perfectly sane?? perhaps the only sane people are "suicides". maybe they are the enlightened ones who see something we "sane" people cant. i personally think that suicide is perhaps the most rational decision anyone can make, because to make it means throwing away all insticnt that nature has given us for survival.

Riamfada

Originally posted by Jimeatsmenu
i personally think that suicide is perhaps the most rational decision anyone can make, because to make it means throwing away all insticnt that nature has given us for survival.

Thats a good point. Is that what makes us different to the animals. The fact that we can now control our primal instincts and see things in a more three dimentional light?

RapierX

Suicide is an option open to everyone right now. You can kill yourself anywhere, anyhow, any time. People that spend their whole lives trying to invent or improve something make me sick. Why bother when such a bunch of ungreatful assholes are next in line. A typical atheists thought, I perhaps see something on a yearly basis that makes me think, for the slightest moment, of something godly and creative. All bull****, to get goodness you have to burrow. If your you caught early enough with good parents and a nice happy up-bringing you have a greater chance of having 'life-reflexes sewn into you', whereupon suicide is never an option. But frankly it always is.

Kambika

Nobody asks you if you want to live so you should have the possibility to end your life anytime you wish. Why people commit suicide is another question and I dont think anyone will ever find out as the ones that want to die will die, I hate those people having 4 or 5 suicide attempts but it never works out or someone finds them. How stupid can you be ?!

Xterminator

I belive you are refering to euthanasia I have conflicting views on this subject on one hand I belive life to be sacred and that it should be preserved if possible on the other I think a terminally ill patient with no prospect of recovery and who was suffering intollerabley but of sound mind may be justified in deciding to end their life. It's a bit of a minefield and I think to prevent abuse euthanasia would have to be approved on a case by case basis but then like Grimes said it's not up to the state to decide if it's sufferable.
Very interesting argument.

Ryan

While you may believe life is sacred, it sounds to me like you are advocating enforcing this belief on other people,who may not share your belief.
IE You cant have euthanisa while writhing in pain, because we the majority believe life is sacred.

As the majority will never have faced extreme circumstances, like living with pain constantly, or facing the prospect of life as a vegtable etc, I don think it correct they get to enforce there life choices on those who do.

X

Trebor

insurance companies don't pay out if you top yourself it is one of the clauses in most contract's

in my view people should be able to end their lives only if living the rest of their lives would bring them pain. for those who are too afraid to live in the real world because they feel left out or worthless they should just cop on.

nobody is worthless the fact that when you walk down the road and someone has to go one way to not walk into you and then bumps into a long lost friend and becomes very happy at finding that person, there you life now has worth by simply living you have brought joy to someone else.

this can also go the other way aswell in that because you where there they could have move to avoid you and then not met that friend or be hit by a car. but still your life has worth because if you had not been alive he would still be alive so just existing gives your life meaning

D nominater

Quote "in my view people should be able to end their lives only if living the rest of their lives would bring them pain"

It's often not possible to know if this would be the case........especially emotional pain


Quote "nobody is worthless the fact that when you walk down the road and someone has to go one way to not walk into you and then bumps into a long lost friend and becomes very happy at finding that person,"

Sure, but it can easily happen that a person's existance causes much more pain and badness than it does any good

Kell

Originally posted by Jimeatsmenu
i personally think that suicide is perhaps the most rational decision anyone can make, because to make it means throwing away all insticnt that nature has given us for survival.

By definition your statement is flawed. If you commit suicide in sound mind and body, the very act of suicide is turning your back not only on your survival instincts but also what society has taught you to be wrong. Thats like saying "I know this is wrong, but hey, I am going to do it anyway". Thats not rational thought.

I am not saying that people dont have the right to choose ( I personally think they should have that right) but to say that it is a "rational" decision is mistaken.

K-

Beëlzebooze

just because society has taught you that something is wrong, does not mean society is right!

it's a collective opinion, not the definate be al and end all

patch

What the hell is wrong with you people? Why would anybody say it's ok for a person to kill themselves?? Fair enough, everybody should have the right to do and say whatever they want, but do you not think your taking the 'free expression' a bit too far??!!

