Reclaim the Streets

honkdub

Looking for discussion on rts
its happening this yr at an unspecified street in dublin on may 5th
the bank holiday monday

RTS originated from environmental campaigns against motor-way building in England but has expanded to cover lots of urban life issues and been copied now all over the world.
background info http://rts.gn.apc.org/evol.htm
Its about cars strangling out cities its about public spaces its about the freedom to gather on our own streets, its about improving urban life.


Basically a group of people hold a party on the street blocking it of cars and creating a free area for an evening, free from cars free from party politics, branding, ownership, not anti-everything just free party.

It will be one year from the happenings on dame Str last year. RTS
sets out to have a peaceful party it is clear from recent actions that the police are the ones who cause the trouble and the injuries.

We looking for people to do entertainment or jsut join us for the party check out the public mailing list at
rts-dublin@yahoogroups.com

mike65

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62960&highlight=reclaim+streets

Ahhhh, those were the days and days and days of argument!

Mike.

DadaKopf

Were you at the meeting on the 4th? Are there any minutes of the meeting or anything like that? When's the next meeting?

Oh, and how does one subscribe to the yahoogroup?

I'm looking forward to this year's RTS but also to the discussion at the meetings.

Unfortunately, I won't be around so I hope it all goes well and it's bigger and more fun than last year.

cormac_byrne

The Yahoo Group indicates that the RTS will meet 2pm, the GPO, Monday 5th May.

There's also a Critical Mass meetup for cyclists 1:30pm, Garden of Rememberance, Monday 5th May.

DeVore

are they going to burn a car (even if it is their own) or exactly what are we going to end up "supporting".

I like the idea and support the motive but I'm cautious of the methods and what you end up in terms of "bathwater" when all you want to support is "baby".

DeV.

cormac_byrne

I think that the car with the orange smoke was acknowledged to be a mistake. (wasn't there myself) There wasn't anything like that at the September "Car Free Day" party. Also the fact that the September party disbanded at a predetermined time meant that there weren't any issues with isolated bunches of stragglers at the end. It was simply a joyful party, Music, Dancing, Street theatre, Juggling, Face Painting, Free Food etc...

Hopefully that's the sort of party we'll see on the 5th May.

DadaKopf

I also hope the SWP get the idea and refrain from selling merchandise at the next one, too. I told them off for it and they blanked me like arrogant pricks.

ReefBreak

The reality is that the RTS people are considered by the VAST majority to be nothing more than posh, scruffy, crusty students with too much time on their hands. Until you achieve more support among the mainstream populace, you'll ahieve nothing.

However, there's zero chance of this mainstream support appearing because most people have better things to do, such as staying employed, and earning some Euros. Ideas such as abandoning consumerism and embracing a car-free lifestyle simply don't wash.

Of course we'd all like to see the traffic on Dame St/wherever reduced - but anyone that thinks it can be achieved by "Music, Dancing, Street theatre, Juggling, Face Painting, Free Food" is just a bit deluded. More and better public transport is what's needed, and that takes a lot more effort (and a different thread).

Although, I'd guess if the RTS thing became mainstream, most of the them would look elsewhere to find an outlet for a bit o' fight da power rebelliousness...

Sparks

Of course we'd all like to see the traffic on Dame St/wherever reduced - but anyone that thinks it can be achieved by "Music, Dancing, Street theatre, Juggling, Face Painting, Free Food" is just a bit deluded.

And you would suggest what instead? Writing letters to politicians that know their jobs are safe for the next five years and then in all probability safe again anyway for just a few months short-term, high-profile charitable works?
The problem with working within the system is that our system is corrupt and rules tend to get forgotten when they get akward for those with influence. So, shy of terrorism, this is about as good as they can get.

mazzyianne

We really need people to help out with Food not Bombs for RTS. If anyone can help at all please email us at fnbdublin@yahoo.com or better still join our mailing list - send an email to
foodnotbombs@thisbetterworld.org

thanks

Boston

<snip ignorant abusive hate>

Sorry Boston, that was heat, not light.

DeV.

ps: note to self. Politics mods are better at this then you are.

Redshift

Who exactly are they supposed to be re-claiming the streets from? Other Irish people going about their lawful business perhaps. I have the upmost respect for your opinions but there are plently of places to go where there are no cars where you can have a nice evening there are big car free parks in the city centre provided for your enjoyment but this is a city and there are enough problems and hassle for people as it is.

Red

bonkey

Boston, thats completely out of order, and you know the rules better than that.

One week ban.

jc

swiss

Originally posted by Boston:

I seriously hope you lot get your head kicked in again. thats not a flame, that just my pure disguse at you scumbags taking over dublin streets, getting pissed and getting violent and not caring about the ordinary people of dublin who have to get from a to b. self centred bastards.

"and why do you think you can smash up a car in the middle of the street and not get arrested" cause where ****ing the system man, anyway it was our car" "did the gardi know that"

sorry but there it is, you bunch of pink communist twats.

Another outburst like this, and I can make it so that you don't see these "pink communist twats" post's anymore.

The RTS people have the right to express their point of view that a car free environment would be more beneficial in environmental and social terms. While I am dubious about the merits of blocking transportation for others as a form of protest, I can understand their motives, and while I do not subscribe to them, at least I can refrain from posting hate-filled invective like what you're posting here.

If you have an opinion, try to put it in civil terms (if possible) or do not post at all.

[edit] Just read bonkey's post. Agreed, it was completely out of line, and I have no problem with his decision. Subject to the ability of posting in a civil manner, you can post here again in a week [/edit]

Cork

The RTS people have the right to express their point of view that a car free environment would be more beneficial in environmental and social terms. While I am dubious about the merits of blocking transportation for others as a form of protest, I can understand their motives, and while I do not subscribe to them, at least I can refrain from posting hate-filled invective like what you're posting here.


They have a right to their openions & the right to protest - but I think blocking transportation for others as a form of protest is dangerous.

Transport is used for emergencies. Transport is used to get around the city. Blocking transportation as a form of protest achieves little.

Why not encourage the use of public transport. The car is pretty common in 2003 just as the horse was 100 years ago. The streets have always been used to transport goods and people - But I surpose today cars are not longer seen as luxerys but as neccessary to get around the city.

As a non motorist - In my openion, blocking transportation just alienates those who need to travel. It does nothing to highlight the need for more public transport.

DadaKopf

Emergency vehicles already have a tough time getting to emergencies as it is.

The problem isn't that a few thousand people hold an event that challenges car/consumer culture for a few hours one day a year. The problem is that not enough people are prepared to use alternative transport. The problem is that Dublin has been seriously underinvested in in terms of transport, urban social planning and economic and housing development planning. The result is a completely unsustainable and uhealthy city.

While we're waiting for transport and development initiatives to come on stream (and these are always dogged by political manipulations), we should not only start demanding our politicians to get the job done right but we should start taking the situation into our own hands and change the way we use cities.

For those who go down the economic end of things as regards the ideals of RTS, I'll point out something. Ireland has become a victim of its own success. Chronic congestion in Dublin that has risen in direct correlation with economic growth since 1985 (rated only slightly better than Calcutta) is already having an adverse effect on businesses due to rediculous delivery times and accessibility. Car culture is even conspiring against economic sustainability. This has nothing to do with a few people blocking the roads for one day a year - that doesn't even register on the radar - it's because of underinvestment in public transport and a public unwillingness to use what's there or to responsibly find alternative solutions.

Getting out of our cars for everything other than essential journeys would be a much better long term solution to traffic congestion rather than concerns over a few thousand people making a political point once a year. I personally find this objection to RTS unfounded.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sparks

daveirl,
Please stop it with the sarcasm, it's damn hard to get tea out of a keyboard!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sparks

Sorry dave, can't agree with that. The idea with the Gardai is that they uphold the law, not break it at a whim. Especially not in the way that they did. And it was made doubly worse by the "code of silence" we saw in the investigation.

