[UK] Anger over 1 gig cap ...... A DAY!!

crawler

IP Transit charges are falling all the time - which is the cheapest way to move data around the world - You can check the lowest prices for MB/Month type charges at BAND-X - www.band-x.com

I dont think Mb charges are the issue here for the ISPs , the issue is usage on segments of the HFC network.

Good arguements on both sides of this - I sit on the fence on this one - I have no problem with massive caps.

Dustaz

Originally posted by bk
What evidence is that? and so what is the point of the cap?

The evidence being that Eircom have not charged anyone for exceeding this cap.

So far the point of the cap seems to be to force high-bandwith users into buying the higher spec'd products such as i-stream enhanced.

longword

Originally posted by crawler
IP Transit charges are falling all the time - which is the cheapest way to move data around the world - You can check the lowest prices for MB/Month type charges at BAND-X - www.band-x.com

I dont think Mb charges are the issue here for the ISPs , the issue is usage on segments of the HFC network.

Neat site, thanks for sharing.

The issue here, the 1GB/day cap that NTL have imposed and the backlash against it, is at least partly about IP traffic costs. Assuming you've got a last-mile network that can cope with 100% use from every megabit customer. And assuming that network cost you nothing to build and maintain. And assuming it costs you nothing to transport data around the country to a central point like London from which can uplink, it still costs at least £85 per month in raw bulk bandwidth costs, excluding VAT and any margins, to supply just one 1Mbit customer. People complaining about a 1GB/day cap on a 1Mbit service for £30 ex VAT need a smack from a giant big Economics Cluebat.

How this pertains to us poor bandwidth starved Irish DSL customers is another matter. Just don't let caps surprise you.

crawler

Fair points Longword.....to make it worse the CM service in the UK has contention of about 24:1 on the ressie side so ratio planning is very fair....dont know what BT Openworld offer on ressie ADSL?

The point about caps is that there would be no caps if people used the service the way it was supposed to be used but who is to say what is actually "right" or "wrong".

It's all UK stuff anyway....sigh.

longword

Originally posted by crawler
the CM service in the UK has contention of about 24:1 on the ressie side so ratio planning is very fair....dont know what BT Openworld offer on ressie ADSL?

BT's residential service, and their wholesale service upon which 99.5% of British ADSL users depend, is 50:1. They also have a business service which offers 500 and 1000kbit speeds at a 20:1 ratio. This Business Plus service costs slightly more than Eircom's 24:1 I-Stream.

bk

Originally posted by longword
People complaining about a 1GB/day cap on a 1Mbit service for £30 ex VAT need a smack from a giant big Economics Cluebat.

Reading userfriendly.org, again aren't you supposed to be working

How this pertains to us poor bandwidth starved Irish DSL customers is another matter. Just don't let caps surprise you.

What is quiet interesting about NTL's cap is that it is quiet different from Eircom,
from NTL on TheReg

"Our objective is only to limit very frequent or persistent heavy network use that can impact other customers. Therefore we will ONLY contact customers who exceed the daily data limit for three or more days in any consecutive 14-day period.

"If you occasionally exceed your data limit, it will not be a problem. Remember our goal is to give freedom and easy usage to our customers. This rule ensures that you have peace of mind and that we are able to reduce the unfair prolonged usage by a small number."

NTL aren't going to charge you if you go over their very reasonable cap, they are going to cut you off or curtail your activity (only after you continually go over the cap and after a letter of warning - very fair). This is the complete opposite to Eircom, if you go over Eircoms cap they will not cut you off, they will just charge you more money.

This just shows the complete difference in attitude between Eircom and NTL. NTL are really interested in QoS and keeping the bandwidth hogs within reason, which I'm fully in favour of, Eircoms cap has nothing to do with QoS and everything to do with maintaining their per unit charging model, this is my problem with Eircoms cap.

I just want to dispell any myhts that the Eircom cap has anything to do with the cost of bandwidth or QoS, it has nothing to do with these quiet good reasons for a reasonable cap. I just want to make it quiet clear to everybody that the Eircom haven't reallty changed and are still playing their old game of riping off the Irish customer.

jd

Originally posted by bk
Reading userfriendly.org, again aren't you supposed to be working



What is quiet interesting about NTL's cap is that it is quiet different from Eircom,
from NTL on TheReg



NTL aren't going to charge you if you go over their very reasonable cap, they are going to cut you off or curtail your activity (only after you continually go over the cap and after a letter of warning - very fair). This is the complete opposite to Eircom, if you go over Eircoms cap they will not cut you off, they will just charge you more money.

AFAIk nothing has yet happened to anybody who has gone over the limit. I'd put a bet that that nothing will happen unless there is congestion on the backhaul. It's all just conjecture at the moment (both your opinion and mine)

bk

Originally posted by jd
AFAIk nothing has yet happened to anybody who has gone over the limit. I'd put a bet that that nothing will happen unless there is congestion on the backhaul. It's all just conjecture at the moment (both your opinion and mine)

Do you mean the Eircom cap?

I have heard from a very reliable source that the two reasons why the Eircom has applied the cap yet are:

1) The current iStream product is so expensive already and so few people have it, they haven't really been bothered.

2) Technical problems, Eircom have been having difficulty connecting their bandwidth monitoring software with their billing system and with a system to tell the user how much bandwidth they have used so far (this would be necessary to avoid disputes with users).

This is likely to change with the introdcution of the new product (1. it will now be worth there while with so many new users and 2. they have had a year to solve the technical issues).

Don't be surprised when you get hit with a large bill when you go over the cap with the new product.

Ardmore

Originally posted by bk
NTL aren't going to charge you if you go over their very reasonable cap, they are going to cut you off or curtail your activity (only after you continually go over the cap and after a letter of warning - very fair). This is the complete opposite to Eircom, if you go over Eircoms cap they will not cut you off, they will just charge you more money.

Eircom don't have a cap - they give you an "allowance" of bandwidth with the service. In other words, your monthly fee includes 3 (or 4) GB of Bandwidth "free", and after that, you have to pay for it.

This just shows the complete difference in attitude between Eircom and NTL. NTL are really interested in QoS and keeping the bandwidth hogs within reason, which I'm fully in favour of, Eircoms cap has nothing to do with QoS and everything to do with maintaining their per unit charging model, this is my problem with Eircoms cap.

There's just one tiny little flaw in your logic there, bk - Eircom haven't actually charged anyone for using more than they've paid for.

I just want to dispell any myhts that the Eircom cap has anything to do with the cost of bandwidth or QoS, it has nothing to do with these quiet good reasons for a reasonable cap.

You wouldn't have to dispel myths if you weren't making them up in the first place. Eircom haven't claimed that "the cap" has anything to do with the cost of bandwidth, or QoS, 1) because there is no cap, and 2) because Eircom hasn't made any claims about the issue one way or another. (Other people have given us their opinion, but you're claiming to tell us about Eircoms "attitude", not about other peoples opinions about eircoms attitude).

Ardmore

Originally posted by bk
Do you mean the Eircom cap?

I have heard from a very reliable source that the two reasons why the Eircom has applied the cap yet are:

1) The current iStream product is so expensive already and so few people have it, they haven't really been bothered.

In other words, it would cost more than it would generate.

2) Technical problems, Eircom have been having difficulty connecting their bandwidth monitoring software with their billing system and with a system to tell the user how much bandwidth they have used so far (this would be necessary to avoid disputes with users).

In other words, they same sort of technical inetptitude and incompetence that got us in this mess in the first place!

This is likely to change with the introdcution of the new product (1. it will now be worth there while with so many new users and 2. they have had a year to solve the technical issues).
Don't be surprised when you get hit with a large bill when you go over the cap with the new product.

And don't be surprised if you find that you never go over the cap anyway.

PiE

Originally posted by Ardmore
1) because there is no cap, and 2) because Eircom hasn't made any claims about the issue one way or another. (Other people have given us their opinion, but you're claiming to tell us about Eircoms "attitude", not about other peoples opinions about eircoms attitude).

1) There is a cap. They may call it an allowance, but I fail to see the difference.

2) We can only gauge eircom's "attitude" on the "attitude" they've had towards us for the past few years. And that'd pretty damn close to utter contempt. So forgive us for assuming the worst, they're a pretty crappy company.

Ardmore

Originally posted by PiE
1) There is a cap. They may call it an allowance, but I fail to see the difference.

I could explain it, but as you've already made your mind up, it would obviously be a waste of time. (But here's a hint - you can't have a "cap" and "per unit billing" at the same time, because, by definition, you can't exceed a cap).

2) We can only gauge eircom's "attitude" on the "attitude" they've had towards us for the past few years. And that'd pretty damn close to utter contempt. So forgive us for assuming the worst, they're a pretty crappy company.

Well, the upside of always assuming the worst is that most of your surpises will be pleasant ones.

Unless you're one of those people who's only happy when he has something to complain about........

By the way, does anyone know how long the eircom website has been down?

bricks

I've read the FAQ from the ntlhell web site and it sounds resonable.

http://www.nthellworld.com/article/?action=show&id=335

Moriarty

(Hey, ive gotta get some use out of it )

Dustaz

Grrr.

The constant capping argument is getting incredibly annoying.

We have made all these points and counter-points in a million different threads.

Like it or not, Eircom do not automatically charge people for exceeding their allowance so anyone claiming that its a purely fiscal trick is , excuse my french, talking through their arsè.

Its a potential fiscal trick allright, but if you were an alien who had landed from mars and were faced with this situation with no prior knowledge, you would probably come to the conclusion that eircom have very succesfully scared very heavy users away from the service.

If this all changes overnight and they start charging regularly, then we can all look at it in the changed light. Untill then, Id like to see more actual information such as bandwith costs etc etc than just conjecture (according to my reliable source, the bandwith meter in eircom was up and running a long time ago - i have no idea whether this is true or not).



Oh and mori , rofl

dahamsta

UK broadband users follow 'communist doctrine'

UK broadband users are following "communist doctrine" over fast Net access, according to a top exec at networking equipment vendor Juniper Networks.

In a statement supporting NTL's decision to cap its users, Juniper marketing director Richard Brandon claims ISPs the world over must be "thanking NTL for taking a stand against broadband 'democracy'".

He reckons ISPs must move away from the "communist doctrine" that means that users get the same capacity irrespective of the level of service they demand. Instead, he maintains that pay-as-you-go Net access is the way forward.

[...]

Of course, I agree with Brandon's basic argument, but I think he would have been better off keeping his head down, his trap shut and his brain in gear. The Register has already put the "communist doctrine" idiocy in quotation marks for our benefit, but I doubt it will be long before people starting picking at other niggles in the statement. Like "20 per cent of a broadband network's subscribers are typically using 50 per cent of the network's valuable capacity", which I've heard repeated so many times with so many different percentages and numbers - last week someone here quoted 90/10, which I meant to flame at the time - that I frankly doubt I'll ever believe a statement like it again. And how long will it be before someone asks Brandon to let us in on how much Juniper kit NTL buys every year, and how much they threatened to take off him unless he embarassed himself with this, uh, capitalist doctrine?

What's that word again? Ah yes... muppet.

adam

Ardmore

Originally posted by dahamsta
last week someone here quoted 90/10, which I meant to flame at the time

The 90/10 ratio came from Karl Jeacles article. If anyone knows about eircoms ADSL trial, he does.

Lenny

But has NTL implanted this yet?
as in has my limit started yet?

dahamsta

The 90/10 ratio came from Karl Jeacles article. If anyone knows about eircoms ADSL trial, he does.

Well, I've talked to people involved in all stages of DSL development and implementation, right from conception at the DSL Forum through to the bean counters shifting abacus beads, and although it can't be argued that there's a differential - which I wasn't anyway - I get different figures from each and every one of them. And now I get another set from yerfella above. Who am I supposed to believe? This is my point.

adam

Dustaz

Originally posted by Lenny
But has NTL implanted this yet?
as in has my limit started yet?

Did the big [UK] in the title not give you a clue?

Shinji

It applies to Irish NTL users as well, since they're covered by the same AUP. I guess the original poster didn't think it was worth including "(and Ireland)" in the title since there are only six people on NTL cablemodems in Ireland anyway.

longword

Originally posted by Shinji
I guess the original poster didn't think it was worth including "(and Ireland)" in the title since there are only six people on NTL cablemodems in Ireland anyway.

I hear it's up to an even dozen now.

Lenny

Thanks Shinji,
I think I'll download the 3 cds of linux tomorrow to see if it is..

Dustaz

Originally posted by Shinji
It applies to Irish NTL users as well, since they're covered by the same AUP. I guess the original poster didn't think it was worth including "(and Ireland)" in the title since there are only six people on NTL cablemodems in Ireland anyway.

Afraid not rob

ntlIreland are a seperate entity in terms of AUP and Broadband access.

This cap does not apply to Ireland. A quick call to them confirms this.

maxheadroom

Originally posted by Dustaz
A quick call to them confirms this.

1. When has anyone ever been able to make a quick call to ntl?
2. I don't have a lot of faith in their call-center staff - but an email to someone in the company might be something I'll pursue when I get home

dahamsta

Legal action mulled over NTL BB cap

Angry NTL customers are considering legal action over the cableco's decision to cap its broadband service.

The Register understands that lawyers are currently examining the possibilities of setting up a "group action" against the cableco.

The fact that a legal team is mulling court action shows the depth of feeling among customers and is a sure sign that the row over the 1 Gig/day capping is unlikely to fade away quietly.

[...]

Señor Juárez

(edited - see here

Shinji

This cap does not apply to Ireland. A quick call to them confirms this.

Hrm, I'll take your word for it - but I should point out that NTL's helldesk staff in the UK are still denying all knowledge of a cap most of the time.

dahamsta

Net awards targeted as NTL cap row enters another week

Angry NTL users are looking to hijack this week's Internet industry awards in London to protest about the cableco's decision to cap its broadband service.

E-minister Stephen Timms will be among 360 industry bigwigs attending the lavish event - dubbed the UK's "Internet Oscars" - at a swish London hotel on Thursday.

Acknowledging that this week's event might be targeted a spokesman for the Internet Service Providers' Association (ISPA) told The Register: "Everyone has the right to protest."

Those behind the direct action are hoping that a demo outside the event will help raise public awareness while causing maximum embarrassment to the cableco.

Users had hoped that a wave of protests planned for Valentine's Day would help make NTL reconsider its decision to cap broadband use to 1Gb a day. At this stage, it's still not known whether the protests - including the threat of mass disconnections from the service - materialised to any great degree.

An online petition calling for NTL to overturn the cap has so far notched up more than 2,700 signatures. ®