Euthanasia is a different matter. In fact, If diagnosed with a terminal illness, I'd much rather go at the START of the pain than towards the end of it.

Incidently, it's common sense which tells me this, not society.

Jim

whats "wrong" with it?

patch

What's 'right' with it?? :rolleyes:

amp

Settle down now folks, back to big thinky paragraphs please.

patch

ahh, we're just chattin' amp!!
I'm pobably lucky that I can't see the merit's of suicide. If I had a friend who said they could, I'd reckon they needed my help. I could if I wanted cut off all my toes. Just because I can, doesn't make it a good idea. I really fail to see the point of saying anyone in their right mind would have a desire to kill themselves.
Are you saying it because you feel everyone has total free will? You reckon saying it's wrong means I'm denying people something?? What!!??

McGinty

If someone wants to kill themselves, there is nothing society can do about it, however a person who commits suicide will have my sympathy but not my approval. I fail to see how a rational person would kill themself.

Why would someone who is sane and rational want to kill themselves?

Ivan

Originally posted by Jimeatsmenu
hey hey,

so, suicide eh? do u think a person can choose to end his/her life rationally and loically, without being classed as being depressed or having mental problems etc... ie. can a perfectly rational freethinking person choose to end their life.

Or is the will to live so embedded in the human conscience that it is impossible for a human being to end their lives with a clear mind. wud we have to be going through some extreme emotional state to even consider the action?

can it be as casual as refusing to do something u love just because ur not in the mood, or is it the ultimate choice that no "sane" person would even consider.

jimmeh:)

Yes a perfectly rational freethinking person can choose to end his/her life.

Sure the will to live is embedded in the human conscience or instinct whatever you want to call it, but so is sex. You dont see every guy try to get a leg over every fine looking girl he comes across... err... bad example but you get the idea.

Imho, suicide is the ultimate cry for help. The world has forgotten about you and has gone on with its master plan and you feel like you've been screwed. Life seems empty, the thought of anything other than ending your life repulses you.

I really couldnt blame someone for ending his/her life, what gets to me is when people take a load of pills or try to hang themselves/cut their wrists and then call parents/ambulance.

There is a fine line between cry for help | Attention seeking.

In this modern world the line is getting smaller and smaller.

Draw your own conclusions.

amp

Originally posted by patch69
ahh, we're just chattin' amp!!

Ah I know, it's just we're running out of exclamation marks and question marks. National shortage tbh.

D nominater

"If someone wants to kill themselves, there is nothing society can do about it,"


to an extent there is ........................

guilt
men in white coats/m.i.w. institutions /padded gaol cells
shame
fear of societal repurcussions to others they know or how others would think of them etcetera(i suppose,but maybe not, even though they'd be dead)
prozac................."oh no i don't feel like crap mulching in my own depression anymore, now there's no way i can go through with this suicide thing"

but i agree that ultimately determined individuals and even not so determined people will succeed in killing themselves especially if they have the try try try again ethic going for/against them..

ykt0di9url7bc3

Originally posted by McGinty
Why would someone who is sane and rational want to kill themselves?

What if the pain of living out wieghs the fear of dying?

What if life seems to go against you at every turn and opertunity, and what if anything gained has come at a price that was always too high...where it has come to a stage of rejection of faith and luck, where hope can seems a nasty and treacherous emotion....



Prozac is not a garaunteed cure or helping hand, it can often make the situation seem worse...a pill is a pill is a pill...