Paralleling another thread :rolleyes:,
RTS dodgy to bad,
Gardai behaviour bad.

honkdub

since initiating the thread i've read through 5 pages of dicussion pre september

two things came up,
1. public transport and people suggstions

2. the reason for rts being very, very unclear to people

(3. get a job sh***te)

2. a typical quote from that thread..."The problem I have with RTS is that their is no real definate goal or solution that they are putting forward."

as opposed to critical mass, rts covers a lot of issues and therfore is harder to define or to categorise, basically its an example of what all the urban, communities lobbying efforts could achieve by having a car-free bike friendly brand commercial free zone for an afternoon wher people can gather freely.

it is a place for all people concerned with economic and enviromental issues to gather for a day not to be anti this or that but to have a celebration of what could be...

the issues of bus lanes is a good un, i wouldn't want to block any buses but if i thought we let buses through and cheeky car drivers wouldn't try and nip round us aswell then i'd be happy

rts will clean its own litter up as most groups holding free parties do and i myself cleaned up after antiwar demos outside the dail

thats allf for now.... ta

being more clear on what rts is defo something to be looked at but i think already theres a move to provide more information on the day , rts did get overshadowed by other things so no wonder nobody knew what _RTS_ was about...








i still want to know how to add a poll to my first post?

Sand

Footpaths are for people to walk on.

Streets are for motor vehicles to drive on - cyclists too but they seem confused as to what rules they follow - traffic lights and stuff like that.

Dont get the two mixed up or youll end up like a lot of pedestrians involved in traffic accidents.

Hold your hippyfest in places like Stephens Green, or the Phoenix Park - areas set aside for such stuff without inconveniencing the rest of the people living, working and travelling in the city.

Block the streets with your crap, well meaning as it might be and as effective as it might sound when youre getting drunk at your local, and then act like you were the victims when youre cleared off them. And while you have a right to exspress your opinions not many (actually, is anyone? ) are going to care if the Gardai have to beat you off the streets again - only people reclaiming the streets for everyone to use last year were the Gardai, and a good thing too.

Cabaal

Originally posted by Sand
Footpaths are for people to walk on.

Streets are for motor vehicles to drive on - cyclists too but they seem confused as to what rules they follow - traffic lights and stuff like that.

Not to mention those cars that drive on the footpath and don't know how to use roundabouts.

Actually that can't be true, cars never break the rules....

But lets not turn this thread into that debate

kitty-kat

Hi, I’ve just joined the list. I’ll apologise in advance because I know this will be long, so many good questions being posed here.
Firstly though, I’d appreciate it if people could be a bit more accurate when making claims about events. For example stating that participants at the May 6th street party provoked the police reaction is simply not true. There have been no allegations even on the part of Gardaí, that there was violence within, on the periphery or even the general viscinity of the “protestors”. Not a single Garda sustained even the most minor of injuries. If this is to be an intelligent debate where all parties genuinely wish to tackle this issue, then I think all parties really ought to stick to the facts. A few eyes were opened outside the Dáil on Wednesday 2nd April of this year. People of many different ages and backgrounds were shocked and horrified to see that Gards actually are violent towards peaceful protestors sometimes! I wish I were surprised, they are there to KEEP THE PEACE, not attempt to invoke riots (however much they’d like to try out their new kit), unfortunately, there is a huge naïve faith that our boys ‘ud never do a thing like that.

QUOTE: If you have a problem with Government demostrate outside the Dail, if you have a problem with a Corporate entity, demostrate outside their headquarters but to effect the ordinary citizen from going about their own business is selfish, stupid and counter productive.

Great care and consideration was given to the location of the street party for the previous 2 parties; Burgh quay has the least amount of bus traffic out of all the quays and therefore disrupted Dublin Bus as little as possible. Furthermore, unlike in many other major cities, rts events have been held on Bank holidays or Sundays, because people are sensitive to the risk of alienating people.
You see, the distinction here is RTS is not supposed to be a demonstration for politicians or corporations to react to. The whole point is that ordinary citizens can realise (i.e. make real) a car free area in the city centre for a few hours and hopefully apply the same thinking to their respective district/estate/street. It’s amazing how conscious you can become of just how socially destructive car culture really is – the local greengrocer and I had to yell to each other ion his shop (!) on Saturday because the sheer volume of traffic through our “village” is deafening. How can a sense of community flourish in streets that are filthy, noisy and dangerous?

The point about blocking transportation for others not being a favourable form of protest baffles me… of the hundreds of cars I pass in the morning & evening the vast majority have a ratio of 1 car-1 person, so 50 cars for 50 people? Or one bus for 60 people. C’mon! Who’s blocking who? EVERY DAY. Pedestrians are not entitled to ONE DAY where they are, at the very least, as important as a chunk of metal and glass? Emergency vehicles would have a far easier time getting where they need to be in a car free city, human beings have very good reaction skills to sirens – even crusties.

Reclaim the Streets street parties are, as far as I’m concerned, also a call to residents of Dublin to stop passing the buck. So many car drivers are fed up with the traffic…they ARE the congestion!!! So car pool, ride a bike, walk. Until we have a decent transport system (you can see the polly’s are very focussed on transport – just look at what they’re prepared to spend on their jet!) there is really no point whining about these troublesome, what is it, “posh, crusty types”(???) being an inconvenience when as far as most people are concerned the problem is not theirs to assist in solving. I think the general populace needs to accept you’re either part of the solution or part of the problem - cutting car use is part of the solution. (I’d encourage all you yuppie gym-going types to stop growing a fat arse in the car and paying for the gym, but that’s just rude and I hate stereotypes.) It’s not anti-cardriver, I recognise that the unfortunate reality for commuters from many parts of the Dublin hinterland have no viable alternative. Many do. While the bus is a great alternative to car travel, cycling or walking is; cleaner, quieter, far better for personal and public health and so much more practical!!

QUOTE: I am paying thru the nose in Tax, Tax on Fuel, NCT & then Insurance to actually use my car.

I hear a lot of complaints from car drivers that they pay through the nose for the “right” to drive their car as much as they like. Car owners are bled dry with road tax, tax on fuel, NCT and then insurance to drive their cars, along with actually purchasing their cars. I’m not sure many car owners/drivers give much consideration to the cost on society that this means of transport incurs. Car ownership is subsidised by the general populace left right and centre. Car use is heavily subsidised through tax revenue spent in hospitals to treat car crash victims, surgery, rehabilitation & physio etc., widespread respiratory illness and obesity (to name but a few). Tax payers money is disproportionately spent on roads rather than public transport (a measly 28% of the transport budget last year went on public transport) with travel time actually increasing rather than decreasing. Interestingly, spending on public transport is most frequently referred to as “subsidies” whereas road building is known as an “investment”. Curious use of language.
Our lush Irish countryside, is being paved to make way for more cars, though it is well understood internationally that traffic will always increase to capacity. Hedgerows, for example, which are a vastly underestimated ecosystem, are being destroyed at a rate 1,000km per year here in Ireland. Should we end up like Britain? And for godsake I better not say anything about wars waged in oil-rich countries to keep up with this ever-growing oil diet.

QUOTE: Tell me; will RTS be supplying people to clean up any litter caused by the day after the fact?

At any street party I’ve attended people cleaned the place entirely of their on volition (including me), unlike the kind of thing you’ll see after the masses have left Landsdowne road or Croke Park, to be fair. That’s just one of the great knock-on effects, people tend to really cherish their space a lot more.

QUOTE: in this case I believe personal politics or party affiliations are largely irrelevant because RTS appears to me to be a cultural and artistic event first and a political one second.

I would agree to a certain extent with this, though I am reticent to compartmentalise too much. There will never be a political shift away from Car-centric living until it is culturally unacceptable. RTS is also about challenging the culture of leaving the problem for some “expert” or political party to sort out, and implementing changes, however small in your own community.

People need to be asking questions like; why is everything so car-centric? Performing daily tasks in your own neighbourhood is becoming more and more difficult, small shops closing, the birth and boom of these U.S.-style enormous shopping malls such as Liffey Valley & Blanchardstown. People become so fed up with the noise and filth and traffic they do their shopping and going out all under one roof, in space that is designed on human scale, lovely clean, quiet pedestrianised areas… too bad everybody has to drive to get there!!! Not so long ago Dublin was made up of many villages where immediate needs could be satisfied within the community. Why are so many god awful developments being blanketed across Ireland with no provision made for the occupants. They must all drive!!!

MDR

A few eyes were opened outside the Dáil on Wednesday 2nd April of this year.

