Thought I should warn people

Silent Bob · 27-04-2003 2:58pm #1

There's cops with speed-guns sat on the approach to the M50 from Ballinteer.

You've no excuse now

Turner · 27-04-2003 9:33pm

Is that on the hill approaching the motorway. Ive seen trucks been pulled over in the past few days but surely a truck couldnt break the speed limit going up that hill ?

Silent Bob · 27-04-2003 10:16pm

It's the one on the road that goes past Wesley College. Of course they're gone now, saw them pull a couple of cars over, into the estate, blocking residents driveways...

ToxicPaddy · 28-04-2003 12:15pm

Originally posted by Silent Bob
It's the one on the road that goes past Wesley College. Of course they're gone now, saw them pull a couple of cars over, into the estate, blocking residents driveways...

Had that problem a few years back, the cops kept pulling into our driveway to try and catch speeders..

In the end the father had to go down and say ask them to leave...
the excuse being, he doesnt agree with speeding but we had to live there and the backlash for any neighbours caught would be on us for leaving the cops park there in the first place..

they believed it too.. lol.. works everytime..

Ba$tard · 28-04-2003 2:31pm

Dead on!

If he didnt leave I would have blocked his view of the road with a car, which is not doing anything illegal.

That or keep f4rting upwind of him.....

bertiebowl · 28-04-2003 2:37pm

Speed traps appeared over the last weekend on the way down the Dundrum bypass, with a cop on motorbike hiding behind the bridge.

Also on the way down off the M50 to Ballinteer, just before the roundabout

BE CAREFUL OUT THERE.......

Saruman · 28-04-2003 2:45pm

Do cops get commission for catching speeders?

Stephen · 28-04-2003 3:27pm

No, but I understand they may be given quotas to fulfill.

yankinlk · 28-04-2003 4:01pm

wheres the mod to lock delete explode this thread? very very bad image for boards.ie to be seen alerting users to speed traps.

Silent Bob · 28-04-2003 4:24pm

Originally posted by yankinlk
wheres the mod to lock delete explode this thread? very very bad image for boards.ie to be seen alerting users to speed traps.

Surely speed traps are set up in areas where excessive speeding for the conditions leads to danger.

So the point in them would be to cause people to slow down, hence increasing safety.

So people who know there is a speed trap will be driving more slowly.

In which case people knowing about the speed traps is a good thing.

Otherwise speed traps don't have an impact on safety and might be viewed by cynical people purely as a cash-cow.

Now that all that's out of the way, if I'm out of line then any mods feel free to lock/delete/explode this thread.

Turner · 28-04-2003 5:50pm

I live in the area and would like the idea of people slowing down in those areas. Im sure An Garda would too, they prefer to see no speeding drivers in view of some of the accident they have seen.

Chief.

Young Sid · 28-04-2003 6:26pm

Had that problem a few years back, the cops kept pulling into our driveway to try and catch speeders..

I'd be delighted to have them in my driveway & slow the blastards down. Lot of kids on my road.

daveirl · 28-04-2003 8:17pm

This post has been deleted.

Bigalow · 29-04-2003 3:38pm

Just a quick question. I thought it was illegal fro the cops to hide the car, jeep or bike and then hide them self's behind a road sing so that the road users could not see them??? To me that is not a deterrent just a money racket. I always thought they had to have the car in view with the lights on in order to sit on the side of the road with the speed gun.

Bard · 29-04-2003 3:42pm

Originally posted by Bigalow
Just a quick question. I thought it was illegal fro the cops to hide the car, jeep or bike and then hide them self's behind a road sing so that the road users could not see them??? To me that is not a deterrent just a money racket. I always thought they had to have the car in view with the lights on in order to sit on the side of the road with the speed gun.

I never heard of this. Can you provide any source or any reason WHY it would be illegal for them to have the car out of sight and take speed readings from a hidden position themselves?

Just slow down.

What matters is what the speed limit is, now where the speed traps are.

Bigalow · 29-04-2003 3:52pm

Well if its suppose to be a deterrent to slow people down they should be visible. Other wise people like my self would think it is nothing more than another way to make money of the Irish people who are already paying outrages prices for car insurance among other things but that is away from the point. One such place they do this is on the lucan bypass they hide the car and then hide them self's behind one of the road singes people don't know that there are there until its too late and jam on and before you know it there is a pile up. Since they have started speed trapping on that road the % of accidents have gone up.

Bard · 29-04-2003 4:23pm

I dunno Bigalow, I've seen them do both - use the speed gun while they and their marked car are clearly visible, and drive the car up a side road and hide themselves in a bush. I can only assume that one is intended to deter people from speeding and the other is intended to catch them while doing it.

And if more money goes into the coffers of the state from the pockets of those breaking the law, that's fine by me. If you don't speed, then they won't be sending you a fine and hence "making money out of you". People wouldn't have to "jam on" at the place you mentioned there if they weren't travelling too fast in the first place.

Pimp Ninja · 29-04-2003 4:28pm

I was going to quote part of bigelows post, but theres no point really.

