Core problem: People's perception of broadband and its benefits.

Dangger

I'd like to start a discussion regarding what I consider to be the next looming battle.

For some time now the telco's have been claiming that there is not sufficient demand for broadband service. I realise that some may disagree with this claim and ask is it surprising given that most businesses and home users are unaware of exactly what they are missing in terms of an always on true broadband connection.

The telco's have done themselves no favours in educating people and business about the benefits of broadband. But there was of course a reason for this, the dial up and leased line revenue was too great to go letting people have more for less.

But now it appears that ironically their greed is going to hit them where it hurts revenue wise. Given that they have all had to spend, spend, spend to get their infrastructure broadband enabled, they simply must start getting returns from it.

My concern is that the telco's will view the education and increasing of awareness to be the government's role, and that the government will fail to carry it out sufficiently, leaving us with pockets of broadband in high deamnd spots only - what we have currently.

Is it simply a case of telco's carrying out educational and relevant advertising campaigns? I've heard some incredibly apalling radio adverts for broadband using someone reciting a wedding speech, which has no connection to the product whatsoever.

Or should there be an Internet/Broadband day declared at a national level with the Dáil sitting for a session answering questions posed by various school pupils around the country over their school connections?

These are just examples, but I'd really value hearing more.

This is not obvious stuff! At a recent conference in Athlone on the digital divide in rural area I met with a company who had a practical way of keeping their ISDN costs down. They simply unplug the line from the socket for a few hours a day unbeknown to their staff!

Increasing awareness is the next key step. In here especially in this forum we all know what its about and what we can /could do with it. But consider yourselves the technical elite minority!

Boston

My experience "halo i'd like to get braodband from your company"
sorry not available in your area.
"but i live in the centre of the capital of ireland, a major european city."
Sorry sir

What balls.

Anyway the point, broadbands great when its saving you money and all but unless you getting some real use out of it, people will never spend even 45 euro a month on it, let alone 100 euro. and that cap will crush the thing, because even if 90% of people never go over it, they all would like to feel they could.

SkepticOne

Another piece of evidence that Eircom would rather you not bother with broadband: remember the piece of software that you could download to see if your computer (not the line) qualified for their broadband.

If I remember correctly, it had a battery of strict tests on memory and processor speed, OS type and browser type, none of which was actually necessary for the basic broadband that they supplied. You had to have a specific version of Internet Explorer (not any version, certainly not Netscape, haeaven forbid).

I think Windows XP was also excluded.

This same company talks about stimulating demand.

Dangger

I see the merit in both your points, particularly to do with the restrictive availability of broadband, and how it's not in the telco's interest to provide. But as I mentioned before surely this is changing, they have made investment in enabling their network to provide braodband to the home, and thy are waking up to the fact that they must get a return on it. Or is this investment just a drop in the ocean?

However I'm not fully convinced by the points so far. I feel there is a huge perception deficit that will prevent people from making a speedy conversion to broadband.

I hear it from wireless operators who have reasonably priced offerings in residential areas but poor take up. Can this be just attributed to poor marketing on their side? Surely this is tied to awareness. It does not cross people's minds that that they can get online withtout a phone line.

Damage has undeniably been done to how the average punter percieves the Internet and what benefits exist with faster connections. After all didn't we amazingly pass through the whole dot com madness with the average Irish home user rarely breaking 56k! What were we missing?

Don't get me wrong I'm not nay saying (well maybe I am!) but its for educational purposes, it's something I want to tackle.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Dangger
II hear it from wireless operators who have reasonably priced offerings in residential areas but poor take up. Can this be just attributed to poor marketing on their side?

An installation fee of €250 is still a big barrier. A large part of the "mass market" appeal in the UK had to do with relatively cheap installation charges.

If the installation charge is more than 2 months fee, the "ordinary punter" isn't going to bother. A "free" modem, and a connection charge equivalent to one or two months rental is the norm in more active markets.

Lemming

Originally posted by Dangger
Or is this investment just a drop in the ocean?

With respects to eircom, I think they very much gave a token gesture of "We DO have broadband available, so quit whinging. So what if it's obscenely overpriced and no one can get it". But the other operators I think are probably cringing at the Bit-Stream costs more than any "must protect other revenues". And unfortunately the wireless OLO's aren't large enough to make a sufficient dent yet, and knowledge of their services is still largely the domain of the more tech-savvy users.

However I'm not fully convinced by the points so far. I feel there is a huge perception deficit that will prevent people from making a speedy conversion to broadband.

On this you're absolutely right I think. The consumer sees this uber-speedy connection, but thinks "why should I pay 50/100 euro for this per month, when my bi-monthly eircom bill is only , say, 30 for internet usage from my kids, etc."

I hear it from wireless operators who have reasonably priced offerings in residential areas but poor take up. Can this be just attributed to poor marketing on their side? Surely this is tied to awareness. It does not cross people's minds that that they can get online withtout a phone line.

Damage has undeniably been done to how the average punter percieves the Internet and what benefits exist with faster connections. After all didn't we amazingly pass through the whole dot com madness with the average Irish home user rarely breaking 56k! What were we missing?

I'd imagine that few people actually HAVE considered that internet usage can be delivered outside of a phoneline-esque medium, given that for so long we've been used to hearing internet, dial-up, and phone-lines in the same sentence for years.

Well, that's my two cents.