Er, Jim Higgins causing a ruckass in the media because he was removed from the kildare street. Public support for mass demo's against war in iraq was waining, Jim wanted to get it front and centre in the media again, so he sat in the middle of kildare street and refused to move, and then was forceably removed.

Apart from aload of people being forceably removed I can't remember any actual claims of Garda brutality. Ok can I nip this whole id thing in the bud as well, the stupid riot suits aren't equiped with them yet apartentily.

Or even better in Shannon, where people where told to do their best to get themselves arrested. Ignoring the spin from indymedia, Sinn Fein, SWP and others, I don't think the Garda have been out of line (not in a big way anyway) since RTS last year, alot of media hype and not much substance IMHO.

Not a single Garda sustained even the most minor of injuries

Do you have any press evidence to back this up ? or is this good old hearsay, because the hearsay I heard was that the senior member of the garda had a few stitches in the side of his head

Great care and consideration was given to the location of the street party for the previous 2 parties; Burgh quay has the least amount of bus traffic out of all the quays and therefore disrupted Dublin Bus as little as possible. Furthermore, unlike in many other major cities, rts events have been held on Bank holidays or Sundays, because people are sensitive to the risk of alienating people.

Well thats not entirely true, during normal protests, which Dublin sees every day, from Fathers who can't see their kids to Taxi drivers looking for re-regulation, these groups appoint a representative to liase with the Garda. Let them know where the parade is going and what (smashing up cars and who owns the car) is going to happen. Because of the semi-spontaneous nature of Reclaim-the-streets, no representative, from my information was appointed. The Garda had very little notification of what was going to happen and where, makes things a little bit difficult to organise. So great care and consideration was not given.

Emergency vehicles would have a far easier time getting where they need to be in a car free city, human beings have very good reaction skills to sirens – even crusties.

Well apparentily this group of crusties (your words not mine), had difficulty understanding a (reasonable) request from a Garda not to block the street. I amn't supporting actions taken by some members of the force in response to non-compliance with the Garda request.

Tax payers money is disproportionately spent on roads rather than public transport (a measly 28% of the transport budget last year went on public transport) with travel time actually increasing rather than decreasing. Interestingly, spending on public transport is most frequently referred to as “subsidies” whereas road building is known as an “investment”.

Won't argue with you here or against the objective of reclaim the streets, which are honorable, and should be shared by every son and daughter of Ireland.

unlike the kind of thing you’ll see after the masses have left Landsdowne road or Croke Park, to be fair

don't they get charged by the city council ?

Why are so many god awful developments being blanketed across Ireland with no provision made for the occupants

problems are much more complex than they seems, Ireland has a high rate of car ownership largily because of the ribbon development nature of Irish housing, everyone wants their little house on a boreen with .6 of a acre around it, deny an Irish person this and it will be claimed you are invading there human/civil rights.

If RTS is about changing the attidutes of the people of Dublin City or of the greater island of Ireland. They have a piss poor way of doing it IMHO, dance music and street parties are not going to sway or appeal to Irish people en mass, they have been just as badily damage by the fiasco last year amoung the broad section of Irish opinion.

If they really want to be taken seriousily, they should rethink how they are trying to comunicate with Mrs Murphy in No 23 Ireland Avenue.

DeVore

Will SWP or SWF be there?

If so how can you claim it will be "unbranded".

From my point of view, I'm a member of Corporate Ireland. But I'm a responsible member imho.

I dont drive a car. At all.

We dont spam, we dont invade your privacy with logos or hoardings.

I like the idea of RTS and I can even juggle

However I am not going to attend if SWP/SWF are going to "brand" the event as theirs or flog their membership or t-shirts or what have you. If they do... can I bring Boards T-Shirts?

I'm certainly not going to attend for them to claim it as a "massive success" for them politically (which I've seen them do before).

I think I may go to this one but I'm going to bring a digicamera and go as an amateur photo-journo... Observe and record.

You never know, if it smells clean of alternate-stealth-branding I might even juggle.

DeV

DadaKopf

problems are much more complex than they seems, Ireland has a high rate of car ownership largily because of the ribbon development nature of Irish housing, everyone wants their little house on a boreen with .6 of a acre around it, deny an Irish person this and it will be claimed you are invading there human/civil rights.

Of course you're right. RTS, though, is an urban event/movement, not a rural one (and this itself represents the urbanisation of public policy, even in rural areas). RTS highlights the structural imbalance of cities: cities emerge as strategic centres of trade/commerce in which people are expected to live. Due to the (largely unregulated) nature urban development, within the logic of neo-liberalism (I'm talking about Dublin, London, New York - global cities), the social/ecological side is generally left out of the equation. The imbalance occurs when cities are treated as commercial sites first and social systems second. Efficiency replaces quality.

The same analysis could be applied to rural areas, too, I suppose, but then space isn't as rationed there, is it?

Nonetheless, rural communities are being uprooted by urban-centric policies/economic planning so they're involved in it too. Rural communities produce commodities for urban consumption, since that's really what cities do these days. RTS is urban-oriented because it's in cities where the symptoms of uh, market logic, are most acutely felt.

So in reference to your point: Perhaps an effort could be made to bus in country folk to make a point about the effect of the 'car-centric' economy on quality of life in rural areas?

MDR

The imbalance occurs when cities are treated as commercial sites first and social systems second. Efficiency replaces quality.

Perhaps it has become charactistic of the current of adminisration and indeed the Irish people over the last decade, business before people (although its fair to say there are noteable exceptions, the minimun wage).

I believe quite deepily in the values of RTS, the city is for the people, you can hear me voice as much regularily over on the 'Esat' forum.

My attitudes have recentily changed from being extremely business friendily, to being fiercily 'Quality of Life' motivated. I firmly believe its high time we got back to putting people first. The business centric (business first) way of doing was absolutely necessary IMHO to get people back to work, no-one remembers the poverty of the eighties as well as I and I have no desire to revisit those times, but some small concessions from the bussines community won't kill them.

(if your interested, number one on my list would making every shop owner responsible for the pavement outside there business premises, how many suburban newsagents courtyards are awash with litter ?).

I see now and accept that RTS is urban movement, although I believe that they are still, even if they abandoned their confrontational style in favour of something more Ireland friendily, going to have one hell of a job convincing joe public to ditch the car. Their time might be better spent with Bus Rage or Platform 11, might represent too much work and not enough fun for them though.

cormac_byrne

However I am not going to attend if SWP/SWF are going to "brand" the event as theirs or flog their membership or t-shirts or what have you. If they do... can I bring Boards T-Shirts?

I'm certainly not going to attend for them to claim it as a "massive success" for them politically (which I've seen them do before).

I think I may go to this one but I'm going to bring a digicamera and go as an amateur photo-journo... Observe and record.

You never know, if it smells clean of alternate-stealth-branding I might even juggle.

As far as I know certain "parties" have been told off for attempting to brand the event and for selling newspapers in what is supposed to be a non-commercial space.

If people from any party / organisation want to come along and give away free newsletters / magazines / t-shirts, I don't think the RTS has a problem with that. (after all that's just free speech)

(Got some info myself from the Carrickminders at the September party)

Attempts to hijack the event for their own purposes are a different matter entirely, such behaviour is deemed to be very uncool indeed. Unfortunately there will always be some uncool people. Best we can do is firmly but politely point out the error of their ways.

So bring along lots of boards.ie t-shirts, give them to people who havn't heard about it. Let them know what a forum boards.ie is for discussing transport, environment & other issues relevant to RTS partygoers.

P.S. don't forget the juggling clubs. Maybe you could stealthily brand boards.ie onto them ;-)

*** RTS we're not a party - we're having one ***

DeVore

I'd love to bring free Boards.ie t-shirts but I'm UTTERLY STONKINGLY broke.

I would never try and brand such an event either overtly or on the sly.

I just dont want to be a poster boy for the SWP/F who get RIGHT up my hooter with their bandwagonning.

DeV.

cormac_byrne

Originally posted by DeVore
... I'm UTTERLY STONKINGLY broke ...

DeV.

Well RTS is free, If you're broke and hungry keep an eye out for the 'Food not Bombs' crew, they'll feed ya (so long as you havn't invaded a foreign country and dropped tons of bombs on it!)

I suppose 'Spacecfaft' will be back again providing free theatre and of course the music, dancing, fire juggling, etc... is free for all to enjoy. Absolutely no cash required whatsoever.