Its that sort of attitude that I find completely rediculous. A speed limit is set on a given road. You are required by law to drive at that speed limit, I'm not going to argue suitability of the specific limits, but the law is the law. You did learn to drive didnt you?? You do know what those circular signs with the numbers mean dont you?? Because from what youre saying it seems you think that they mean "Drive as fast as you like as long as youre not caught."

Well listen boyo, cop yourself on. If you are driving above that speed then you are a completely irresponsible driver, not only endangering yourself, but your passengers and other road users.

The point you make about slamming on the breaks further elaborates my point about the irresponsible nature of this driving style. You wouldnt have to slam on the breaks if you were not speeding, if you were not breaking the law. Then you try to blame the pile up on the Gardaí, the men and women that make it their job to put themselves into dangerous situations to keep us safe, in our homes and on our roads.

I would have absolutely no hesitation in helping the gardaí and allowing them to hide anywhere they liked. Not just because children are in the area, but because the average Irish motorist, portrayed kindly by Bigalow in this thread, will do whatever the hell he likes and try to blame somebody else for his irresponsible driving, as long as hes not caught.
And if an accident is caused, its because the gardai were hiding and he didnt have time to break within the speed limit, and the person in front of him was too close, etc etc...

The sooner motorists with this attitude are removed from the roads, the better for the rest of us. When they are taken off the roads, us safe drivers will be rewarded with our lower insurance premiums. Unfortunately the Gardaí are not in a full state to be able to enforce the penalty points system to its fullest exetent, to be able to punish these dangerous drivers on the spot, and then have it reflected on their insurance premiums. Because thats the only thing they'll understand, when it hits tehm in their pockets...

</rant>

ToxicPaddy · 29-04-2003 5:09pm

Originally posted by Young Sid
I'd be delighted to have them in my driveway & slow the blastards down. Lot of kids on my road.

I live in the country side between 2 towns and the main road between them goes right past my home..

The road is very good and the surface is top notch so most of the time you see guys speeding in that road..

Kids are not a worry as no one is ever out on that road, bar the odd crazy guy walking his dog..

Hiding in peoples driveways isnt gonna work as there are only a handful of entrances and sideroads coming onto that road and they are a fair distance apart.. the road is about 10 miles long.. so it would be very easy to slow down coming up to one and then
floor it as soon as you are past them..

It would be better to be seen, make their presence felt and not be hiding in dicthes and driveways.. its not a hard road to patrol and lotsa straights to catch speeding drivers on, but the gardai just dont bother..

Dunno why, if they want to make their quota, this road will do it for them no bother...

:rolleyes:

Silent Bob · 29-04-2003 9:49pm

It seems to me that putting a big flashing sign saying "Speed Trap Ahead" on a road and having a speed trap hidden somewhere on that road would be far more effective in slowing all vehicles down then just having a hidden speed trap that only stops a few vehicles.

Bigalow · 30-04-2003 9:03am

Well GIMP NINJA I feel you have an anger problem may I suggest anger management. Did you come onto this thread looking for an argument ??

First of all do you even drive ?? If you do which I find hard to be leave with your mentality. Your saying you have never
broke the speed limit well you are al lying c1nt.

"Then you try to blame the pile up on the Gardaí, the men and women that make it their job to put themselves into dangerous situations to keep us safe, in our homes and on our roads."
Don't make me laugh they are at the top of the list when it comes to braking the law. They keep us safe in our homes and on our roads you really haven't a clue what you are talking about. where are you living out in the sticks the way you are talking. The Gardaí have no respect for any road users. At Christmas on the lucan bypass they killed two innocent people who where on there way home to there kids. The Gardaí where doing well over 100mph in a 40 mph zone and where not even going to an accident or robbery they had no sirens or lights on at the time . There light was red and broke it smashed into the car that had a green light and send the car over the other side of the road the woman was killed out right and her X husband was trapped in the car. When the other cops can they went striate over to the other cops and completely ignored the innocent people that where dieing as a result of your great Gardaí. One other man that was at the seen had to scream and should at them to help the people that where trapped in there wreck and what did the Gardaí say to him ???? They told him to be quiet or he will be arrested. needless to say the Gardaí got away with KILLING two people they where trying to keep safe as you put it. The Gardaí sicken me They think they are above the law they are nothing but low life scum not more that a common thug.
That is getting away from the point in hand but just something to show you that the Gardaí are not always here to help us and are far from it. The point you made about kids on the road what are you talking about ???? What kind of irresponsible parent would let there kid play on a road I would not let my kid out to play on it.
Just to clear something up. I am not talking about doing crazy speeds on the road I am talking about 5 - 10 mph over the limit everybody dose it and all I am saying is that we should adopted the attitude of the English and worn people that there are speed trappers ahead so as to lesson the % of accidents caused by lat braking when speed traps are seen to late.
Here is a link to the English way of doing thing and they have a much lower rate of road deaths than Ireland http://beldirect.co.uk/law.htm

Bard · 30-04-2003 9:32am

Bigalow, it is the JOB of the Gardaí to protect and serve the Irish people. One or two isolated incidents where they may have caused accidents don't change that.