TBH guilt & shame of the action is a catch 22, a persons well-being is the highest priority but when they feel that they cannot go on living they have overcome a fear of death, could it seem larger than hoping of aceptance from friends and family regarding the deed/motive....thats a personal thing and usually left to suicide notes or to admitting to friends/family of think of going through with the deed

D nominater

I don't think much of the following question as an intellectual mindbender, it doesn't seem to have much of an answer but what do you think anyway?

so say you think suicide is the only way out,
but you can't commit suicide because of all the bad that it would cause, like a pilot parachuting out of a dodgy plane leaving his family and friend passengers behind to plummet to doom (but if he stayed he'd crash the damn thing even worse keeping it going a little longer,and if he parachutes sher maybe he'll end up in a desert and dehydrate to death but at least he'll have gotten away from all the stress and the firey crash that's bound to ensue),

well what do you do then, are you just totally feiced?

ykt0di9url7bc3

Originally posted by D nominater
well what do you do then, are you just totally feiced?

Dilema yes...but its a still only a choice at the end of the day and what ever happens, that person will have to live/die with that choice made...wheter he/she cares that other people knowing about what was choosen is his/her own perogitove...

sink or swim, you maybe feiced but the choice has to be made

Caesar_Bojangle

I'm sure everyone has thought about doing it at sometime or another, even just briefly. At least i know i have, purely out of sheer curiosity to see whats actually there once you've pledged yourself entirely to commit the act. Is there an afterlife?

But you have to ask yourself when those obsessional christian sects commit mass suicide, do they take into account this one question Does taking your own life constitute murder in the eyes of god?

Life should be down to independent choices, but its not, where everyone is entitled to make those choices individually. Without interference from outside bodies who deem them insane. Some of the 'insane' have logical reasons for wanting to end their lives, just because its not the norm doesnt necessarily mean its wrong. But saying that if all my friends, family, casual associates and lets say contemporaries were to do it, i'd be a very lonely young man with not a lot of people to talk to. Maybe we are the ones who are selfish for stopping them from going ahead with the act, as we'll be deprived of their company/presence?

Jim

suicide is about the only thing which keeps any of us sane.

no matter how bad things get, and how much pain your in, suicide is always there as a last resort, and easy way out. imagine suicide wasnt possible.....that there was nothin u could do to stop whatever pain u are in. it would be like falling off a really high cliff, knowing you are going to die, but not being able to do anything about it.

Corega

In my own opinion suicide can be undertaken by people who are both sane and insane. Some people feel the need to take their lives away for no aparent reason at all, or for a very meagre reason. There are others, however, who have suffered and feel the only way to take that suffering away is by ending their lives.

If we take an example, say Sylvia Plath, a poet of the 50's and 60's. She ended her life by taking an inordinate amount of sleeping pills and then she stuck her head in a gas oven. Why did she do it? Well in her poetry, her rather sombre poetry, she hint's that her love life was in a sham. Now she was obviosuly tormented by this, and her divorce with fellow poet Ted Hughes left her depressed. But, she had been suffering from mental illness for a large part of her life, the divorce and ending of her love life only heightened this depression. So the point of that is what we percieve as little thing's that might happen frequently in everyday life can be taken far out of context.

STaN

This is a subject that has been very previlent in my life for the past few years and is personal experience that hopefully will give people a perspective on suicide from someone who was almost driven to it.

It started as soon as those hormones and physical changes started to hit and finding myself becoming clumsy and emotional mood swings from being the king of the world to being an ugly misunderstood clog in the wheel. We've all done it.

I don't consider myself insane, but I don't believe that anyone is completely sane. It wasn't insanity that drove me to consider the option, but depression and numerous social issues I was having. It would have been irrationality that would have made me follow through with that option.

How far did i go? Well, I was VERY close to doing it on numerous occastions and each time I had massive, very emmotional; self explorations leaving me drained of tears and quite shaken for hours afterwards. These probes were me trying to rationalise an irrational descision. Which is impossible and looking back they were a test of mental strenght and will to overcome the problems, which I have. There were nothing casual about them AT ALL!
I went through every pro, every con, thousands of times, each time and not even the extreme emotional turmoil (that pushed me to this point in the first place) from events around me, could tip the balance.

It was sanity, rationale and logic saved me.