P.S. Juggling clubs are very useful for keeping undesirable newsletter sellers at a safe distance :-)

*** RTS It's a free for all that's free for all ***

kitty-kat

QUOTE: Not a single Garda sustained even the most minor of injuries.
Do you have any press evidence to back this up ? or is this good old hearsay, because the hearsay I heard was that the senior member of the garda had a few stitches in the side of his head

I trawled through every newspaper after the event and am a regular news watcher neither I nor anyone I know heard any such report. There is no doubt in my mind any such injury would have been trumpeted. So your right, hearsay is a waste of time.

Without wishing to divert too much from the point a woman was taken to hospital with head injuries that night and a friend of mine was dragged by the throat and sustained huge grazes and bruises – to name but one.

QUOTE: The Garda had very little notification of what was going to happen and where, makes things a little bit difficult to organise. So great care and consideration was not given.

I’ll repeat because the context of that paragraph seems to have been lost. Great care and consideration was given to the location so as not to alienate the very people we are appealing to i.e. Public transport users and other sympathetic types. Yes of course no one was “appointed” to liase with the cops. When we had peacefully celebrated for a good 3 ½ hours and wanted to move off peacefully and safely, a few people approached the Gardaí (on both occasions – May & Sept) and informed the Gardaí of our intentions to move the crowd somewhere where everyone could disperse safely (Civic Offices in May & Stephen’s Grn in Sept.). One the first occasion they ignored us and blocked the crowd several times along the quays, eventually pushing the crowd onto Parliament St. on the second occasion they were most obliging. ; ) no fracas, no melee, no ****. Very little reportage.

QUOTE: problems are much more complex than they seems, Ireland has a high rate of car ownership largily because of the ribbon development nature of Irish housing, everyone wants their little house on a boreen with .6 of a acre around it, deny an Irish person this and it will be claimed you are invading there human/civil rights.

I agree, a huge part of the challenge that faces people campaigning for sustainable transport is value change. Our small island simply cannot sustain the nature of development that is taking place. What I’m really driving at (oops! Excuse the pun) is enormous estates of (identikit eyesore) houses, most significantly with not even a cornershop in sight, residents have to drive to get a pint of milk, never mind take kids to school, or get to work. The problem is of course at it’s worst in the Dublin area but it must be remembered such artificial little “suburbs” are springing up all over Ireland and are forcing people into their cars. Lets face it – who actually wants to sit in their car for hours on end every day, right?

It strikes me that there doesn’t seem too much debate on the need to cut our car use, more the means by which we appeal to Joe public. I don’t think there is any one way (if I’m wrong tell me!!!) I think the issue must be tackled on many, many fronts. Car culture is so detrimental in so many ways it is just about demonstrating this to people in a way that they see the immediate relevance to their lives. A lot of people really don’t give a **** about the “environment”, their none to keen about getting ripped off to waste hours day in day out though. Etc.
Personally I see street parties as a means among many to effect change.

QUOTE re RURAL AREAS: The same analysis could be applied to rural areas, too, I suppose, but then space isn't as rationed there, is it?

Ehhh…yes!

QUOTE: I just don’t want to be a poster boy for the SWP/F who get RIGHT up my hooter with their bandwagonning.

Bloody Bloody Bloody oath!!!!! Yet another bloody challenge.

Speaking more broadly though, it’s interesting to see; on numerous occasions (anti war demos incld.) I have seen such an array of different people engaging with one pain in the arse and just politely ask that they quit whatever is they’re doing that’s endangering/annoying etc. people. Sooner or later with enough respectful requests, without ANY authority figure I have seen many a problem resolved. DEMOCRATICALLY. It really is up to people on the day to be assertive and think hey hold on a minute this is my space too and I’ve every right to ASK this person to stop. It might sound like bull****, but that’s exactly what we are conditioned to think that there needs to be someone in charge. Events like these can be very empowering indeed.


And in the interest of accuracy (of which I am a big fan!) the information I got from ENFO was 3 years old! So it was actually 23% of the total transport investment budget between 1996 –1999 (not last yr) that was spent on public transport. I’m sure that figure has increased during this period what with LUAS and all.

Ye might want to check out.
http://www.carfree.com
http://www.carbusters.org[/URL]

MDR

There is no doubt in my mind any such injury would have been trumpeted. So your right, hearsay is a waste of time.

As I remember, the Garda did very little talking about the event after the event, this was because there is a legal obligation on the Garda not to discuss with the media any event for which people may be procescuted (spelling ?).

RTS supporters where free to paint the Garda in anyway they wished after the event and the Garda where quite powerless to respond. So you really have no basis to say what did or did not happen to the Garda on that day, from what I heard from some members of the Garda, they were honest that some members acted very inapproproately but the RTS where alot less than the anarchist angels they would have themselves portaited as.

Without wishing to divert too much from the point a woman was taken to hospital with head injuries that night and a friend of mine was dragged by the throat and sustained huge grazes and bruises – to name but one.

Forgive my scepticism but the number of people worming their way out of the woodwork since RTS last year, claiming victimisation at the hands of the Garda has been astonding. Don't get me wrong, there are enough genuine cases of brutality on that day for us to be very concerned.

The actual footage on indymedia (quite capable if not a little basised reporting), images of people being attacked where there but still not in the proportions many would have us believe.

I suppose my point is that at this stage I am well used to hearing exaggerated claims of persecution of crusties (again your words not mine) at the hands of the Garda, and indeed the London Metropolitan Police (Mayday riots), the PSNI (quite recentily), the Parisian police etc (the 'A pied' protests I attended in '97) ...

few people approached the Gardaí (on both occasions – May & Sept) and informed the Gardaí of our intentions to move the crowd somewhere where everyone could disperse safely .

Normally it is courtesy for groups such as RTS to have protests such as this, liased with the Garda from a very earily stage. Its is not sufficent to decide on the day what is going to happen and where, nor is sufficent for a group of people to approach the Garda with requests to go to place X or Y etc ...

The centre of Dublin city as most metropolitan areas is a very busy place, and organising protests to go off without a hitch is something the Garda authorities have become, well in light of last years RTS's 'expert' is proababily too kind a word, let us say skilled over the years.

There are plenty of protests on the streets of Dublin over the course of the year, every year, and the Garda usually preform their job quite well, in particular (others have heard me comment on this on the boards recentily, sorry if I am repeating myself). I watched the peace protest of Saturday March 29th last from Molesworth Street, the protestors charged like mad men out in front of traffic on St Stevens Green, running underneath buses etc. The Garda acting quickily and professionally to the situation.

RTS and similar anti-gobalisation groups have had endless trouble elsewhere in Europe, I was therefore I am sorry to say I was not suprised when it came to Dublin.

Personally I see street parties as a means among many to effect change.

The large majority of the people who attend RTS parties are young late teens and earily twenties students, surely if you want to effect change you would need to appeal to a wider cross section of the population ?

kitty-kat

The media reported no Garda injury after MAy 6th. Why? because there was none.

QUOTE: Normally it is courtesy for groups such as RTS to have protests such as this, liased with the Garda from a very earily stage. Its is not sufficent to decide on the day what is going to happen and where, nor is sufficent for a group of people to approach the Garda with requests to go to place X or Y etc ...

No it is not. RTS have never, to my knowledge, liased with authorities, at ANY stage. People seem to forget that May 6th was the first street arty a lot of the organisers even attended! Never mind organised. Previous parties had been tiny events, ending after less than an hour. This turnout was unprecedented and, largely and unfortunately, unprepared for. we simply never dreamed we’d get 1,000+ on the day. Please focus your critique on September last, in case you weren’t there briefly…
There was a planned wrap up time, a definite route to the ending off point, no violence, good communication with the cops, which, incidentally, is Never a "request to go to place X or Y". A statement of clear intent to peacefully walk through our own city, nothing more.

My use of the word “crusties” was ironic, as you know, so perhaps we can move now beyond pigeon-holing. It does no-one any justice.

QUOTE: The large majority of the people who attend RTS parties are young late teens and earily twenties students, surely if you want to effect change you would need to appeal to a wider cross section of the population ?