As regards speeding, saying that "everybody" does it is simply technically inaccurate. A LOT of people do it... but that doesn't make it right. Your apparent theory that people should ignore the law, drive at whatever speeds THEY believe are okay and only slow down when they know the Gardaí are watching is utterly ridiculous.

There *is* obviously a little bit of leeway given for the brief period while you're overtaking someone, - i.e.: that 5 or 10mph extra kick required to nip past them - but you're not allowed to maintain speeds like that for obvious reasons. Laws are there for a reason. If you don't agree with the law, that's your perogative, but that doesn't give you the right to BREAK it. Do you really feel the need to defend the actions of those that do? Can you not accept that what they do is wrong?

The facts are simple. Speeding is dangerous and illegal. The garda speed traps are there both to deter and to catch people who flaunt the laws on speeding. An answer to less people dying on the roads is simply that people should drive more carefully and not drive at excessive speeds - NOT that people should use radar detectors. Whether or not the speed traps should be more visible or not is irrelevant as people shouldn't BE speeding. If you are, you probably deserve to be caught.

Your insulting comments towards Pimp Ninja are just plain rude and inappropriate, especially from someone who is presumably not terribly well acquainted with this community web site. I'm sure the guy can defend himself but anyway, - suggesting he has anger management problems, calling him a "lying c*nt" and saying that he hasn't a clue what he is talking about shows a lack of maturity and propensity for intelligent discussion on your part - and it's not really what I'd imagine is acceptable here.

Are you aware that in a recent poll, Ireland came 3rd in Europe when it came to Road Rage? Over 85% of drivers surveyed admitted to regularly being very annoyed at other road users. Some of the top reasons for the annoyance were - people using bus lanes illegally, people overtaking in the slow lane, and idiots flashing you from behind because they want to overtake you when you're ALREADY overtaking other traffic and driving at or close to the limit & in close traffic. I have no time for those particular guys and I actually brake rather than pulling over to the slow lane - which would just allow them speed off at ridiculous velocity, endangering other road users as they do.

Anyway... thats my 2 cents. I expect you'll probably just rubbish it and disregard it, but I felt like saying it all the same

[edited for clarity's sake]

Rafter · 30-04-2003 9:42am

I agree that Irish motorists in general are very poor when it comes to adherence to the national speed limits but I find it disgusting that our law enforcement officers find it necessary to hide in every ditch and hollow in order to catch me doing 73 on the motorway.
You can argue the point that the roads legal limit is 70MPH full stop but these rules are blatantly thrown out the window when Bertie wants to canvas for votes or Mary wants to get to the races. Then you have the Minister (sorry can't remember his name) speeding on the Port Laoise by pass, his excuse for this crime "it was a good day with good visibility in a good car". I drive a car that fits that criteria do you think this explanation would work for me if I was stopped?.

One road I am familiar with is the N4 toward Maynooth. While the slip road for the Celbridge by pass was in place they enforced a 50MPH limit on the 70MPH motorway for a distance of about a mile. The reason for this is quite clear. The legal speed restrictions placed on a lorry are 55MPH and with the huge increase in trucks for that particular job then the speed limit must be amended. Also you have the workers safety to think of and the 50mph Limit is fine. However I was on my way home on SUNDAY when I came across a Garda with a speed trap in the 50MPH area. Why was this necessary with no trucks or workers present at 7pm on a Sunday, the road is a motorway with the temporary exception of this mile stretch so if that is not clear evidence of a rip off to the Irish motorist them nothing is.
The idea of the penalty points system is to improve road safety and in doing so stop road carnage. 73MPH on a 70MPH motorway is not the reason why this was introduced IMO. The speed "traps" should be located in Accident black spots and near schools or built up areas. They should as in England be clearly visible "to provide the driver with advance warning of accident blackspots (where cameras are usefully located) and to warn you if you are under covert observation from hidden cameras".
Why is it that speed camera detectors are illegal in Ireland?, it wouldn't have anything to do with the cash cow taking a beating if everyone was aware of the Garda presence. As I stated above if the "traps" are there to help us then surely a detector will help use even more as you will be aware of blackspots etc. well in advance.

Zascar · 30-04-2003 9:50am

Originally posted by Silent Bob
Surely speed traps are set up in areas where excessive speeding for the conditions leads to danger.
So the point in them would be to cause people to slow down, hence increasing safety.
So people who know there is a speed trap will be driving more slowly.
In which case people knowing about the speed traps is a good thing.
Otherwise speed traps don't have an impact on safety and might be viewed by cynical people purely as a cash-cow.

In Sweeden they paint thier gatso cameras bright Orange. Some places make them more visible also: http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso3.htm . They think exactly this way, if you know to slow down where accidents are more likely to happen, the end result is safer roads.

I saw on the news a few months ago about a website that reports the locations of known speedtraps in Ireland (http://www.speedtraps.ie.nu/) and there was a guard being interviewed saying that they are completely in favour or these sites as it stops people speeding in the more risky places keeping speed lower in there areas...

Funny thing is I drive fast and I have only ever got caught speeding in what I would regard as places where is it relativly safe to exceed the speed limit... Mainly the Arklow Bypass - has to be one of the best roads in ireland, and under the UCD Bridge... 50MPH there is far safer than 35mph in a 30mph zone...

I think the Guards should rethink their strategy...

Mythago · 30-04-2003 10:33am

There really is 2 cases for speed traps, hidden & visible. The visible ones act as a detterent & well, the hidden ones catch regular speeders.

From my own experience when driving I do regularly speed, and when I approach an area which regularly has a speed trap or with signposted cameras I slow down & pretty much as soon as I'm clear I hit the gas back upto whatever I had been doing, clear in the knowledge that it is unlikely there'll be a cop anytime soon down the road! On the other hand I've been caught 8 times by gardai jumping out from behind fences or driving unmarked cars... which has made me slow down, admittedly not initially as I accelerated away with my fine in hand, but afterwards I would be at or just slightly above the limit. At least until the memory of the fine started to wear off.

Since the advent of penalty points I've copped on dramatically, at least for a few months, then old habits came back along with getting pulled for speedin, fortunately he let me off (it was 4:30 am and I was at the back of a queue of cars!?), but once again I've slowed down.

So I suppose my arguement is both cases work! My never being caught by a camera or blatantly obvious trap is testament that they slow cars down & being caught by hidden cops and slowing down is testament that they work too...... But I would argue for more hidden traps: keeps drivers more alert!

And before anyone calls me a nutter or irresponsible driver all my fines were recieved on open roads generally late at night or very early morning in 60 or 70 MPH zones at about 15/20mph above the limit. Not much of an excuse i know.........

and idiots flashing you from behind because they want to overtake you when you're ALREADY overtaking other traffic

This actually a pet hate of mine.... and not at the people flashing! I admit I am 1 of those people that flash, but at people who insist on using the outside lane at 65mph and who usually seem totally unaware that the car they were passing is now 50m behind them!

Borzoi · 30-04-2003 11:55am

Originally posted by Bard

As regards speeding, saying that "everybody" does it is simply technically inaccurate. A LOT of people do it... but that doesn't make it right.

I would tend to agree with Bigalow, all the people that I have driven with have broken the speed limit at one point or another. I can't speak for "everybody" but then again who can.

Though I would also agree with Bard and say show some manners ttere Bigalow.

The ironic thing that I find about sppeding is the moral tone taken by those against it. Speed limits are arbitarily set by local councils, not by the gards or road designers, the limit is often political in nature rather than safety.

Secondly, as a general rule slower is safer, we have our arbitary safety limits set at 30mph, 60mph and 70mph. If theses were all reduced by 10mph and all drivers abided, it would reduce the levels of road deaths. But we don't. As a society we accept a certain amount of road carnage, that's just the way it is.

Victor · 30-04-2003 4:17pm

Apparently the autopsy on the two Gardaí that were killed in Stillorgan last year (garda car -v- joyrider) showed the Garda driver to be twice over the alcohol limit.

Bigalow · 30-04-2003 4:23pm

That's what I am talking about. They are the baggiest breakers of the law as I said before they think they are above the law. In saying that there are the hand full that do there job and aren't on a power trip.

Pimp Ninja · 01-05-2003 4:01pm

Originally posted by Bigalow
Well GIMP NINJA I feel you have an anger problem may I suggest anger management. Did you come onto this thread looking for an argument ??

First of all do you even drive ?? If you do which I find hard to be leave with your mentality. Your saying you have never
broke the speed limit well you are al lying c1nt.

Insulting me will do nothing other than make your argument look weaker. What led you to believe that I have an anger problem? Can you see the expression on my face to tell that I am angry from where you are sitting? From the statment you have just made here it makes me think that it is in fact you that needs the anger managment. Letting my opinion upset you so much as to insult me. If you dissagree with my point, then argue against the point. Dont try to sart a personal argument with me, because frankly I'm not going to be drawn into it.

To answer your questions; No I did not come looking for an argument. Your made a point about speeding, and speed cameras, I disagreed with your point. So I wanted to give my opinion. Thats what a discussion board is for. I want to tell you and everyone why the attitude you are putting accross here is such an irresponsible one to have. Yes I do Drive. I have been driving on Irish roads for approximately 6 years give or take, and it is this experience that I draw from to form my opinions.
I'd like to know what you consider my mentality to be? I consider myself to be an honest, law abiding citizen, hense my distaste for those that break the law, and if my post above has made you think different then I'd appriciate it if you PM'ed me as to why this is, (the motors board is certainly not a place for that discussion).
Finally the "Lying C**t" statment you have made. I'd appreciate if you got your facts straight before you hurl further abuse at me. At no point in my earlier post, did I either confirm or deny wheather I abided by, or broke our roads speed laws. Having said that, for the record, I do not speed, and abide by all posted speed limits. I'm also pretty sure at no point in your life have you ever seen me drive. So you cannot really call me a liar without any proof to back up your argument. So unfounded insults thrown into the mix = a really bad start to your argument. Finally with regards to living in the sticks, I'll just say that I live within a 5 mile radius of O'Connell Bridge, Dublin.

If one were to make judgement by what we post on a public bulletin board then it wouldnt be very clever really. From the amount of spelling mistakes you have made above I could judge you to be about as intelligent as an 8 year old. However, I do not think these things, because frankly I'm not able to type, and I can make just as many mistakes as that myself. So you can see how easy it is to be wrong about somebody. Just to note this was not a dig at your spelling.

Don't make me laugh they are at the top of the list when it comes to braking the law. They keep us safe in our homes and on our roads you really haven't a clue what you are talking about.

The Gardaí are paid to protect the populus of this country, and for the most part they do. In my experience I have had nothing but good dealings with members of the Gardaí. Yes there are isolated incidents where the gardaí are responsible. However as you try to imply that the gardaí are responsible for every incident that happens.
Not having a clue what I'm talking about.. I could say the same to you, but its your opinion, based on your experience. What I have said, is my opinion based on my experience. So in my experience I know exactly what I am talking about. And thats the whole point really...
As you have said this is getting away from the point of the discussion, so I'll leave that there.

The point you made about kids on the road what are you talking about ???? What kind of irresponsible parent would let there kid play on a road I would not let my kid out to play on it.

The point I made about children on the road was in reply to Young Sid above where he said

By Young Sid
I'd be delighted to have them in my driveway & slow the blastards down. Lot of kids on my road.

If for this alone it is reason enough to put gardaí out hidden with cameras near housing areas. The safety of children is paramount to every parent, and anything that increases this safety should be welcomed. There is one of those unmarked vans with the camera equipment in the back of it that parks up the road from my house on occasion, and I am glad to see it there, because there are several schools in my area.

Just to clear something up. I am not talking about doing crazy speeds on the road I am talking about 5 - 10 mph over the limit everybody dose it

5 - 10 MPH over the limit would not require you to slam on the brakes to reduce your speed for an upcoming checkpoint. A gentle controled application of a good set of brakes on a good road should be sufficient to slow any cars speed by 5 - 10 mph. Yes I am aware of different stopping distances at different speeds... But you are not talking about stopping, you're talking about reducing your speed by 5mph. That shouldnt require you to jam on, or was it that you were not paying full attention to your surroundings, and didnt see the camera ahead because of this?

and all I am saying is that we should adopted the attitude of the English and worn people that there are speed trappers ahead so as to lesson the % of accidents caused by lat braking when speed traps are seen to late.

I think that this is just a rotten idea. I've driven on English roads, and yes theres a hell of a lot of speed cameras, and the majority, if not all of them are signposted. However this just leeds to, and has been proven by an independant research study, that the drivers have advance warning of the speed trap, so slow down, then once they're passed it they resume their normal speed. resulting in the speeders having advanced notice of the speed traps and knowing when it's "safe" to speed. The attitude of speed camera coming, obey the speed limit, passed the speed camera, safe to drive fast now, is not only dangerous but its irresponsible and inconsiderate as well.

I think that speeding in all forms is just rediculous, and the Gardaí should use any tactic available to them to catch the people that take their lives, and the lives of others into their hands every time they go out on the road. Your excuse of everybody does it is just rediculous. I'll quote a thousand Irish mothers, "Would you stick your hand in the fire if little Johnny did?"

Just because others do it and get away with it, does not make it any more legal than it is. The fact of the matter is that it is the law, and there are no excuses when it comes to breaking the law. As Bard says it is technically inaccurate as well, a lot of people may do it, but not everybody, and its still illegal.

I'm getting really sick of other careless motorists, with what I'm assuming to be a similar attitude as yours, ie they speed and dont care unless theres a camera, taking my life, and the life of others into ther hands because of their impatience/incompetence to control the car/whatever reason they can think of.

gurramok · 01-05-2003 6:24pm

I fully agree with Pimp Ninja here.

Since penalty points came in, road fatalities have come down alot.
Speedsters were responsible for a large proportion of fatalities, excessive speeding does kill !

Catching speedsters whether by visible cameras or gardai hiding behind ditches will catch the irresponsibile drivers out there.
The Gards can camp in my front garden 24/7 if they want to

Doing over 70mph on the M50 is clearly speeding, dangerous and irresponsible, you will still get to your destination more safely than if you were doing 80mph.

Speeding overtakers with that 'bigger car than yours' mentality are the worse kind

Personal wish would be for a hidden & visible speed traps on every road...if only

Zascar · 01-05-2003 7:25pm

Speeding is the cause a large portion of accident on our roads, with the majority of the rest being caused by general bad driving. They should get to the source and think about the eduation the general public on proper driving, and improve the standards of driving on our roads. They had a crappy add campaign on tv for a while, but it nees to be far better than that. I think people should have to retake their test (or at least be forced to take a series of lessons) every 5 years or so. I know many people both young and old, who although have passed their tests, be it years ago or recently, are honestly terrible drivers, and far more of a hazard to the road than so called 'Boy Racers' - like me...

Yes I drive fast, but I'm not an idiot. I don't actually drive way over the speed limit, especially since the intro of the points system. My thrill is acelleration, and how can you blame me with the average speeds and traffic on our roads! (Actually I'm sure many of you will anyway, but what can I do). I don't do it in high risk areas with children or cross traffic etc. I have a quick car and I like to use it - but I don't want to loose it - i.e. my licence - so call me what you want but I think I'm being pretty responsible - well, for a "Boy Racer" anyway...

Silent Bob · 01-05-2003 10:39pm

Originally posted by Zascar
Speeding is the cause a large portion of accident on our roads, with the majority of the rest being caused by general bad driving.

You're really going to have to back that claim up.

This is the UK department of transports breakdown of RTA causes. Out of 556 accidents only 19 were found to be due to excessive speed.

200 were due to maneouvre error. That's over ten times the number of accidents due to excessive speed.

I know these are UK statistics but I can't see any reason why they would be wildly different to ours (I couldn't find any Ireland related RTA causation breakdowns).

KinSlayer · 02-05-2003 12:17am

Speed is just a high profile scapegoat for the road carnage. The government and the media have for the last ages being parping on about how its speed thats at fault for the majority of the accidents. why speed? if your cynical one might think its because speed can be tackled in a highly visible way that keeps the majority of the people happy that something is being done to tackle the road carnage. Also helps that they can make money out of it, especially in these times.

no matter what you do there will always be those who try and push the car beyond their abilities and kill themselves and also there are those that just commit suicide.

One thing I have found about fast drivers is that the proportion of considerate fast drivers is higher than the proportion of considerate slow drivers. they also tend to be more aware of what is going on around them where as slower drivers seem not to care, beleiving that because they are going at or near the speed limit then they dont need to look in their mirrors.

its a shame they dont teach beginners how to drive on the open road and motorways, to drive in the slow lane on less passing out a car in front, to use the hard shoulder to let other cars that want to go faster pass by and to thank other people when they in turn are let past.

In America they have a law that if you have 5 or more cars behind you must do everything you can to let them by safely. It would be nice to see a similar rule hear but i wont be holding my breath for it.

For those that think that holding up another driver that wants to go faster saves people ahead from danger. It might, or it might actually put you into alot more danger. The longer the car is behind the less patient the driver becomes and the more dangerous. Chances are left there long enough they will pass in an idiotic place putting themselves, you and any on coming cars in extreme danger.

These days the 2 biggest dangers i find on the the roads are people who follow each other too closely behind the car in front leaving no gaps for passing out safely (then there are some that dont believe in letting you back in if you are passing) even though the rule says that you are supposed to be a metre for every mile an hour. 60mph = 60 metres. The other big danger is the people that believe its ok to pull out in front of you if they reckon that there is enough time to break.

a prioritised list of dangers starting with the most dangerous

people that pull out right in front of you
tailgaters
people that dont know where they are going and just jam on or indicate at the last second
people that indicate left when they are passing a car on the inside that is turning right (thus causing the car behind to think that its going to go left and pulls to the right, into the path of the right turning car)
drunks
speeders

I generally dont care much about speeders as i just let them by and get on with it. much safer in my opinion and they also might flush out the hidden gardi men

Bigalow · 02-05-2003 8:14am

not even going to reply to pimp ninja. Way to much waffle. In his eyes the Gardaí are the be all and end all of law enforcement. His opinion and he is fully entitled to it.

Bigalow · 02-05-2003 8:19am

the Gardaí should be more concerned with catching really criminals rather than making a quick €

Pimp Ninja · 02-05-2003 9:00am

Originally posted by Bigalow
not even going to reply to pimp ninja. Way to much waffle. In his eyes the Gardaí are the be all and end all of law enforcement. His opinion and he is fully entitled to it.

Gurramock seems to be able to understand my point. However I wont let this drag on anymore, I'l accept your apology for the personal attacks and insulting me, because you saying that I'm entitled to my opinion seems to be the closest thing to an apology that I'm going to get.

The gardaí are not the be all and end all of law enforcement. All I said was that they have a thankless job, and that I support their position. I have agreed that they are not perfect. I was arguing that they are not all as corrupt as you are making them out to be.

the Gardaí should be more concerned with catching really criminals rather than making a quick €

Criminal : One that has committed or been legally convicted of a crime
Stop me if I'm wrong, but speeding is against the law, therefore its a crime.
Are you saying that you should be let away with minor crimes and only convicted if its a serious crime?
If so where do you draw the line?
Would it be ok to pinch a womans arse and not call that sexual harassment, because after all its not a full on rape?

I might be going off topic here a little, and for that I apologise. The point I'm trying to illustrate here, is that I believe every crime should be punished regardless of how small or big the crime is.

I agree that the Gardaí are not perfect and they have made mistakes on occasion. But they are nowhere near as bad as you make them out to be. I firmly believe that their job is a hard job, and they rarely get any thanks for it. I respect them for the work that they do, and I believe that over all they are doing a good job.

After having been in an accident, thanks to a wonderful lady that wasnt sure what a red light meant, I am left unable to ride a motorcyle. Unable not in the sense that I cant, but in the sense that it is physically too painful to do so. Thanks to the Gardaí, one of which witnessed the accident, she was prosecuted, and is never allowed to drive on Irish roads again.

