Seminar Q&A - Second Guessing

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 10:19am #1

Hats off to the crew - I think we may not see the likes of such a gathering again for a long time..

With that in mind and to maximize the effectiveness of the Q&A, could we do a bit of exploring the possible answers to the questions in advance..

Is there any obvious contradiction between the responses to date from the minister, ODTR, Eircom and Esat?

If we go in heavy on the pricing for ADSL, and they say well "nothing launched yet, so can't comment on that.." .. then what? Could all the questions come down to just 'wait and see' answers..?

Is there any chance of any of the parties doing anything other than just stating their existing positions that we are already aware of? If so, how will that happen? Is there any such commitments/advances that we really want to see?

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 12:46pm

One thing I think Eircom have side-stepped is the issue of ADSL pricing. During the meeting, Eircom said that pricing would be down to the ISPs. They left out the fact that the ISPs pricing would largely be dictated by Eircom's wholesale prices.

Eircom did say that whatever they charged Eircom.net they would have to charge other ISPs.

This does not address the issue at all. It has been used several times and a lot of the press seem to have been taken in by this statement.

It is important to remember that Eircom.net is a subsidiary of Eircom and so agreements between the two "separate" companies are meaningless. From Eircom head-office point of view, it makes little difference how the charges are structured.

What is important is the wholesale rate that Eircom is willing to supply genuinely separate ISPs.

So Eircom saying that whatever they charged themselves they would have to charge other ISPs has no meaning. If I charge myself £100 for a mars bar, I lose nothing since I am simply handing money from one hand to the other.

It is down to the ODTR to independently assess Eircom's wholesale rate based on that of an "efficient European operator" operating in a competitive environment.

These comments are prompted by rumors in the press that Eircom were going to charge themselves £100 per month for wholesale. I hope they lead to some probing questions at the meeting.

I realise that a strategy of IrelandOffline is to get the services introduced first and then allow prices to come down through competition, but by setting a high wholesale price, Eircom have the oportunity to stifle competition and raise the floor for any possible retail offering.

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 2:28pm

Yup.. Eircom can effectively dictate what it costs to provide ADSL services, for the whole industry. A high price may be more suitable to them if they don't really want ADSL to 'take off'.

The problem is, whatever number they come up with, unless we know what it really costs, how can we contradict it? Is Ireland really a special case in terms of costs? Does the ODTR really know (or is even entitled to) what Eircom's costs actually are.

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 3:07pm

Originally posted by Skeptic1:
One thing I think Eircom have side-stepped is the issue of ADSL pricing. During the meeting, Eircom said that pricing would be down to the ISPs.

They didn't really 'sidestep' it - they just stated that the prices were being submitted to ODTR and would be public soon thereafter.

They left out the fact that the ISPs pricing would largely be dictated by Eircom's wholesale prices.

As a rule of thumb, I would expect retail price to be wholesale price + 50-60%. For example, BT in the UK charges wholesale FRIACO at something like £9-£10 and ISP's charge £14-£15; I'm not sure about ADSL but I think it's similar formula

Eircom did say that whatever they charged Eircom.net they would have to charge other ISPs...It is important to remember that Eircom.net is a subsidiary of Eircom and so agreements between the two "separate" companies are meaningless

I think there is a little confusion here - Eircom can't have any specific agreement with Eircom.net - they must have a single wholesale rate that applies to all ISP's

It is down to the ODTR to independently assess Eircom's wholesale rate based on that of an "efficient European operator" operating in a competitive environment.

Exactly - as the ODTR did with LLU prices.

These comments are prompted by rumors in the press that Eircom were going to charge themselves £100 per month for wholesale.

Bear in mind that these are 'rumours' - we've done our own little bit of discreet checking on this and think that the Irish Times got this wrong.

I hope they lead to some probing questions at the meeting.

Someone needs to submit the right question(s)

I realise that a strategy of IrelandOffline is to get the services introduced first and then allow prices to come down through competition

This is not a defined strategy as such. All we have said so far is that the feedback from members is that cost is not the be-all and end-all - most users are prepared to pay higher than UK rates to get the services. Also, there has been a fairly broad consensus on this forum that we should not get *too* hung up on prices that are not yet announced.

Martin

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 3:13pm

Originally posted by Fergus:
Does the ODTR really know (or is even entitled to) what Eircom's costs actually are.

I don't know exactly how this works but the onus is on Eircom to justify any proposed charge to the ODTR.