Emm… yes. That is why I believe it is one means among many. Parties appeal to some people other actions/campaigns/initiatives etc. appeal to others.
That is many of us direct our attention and energy elsewhere also.

regards.

bonkey

Originally posted by MDR
The large majority of the people who attend RTS parties are young late teens and earily twenties students, surely if you want to effect change you would need to appeal to a wider cross section of the population ?

I'd imagine that the argued logic there is that we need to appeal to the up-and-coming generation, as it is they who will really make the difference.

Unfortunately, history is littered with up-and-coming generations who should have made a difference and havent, as they lose their "easy" youthful idealism once faced with the realities of the increasing personal and familial responsibilities they have making their way in the world.

Ultimately, RTS claims to be about "raising awareness" - which is a fair point. Unfortunately, the awareness that it raises is that there's a lot of people who would disrupt traffic for a party, and talk about "reclaiming" the streets.

Reclaim them from who? The traffic? thats who the streets were put there for. What were streets before traffic that we should reclaim them?

Reclaim them for what? The only message RTS seems to send is "for fun". I can really see that having a practical application in the middle of Dublin city...which already shuts down large urban areas on a semi-regular basis for organised street parties and other events. Indeed, such events show how it is possible to stage large social events on the streets of Dublin without adding to the traffic disruption massively, or with an organised traffic plan so that people can at least be aware of where the problems are.

So is it "fun when appropriate", or is it that the streets should be useable for any reason at any time? The latter is in appropriate. The former is already there.

So is it just about congestion? I hope not. I don't think anyone needs a major event to tell them that Dublin has a traffic problem.

This is the basic problem. RTS - the event - sends the wrong message. RTS - the "advocates" - then spend a massive amount of energy trying to tell people why this happy, good demonstration wasnt actually the anarchistic, damn-the-system excuse for a party that it has appeared to be, and that there was a really friendly message underneath it all. And whats that message? The only message I seem to get out of it is that our streets would be better if they werent so congested? I think urban residents figured that out long ago, and without a street-party to jog along their mental processes.

If the message isnt getting through from the event itself, maybe its the event which is at fault, and not the observers. Is it just some blind belief that if the same format is used enough times that people will suddenly stop viewing it as a problem and suddenly go "Right - I didnt get that it was about <insert cause here> the last 20 times, but now I see that it really is". Come on....

I love that we're even having this discussion about a "semi-spontaneous" event....which has its time, date, location etc. carefully scripted and chosen, and its existence advertised. What makes it semi-spontaneous?

"Semi-advertised" I'd agree with - as the location is not disclosed (but going by the careful consideration that went into Burgh Quay, we can assume the location has been researched and decided), but there is nothing spontaneous about these events any more.

The only difference I can see between an RTS event in Dublin, and one of the myriad of officially organised street-parties that have been held is that key information for one is deliberately withheld from the authorities, whilst the other is carefully planned and orchestrated to cause the minimum disruption.

Funnily, the disruptive on is supposed to send the message about how better our streets could be. I cant see how that works.

jc

jc

MDR

The media reported no Garda injury after MAy 6th. Why? because there was none.

The onus is quite clearily on me then to provide sources citing Garda injury on the day, but as the sources I have consulted wouldn't appreciate me quoting them, I will have to let the matter rest. Suffice say to journo's are very fickle and lack of media attentions on an issue or over-exposure of another issues, is not evidence of anything.

There are several facts the journos' lightly skipped over ... quite a few of the people arrested at the May RTS in Dublin where English for instance, some had previous convictions in the uk for volience at Mayday marchs etc ...

That is many of us direct our attention and energy elsewhere also.

Could you expand on that ?

bonkey

Originally posted by kitty-kat
QUOTE: Normally it is courtesy for groups such as RTS to have protests such as this, liased with the Garda from a very earily stage. ...

No it is not. RTS have never, to my knowledge, liased with authorities, at ANY stage.

Read what was written. It is courtesy for groups who wish to have a protest to liaise with the Gardai concerning the details of their protest.

The fact that no RTS group have ever done this is only backing the "somewhat irresponsible" claim further....as you are admitting that they do not give the gardai this courtesy. The only justification you seem to offer is "we never offer this".

A statement of clear intent to peacefully walk through our own city, nothing more.

Clear intent? No offence, but could you actually explain how you - or any orgniser - could be aware of the intents of each and every member of the attendance?

Surely you mean that it was the clear intent of the organisers to lead a bunch of people peacefully through the city and hope that the people would do as you wished.

Which reminds me....

Do the RTS organisers accept responsibility - including financial - for any personal, corporate, or civic damage which may ensue as a result of attendees not abiding by the organiser's "clear intent"?

Given that the organisation of the event specifically excludes the authorities, to do any less would be nothing but gross irresponsibility, as the organisers are directly culpable for the creation of the situation within which such damage was caused.

So....do they? And if not, why not?

jc

kitty-kat

Reclaim them from who? The traffic? thats who the streets were put there for. What were streets before traffic that we should reclaim them?

Dublin city was not designed with cars in mind, the city is over 1,000 years old, not 100. Human traffic, bikes, pedestrians, horses even, but not cars. The philosophy, to my mind, is to reclaim public space for the people that should have dominion over it… the public. That’s not more pedestrian streets with lots of great shops!! Or more parks (though I love them) practicalities must be addressed we need to get around; go to work, school, shops etc. We need a sustainable, healthy liveable city - in a democracy the people of an area should at the very least, have a say in how that is done.

What makes it semi-spontaneous?

The fact that no one is telling others what to do. People are invited to attend as both guest and host, bring instruments, food or whatever else they need to have a good time. Take responsibility for themselves and the area around them and cease being so bloody passive.

QUOTE: That is many of us direct our attention and energy elsewhere also.
Could you expand on that ?

I can only speak for myself, and I’d rather not expand actually, unfortunately you’re just going to have to take my word. (or not, as the case may be)

QUOTE: Normally it is courtesy for GROUPS SUCH AS RTS to have protests such as this, liased with the Garda from a very earily stage.

Read what was written. I did.

It is courtesy for groups who wish to have a protest – well that covers a multitude doesn’t it?

to liaise with the Gardai concerning the details of their protest.

The fact that no RTS group have ever done this is only backing the "somewhat irresponsible" claim further....as you are admitting that they do not give the gardai this courtesy.

Courtesy my arse. So you think if we ask nicely and they say no we should pack up and join the SWP; they seem to have a great handle on sheparding demoralising “protests” (or recruitment sessions)

The only justification you seem to offer is "we never offer this".

Because it is in neither the tradition nor philosophy of those, throughout the world who participate in RTS events, to ask for permission and give a detailed plan. If the police choose to join and feel their talents are best served looking for and stopping trouble, well and good. But they are not needed (please read previous posts) there is a long history of non-violent conflict resolution, maybe not in this country, but it’s growing. People are actually capable of taking responsibility for themselves and those around them without the threat or use of violence. (the only means Gardaí understand and employ).

QUOTE: No offence, but could you actually explain how you - or any orgniser - could be aware of the intents of each and every member of the attendance

I don’t pretend to and anyone who does is a fool.

QUOTE: Do the RTS organisers accept responsibility - including financial - for any personal, corporate, or civic damage which may ensue as a result of attendees not abiding by the organiser's "clear intent"?

Is this genuine or facetious?

QUOTE: There are several facts the journos' lightly skipped over ... quite a few of the people arrested at the May RTS in Dublin where English for instance…
And their nationality is relevant why?

some had previous convictions in the uk for volience at Mayday marchs etc ...

I see, yes the police in the U.K have always been very tolerant of protestors, very reasonable. No bull**** convictions. I must look into these rebel rousers and cancel their invitations.

I’m curious to hear alternative proposals. The criticism is great and I enjoy these questions being posed but what about suggestions too?

Forgive me, i'll probably have to leave it there for today lads, or i'm likely to loose my job!
Ciao for now.
KK

mazzyianne

Originally posted by DeVore
Will SWP or SWF be there?

If so how can you claim it will be "unbranded".

DeV

Well, it's pretty impossible to ban anyone from going to RTS, its a free open party.
I was going to make 'SWP? Not me' badges )or to be more fair party political not me, but it doesnt have quite the same ring to it) and hand them out, but Im not sure I'll get around to making them.
T-shirts would be good.