SkepticOne

I think the 'core' problem is:

1. Affordable broadband only available to around 2% of the population.

2. Unbelievably priced broadband available to 1/3 of the population. Alledgedly available.

3. Broadband not available at all to 2/3rds of the population.

Point 1 is the most important. For must people, unafordable broadband may as well not exist.

Basically, only 2 percent are beinge offered anything realistic. What is the point of raising awareness among the remaining 98%.

Some of this may change if DSL at 54 euros comes out, but it will still only be available to the minority initially and is still too expensive at 54 euros.

The reason for the above is:

1. Monopolistic bloated incumbent.
2. Lasy "competition" who exploit wholesale rates forced by the regulator.
3. Regulation that emphasises the needs of the market players rather than those of the market or consumer.

Sort those out first.

When we have cheap widely available broadband, then awareness might become the core problem.

Dangger

Okay you win!

zz03

Originally posted by Dangger
Okay you win!

I'd agree, but

"When we have cheap widely available broadband", then surely awareness will no longer be a problem either!


zz..

PiE

Another thing about the Wireless options, (apart from the installation costs) is that wireless seems like a lot of effort. Getting a big antenna on the roof, running a cable down through the attic etc. Potential for problems is also higher. So much easier to just plug a phone line into a DSL modem.

That's why I'm waiting for the new offers to materialise anyway.

spongebob

Covered in the later parts of This thread today.

Eircom 'could' supply Broadband to 500,000 lines. They spent a fortune advertising in November and bragging about this. 3,5000 took them up, 0.7% of the total potential lines (I think its not that many potential lines but still not more than 1% takeup)

The Cable operators 'could'supply 40,000 housholds...thats also probably optimistic. Nevertheless it seems that 10% of households have taken them up on it.....or 4,000

The Cable takeup is 10 times that of the Eircom takeup.

a) The Cable companies have spent NOTHING on advertising, its almost all word of mouth

b) The typical cable product is either Uncapped or else 10Gbit a monh as in Chorus.

c) The typical Cable product is 512 symmetrical (256 in Dungarvan)

d) The cost is between €35 and €50 a month while

e) The ADSL entry level price is between €100 and €110 a month.

Therefore, widescale Broadband takeup is Highly price/package sensitive. Eircom and ESAT are proposing a new tranche of products which will be significantly inferior to the Cable offerings at prices between €54 and €60 a month. I think they must drop to around €40 given the low quality of their proposed 256k offerings.

If I were to recommend one strategic government intervention, it would be for a tax break @ the 20% rate for 12 months for products at no more than €50 a month. If it costs a single cent more , no tax rebate at all.

Call it an Educational Resource Facilities Allowance, any citizen can avail of it once during their lives and for one year.

M

maxheadroom

Originally posted by Muck

c) The typical Cable product is 512 symmetrical (256 in Dungarvan)

Emmm..... NTL is 512 (actually 600) down, 128 up

Xian

The present providers of internet access are best compared to shy debutantes: The centre of attention, holding out for the best dowry. You won't get their attention 'cause you poor.

Put a couple of friskier young things in the room and you'll quickly see their demeanour becoming less than demure. Soon they begin to doubt themselves, realize that they aren't the "bright young things" they used to be. They'll be a bit more forward. Soon they realize all the money they spent on making themselves more attractive isn't having the same effect. Soon it's "Me love you long time".

Bring on the Wireless Service Providers and you'll soon see things falling into place for the consumer.

yellum

Originally posted by PiE
Getting a big antenna on the roof, running a cable down through the attic etc. Potential for problems is also higher. So much easier to just plug a phone line into a DSL modem.

The antenna is fairly small actually and it can be stuck on a sidewall too once it has line of sight. Running a cable through te attic is no biggie, its less hassle than getting a phone line installed really.

Some of the offerings are an antenna, a box that does all the magic that the antenna plugs into and a cable from this antenna that plugs into your network card.

As much hassle getting a 2nd line just for DSL.

The barrier to access to wireless products is high though unless the installation costs and the CPE (the magic box) are covered in the monthly costs.

The one good thing with wireless and customer purchased equipment is you own that line going into the house in a way. Once theres wireless competition you can just switch provider instantly. Repoint your antenna and thats it.

yellum

Originally posted by Dangger
I hear it from wireless operators who have reasonably priced offerings in residential areas but poor take up. Can this be just attributed to poor marketing on their side? Surely this is tied to awareness. It does not cross people's minds that that they can get online withtout a phone line.

Poor take up ? Look at the Irish Broadband and Irish Wisp threads in this forum alone. Theres been 100s of people trying to get online using wireless. I don't think there is poor take-up due to peoples ignorance about non phoneline options. Its availability thats an issue. Once the availability increases and people start signing up to a reliable service, word of mouth will push the take-up rates higher.

People are sceptical to a degree now thanks to idiotic government planning and all the promises (blantant lies) they made about broadband being available real soon now. They also got majorily burned by the telcos promising stuff for years.

The wireless companies need to market themselves too of course and they need to do it properly. How do people know that there are other oprions in their area. How many people have heard of Leap, irishWisp and Irish Broadband and what they can do for them.

Its all fine setting up in an area but people need to know you are there.

sceptre

Originally posted by yellum
The antenna is fairly small actually and it can be stuck on a sidewall too once it has line of sight. Running a cable through te attic is no biggie, its less hassle than getting a phone line installed really.

<snip>

As much hassle getting a 2nd line just for DSL.

I'd have to agree with yellum there. For most people, choosing between Sky and cable for their TV doesn't come down to being concerned about having to place a dish on their wall (I say "most people" because living in a listed building in Limerick, my Sky dish is now mounted in my bathroom. Fight the power etc).

Ardmore

Originally posted by yellum
As much hassle getting a 2nd line just for DSL.

Why would you get a 2nd phone line for DSL? That's one of the big advantages of DSL - it works over your existing line, without conflicting with your use of the phone!

pork99

I was trying to explain the benefits of flat rate to some off-line relatives and each time the first question they ask is "do you still have to pay e30 pm even if you dont use it all?"

I think they are pretty typical of the mass of people not online at this stage, they cannot see the benefit of friaco nevermind bb

but i live in the centre of the capital of ireland, a major european city

I can help you there Boston - the mistake you are making is to assume that you are in a "major european city"

I'm afraid that, "this is not city, it is town for peasants" (as I once heard a Dutch bloke say)

DeVore

I hug my wireless connection every night before going to bed.

I call it "George".


DeV.

Dustaz

Originally posted by pork99
I was trying to explain the benefits of flat rate to some off-line relatives and each time the first question they ask is "do you still have to pay e30 pm even if you dont use it all?"

Hammer - Nail - *bonk*


Thats what i think dave was getting at with the initial post. This is the problem telcos face in the next few years. We all know plenty of people who just dont 'get' the internet , whether they never use it or just email and browse from work.

Theres a lot of work to be done. Eircom could start by looking at what BT have been doing.

MDR

MRBI ...

LFCFan

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Another piece of evidence that Eircom would rather you not bother with broadband: remember the piece of software that you could download to see if your computer (not the line) qualified for their broadband.

If I remember correctly, it had a battery of strict tests on memory and processor speed, OS type and browser type, none of which was actually necessary for the basic broadband that they supplied. You had to have a specific version of Internet Explorer (not any version, certainly not Netscape, haeaven forbid).

I think Windows XP was also excluded.

This same company talks about stimulating demand.

Here's an example for those who haven't seen this masterful piece of software at work. Check out this image....So Called Browser Error

SkepticOne

I coudn't get the thing to run at all even though I have a fairly up to date version of Linux.

Boston

I think i may be able to help clear this up abite.

Ask the average block, does he have the internet, most likely he will say yea, i use it one every other month, costs me about a five a year. Now ask him to spend 40 euro a month on the internet and see the reaction. People simply do not use the internet enough in ireland to be interested in broadband. The first hing you find out about when you use some kind of unlimited service is broadband. You will never see the kind of interest here untill you have a flat rate narrowband offering in the mainstream. Your expecting people to go from a wheelbarrow to a sportscar, its not going to happen.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Boston
I think i may be able to help clear this up abite.

Ask the average block, does he have the internet, most likely he will say yea, i use it one every other month, costs me about a five a year. Now ask him to spend 40 euro a month on the internet and see the reaction. People simply do not use the internet enough in ireland to be interested in broadband. The first hing you find out about when you use some kind of unlimited service is broadband. You will never see the kind of interest here untill you have a flat rate narrowband offering in the mainstream. Your expecting people to go from a wheelbarrow to a sportscar, its not going to happen.

People who won't spend €5 a month for per minute calls (or who don't know how much they currently spend accessing the internet) aren't going to sign up for FRIACO either. In fact, at €40 a month (ala NTL's cable offering, or IrishWISPs offering), broadband would probably be an easier sell than even €20 a month for "all you can eat" dialup. (Though we'll see if that changes with the new 1892 phone numbers, when it becomes a lot more obvious how much those "free" internet calls really cost).

€19.60 for a 2nd phone line plus €30 a month for a FRIACO package, versus €54 a month for ADSL (no need for a 2nd phone line)? You do the math :-)

I think FRIACO might have very limited appeal in areas where DSL is actually available. It certainly isn't going to do anything to spur takeup of broadband, unless it's a nominal €5-€10 a month, and that's not likely to happen.

Boston

Originally posted by Ardmore
People who won't spend €5 a month for per minute calls (or who don't know how much they currently spend accessing the internet) aren't going to sign up for FRIACO either. In fact, at €40 a month (ala NTL's cable offering, or IrishWISPs offering), broadband would probably be an easier sell than even €20 a month for "all you can eat" dialup. (Though we'll see if that changes with the new 1892 phone numbers, when it becomes a lot more obvious how much those "free" internet calls really cost).

€19.60 for a 2nd phone line plus €30 a month for a FRIACO package, versus €54 a month for ADSL (no need for a 2nd phone line)? You do the math :-)

I think FRIACO might have very limited appeal in areas where DSL is actually available. It certainly isn't going to do anything to spur takeup of broadband, unless it's a nominal €5-€10 a month, and that's not likely to happen.

I'm just speaking from experience of trying to convince people to get broadband. Most peoples experience of the internet in ireland is so limited they really think to themselves "why do i need to do it 10 times faster" But if people where in a situation where they are using the internet much more, then i can see it having a bigger effect.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Boston
I'm just speaking from experience of trying to convince people to get broadband. Most peoples experience of the internet in ireland is so limited they really think to themselves "why do i need to do it 10 times faster" But if people where in a situation where they are using the internet much more, then i can see it having a bigger effect.

But you're making the mistake of thinking that FRIACO is going to get them using it more than they currently use it.

If they weren't using it now because they were afraid of getting a phone bill for €100 at the end of the month, then FRIACO might make a difference. Ask them. That's not what's stopping them using the Internet. If anything, the "free" internet access that we have now is more likely to encourage the non-technical user online than any flat rate product that costs "real money" (over €10). How many people by €30 top-ups for their mobile phones, instead of €5/€10 top-ups?

pork99

Originally posted by LFCFan
Here's an example for those who haven't seen this masterful piece of software at work. Check out this image....So Called Browser Error

oh boy :eek:

Hornet

I agree with Dangger's opinion: Education is the biggest problem.

People don't use the Internet because they don't know what to use it for and what benefits they get. Parents are concerned about the dangers, companies are in panic over the reduced efficiency of their employees, Internet is in the last 1.5 years a synonym for Child Porn distribution, girl-friends and wives (not sexist, just an observation) are concerned about the luring women (and football sites) out there. [Ok, I admit the last point is not the biggest problem.]

Everybody talks about Broadband in Ireland, but hardly anybody knows what they are talking about. Don't get me wrong I am not talking about people on these boards. Most people on these boards are experienced Internet users who know what they want to use the Internet for and people who have a BIG bandwidth hunger.

But this is a tiny group among the Irish population.

Many people think if Eircom says it's Hi-Speed, then it is. They don't know the difference between 56 kbit/s or 128 kbit/s or 1 Mbit/s and in all honesty, WHY should they know it.

Sky sells them a service without challenging them with techno babble. More channels and other channels is what makes Sky often a winner over NTL. It is very often NOT the price comparison and it is NOT the delivery mechanism.

That's where we make a big mistake. Why should the less-experienced Internet user have to worry about ADSL vs Wireless vs ISDN vs FRIACO. We talk about technology and bandwidth and antennas and copper loops and fiber rings and have lost probably 90% of the population in Ireland in the first 3 minutes.

A staged approach is in my opinion necessary:

1) Educate people about the tangible advantages and life(style)-improving effects the Internet can have for them.

2) Reduce their fears by putting the dangers in perspective. (NO, you don't trip over Child Porn pictures everytime you connect to the Internet. No you don't get a Virus automatically. No, your are not automatically robbed off your credit card information.)

3) Give people a POSITIVE Internet experience. Let them use it at dial-up speeds. It is fast enough for the first few steps.

4) Now you can carefully introduce the concept of "slow" and "fast" or "expensive" and "cheap".

WE (all our fault) have with our discussion about Broadband and FRIACO caused a certain panic in less-experienced users. They think using the Internet is expensive and REALLY slow. It is for Power users, but not for the person who wants to send an E-Mail every now and then or occassionally book a Ryanair flight. I am digressing here, (and I am probably inviting another flame war), but in my opinion FRIACO is not necessary for the low-profile Internet user. It is only something for Power Users (who don't want FRIACO anymore, but something a lot faster). I see kids on the street typing SMS messages as if there would be no tomorrow. People are buying "Top-up" cards for their Pre-Paid mobiles like crazy. A Pre-Paid user pays (on Vodafone) up to 64 cent per minute!!!! And most Pre-Paid users don't even think about it! This would give you 64 minutes off-peak Internet access! BUT: Internet Access is perceived as expensive and it seems that a minute on the mobile is not seen like that!
I think Ardmore said it: FRIACO is NOT cheap for low-profile Internet users, it is expensive in comparison to dial-up. But the problem is that the public has a different perception.
[end digress]

5) After the user gets a bit more familiar with the Internet in general, he/she will look for a faster connection automatically. Now, the education has to introduce the differences whilel removing the technology hurdles. Who cares if Provider X is delivering the service over the air and Provider Y is delivering it over some (already available) copper pairs. The end user should not have to worry. Sell them "more channels" and they are happy to get the "dish" installed.

Someone used the high level of interest for information about Wireless ISPs on these boards as a proof that there is a high interest for broadband Internet access. This is a group of experts/gurus/freaks, naturally the interest is high. If it wouldn't be high here, the Wireless Operators would have no chance at all! But the low profile users will not be attracted by Wireless until they have used the Internet and know what to use it for.

Eircom has failed to promote Internet Access as a facility you HAVE to have. The stupid mouse won't convince anybody.

I know of (non-IT) trade fairs in other countries where they had Internet Corners, educating people about the use of the Internet. I know of free courses given by lobby groups about the use of the Internet. I know of schools inviting the parents to events where the advantages of the Internet where pointed out (and the dangers put in perspective). This is what we need in Ireland in the beginning.

Only when the Internet usage has reached the mass acceptance as it has in other countries, we can expect a mass request for the things (performance etc.) we freaks want.

IOFFL and everybody here can help in that educational process.

BTW: I do not agree that it is the government's role to promote the use of the Internet. It is the role of everybody who has a vested interest in education and personal improvement. Schools (private and public), universities, employers, FAS, IOFFL, Telcos should together with government and Enterprise Ireland and IDA work on this. I am aware that many of the mentioned organisations are fully or partialy financed by the government, but they all HAVE money. We have to stop demanding more millions and use the money that is there wisely. (My pet-hate is the waste for some of the Fiber Rings and I keep using Gweedore and Bandon as an example of the most ridiculous location for Fiber Rings. But the fiber rings would be an area where money could be taken away and diverted.)

Or should there be an Internet/Broadband day declared at a national level with the Dáil sitting for a session answering questions posed by various school pupils around the country over their school connections?

I would LOVE To be there and listen to the answers the TDs give to school pupils about Broadband. Apart from the fact that most TDs only care anyway about the school in their own backyard, their Internet awareness is appaling. Someone in the vincinity of Dermot Ahern told me recently, that Dermot Ahern is fully clued in and understands the issues well, he "even reads his e-mails himself and knows how to use the Internet". I thought: WOW, he's the man! But seriously, the civil servant who told me this was honestly amazed about it. Obviously most TDs do NOT know what to use the Internet for.

SkepticOne

Whilst agreeing with most of what Hornet has said, and that education is necessary, I believe that lack of basic flat rate has been one of the most damaging to internet usage (not just among the freaks). I believe that it (not lack of broadband) is the main reason that we in Ireland are lagging behind in internet usage compared to, say, the US. Note not penetration - there are plenty of people with PCs with a built in 56k modem and some sort of 'free' account.

Hard data is difficult to come by to support this, but I would maintain that people have been 'trained' financially to cut down their internet use to the extent that many only use it for essentials, for example, looking up match results, booking the occasional flight and email. Although they believe they have 'free' internet access, they are aware that if they spend any significant time reading articles, they will run up a large telephone bill.

They take this for granted and assume it is the only way. Nevertheless, when they are properly presented with flat-rate (not the abstract concept which they may well be skeptical of, but an actual product) they find will it attractive.

Unfortunately the main data supporting this (apart from the UK experience) is the broadband demand survey undertaken by MRBI last year which did not deal directly with flat rate dial-up. Nevertheless, certain things can be inferred from it.

Main points:

a) Pg 23 - main use of the internet is for information 48%. "quick and easy" - 8%.

b) Pg 29 - 37% fairly interested or greater in some form of unmetered package. Significantly a good proportion of these were potential internet users.

c) Pg 30 - Cost given as main point of attraction for unmetered packages for those interested.

It is important to remember here that this is in a country with no 'internet culture' to speak of and low internet usage overall and no advertising of flat rate, yet a signficant number are attracted to flat rate. I believe that with the intruduction of such services, advertising and the addition of word of mouth these figures can be improved upon. I would be very interested in a similar survey two years from the the introduction.

Quick remark about point a) above. I think this illustrates the difference between mobile phones and the internet. Mobile phones are 'quick and easy', the internet is for information. Comparisons between the two may be difficult for this reason.

As for pricing, none was gatherd for flat rate per se, however 40 euros (in line with the european average) seemed to be what people were prepared to pay for broadband. You would therefore have to go somewhat lower to attract people to flat rate. Obviously the lower the better. You still wouldn't get a lot of people who will never use the internet but you will get a significant minority and it will grow gradually over the course of a few years.

I'm not denying the importance of education, but I think that education in the current climate is very much an up-hill battle. I've always felt guilty about trying to get people to use the internet properly knowing that they will run up significant bills. Once you get rid of the clock-watching, however, everything changes. Then not only will external education become more valueable, but people will be more willing to learn themselves.

Unfortunately, people wanting flat rate won't in itself lead to flat rate. It has to be done through regulatory action. It depends on wholesale rates from the incumbent and there is no incentive for the incumbent to supply it. That is why IOFFL have had to lobby at that level, however once it is in place, a lot of the disincentive for the incumbent for providing broadband goes (this also depends on the price).

I've made certain leaps here, but I don't think it is unreasonable to say that internet usage (increased time spent on line by more people) will increase through flat rate dial-up and that out of this demand for broadband will increase.

It is interesting in that report as well that demand for broadband peaks at 40 euros which is now becoming the norm in Europe and elsewhere. There seems to be several times the demand at this level than at 60 euros.

Anyway that is why - without putting down education and awareness - 'supply' in one form or another remains the core issue for the moment.

El_MUERkO

II hear it from wireless operators who have reasonably priced offerings in residential areas but poor take up. Can this be just attributed to poor marketing on their side?

I understand operators like leap and irish broadband are small companies so they cant do massive marketing campaigns but I havent seen 1 pop up, one add or any form of marketing from them. I heard of both companies on this forum.

The last time I contacted either of them was before christmas, if they've made access to there products available in my area I havent heard about it.

I understand they are aiming for commercial rather than residential customers but I think everyones lossing out because of there underexposure (is that a word?).

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Hornet
I would LOVE To be there and listen to the answers the TDs give to school pupils about Broadband.

It would be an educational experience for one of these groups.

Boston

Originally posted by Ardmore
But you're making the mistake of thinking that FRIACO is going to get them using it more than they currently use it.

sorry but all evidence points to you being wrong. In every other country where a friaco product has been introduced internet use has increased dramtically. But anyway thats completely off topic.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Boston
sorry but all evidence points to you being wrong. In every other country where a friaco product has been introduced internet use has increased dramtically.

That isn't evidence pointing to me being wrong, it's simply information about other markets. All of that information comes from a time when internet access was growing everywhere anyway. Internet access grew during the same time here, even without FRIACO.

We already have what is effectively "off-peak" FRIACO, with the UTV €30 for 150 hours offer. Has it made a difference to the Home user? Is there anyone buying it who isn't already spending more than €30/month with Eircom?

The internet isn't new and shiny for most people any more, and the only people queing up for FRIACO are the people who already spend more than €30 a month on dialup access. And anyone currently spending an extra €19 a month for "hi-price", as well as call charges, will be falling over themselves to drop dialup altogether in favour of a single line with ADSL for €54, as soon as it's an option for them.