This does not leave allot of room for the argument that someone who is not depressed or with any mental imbalance can just override the instinct to survive without cause without being irrational or lacking either mentally or physically (brain damage).

As simple as "Red or Blue?" ... NO

Ro: maaan!

STaN, if I may...
You say it was logic that saved you. Does that mean that if the cons had outweighed the pros, it would then have been an irrational decision to not go through with it?
My understanding of your situation is that you put your depression aside in an attempt to logicly think about your options. [Weighing up the pros and cons; Seeing if you could justify this option.] Clearly in your case you could not justify it. However if one were to analise their situation and come to the conclusion that there were more cons to living than pros, would then the logical course of action not be to end one's life?

Incidently, there's a lot of talk on this thread about instinct and suicide going against it. But there's also a lot of talk about suicide being irrational. If it's not a rational decision then it has to be an instinctive one...

STaN

Where the pro's and con's come in is if some1 is in that situation where they are weighing it up, I believe it is a test of a persons will, mental strenght and rationale to see beyond whatever is causing them to consider it.

I can see that if a person does weigh up the pro's and con's and figures that they are better off dead, then they are being irrational. If they are rational, and there is some reason to live, then they will choose to live. Depression may result in them choosing the opposite.
A decision which fights our inbuilt instincts and failsafes cannot happen unless they were in an extreme emotional state; having lost all hope and not believing that things can get better. I believe that life is always preferable to death.

If it is irrational, and a colored by a mental imbalance can it be determined as an instinct? I wouldn't say so. But that is a debate on mental illness. In my experience, depression warps perspective and the way we see things as, are not always as they are. So it is misguided instinct if it is instinct at all.

patch

I totally agree with stan. We've all most likely had fleeting thoughts of suicide at some point. I can see how for some people it has it's merits, But, maybe I wasn't clear enough earlier on in this thread.-Anybody who agrees that suicide has any merits is either suicidal or depressed, at least occasionally.

The worrying thing is that I've heard recently of two guys, in seperate instances, Who were doctors, commiting suicide.
I would have thought that the medical profession would have very low numbers, in that regard.

vasch_ro

I will throw in my two euro cents worth, in my experience suicide is not carried out by calm rational people, it is people who in some way feel alienated , lonely, or who are suffering from depression or mental disease of some sort or another.
Statisically speaking Ireland sadly has a very high rate of suicide and the spike area is southern Ireland, and young males say 18 to 25 are the most likely group to commit suicide in Ireland.
John Waters writes about this topic in the times from time to time and gives this somewhat taboo topic a voice.

It is also interesting to note that most people who suicide nearly always give warnings of some of some sort of their intentions, they may talk about how they would take their life etc etc they
give some signal ,clue or warning sign, you would be amazed how many young irish men commit suicide after a relationship break up , in my own personal experience limited as it is this is a key factor( also it is not something I have ever tried personally)
Loneliness is another factor I think feeling completely alone in the world it is a very hard trhing to imagine in this connected world of ours

"The Central Statistics Office in Ireland recorded the number of suicides that were registered in 2001 as 448. Almost four times as many men as women committed suicide in that year, 356 males and 92 females. 24% of all deaths in the 15-24 age group in 2001 were recorded as suicide"

I think the real question is why did four times as many men want to end their lives in that year ??
also here is an interesting link for people who would like more info on suicide and support
http://www.suicideawareness.com/main.htm

50Cent

As Devore said if someone is excruciating permanent pain and theres no solution, then they shud be able to do it.

But otherwise, i belive it occurs from not being self fulfilled. Some may argue, that you can have everything in the world and still not be fulfilled, basically material things cant do the trick. So a solution may be religion?(i dunno)

Basically there is somthing there for everyone to make sure they have a fulfilling life, some just dont know how or where to start.

I dont know, im just trying to relate to someone who was in my school that did it.

Jim

in "the slate" this month...

"..... the irish suicidology [ias] say that people who talk or think about suicide are most likely to kill themselves........."


were all screwed:eek: