If its not "Eire" why does it say so on the stamps?

mike65

I was listening to a feature on regional accents
on BBC Radio 4 this morning and I heard one chap say
"Eire" when he meant Republic of Ireland, and as I usually do when I hear that word used by a British
accent, I coughed and went "ahem!" (like he could hear me! ) Then I got thinking well it says "Eire" on every stamp so no wonder there's a certain confusion. Why do the stamps say Eire?

Mike.

ballooba

Aticle 4 of the constitution::

The name of the State is Éire, or in the English language, Ireland.

seamus

No doubt someone will correct me on this, but afaik, Éire was previously used as a derogatory term for Ireland, before the constitution was brought into effect, because it was what the rebels and the Free State wanted the whole country to be called, but the British wouldn't allow it, so a British person referring to the Free State as 'Éire' was supposedly sarcastic and piss-taking.

But this is a sketchy recollection from 2nd year history class so I could be waaay off.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Jake303

Personally I prefere the name Eire! and often use it.

Meh

Originally posted by mike65
Then I got thinking well it says "Eire" on every stamp so no wonder there's a certain confusion. Why do the stamps say Eire?

Because they are in Irish. Saying "Éire" when you're speaking in English is just plain wrong. You don't talk about your holidays in "España" or "Kyπρω" or your car from "Deutschland", do you?.

ballooba

wasn't saying that I agree with it... Just thats what it says in the constitution.

I think we were at the brits for years before independence to call it Éire and that Ireland wasn't the proper name.

Then when we started calling it Ireland they started calling it Éire just to take a dig.

Typedef

Originally posted by Meh
"Éire" when you're speaking in English is just plain wrong.

Actually I'd completely disagree.

For an English person to know 'enough' about the place to refer to Ireland as Éire I think demonstrates a willingness to recognise Ireland as a seperate entity, with a distinct language to match.

Sometimes you get really rabid pro-Unionists refereing to the 26 counties as the Free State, so I think an English person calling Ireland Éire as opposed to the Republic or the Free State is akin to an Irish person making the effort to correctly denote Westminster ruled territories as the UK, instead of saying 'England' (incorrect) or (Britain) also incorrect.

Call it an effort to be PC and sensitive to Irish identity somewhat, at least that's how I'd see such use of the word.

Lennoxschips

...because Éire is short enough to fit on the stamps!!

sceptre

The last Constitution Working Group highlighted this problem. They suggested changing the English text to "the name of the State is Ireland" and the Irish text to "Eire is aimn den Stat"* When using the English language, you call it "Ireland". When using the Irish language you call it "Eire".

Some chap on the BBC using the word "Eire" to refer to the country makes as much sense as my using the word "Nippon" to refer to Japan or "Kalallit Nunaat" to refer to Greenland. Actually it makes less sense as our constitution gives specific information on what to call the country when speaking English.

Britons using "Eire" to refer to the country has far more to do with an semi-official decision on the part of the UK government to refer to the State as such to distinguish it from Northern Ireland and a little bit of a misunderstanding due to a poorly drafted article than anything else. One letter to deValera as President of Ireland in the mid-sixties appointing an ambassador to the state of Eire was returned to Canberra (via London obviously - ambassador appointed by the queen) on the grounds that the state of Eire didn't exist unless the letter was in Irish. This is the precedent that any government decision might well follow. You might regard it as silly but they didn't get the name of the country right.

There was a funny discussion just before the opening ceremony of the 1948 Olympics about the name of our fair corrupt state. The British Olympic COmmittee had ordered a sign for Ireland that read "Eire" as the name of the country in English. Obviously the name of the country isn't Eire in English (whether you like using the name or not it clearly isn't Eire in English). It's probably detailed on the web somewhere - have a look as it's too long for me to type.

So why do the stamps say "Eire"? Well obviously Irish is the first official language of the State and we'll all be speaking nothing else when that language revival comes along. Why should we name our country on our stamps using the second official language? Even the Swiss don't bother (though they'd certainly run our of room). Could have adopted the British system and just not bothered.



*grammar probably incorrect but you get my drift.

TomF

My "Car Mechanics" magazine from England arrives safely here in Cork every month, and it is addessed to "Eire".

On another tack, my rebel-girl wife never uses "Northern Ireland" when she writes to relatives in Belfast, Derry or Crossmaglen: she always uses "Co. Antrim", "Co. Down", Co. Derry or "Co. Armagh" (with the Northern Ireland postal code, of course.)

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by Typedef


Sometimes you get really rabid pro-Unionists refereing to the 26 counties as the Free State,

I think you'll find that's a term used more often by Republicans. Or Nationalists. The thinking being that the real republic should comprise the entire country and so that term may not be used by the interim puppet state ruled from Dublin. So the Free State became the term used to differentiate the '26 counties' as an entity from the 'occupied six counties'

Unionists are only too happy to refer to the Republic as a separate alien entity whose existence they recognise as long as its claim over their territory is refuted.

As the man said: 'Phrases make history here'

regi

Being an english chap, and having lived in England for quite a few years, I can tell you that a lot of people use the words 'Ireland' and 'Eire' interchangably and I don't believe I've ever heard it used in a derogatory fashion.

Among a lot of english people, there is a funny sort of guilt about Ireland (as well as a lot of the rest of the world ), and I think the term is more used out of a sense of that guilt than any 'sarcastic and piss-taking' sense. I think you might be being a little harsh on them

Lennoxschips

If it was up to me, I'd change the consitution to make Éire the name used in both the English and Irish language. It's the true name of the country after all!

Victor

Looking at some stamps (the bird series) in my wallet it says "ÉIRE, 41c, Rí rua, Chaffinch, Fringella coelebs". So the Stamp is in Irish. And Romans won't start addressing post as Dublinia, Hibernia or similar will they?

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
I think you'll find that's a term used more often by Republicans. Or Nationalists.

Actually it's very much a very republican (of the FF variety) usage, often used with "blue shirt" and similar terms to offend FG members.

sanvean

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
The thinking being that the real republic should comprise the entire country and so that term may not be used by the interim puppet state ruled from Dublin.

but where would they have the republic ruled from when (as gerry adams said) it inevitably becomes united? surely it will still be in dublin, and (depressingly) will still have a fianna fail majority ... sigh.

Shinji

I've really never understood the scowls it gets when you call Ireland "Eire". I just put it down to a particularly misplaced bit of armchair republican bitterness.

If someone asked me where I was last week and I said "Yeah I had to go over to deutschland on a business trip" it might sound a little odd, but I somehow doubt some passing stocky chap in a pair of lederhosen would start giving me dirty looks for it...

Victor

Originally posted by Shinji
I've really never understood the scowls it gets when you call Ireland "Eire". I just put it down to a particularly misplaced bit of armchair republican bitterness.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it often appears to be used to make the point that the (usually) English person, doesn't want to say "Ireland".

From Ireland, would you address a letter:

H. Lepsius,
Berliner Strasse 23,
Cologne,
5XXXX,
Germany. [Right, but awkward for DeutschePost]

or

H. Lepsius,
Berliner Strasse 23,
Köln,
5XXXX,
Deutschland. [Right, but awkward for An Post]

or

H. Lepsius,
Berliner Strasse 23,
Cologne,
5XXXX,
Deutschland. [Wrong, awkward for An Post and DeutschePost]

or

H. Lepsius,
Berliner Strasse 23,
Köln,
5XXXX,
Germany.

mike65

Jesus Victor, I'd just e-mail him! :P

Mike.

Victor

Of course, official Ireland tends to recognise "Great Britain", not the UK. http://www.gov.ie/iveagh/images/buttons/navlist6_2b.gif

http://www.gov.ie/iveagh/

Elmo

Eire refers to the 32 counties of the Island of Ireland and not just the 26.

therefore The BBC 4 announcer was wrong to refer to The Republic of Ireland as Eire.

Its not like they go around saying Northern Eire now is it, which of course would be wrong as it is Tusceart Na Eireann (litir?).

And yes it is a dig at the Republic.

I have always wondered why each individual lanuage puts different names on the same country. Why not use the orginal lanuage?

Typedef

Hold your horses gaffer.

How many English people (a) know enough or (b) know enough to find out that Éire is a dig at the Republic even if one accepts the term as such (which I don't)? I'd say most English when they use the term Éire are trying to be sensitive to the Irish national desire for recognition as a seperate entity with a seperate language and have predicated in their brains that it would be a show of understanding to use the term Éire instead of saying Ireland (ambigious) or the Republic (not ambiguous enough).

Elmo

Hold your horses gaffer.

How many English people (a) know enough or (b) know enough to find out that Éire is a dig at the Republic even if one accepts the term as such (which I don't)? I'd say most English when they use the term Éire are trying to be sensitive to the Irish national desire for recognition as a seperate entity with a seperate language and have predicated in their brains that it would be a show of understanding to use the term Éire instead of saying Ireland (ambigious) or the Republic (not ambiguous enough).

Oh thats funny LOL Oh my god, English who give a ****.

Jake303

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
If it was up to me, I'd change the consitution to make Éire the name used in both the English and Irish language. It's the true name of the country after all!

I second that motion!
Much prefere Eire, as I stated earlier.

I read an article some time back, think it was in one of those horrible tabloids stating that Irish people should now call the country Ireland and that we should have outgrown the term "Eire" by now!

Hobart

Originally posted by Typedef
I'd say most English when they use the term Éire are trying to be sensitive to the Irish national desire for recognition as a seperate entity with a seperate language and have predicated in their brains that it would be a show of understanding to use the term Éire instead of saying Ireland (ambigious) or the Republic (not ambiguous enough).

I would say that you are naive in that opinion and I would contend that when most British ppl would refer to the Republic of Ireland as Éire out of a sense of not having a clue as opposed to some sort of recognition. It is not an English word. For instance I have yet to hear an English, Scotish, Welsh or Irish man refer to France as Francais, Russia as it's cyrillac derevation or China as it's Mandarin derevation in serious conversation. Éire is a Gaelic word. Having said that I have no objection or nationalistic feelings towards what any person from the Commonwealth of Great Briton and Northern Ireland prefers to call my Country. As long as they are respectful of it.

Jake303

Originally posted by Typedef


Sometimes you get really rabid pro-Unionists refereing to the 26 counties as the Free State, so I think an English person calling Ireland Éire as opposed to the Republic or the Free State is akin to an Irish person making the effort to correctly denote Westminster ruled territories as the UK, instead of saying 'England' (incorrect) or (Britain) also incorrect.

I point blank refuse to call Britain the UK as I dont see anything united about.
I take the meaning of united in this context to mean that all the people are willing members of this union of the "United Kingdom" of which they of course are not!

Therefor I cant really complain if British people use different terms for Eire, ooops sorry.....Rep of Ireland, nope sorry right first time its Eire?

Elmo

I point blank refuse to call Britain the UK as I dont see anything united about.

The UK = Britain and Northern Ireland.

When you refer to Britain do you refer to Northern Ireland as well because if you do your wrong as Britain is not Northern Ireland.

I refuse to call Britain, Great Britain. As I don't think any country is all that great especial a country that puts the word great in front of its own country.

sceptre

Originally posted by Elmo
I refuse to call Britain, Great Britain. As I don't think any country is all that great especial a country that puts the word great in front of its own country.

Refers to size, not a sexy experience. It's a historical thing. Google for it.

Originally posted by Jake303I point blank refuse to call Britain the UK as I dont see anything united about.
I take the meaning of united in this context to mean that all the people are willing members of this union of the "United Kingdom" of which they of course are not!

It's been the official name of the country since 1707 (with "and Ireland" added in 1801 & changed a bit in 1922). If you're not willing to call a country by it's rightful legal name you're not entitled to the indignant moral ground when they do likewise (which you point out yourself). The word "united" referred to the two kingdoms being united under one monarch and parliament & wasn't meant to imply that absolutely everyone was happy about it. What do you call the country between Mexico and Canada? (just "America" would be incorrect & there are enough wannabe secessionists to bar you from using the word "united" there too)

regi

Originally posted by Elmo
Oh thats funny LOL Oh my god, English who give a ****.

Elmo, I absolutely agree with Typedef, and I also feel that you might be best served by actually meeting/talking to some english people. Your ignorance hurts me

Victor

BTW I would also consider Republic of Ireland a no-no, the name is Ireland.

seamus

I agree with Tyedef. Very few British would know enough about Irish history to point out little nuances like that. Very few Irish people would know it either. As far as most of the Irish population are concerned, Éire is the name of the country in Irish.

The only two ways I've seen digs taken by rabid Uniionists is by calling the Republic 'The Free State', or by referring to the entire area as 'The British Isles'. The latter really annoys me.....

regi

Originally posted by seamus
The only two ways I've seen digs taken by rabid Uniionists is by calling the Republic 'The Free State', or by referring to the entire area as 'The British Isles'. The latter really annoys me..... [/B]

Free state is definately an offensive term, but I've often heard use of the phase 'The British Isles' in a way that wasn't intended to cause offence, but purely as a geographic term to describe 'The archipelago off the west coast of continental Europe'. It can cause offence tho, so I generally use the phrase with caution over here

Victor

Originally posted by Regi
but I've often heard use of the phase 'The British Isles' in a way that wasn't intended to cause offence, but purely as a geographic term to describe 'The archipelago off the west coast of continental Europe'. It can cause offence tho, so I generally use the phrase with caution over here

The republican version is "The Celtic Isles"

Trebor

i believe that it should be Eire as it is a step in the right direction towards the resuurection of the irish lanuage as the more it is used in daly life the sooner it will become the more used lanuage.

ballooba

Originally posted by Hobart
For instance I have yet to hear an English, Scotish, Welsh or Irish man refer to France as Francais

Thats because the french for France is France. .

bonkey

Originally posted by ballooba
Thats because the french for France is France. .

Funnily enough, I do hear a lot of people talk about Italia and Espagna.

Personally, I think it should be "Ireland" when referring to it in the English language.

But maybe thats cause I get annoyed at people who I know from an Irish-speaking background who still insist on calling me "Seán" even when we speak in English.

As for what foreigners call us....."Southern Ireland" is the one that annoys me. The rest I can understand and/or ignore...mostly.

jc

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
Funnily enough, I do hear a lot of people talk about Italia and Espagna.

Do you mean in Switzerland or in Ireland? I would say the "Giro d'Italia", not the "Tour of Italy", but wouln't use "Italia" in normal speech.

Originally posted by bonkey
But maybe thats cause I get annoyed at people who I know from an Irish-speaking background who still insist on calling me "Seán" even when we speak in English.

I take it you are "John" (as in JC) I think the way some teachers "Gaelicise" English names is absurd and offensive, your name is your name.

Originally posted by bonkey
As for what foreigners call us....."Southern Ireland" is the one that annoys me. The rest I can understand and/or ignore...mostly.

Call centre worker: "Do you live in Northern Ireland or Southern Ireland?"
Me: "No, Eastern Ireland."

Kappar

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
If it was up to me, I'd change the consitution to make Éire the name used in both the English and Irish language. It's the true name of the country after all!

In the first draft of the constitution this was the case then when being debated in the Dáil however a Mr. Desmond Fitzgerlad argued something about there being no such word in English and how the people of Éire become 'muinntear na hÉireann' in Irish because nouns decline in Irish so Éire becomes Éireann and stays Éire in english this was craxy he said.

There was also arguing about the term leaving out the six counties out by using the term so dev changed the english in someplaces changing 'The people of Éire' to 'the people' and 'the president shall not leave Éire...' to the president shall not leave the state...'

Also another interesting thing to note is this when dev went to visit lloyd george in Londen

Records note an exchange between Lloyd George and de Valera where de Valera handed George a document in Irish then in English the document was headed with the words “Saorstat Eireann” George asked “what does Saorstat mean?” to which de Valera replied “Free State” “Yes, but in Irish does it mean Republic” George asked de Valera while de Valera discussed this with his colleague George remarked that “the Celts were never republicans so would have no native word”.

TomF

In 1974 I went over to Bristol, England for a job interview and the biggie who I spoke with used "Eire" in speaking of Ireland. I remember that I mentally narrowed my eyes at this (not the same as narrowing my mind at this) because I wasn't too sure what he was implying. I didn't get the job, so it didn't turn-out to be a big problem. One of his underlings was a very nasty type, and I was told later that he was absolutely convinced of the superiority of the English over all other peoples of the world, so it is just as well I didn't get the job.

I have also had people in England taking credit card orders from me over the telephone ask "Is that northern Ireland or southern Ireland", and I always say "It's the Republic" although when I think it over later, it is really not such a bad thing to say "southern or northern?" when speaking of Ireland because that implies that it is a natural whole, not a divided island.

On the issue of putting Eire on the stamps, maybe the united Ireland will see an arrangement like Canada's currency which is in French and English. I'm not sure about the stamps. Maybe they just carry the name Canada because there is no need for "Governor-General/Gouveneur-general" under signatures, etc. as there is for the currency.

Finally, there is or was a monthly journal put out by the Irish American Cultural Institute, founded by a fine man named Eoin McKiernan, and the name of the journal was Eire-Ireland. That seems to work.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

bonkey

Originally posted by TomF
it is really not such a bad thing to say "southern or northern?" when speaking of Ireland because that implies that it is a natural whole, not a divided island

Except that it is a divided island, and nations are not typically referred to by their geographical location.

jc

Jake303

Originally posted by Elmo
The UK = Britain and Northern Ireland.

When you refer to Britain do you refer to Northern Ireland as well because if you do your wrong as Britain is not Northern Ireland.

I refuse to call Britain, Great Britain. As I don't think any country is all that great especial a country that puts the word great in front of its own country.

When I refer to NI usually refer to it as the six counties or the occupied six counties.
I refer to Britain as Britain meaning Scotland, England and Wales

mike65

Originally posted by Jake303
When I refer to NI usually refer to it as the six counties or the occupied six counties.

Ho hum, I thought we were all supposed to be getting beyond that sort of language round here.

Mike.

Jake303

Originally posted by mike65
Ho hum, I thought we were all supposed to be getting beyond that sort of language round here.

Mike.

I accept fully that the people of Eire voted for the good friday aggrement and if that be the will of the people then fair enough.
But dont kid yourself for a minute that everybody in Eire suddenly thinks that NI is a legitimate state (?) entity (?) or whatever you wanna call it.

Elmo

Elmo, I absolutely agree with Typedef, and I also feel that you might be best served by actually meeting/talking to some english people. Your ignorance hurts me

I appologise for hurting you. And prehaps I mean the government and policital rulers of England and not the people that they serve.
I have often read the british press and it seems Ignorant to me when it comes to Ireland, at times.(I won't get an appology for that) I would hope the press doesn't represent a people anyway.

In realation to the word republic I think it comes from french.

Also Great Britian because of is size, is just as big headed. Especially as its only a small Island of the coast of Really Big France and Huge Germany.

The British Isle may be factual but only because the british ruled over it for 800 years. The Celtic Isles is also factual as three of the countries are celtic, as are parts of England.

bonkey

Originally posted by Jake303
But dont kid yourself for a minute that everybody in Eire suddenly thinks that NI is a legitimate state (?) entity (?) or whatever you wanna call it.

I'm curious as to what you call the USA.

Is it "those occpupied native american lands", "the native american lands", or do you reserve this standard of legitimisation just for Ireland?

NI is a legitimate state, recognised not only by both the RoI and British governments, but by the EU, the UN, and every other relevant international body.

The only way that NI is not a legitimate state is if you use the term "legitimate" not to mean "in accordance with law" but rather "what I want".

jc

pickarooney

Originally posted by TomF


On the issue of putting Eire on the stamps, maybe the united Ireland will see an arrangement like Canada's currency which is in French and English. I'm not sure about the stamps. Maybe they just carry the name Canada because there is no need for "Governor-General/Gouveneur-general" under signatures, etc. as there is for the currency.

Canada being Canada in French, there's not much room for confusion.

For what it's worth, the Republic of Ireland is often referred to as Eire in French, and is usually used on scoreboards at (association) football matches.

And that Great Britain thing is a translation of Grande Bretagne, i.e. Big Britain/Brittany, to distinguish it from Brittany/Bretagne in France.

Consider the Irish name for Wales, an Bhreatain Bheag - little Britain. Do Welsh people get offended by this?

Victor

Originally posted by Elmo
In realation to the word republic I think it comes from french.

I think it is actually Latin http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=republic

Originally posted by Elmo
Also Great Britian because of is size, is just as big headed. Especially as its only a small Island of the coast of Really Big France and Huge Germany.

Isn't France much bigger than Germany

Originally posted by pickarooney
And that Great Britain thing is a translation of Grande Bretagne, i.e. Big Britain/Brittany, to distinguish it from Brittany/Bretagne in France. Consider the Irish name for Wales, an Bhreatain Bheag - little Britain. Do Welsh people get offended by this?

The present usage of Great Britain stems from the Act of Union 1707(?), when Scotland joined Britain. Prior to that Britain was used to refer to England and Wales. Teh previous English-Welsh agreement that formed that union included a concession to Wales that the name "Britain" (descended from the Welsh, originally from the Latin "Brittania") would apply to the Kindom.

Jake303

Originally posted by bonkey
I'm curious as to what you call the USA.

Is it "those occpupied native american lands", "the native american lands", or do you reserve this standard of legitimisation just for Ireland?

NI is a legitimate state, recognised not only by both the RoI and British governments, but by the EU, the UN, and every other relevant international body.

The only way that NI is not a legitimate state is if you use the term "legitimate" not to mean "in accordance with law" but rather "what I want".

jc

Havnt really given the US much thought up untill now to be honest.

To be blunt with ye I really dont give a toss what the UN, EU, or ROI for that matter recognise.

daveirl

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bonkey

Originally posted by Jake303
To be blunt with ye I really dont give a toss what the UN, EU, or ROI for that matter recognise.

Thats alright, because they and most of the rest of the world dont really give a toss what you recognise either.

They've got more weight behind their opinion too, so I'd be inclined to believe that their opinions will carry the day.

jc