As for arranging things with the gardai, I dont believe this should be done.
I mean protests are always pre arranged with the gardai, we turn up we are hoarded up and down streets, given a nice safe zone in which to release any anger, let off steam or whatever. Chant, sing, dance. We are kept to the streets where not to many people will notice us, only those in cars whos way we are obstructing (bad when protest has nothing to do with cars) and then when it's all over we go home made to feel like we've done something when infact we have achieved nothing.
There's a great article called the policing of mass protest all about a study done on this in London. P.A.J. Waddington I believe it was wrote it.
I think this is why violence errupts at protests, its frustrating and people realise they are not being listened to and anger is turned against the Gardai, as the symbol of the state or whatever.
I hope this makes sense, its been bugging me for ages

MDR

Courtesy my arse. So you think if we ask nicely and they say no we should pack up and join the SWP; they seem to have a great handle on sheparding demoralising “protests”

i would not presume to call the 100,000 people who took to the street peacefully to protest against the war in iraq a demoralised protest.

Because it is in neither the tradition nor philosophy of those, throughout the world who participate in RTS events, to ask for permission and give a detailed plan.

No-one is compelling you to ask permission to have a protest, despite the 1984-esque propaganda peddled by many, Ireland is a democratic nation, and you do have the right to protest about whatever you damn well feel like it. But most people would see though as being a reasonable courtesy to liase with the Garda to minimise distruption to the other people of the city. The first step of seek to change the attidutes of a people is respect for those same people and their way of life.

And their nationality is relevant why?

I will paint the picture i illuded to a little clearer shall I, they came to Ireland specifically to cause trouble, a desproportionate number of english young people where arrested that day, none of them where Irish Residents. Long way to come for a street party ?

People are actually capable of taking responsibility for themselves and those around them without the threat or use of violence. (the only means Gardaí understand and employ).

You said earilier that you would be foolish to know the motives or intentions of all the RTS party goers, you then sir would equally foolish to claim to know the intentions or motives or the 11,000 + Garda. Most of us have had positive and negative expierence of the Garda, as with any profession or organisation I don't suppose to write off the whole lot because the actions of the few, if the Garda had only understood volience and threat would we not have a RTS fiasco at every protest in Dublin ?

Here is a suggestion for go down to Pearse street or Store Garda station before the next RTS and sit down with the inspector or station sergerant and get things organised. (although I suspect this may have already been done).

MDR

I think this is why violence errupts at protests, its frustrating and people realise they are not being listened to and anger is turned against the Gardai, as the symbol of the state or whatever.
I hope this makes sense, its been bugging me for ages

Makes quite alot of sense, although it needs to tempered against the right of other citizens to get on with their lives with minimum of distruption.

How do you allow everyone who wants to protest the absolute freedom to do so (and there are alot of groups who protest) without fear of censorship or oppression, but still ensure that Mrs Brennan in No 24 gets home from the shops in time for fair city.

kitty-kat

Courtesy my arse. So you think if we ask nicely and they say no we should pack up and join the SWP; they seem to have a great handle on sheparding demoralising “protests”

i would not presume to call the 100,000 people who took to the street peacefully to protest against the war in iraq a demoralised protest.

That was organised by the Irish Anti War Movement was it not? and attended by hundreds, if not thousands of non-affliated individuals. I do hope you are not suggesting that the SWP were the sole heroes of that venture? It was a fantastic, unforgettable, hopeful and empowering day, I mean that sincerely - it did nothing to stop refuelling.


Quote:

Because it is in neither the tradition nor philosophy of those, throughout the world who participate in RTS events, to ask for permission and give a detailed plan.
But most people would see though as being a reasonable courtesy to liase with the Garda to minimise distruption to the other people of the city.

I guess we’re back to perception and personal terms of reference. You see. I don’t think it is necessarily discourteous not to liase with them. I do not consider this particular event as falling within they’re job description. A community get together does not need hired thugs. If they want to come in costume, fair enough, it is actually encouraged (costume, not uniform) Shouldn’t they be out catching crims or something? Surely a protest that causes little disruption is a bit of a misnomer isn’t it? Choosing bank holidays or Sundays is one way of minimising disruption to the people i think you are in fear of alienating.

QUOTE: The first step of seek to change the attidutes of a people is respect for those same people and their way of life.

Absolutely. And the second step is to challenge them …just a little at first…


QUOTE: I will paint the picture i illuded to a little clearer shall I, they came to Ireland specifically to cause trouble, a desproportionate number of english young people where arrested that day, none of them where Irish Residents. Long way to come for a street party ?

it's a long way to come for a hen night too, but people do it (though why escapes me)

Awright, I’m sorry, I can’t let this one go. How many English out of how many arrestees? Or if you really need to protect your “sources” what percentage?

quote:
People are actually capable of taking responsibility for themselves and those around them without the threat or use of violence. (the only means Gardaí understand and employ).
You said earlier that you would be foolish to know the motives or intentions of all the RTS party goers, you then sir would equally foolish to claim to know the intentions or motives or the 11,000 + Garda.

…if the Garda had only understood volience and threat would we not have a RTS fiasco at every protest in Dublin ?

I never claimed to know the intentions or motives of the 11,000+ Gardaí. I was referring to the means by which the apparatus operates, it is thus:

If you are good* we don’t know you.
If you are in need of help*; we help you.
If you are bad*, we arrest (or beat) & imprison you, or both

*by our terms.

Now, a lot of people believe we need individuals with extra power over us because they alone stand between law and order and utter mayhem. Hmmmm… I have a little more faith in my fellow human beings. I’ve been in small and very large groups where no one person or group was responsible – because we all were. And you know what? nobody killed anyone, stole, wantonly destroyed things or hurt anybody!
Every Gard has the leverage, (in any debate/row/confrontation) of the state’s permission to use violence against us, however mild. They each have the power to deny another human being their liberty, for however short a period of time. Gards can shove people around, manhandle, bruise etc. as part of their “duty”; a lay person can be charged for merely resisting, even if peacefully!!! Whether or not the gard resorts to violence is a matter of his/her discretion, I’m not for a moment saying they all would. I’m saying they have approval to do so and the THREAT of that domination is the most common means by which they resolve conflict.

QUOTE: Most of us have had positive and negative expierence of the Garda, as with any profession or organisation I don't suppose to write off the whole lot because the actions of the few.

Yes, I would think you grossly unfair if you did.

regards

bonkey

Originally posted by kitty-kat
The fact that no RTS group have ever done this is only backing the "somewhat irresponsible" claim further....as you are admitting that they do not give the gardai this courtesy.
Courtesy my arse. So you think if we ask nicely and they say no we should pack up and join the SWP; they seem to have a great handle on sheparding demoralising “protests” (or recruitment sessions)

Who said anything about asking? Tell them where it will be, when it will be, estimated size, what the organisers consider to be acceptable behaviour by attendees and what is not (thus giving the police a mandate to interfere quickly should things get begin to get out of hand).

It is no secret as to what date the next RTS will be held on. As a result, the police will have their manpower lined up, as well as all the riot kit and what have you, and will be just sitting on a knife-edge so that as soon as they hear where the event is they can get there as quickly as possible.

Of course, by knowing where the event will be, they can manage the disturbance caused...unless of course part of the idea of RTS is to show how giving the streets back to the public will cause disturbances, rather than give us our "freedom" back.

But they are not needed (please read previous posts)

First of all, that is not your decision to make.
Secondly, having read previous posts, I noticed this about the first RTS :

This turnout was unprecedented and, largely and unfortunately, unprepared for.

Right...so the police are not wanted or needed, even when the organisers screw things up? OK.

You ask us to ignore this first one, and I ask why? It was an RTS. It was orgnised as such. Events outside the control of the organisers screwed it up for everyone. Now what have you put in place to prevent this happening again, bearing in mind that you claim its spontaneous because there is (and I quote) "no-one telling anyone what to do".

QUOTE: No offence, but could you actually explain how you - or any orgniser - could be aware of the intents of each and every member of the attendance

I don’t pretend to and anyone who does is a fool.

Yet you notified the police of "your clear intent" to perform a specific action as a large group. Are you telling me that whoever did that was a fool, or that they werent - in fact - representing the clear intent of the attendees, but rather expressing a hope as to what the intent of the attendees was?

QUOTE: Do the RTS organisers accept responsibility - including financial - for any personal, corporate, or civic damage which may ensue as a result of attendees not abiding by the organiser's "clear intent"?

Is this genuine or facetious?

100% genuine. The RTS organisers decide not to involve the police in the planning. They decide to take the law into their own hands. They decide which part of the city is to have its "public spaces" turned over to them for the attendees to do with as they will (remember - no-one tells anyone what to do, which also means no-one tells them what not to do).

They decide, they enable the masses to congegrate so why arent they responsible? In all forms of mass protest, or mass gathering, the organisers are held to blame, unless they can show that they took all reasonable precautions against whatever transpired.

RTS refuses to give the police advance warning of hte location, so it sure as hell hasnt taken all reasonable precautions.

So I'm 100% genuine. If they dont accept responsibility, explain to me why not.

I’m curious to hear alternative proposals. The criticism is great and I enjoy these questions being posed but what about suggestions too?

To be quite honest, I'm still trying to interepret the message RTS says its trying to send, and the message that is being received by the people. When I get through that, I'll start thinking about the actual overall goal and what I'd do differently.

jc

Borzoi

I've always presumed that the RTS peops wanted increased/enhanced pedestrian areas, and gretaer public transport (who doesn't) but they've never really said.

Would any member care to clarify and quantify what they want, and how it could be achioieved, at what cost, and who'll pay. Surely these issues have been addressed.

Or are they merely another group happy to wander around with placards saying "Down with that sort of thing"

MDR

I do hope you are not suggesting that the SWP were the sole heroes of that venture? It was a fantastic, unforgettable, hopeful and empowering day, I mean that sincerely - it did nothing to stop refuelling.

ah ... on reading back I mis-understood, I assumed you where asserting that all protests which liased with the Garda, where demoralised events etc, apparentily its only the ones organised by the SWP ...

I don’t think it is necessarily discourteous not to liase with them.

every other protest group etc does, why are you special ?

? Surely a protest that causes little disruption is a bit of a misnomer isn’t it?

would you classify sitting in the middle of Dame street and refusing to move ... 'little disruption'.

Shouldn’t they be out catching crims or something?

The name 'An Garda Schíochána' translate as 'guardians of the peace', thats more or less what they are trying to do when policing protests or parades. They aren't only there to tackle crime.

Choosing bank holidays or Sundays is one way of minimising disruption to the people i think you are in fear of alienating.

Also liasing with the Garda to ensure traffic is appropiately diverted etc, is another good way to lessen disruption.

protect your “sources” what percentage?

jesus, that particular conversation I was quoting was a long time ago, there was something like 18 people arrested, 5 or 6 of them where from the uk I think.

Absolutely. And the second step is to challenge them …just a little at first…

you aren't at the second step yet, you are still having trouble with the first respecting them bit, don't get ahead of yourself.

I never claimed to know the intentions or motives of the 11,000+ Gardaí. I was referring to the means by which the apparatus operates, it is thus:

no but you did say

People are actually capable of taking responsibility for themselves and those around them without the threat or use of violence. (the only means Gardaí understand and employ).

painting every Garda with the same brush, so if you quite rightly claim to not know the intentions of every RTS party goer, you certainily cannot claim to know the calibre of every Garda in the nation ... or have you meet every Garda in the country.

I’ve been in small and very large groups where no one person or group was responsible – because we all were. And you know what? nobody killed anyone, stole, wantonly destroyed things or hurt anybody

Probabily in a group of people who choose to be there, to say that the Garda or indeed any police force is not required is equally as foolish as saying that we must live in facist police state for our protection.

Gards can shove people around, manhandle, bruise etc. as part of their “duty”; a lay person can be charged for merely resisting, even if peacefully!!!

Garda are entitled to make resonable requests to enforce law, if you break the law you will be arrested. A Garda isn't really supposed to think of the grander plan, the rights and wrongs as, he job is to enforce the law.

Take for instance the woman who vandalised the plan in Shannon, the Garda had to arrest her for vandalism and tresspassing, but its up to the courts to decide if she was justified in this action not the Garda.

Similarily a bunch of people sit down in Kildare Street and block the throughfair, they are asked to move and they refuse, the Garda is left with no alternative but to inforce the law (well as he sees it). There is no malice on his or her party, I can assure you he/she would be much happy at home with their feet up.

I’m saying they have approval to do so and the THREAT of that domination is the most common means by which they resolve conflict.

I have never meet a Garda who solely resolve problems with the threat of physical domination. The actual instances where the garda can act as a mediator are fairly limited, usually there is very clear law to be inforced but I have first hand seen Garda resolving difficult circumstance with understanding and compassion.

Perhaps you should question how you are creating conflict such that you are only seeing that side of the Garda which enforces the law. Sitting in the middle of the street and refusing to move doesn't allow a Garda much room to mediate.

mazzyianne

Originally posted by MDR



I will paint the picture i illuded to a little clearer shall I, they came to Ireland specifically to cause trouble, a desproportionate number of english young people where arrested that day, none of them where Irish Residents. Long way to come for a street party ?

Reclaim the Streets is relatively new to Ireland and has been around for years in England. Until May 6th, when Irish people heard the name RTS they thought - what?
When English people heard it they thought - PARTY!!!

That could explain it for ya

[/B][/QUOTE] How do you allow everyone who wants to protest the absolute freedom to do so (and there are alot of groups who protest) without fear of censorship or oppression, but still ensure that Mrs Brennan in No 24 gets home from the shops in time for fair city. [/B]

I wish I knew....
I dont think blocking the streets helps most protests, against fees or war or pay or whatever. But If it's a 'protest' against cars, it makes sense.
I wish there was a better way, something that would effect the people/govt/company it should be directed at and not random people, scapegoats, like the police or the guy that works in the Top Oil station or whoever has to take all the **** for the people at the top.
Its really difficult to get your message to the right people, they're well hidden.

Mighty_Mouse

As for arranging things with the gardai, I dont believe this should be done. I mean protests are always pre arranged with the gardai, we turn up we are hoarded up and down streets, given a nice safe zone in which to release any anger, let off steam or whatever.

Come on. This is absolute tripe. How can somebody actually write this, read it back, and post it!!!!

So, what your proposing is that a 1000 people (at least) should be permitted to release their anger, in whatever street they like.

So, as opposed to a "safe zone" to release your anger ............ would ye like a dangerous zone ! Maby if we gave ye o'connel street at 5'o clock to let of yer built up steam, and release yer anger. I mean it would only be fair!!!

Can I just say that I sympatise and agree with many of the ideals behind the FTS protest, but any protest must recognise the rights of non-protesting people to about their daily business.

And therefore should be organised in consultation with the Gardai.

kitty-kat

QUOTE: Who said anything about asking? Tell them where it will be, when it will be, estimated size, what the organisers consider to be acceptable behaviour by attendees and what is not (thus giving the police a mandate to interfere quickly should things get begin to get out of hand).

I understand where you’re coming from but the fact is it is not simply a case of sending them a letter and a smile or going into the office and saying “well lads, this is what we’re doing, whether you like it or not” (now that’s discourteous!). It is not an authoritarian gathering so other than non-violent I have no more mandate to decide what is acceptable behaviour for others than I do when I walk home from work. I tend to rely on what is acceptable in social terms (though hrm.. not always;-) )

It is no secret as to what date the next RTS will be held on. As a result, the police will have their manpower lined up, as well as all the riot kit and what have you, and will be just sitting on a knife-edge so that as soon as they hear where the event is they can get there as quickly as possible.

Of course, by knowing where the event will be, they can manage the disturbance caused...unless of course part of the idea of RTS is to show how giving the streets back to the public will cause disturbances, rather than give us our "freedom" back.

No. I am not part of a counter-insurgency movement. (damn they got me)
quote:
QUOTE: But they are not needed (please read previous posts)
First of all, that is not your decision to make.
I’m not being a smart arse, it’s been a bloody long day & I can’t recall what this is referring to and it’s a looong thread.

QUOTE: Secondly, having read previous posts, I noticed this about the first RTS :
This turnout was unprecedented and, largely and unfortunately, unprepared for.
Right...so the police are not wanted or needed, even when the organisers screw things up? OK.

Hey, hold on a minute. Who said screw up? There was no concrete end plan, because previously the “end plan” was cops wading in. The numbers, as I said, were totally without precedent so no-one thought hmmm…what will we do with these 100’s of people…because we didn’t expect them. That’s not to say it was a screw up – far from it. the organisers of the party quickly realised the crowd would have to be moved to a safe (official) public space to disperse. First st. stephen’s green was suggested but we figured it was closed by then, the best & nearest alternative was civic offices, wood quay, to which we endeavoured to get swiftly and safely it was indeed the Gard’s intervention which endangered those present

QUOTE: You ask us to ignore this first one, and I ask why? It was an RTS. It was orgnised as such. Now what have you put in place to prevent this happening again, bearing in mind that you claim its spontaneous because there is (and I quote) "no-one telling anyone what to do".

I’m not sure I asked anyone to ignore the first one, I just find a disappointingly low effort made to look at the merits of the September RTS and how people learned from the events of May. There was no liasing with the cops til the end when one guy was asked to go up and say, righteeoo it’s been a great day we’re going back to stephen’s green, ciao. Quite simply, there was an end plan and a gig to send folks afterwards.
QUOTE: Events outside the control of the organisers screwed it up for everyone.
Precisely.

QUOTE: To be quite honest, I'm still trying to interepret the message RTS says its trying to send,
Fair ‘nuff.

QUOTE: and the message that is being received by the people.

How will you do that? Who are “the people”? I’d love to know because I’m finding it exceptionally difficult other than in places like this list and social events.

QUOTE: When I get through that, I'll start thinking about the actual overall goal and what I'd do differently.

Perhaps circumvent all that and sit down and just think what’s wrong with this place? What ought to change? How can that change? There may be a lot of conclusions we have in common, & some new ones would be great! I just happen to find the RTS perspective a pretty reasonable logical one.

QUOTE: I've always presumed that the RTS peops wanted increased/enhanced pedestrian areas, and gretaer public transport (who doesn't) but they've never really said.

Would any member care to clarify and quantify what they want, and how it could be achioieved, at what cost, and who'll pay. Surely these issues have been addressed.

Without wishing to appear rude, I have actually stated my case (or at least the guts of it) in previous posts. There is no membership, it is a non-hierarchical structure, various people (many of whom disagree on many issues) simply contribute whatever talents, skills and knack they have to make a good day out for as broad a group/age range as possible (it’s not just dance music – far from it), so given that I can only really speak for myself (which, as far as I am concerned, is as much as any of us should) have a glance back (I know, I waffle) and e mail me directly if you want or post questions for general perusal.

Look forward to it.
GoodnightXXX

Borzoi

Originally posted by kitty-kat
QUOTE: I've always presumed that the RTS peops wanted increased/enhanced pedestrian areas, and gretaer public transport (who doesn't) but they've never really said.

Would any member care to clarify and quantify what they want, and how it could be achioieved, at what cost, and who'll pay. Surely these issues have been addressed.

Without wishing to appear rude, I have actually stated my case (or at least the guts of it) in previous posts. .

.

In all fairness, and I have gone to the truouble of rereading your posts, you seen to have a number of aims towards 'addressing the car culture' etc. You've made no concrete proposals about what you DO want, and how to achieve it.

I want details. So far I have none.

Regds

kitty-kat

QUOTE: ah ... on reading back I mis-understood, I assumed you where asserting that all protests which liased with the Garda, where demoralised events etc, apparentily its only the ones organised by the SWP ...

No. they’re just ESPECIALLY good at it. credit where it’s due.

QUOTE: every other protest group etc does, why are you special ?

Because that is the fundamental point of Reclaim the Streets. The streets are for the people! they should not have to ask permission to congregate

QUOTE: would you classify sitting in the middle of Dame street and refusing to move ... 'little disruption'.
So you weren’t there then. As I said we were pushed on to Dame St. the crowd was split and people panicked, justifiably because a riot van was driving through the crowd and cops were cracking heads of people sitting on the ground. Nobody refused to move they either did very bloody fast…or couldn’t.

quote:

---

Shouldn’t they be out catching crims or something?

---

The name 'An Garda Schíochána' translate as 'guardians of the peace',

Yeah, I am just resorting to that crap gutter humour y'know, "get a job, you crusty" "go catch some real criminals, you thug."
Despite my obviously very inarticulate manner, please believe i think dehumanising people like that does a disservice to everyone concerned and that was not what i was trying to do before.

QUOTE: there was something like 18 people arrested, 5 or 6 of them where from the uk I think.

Actually there were 24 people arrested. I’ll report back about the nationalities mañana.

QUOTE: you aren't at the second step yet, you are still having trouble with the first respecting them bit, don't get ahead of yourself.

I find that remark pretty unfair, particularly if it is aimed at me personally because i don't think i have been dissrespectful at all since i joined.

QUOTE: I’ve been in small and very large groups where no one person or group was responsible – because we all were. And you know what? nobody killed anyone, stole, wantonly destroyed things or hurt anybody

---

QUOTE: Probably in a group of people who choose to be there, to say that the Garda or indeed any police force is not required is equally as foolish as saying that we must live in facist police state for our protection.

Don’t the people at the party choose to be there?

QUOTE: Garda are entitled to make resonable requests to enforce law, if you break the law you will be arrested. A Garda isn't really supposed to think of the grander plan, the rights and wrongs as, he job is to enforce the law.

Woh, I thought it was to protect the peace? so they are not required to think in terms of right and wrong, interesting.
no. scary.

QUOTE: Take for instance the woman who vandalised the plan in Shannon, the Garda had to arrest her for vandalism and tresspassing, but its up to the courts to decide if she was justified in this action not the Garda.

I don’t agree here, evidently Nuremberg doesn’t mean much, but we are in danger of reeeeeeeeeally drifting if I get started.

Similarily a bunch of people sit down in Kildare Street and block the throughfair, they are asked to move and they refuse, the Garda is left with no alternative but to inforce the law (well as he sees it). There is no malice on his or her party, I can assure you he/she would be much happy at home with their feet up.

Yes the overtime is a real burden on their pockets as I’m regularly reminded by several Gardaí. Look, I’m not here to villify or vindicate every Gard in the country. That’s bloody adolescent. I am criticising the APPARTATUS which gives one person disproportionate power to dominate another human being. What sickens me is this acceptance of the crap we are fed that we’d never be able to resolve anything unless some bloke or sheila who does have the power to cart you away in a big van doesn’t show up. Then we’ll respect each other. God forbid the dude in the viz vest won’t get here to point the cars down the street because nobody else has the “authority” to say “there’s something going on down there and cars won’t get through; that road’s clear that way”. It’s not flippin rocket science.

[/B][/QUOTE] How do you allow everyone who wants to protest the absolute freedom to do so (and there are alot of groups who protest) without fear of censorship or oppression, but still ensure that Mrs Brennan in No 24 gets home from the shops in time for fair city. [/B]

Well for one thing a more egalitarian society might mean um.. fewer protests.
I think Mrs. Brennan could do with some of that be less selfish mantra rts-ers get, and make provision. But maybe I’m just being cranky coz I’ve been raking my brain for the last 9 hours.

Really. Goodnight

kitty-kat

QUOTE: In all fairness, and I have gone to the truouble of rereading your posts, you seen to have a number of aims towards 'addressing the car culture' etc. You've made no concrete proposals about what you DO want, and how to achieve it.
I want details. So far I have none.

I want Carfree cities, I want an egalitarian society. VALUES have to change first. I want people to wake up and realise how powerful and beautiful and intelligent we are all capable of being, I want everyone to live in a Sustainable and low impact way, I want world peace. I’d like bigger tits but we can’t have it all.

What do you want? Seriously, I don’t have the solutions, I don’t pretend to, it would be grossly arrogant for me to come along and say well, dear residents of the entire city of Dublin (and visiting English thugs) I have the answers to your problems. Because I don’t know what they necessarily are. The time now is for individuals, groups, communities to figure out solutions, and I want to be a part of it, because I believe everyone should be a part of it. NOT just a bunch of “experts” and politicians and business investors. That’s not problem solving, that’s enterprise creating. Organisation at a Grassroots level. The people of an area thrashing it out, brainstorming, exchanging knowledge and personal experience – because their vested interest is their own quality of life and the lives of their loved ones.

You want a instant remedy. There is none.