I know people in other countries who pay the equivalent of €25 a month for flat rate internet access. The only people that I know in Ireland that are interested are those who are already paying more than that. Their usage may well increase with a flat rate package, but the usage of people who don't think they spend much now won't be impacted. So our "average hours" numbers may well increase, but internet usage won't become more widespread. (In fact, if people manage to get the notion that you can't get on the internet without paying €25 a month, FRIACO may actually have a negative impact. Stranger things have happened in this country!).

It's too late for FRIACO to impact the "culture" of internet usage in Ireland. The only impact will be on the finances of Eircom, and existing "heavy" users. (Where "heavy" doesn't mean what you mean by "heavy" )

Boston

Originally posted by Ardmore
That isn't evidence pointing to me being wrong, it's simply information about other markets. All of that information comes from a time when internet access was growing everywhere anyway. Internet access grew during the same time here, even without FRIACO.

We already have what is effectively "off-peak" FRIACO, with the UTV €30 for 150 hours offer. Has it made a difference to the Home user? Is there anyone buying it who isn't already spending more than €30/month with Eircom?

The internet isn't new and shiny for most people any more, and the only people queing up for FRIACO are the people who already spend more than €30 a month on dialup access. And anyone currently spending an extra €19 a month for "hi-price", as well as call charges, will be falling over themselves to drop dialup altogether in favour of a single line with ADSL for €54, as soon as it's an option for them.

I know people in other countries who pay the equivalent of €25 a month for flat rate internet access. The only people that I know in Ireland that are interested are those who are already paying more than that. Their usage may well increase with a flat rate package, but the usage of people who don't think they spend much now won't be impacted. So our "average hours" numbers may well increase, but internet usage won't become more widespread. (In fact, if people manage to get the notion that you can't get on the internet without paying €25 a month, FRIACO may actually have a negative impact. Stranger things have happened in this country!).

It's too late for FRIACO to impact the "culture" of internet usage in Ireland. The only impact will be on the finances of Eircom, and existing "heavy" users. (Where "heavy" doesn't mean what you mean by "heavy" )

Find it hard to locate where you disagreeing with me, but anyway, i'm not saying use will be mroe widespread, (thought i know it will be) is saying use will definitely be more concintrated. People who get friaco will use the net much more, fact not fiction. I know of several shools in me locaity where the internet is limited to a single pc for no other reason then to kep costs down. To believe hat there isn't an underlining demand for these services just doesn't wash, and sound more liek an eircom rep to me.

spongebob

Originally posted by Boston
I know of several shools in me locaity where the internet is limited to a single pc for no other reason then to kep costs down

FRIACO will have an immediate and significant impact on usage during peak hours. Schools and Small Biznisses will relax their restrictions immediately. The modem contention ratio will be severly tested on the first monday in September I can safely say.

ISP's in Ireland can get away with ratios as high as 15-20 modems per 'user ' . With FRIACO this will drop but there may be sufficient daytime modems anyway.

Off peak it will have a lesser impact I think...in the short term.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Boston
Find it hard to locate where you disagreeing with me, but anyway, i'm not saying use will be mroe widespread, (thought i know it will be) is saying use will definitely be more concintrated.

You were the one who said that FRIACO would encourage people who don't use the net much to use it more, thus building a market for broadband. Now you're saying that the main benefits will be for those who already use the 'net quite a lot.

People who get friaco will use the net much more, fact not fiction.

And (at the currently mooted €30/month) the only people who will get FRIACO are those who already consider themselves "regular" users.

I know of several shools in me locaity where the internet is limited to a single pc for no other reason then to kep costs down.

And they'll still limit it to a single PC, even with FRIACO. If Eircom had any sense, every school and library in range of an upgraded echange would have been given a free ADSL connection on day one. But half the schools would have turned it down!

To believe hat there isn't an underlining demand for these services just doesn't wash, and sound more liek an eircom rep to me.

To believe that there is an underlying demand from people who won't even spend €10 a month now is wishful thinking at best. The only underlying demand for FRIACO is for people who are currently spending a lot of time (and therefor money) on the net. These people would already be using broadband, if it was available.

Which gets us back to where we started. FRIACO at €30/month won't build a market for broadband at €50/month. (FRIACO at €10 or even €15 maybe, but that's not going to happen).

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Muck
Off peak it will have a lesser impact I think...in the short term.

If they are clever, they will have a specific off-peak package to cater for people who only access the net off-peak.

spongebob

Originally posted by Ardmore

Which gets us back to where we started. FRIACO at €30/month won't build a market for broadband at €50/month. (FRIACO at €10 or even €15 maybe, but that's not going to happen).

Not quite . The 8% rise in Line Rental for Everybody in the country will play into the hands of Comreg when it comes to the setting of USO obligations.

The highest line rental (by far) in Europe is in essence a Universal Service Obligation on the customer. The regulator ...armed with the efficient operator comparison along with the principle of accounting separation......can impose the Mother of all USO's on the Carrier that pulls in by far the most money amongst its peers for the maintenance of this network.

Essentially Eircom can now be forced to upgrade its network because it OBVIOUSLY has the money to do so.

Their timing was really really off when they tried to slither that one out quietly. They pumped their LRII (Long Run Incremental Income) base up to far and too soon and with no demonstrable cause.