Bigalow · 02-05-2003 10:19am

Don't take that as an apology I nothing to apologise for.
I grow increasingly tired of your replies so this will be my last reply on this thread

Bard · 02-05-2003 10:33am

Originally posted by Bigalow
Don't take that as an apology I nothing to apologise for.
I grow increasingly tired of your replies so this will be my last reply on this thread

Nothing to apologise for?

You said that he has anger management problems, called him a "lying c*nt" and said that he hasn't a clue what he is talking about. That sounds like unwarranted and pointless personal insults to me and yeah- something that should be apologised for.

With your attitude, I hope that WAS your last post, - and not just on this thread, but somehow, I doubt it.

uberwolf · 02-05-2003 10:34am

which do you reckon will lead to a greater slowing down, people aware that if there's a speed trap they'll see it and slow down, or not being sure if there going to get caught, maybe slowing down(in general) combined with the notion that having been caught once they'd be more inclined to take it easy?

Pimp Ninja · 02-05-2003 11:32am

Bard, my sentiments exactly, theres no point quoting that because I agree with everything you have said there, and would just end up quoting your entire post. As we all know repitition makes baby jesus cry

Thanks for putting it so eloquently.

[added]
To get back on topic.

Originally posted by uberwolf
which do you reckon will lead to a greater slowing down, people aware that if there's a speed trap they'll see it and slow down, or not being sure if there going to get caught, maybe slowing down(in general) combined with the notion that having been caught once they'd be more inclined to take it easy?

You have 3 good points here that I'd like to discuss.
The awarness of a speed trap ahead leads to a slowing down, in that area. However once the culprits have passed the speed trap they tend to speed back up again, because they know that there wil not be another one, and feel comfortable that they wont be caught. This has been proven by experiments that were carried out in the UK recently enough. There was even a TV program about it.

The second point of not being aware of the speed trap can do 2 things. It can give a general slowing down effect to overall traffic, which I believe it did overall when it was introduced. Or some people just wont give a crap, and will continue to drive this way untill they are caught.

Finally the having been caught, and awarded penalty points on your licence is the biggest deterrant possible. On the news last night there was a section on how many penalty points have been issued so far.
Theres a total of 17,300 people with points on their licences.
1 person had 8 points
8 people had 6 points
X people had 4 points
X people had 2 points

Now I'm not sure about the figures for 4 points and 2 points but you can see the decrease to only 1 person with 8 points from a total of 17,300 being dramatic. This shows that most, if not all, people that have received points have slowed down. This proves by far that it is effective, and that repeat offences, although they do happen, are not commonplace.

Bard · 02-05-2003 3:06pm

Originally posted by Pimp Ninja
Bard, my sentiments exactly, theres no point quoting that because I agree with everything you have said there, and would just end up quoting your entire post. As we all know repitition makes baby jesus cry

No worries, Pimp Ninja

That Baby Jesus fellah must cry... a lot.

Did anyone hear the guy from the Insurance companies Federation talking on Today FM's "Last Word" yesterday? He was being badgered a bit (and probably rightly so), with the presenter relentlessly asking "would ye not drop premiums for those who manage not to pick up any penalty points?" ... somehow he came up with the idea that those who HAD penalty points present a LOWER risk in that they would be trying HARDER than usual not to get any more because of the risk of losing their licenses. Naturally the argument that those who drive safely and carefully enough to NOT get any penalty points must surely be better drivers and thus the lowest risks of all flew right past him...

Silent Bob · 02-05-2003 3:49pm

Originally posted by Pimp Ninja
Now I'm not sure about the figures for 4 points and 2 points but you can see the decrease to only 1 person with 8 points from a total of 17,300 being dramatic. This shows that most, if not all, people that have received points have slowed down. This proves by far that it is effective, and that repeat offences, although they do happen, are not commonplace.

Why is speeding so heavily targeted though? Of all the causes for road traffic accidents excessive speeding ranks fairly low (far lower than manoeuvre error). Surely we would save more lives by targeting the greater causes of RTAs which currently seem to go unnoticed by the traffic divsion of the police?

Victor · 02-05-2003 7:48pm

Originally posted by Bigalow
the Gardaí should be more concerned with catching really criminals rather than making a quick €

Individual Gardaí don't make money from fines. The Garda as a whole doesn't make money from fines.

There is evidence in the UK that the state as a whole don't make money from fines, the typical fine would need to rise to STG£100+ (€150+) for the state to make money on them.

Yes they save moeny from accidents, but they don't make money.

Originally posted by Silent Bob
Why is speeding so heavily targeted though? Of all the causes for road traffic accidents excessive speeding ranks fairly low (far lower than manoeuvre error). Surely we would save more lives by targeting the greater causes of RTAs which currently seem to go unnoticed by the traffic divsion of the police?

Without looking at the figures, while "going to the wrong side of road" is a major cause of accidents, speed is the major killer.

Victor · 02-05-2003 8:49pm

Originally posted by Silent Bob
This is the UK department of transports breakdown of RTA causes. Out of 556 accidents only 19 were found to be due to excessive speed.

That report appears to only cover one section of road with particular characteristics and concentrated on Sleep-Related Vehicle Accidents (SRVAs). :rolleyes:

Silent Bob · 03-05-2003 4:04pm

Originally posted by Victor
That report appears to only cover one section of road with particular characteristics and concentrated on Sleep-Related Vehicle Accidents (SRVAs). :rolleyes:

Granted that the stats were collated during a study of SRVAs but that doesn't mean that they ignored all other causes (to do so while collating stats on SRVAs would be highly unscientific) so the fact that the study concentrates on SRVAs does nothing to diminish the value of the stats on causations of RTAs.

And yes it was a single up/down stretch of road. A dual-carriageway, which, being a nice stretch of tarmac would likely have people regularly travelling over the speed limit (I have no proof of this other than anecdotal evidence).

So I think that those stats DO add value to a discussion on the effects of "speeding". To simply dismiss them is indicative of a mind that is already made up and unwilling to consider other sides of the argument.

Victor · 03-05-2003 5:31pm

Originally posted by Silent Bob
So I think that those stats DO add value to a discussion on the effects of "speeding". To simply dismiss them is indicative of a mind that is already made up and unwilling to consider other sides of the argument.

http://www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadSafety/d706.PDF

Page 5 (page 13 of the PDF file), Excessive speed and or alcohol are strongly related to single vehicle accidents.

Page 6 (page 14 of the PDF file), Driver error accounts for 82% of all accidents.

Table 36, Page 32 (page 40 of the PDF file), while excessive speed accounted for 13.7% of 2 car RTAs, secondary symptoms of speeding (failing to stop at junctions, dangerous overtaking) caused perhaps 50% of of such accidents.

Silent Bob <

You . . . . . . . The point

> .

Silent Bob · 03-05-2003 7:46pm

Originally posted by Victor
Silent Bob <
You . . . . . . . The point
> .

Calm down there mate!

I never said that excessive speed hasn't caused/isn't the cause of accidents (check any of my posts if you so wish).

All I'm saying is that it is very easy to target "speeding" and it seems like that is what the authorities are doing, while there are many other causes of accidents that seem to go unnoticed.

Why isn't there a crack-down on bad-driving? Why do you never see people pulled over for indicating incorrectly at roundabouts? Why isn't anybody ever pulled over for some of the overtaking stunts that they have performed while I drive my scooter?
Speaking of scooters, how many of them have you seen pulled over for weaving in and out of traffic? They'll certainly never get penalty points for speeding!
What about undertaking? What about people who sit in the overtaking lane of a motorway driving at 50mph (people like these encourage others to undertake)?

Is it because a single traffic cop can catch many people driving 5 mph over the speed limit while it would take greater resources to go for bad drivers?

Originally posted by Victor
Page 5 (page 13 of the PDF file), Excessive speed and or alcohol are strongly related to single vehicle accidents.

Which is it? If someone was driving excessively fast while under the influence the cause should be drink-driving (their judgment of distance/speed is impaired, along with common-sense).

Originally posted by Victor
Page 6 (page 14 of the PDF file), Driver error accounts for 82% of all accidents.

Table 36, Page 32 (page 40 of the PDF file), while excessive speed accounted for 13.7% of 2 car RTAs

Reduce excessive speeding related accidents by 50% and you get a 6.85% reduction of accidents.
Reduce driver error related accidents by 50% and you get a 41% reduction of accidents.

As regards the secondary symptoms, failing to stop isn't a symptom of excessive speed, it's a symptom of inattentiveness/unsafe driving.

So no, I don't think I've missed the point at all, but it ain't worth getting into a protracted stats-slinging over

BTW: Despite the impression you might have, I obey the speed-limits

Neil3030 · 03-05-2003 9:36pm

Lads, keep it civil...

sharkman · 04-05-2003 8:01am

Dont know if anyone has posted this link before ,, But here goes anyway :::

http://www.speedtraps.ie.nu/

Hellrazer · 04-05-2003 9:18am

Just adding my 2 cent to the debate here.In my opinion speeding is a scapegoat for the carnage on our roads.
The garda should be targeting drink drivers/stupid drivers.
For example where I live here in Kildare every pub car park is full to bursting at weekends and Id say 80% of those driving leave that pub well over the legal limit and some are not even in any state to control a vehicle.
Why isnt there checkpoints on every road leading away from these pubs.Theres one way to stop this problem.

As for the stupid driving issue.I see someone pointed out that driver error accounys for most accidents.
I see people every day unable to use a roundabout properly,driving too slow,too aggressively,dont know what indicators are for,cant judge road conditions, among other things.
These people are accidents waiting to happen and these should be targeted by the guards.
As for the topic of the thread

Iagree 100% with people telling others the location of speedtraps as most the traps are pure money making exercises for the state.
Yesterday there was a speedtrap on the M4 just after Maynooth.This is a 70mph zone and they`re stopping people for speeding.Absolute joke!!!!!!!I mean its well known that only a tiny minority of accidents take place on motorways.
But the locations should reflect the danger risk for people ie.traps should be in built up areas,near schools etc.and not in a place where the road is dead straight and doesnt pose a huge accident risk.
Richie

Thought I should warn people

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