It appears that the Eircom Board did not give the management room to manoever and forced their hand on the Line Rental rise. The Americans assumed that Comreg would be as amiable about this as the FCC has recently been but the Board, being largely US based, don't really understand the USO directive.

Interesting times, there are 2 more price rise packages in the pipeline this year.

M

Ardmore

Originally posted by Muck
The highest line rental (by far) in Europe is in essence a Universal Service Obligation on the customer. The regulator ...armed with the efficient operator comparison along with the principle of accounting separation......can impose the Mother of all USO's on the Carrier that pulls in by far the most money amongst its peers for the maintenance of this network.

Just as a matter of interest, how will this impact the whole notion of LLU? What happens to line rental when a line is unbundled?

spongebob

interesting Q.

Eircom get less money than normal becaue their exchange is taken out of the network price equation.

so a normal 16.20 ex vat (now) becomes around 8 I think. Page 6 of This Here should tell ya

eircom Currently bill it and pass the cut on to the alt.carrier

unified billing, due this year, will reverse this. alt.carrier will bill you the lot and pass it back, will also apply in CPS AFAIR

naturally they will seek an 8% increase in this component and will have to justify it with their dodgy figures, Comreg were not impressed with their costings in the FRIACO directive negotiations, remember

M

DonegalMan

I think we are missing a significant issue raised by David’s original questions.

Users of this forum are already ‘switched on’ to using the Internet in general and the advantages of Broadband in particular, but what percentage of the total population do they account for? Certainly less than 1%

In order to stimulate enough interest in Broadband to make it financially viable for the Telco’s, there needs to be a massive awareness campaign.

Potential customers for Broadband can be divided into two broad groups – business and residential.

As far as residential goes, I think it is much lack of awareness as concerns about price – how many ‘ordinary’ users even know what a cap is, apart from something you wear? There is little IMO that IOFFL can really do in this area, it is mainly a case of PR campaigns by the Telco’s – this is exactly what is happening in the UK with the high level of TV advertising going on.

In regard to business, though, I think there is something we can contribute. One area where I have been a bit disappointed with IOFFL’s success to date has been our lack of impact on organisations representing SME’s – SFA, Chamber of Commerce, etc.

Getting businesses turned onto the advantages of Broadband is a matter of education, showing them what Broadband can do for their business. For example, the guy (can’t remember his name) from SFA who was originally quite hostile to IOFFL changed his mind a bit when David took him through what I am trying to achieve in my own business and the obstacles I am finding.

One idea I suggested some time ago was a ‘travelling workshop’ organised by IOFFL, perhaps in co-operation with one of the other organisations, with demonstrations of what Broadband can do for business. This could also be an opportunity for some of our members to demonstrate their skills.

Worth following up?

Martin Harran

Dangger

Worth following up?

Absolutely. We have been aware of the opportunity with getting businesses more up to speed and on board. Recently we have focused our energies on attending a few conferences around the country getting ourselves known amongst business groups.

We attended a conference in Atlone titled bridging the digital divide in rural areas, for these reasons. Comhar Leader na hEireann and www.blackwater-resources.com were the organisers. I was honestly surprised at the high turn out and level of concern amongst the businesses who attended. It was of great vale for IOFFL to attend and show that we are committed to the cause but need their support in the matter.

Two interesting case studies were presented at the conference. One fro Donnie Morrison, of who runs
Work Global Advisory Services , and Chris McDonagh of Tele Arainn Teoranta on Arranmore Island.

Work Global has put the Outer Hebrides on the map as a leader in e-working and as an outsourcing location for customer contact centres. It based on Harris Island the home of Harris tweed on the Scottish Isles off the West coast of Scotland. From their own site, "the Outer Hebrides are fast developing into one of the best 'connected' real and virtual worker communities in Europe. A multi-million pound investment programme has brought our digital infrastructure to a very high standard and the islands now boast an enabling technology far superior to many areas. ".

Work Global is successful and expanding. They can operate large size call centre operations using their broadband infrastructire on the island. Tele Arainn Teoranta on the other hand do not have the capacity they require and are being hindered in their development. They could equal the success of Work Global, but as of yet they simply cannot get the capacity they require to operate large seat call centres. Quite simply if they had broadband they could create jobs right away. 10 jobs on Arranmore is qual to 1.4% of the population. They are currently using ISDN, they need broadband.

They finished their talk with eh simple message - "Give us the services. We will create the jobs"

The workshop idea is a good one, but something I feel we would need to go at in conjunction with one of more of the business organisations. Hopefully with our work to date, we have a good enough platform to work towards such a project.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by DonegalMan
Getting businesses turned onto the advantages of Broadband is a matter of education, showing them what Broadband can do for their business. For example, the guy (can’t remember his name) from SFA who was originally quite hostile to IOFFL changed his mind a bit when David took him through what I am trying to achieve in my own business and the obstacles I am finding.

Frank Delany. I think his point was that businesses wern't crying out for these services. I think, though, that there had been a demand for some time among businesses that was simply never addressed. Unfortunately broadband is a term used in Ireland for all sorts of things. While correct, technically, in most of the world it has come to mean services like DSL and cable internet. We are still using it in an older more general sense.

Mary O Rourke announced in, I think, 1998 that the national broadband network was being extended to Donegal - yet there is no 'broadband' in this other sense in that county, just a load of fibre in the ground.

There's a whole lot of education to be done on so many levels!

Boston

Originally posted by Ardmore
Now you're saying that the main benefits will be for those who already use the 'net quite a lot.

No, I always said the main benefit would come from people who have the internet and don't use it allot now, simply because it costs to much, every pc sold in Ireland (by big producers) now comes intraweb ready, with a free cd for eircom or what ever and a 56k modem. Most people only use it to check for very specific things, that would change with friaco, its generally excepted that friaco is a major stepping stone towards broadband, in fact I know of only one country where broadband was widely available before friaco, and that's here(available but not desired) there's a reason for that.

And (at the currently mooted €30/month) the only people who will get FRIACO are those who already consider themselves "regular" users.

Your completely wrong. When I first got onto the internet I was approached with an offer of 1 penny per minute by gateway, I thought wow that's great. then I was told of esat no limits which was 18 pound a month I was delighted, now I had never used the net before and I knew that 18 euro for off peak access was a much better deal then 60 pence an hour. You whole argument is based on the idea that the only people who buy those 3 for the price of two offers or people who already consume at least two. The whole principal of equi marginal returns comes into play.

But half the schools would have turned it down!

what are you basing this on?

FRIACO at €30/month won't build a market for broadband at €50/month. (FRIACO at €10 or even €15 maybe, but that's not going to happen).

Your last point was also muck, for some reason your talking about the principal of consumer surplus.

This point here is,I dare say pointless, no friaco service will build demand for broadband at 50 euro. I would even have to think twice about that. But at friaco service that is 15 euro is more likely to reduce the demand for a 50euro product, rather then the other way around. As friaco is a close substitute of broadband. This is all very basic economic theory here. I don't know

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Boston
Your last point was also muck, for some reason your talking about the principal of consumer surplus.

Hey, let Muck speak for himself.

spongebob

1. Eircom are an efficient operator, they keep telling us that. I take them at their word.

2. In a fit of rational behaviour and efficiency they have impelmented the highest line rental in Europe . 150% of the median from Paddys day . €21.15

3. As we will be paying far mor than the median or average we will (rationally of course) get a network that is 150% better than the european median.

4. Thanks to the wisdom Eircom have shown, 150% more resources may be devoted to the network than in more backward countries such as Sweden or Finland who charge slightly under the Median for their lines with a far lower population density than ourselves. We know that the underinvestment in te netwrok in Sweden and Finland has led to a shockingly low level of Broadband penetration because their underinvested network cannot cope with it.

5. Eircom have therefore put in place the final cog that was needed in the Long Run Incremental Investment that underpins the Universal Service obligation in Ireland.

6. They have effectively told us, Now we have the money, we will remove all the rubbish that was put on our lines when we did not have the money. After all they are efficient and rational.

7. There is no doubt any more that the finances are there to support 56k speeds for all. Eircom knew it was coming because they read the self same European directive that we did.

Let me take this opportunity to congratulate Eircom on their far sightedness and on their committment to their customer base. Unlike their other retail operations , the money for the network is ring fenced and will remain within Ireland. It will be spent on Irish workers running copper. It will spin back to the government in VAT. It will benefit us rather than the Bankers and Tony O'Reilly(Bart) because the line rental does not contribute to the profit margin in Eircom.

It will also help them to re-enter the mobile market next year........

nahdoic

Lady: Do I detect a note of sarcasm?
Frink: (reading sarcasm detector) Are you kidding me, this baby's off the charts, mmhay!
CBG: Ooh, a sarcasm detector, well that's a REAL useful invention. (detector blows up)

OHP

Originally posted by Muck
Let me take this opportunity to congratulate Eircom on their far sightedness and on their committment to their customer base. Unlike their other retail operations , the money for the network is ring fenced and will remain within Ireland. It will be spent on Irish workers running copper. It will spin back to the government in VAT. It will benefit us rather than the Bankers and Tony O'Reilly(Bart) because the line rental does not contribute to the profit margin in Eircom.

It will also help them to re-enter the mobile market next year........

This cannot be for real? You mentioned the words Eircon and Congratulate in the same sentence?


OHP

Hornet

Originally posted by Boston
Most people only use it to check for very specific things, that would change with friaco, its generally excepted that friaco is a major stepping stone towards broadband, in fact I know of only one country where broadband was widely available before friaco, and that's here(available but not desired) there's a reason for that.

FRIACO _can_ be a stepping stone and definitely _is_ a stepping stone _for_power_users if available before Broadband is available. I have to agree fully with Ardmore (and disagree with you) who is in my opinion spot on about FRIACO for non-Internet users or low-level users.

You wrote "Broadband was widely available before FRIACO"? You can't be talking about Ireland!? Widely available? Do I miss the sarcasm?

But seriously, the country where Broadband was widely available and widely used before any FRIACO-like offering is (not was!!) Germany. There are currently more than 3 Million DSL users in Germany and there is NO FRIACO product available. In fact, T-Online charged call charges PLUS an "Internet usage fee" (per minute) in the beginnings of the Internet in Germany.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Hornet
I have to agree fully with Ardmore (and disagree with you) who is in my opinion spot on about FRIACO for non-Internet users or low-level users.

By the way, I should point out that I'm not in any way "anti-FRIACO". IOFFL exists because of FRIACO - the treatment of the pseudo FRIACO NoLimits product was the catalyst for the formation of IOFFL. And the introduction of real FRIACO is definitely something that IOFFL can and should take some credit for.

I just don't think that it will have a significant impact on "internet culture" (for want of a better term) in Ireland.