In the case of LLU, the ODTR didn't accept Eircom's justification of charges and imposed a lower one.

I think that prices is one area where ODTR has a lot of power and is not afraid to use them.

If anything, I would worry a little bit that ODTR goes too far on this and imposes a price that is too low to make it viable for Eircom. That BTW is a personal opinion and not necessarily an IOFFL one.

Martin

[This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 19-08-2001).]

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 3:28pm

Originally posted by o_donnel_abu:
I don't know exactly how this works but the onus is on Eircom to justify any proposed charge to the ODTR.

I wish this process was a bit more out in the open. It also seems to be about the most inefficient and slow way of doing it. I mean, Eircom take forever to come up with an LLU price. ODTR decides it should be a lot less. Eircom have no choice but to stick to their guns and claim they can't operate at the ODTR price. Off to the courts. No service. Public none the wiser as to the truth of the matter. More delays.

Really hope this isn't going to happen again with the DSL bitstream unbundling.

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 3:57pm

I assume there hasn't been anything heard back from the dept/odtr/esat since the meetings with them.. there was a number of issues they were looking into.

What happens if all the operators decide it's not worth it, and we're stuck with no broadband or flat rate? It seems that a lot of the responses from Eircom to date seem to point to a lack of commercial viability. How do you argue with this.

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 4:22pm

Originally posted by Fergus:
I assume there hasn't been anything heard back from the dept/odtr/esat since the meetings with them.. there was a number of issues they were looking into.

Not really - maybe they're keeping it all for seminar

Martin

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 4:50pm

Well I hope some advancement of the situation comes of it.. Hope it's not just a lot of deferring answers until after DSL launch, LLU court case, etc..

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 5:01pm

I have serious problems with the idea that ISPs need to negiotiate with Eircom for something that is supposed to be supplied on the basis of cost.

What would have happened in the case of LLU if Eircom had priced access to it's exchanges even higher and all OLOs decided to call it a day?

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 5:06pm

Originally posted by Skeptic1:
I have serious problems with the idea that ISPs need to negiotiate with Eircom for something that is supposed to be supplied on the basis of cost.

Surely the ODTR on behalf of the consumer is able to audit Eircom or whoever and determine the cost once and for all. Just picking an EU average figure is obviously open to criticism of not being relevant to Ireland.

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 5:27pm

Originally posted by Fergus:
Surely the ODTR on behalf of the consumer is able to audit Eircom or whoever and determine the cost once and for all.

This is the case only after negotiations have broken down, as I understand it.

Just picking an EU average figure is obviously open to criticism of not being relevant to Ireland.

I don't think this is what happened. After Eircom's costs were assessed, it turned out that the price imposed on them happened to be within the European average.

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 6:36pm

Will be interesting to see how Eircom can justify the figure they came up with then

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 6:58pm

Just had a look at ODTR D/08. Right.. so, if eircom's LLU costs are European average, you wouldn't expect other costs to be wildly different... so is it reasonable to expect flat-rate internet services as prices similar to other EU countries?

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 8:39pm

Originally posted by o_donnel_abu:
I don't know exactly how this works but the onus is on Eircom to justify any proposed charge to the ODTR.

In the case of LLU, the ODTR didn't accept Eircom's justification of charges and imposed a lower one.

They did accept the charges initially when LLU became a reality in Ireland on 31 December 2000 even though the charges were so high that most of the OLOs walked away.

I think that prices is one area where ODTR has a lot of power and is not afraid to use them.

If anything, I would worry a little bit that ODTR goes too far on this and imposes a price that is too low to make it viable for Eircom. That BTW is a personal opinion and not necessarily an IOFFL one.

LLU, for example, is disastrous for Eircom commercially. It involves allowing competitors access to Eircom's premises, lines and equipment so that the competitors can more effectively compete against Eircom and poach customers.

To adequately compensate Eircom for this intrusion would involve an amount of money far greater than even Eircom were asking. Without LLU, the OLOs would have to build functionally equivalent infrastructure at enormous cost.

However, luckily for us, it is not a matter of commercial viability. It is a matter of European law. There should be no arguing with Eircom about this. The LLU charges should be worked out using the techniques of cost accounting.

I believe the same points apply to bitstream. In order to work out what it would cost Eircom to provide wholesale ADSL, you could analyse, say Germany's ADSL product. Look at each of the steps in providing the service and then adjust for any factors specific to Ireland (e.g. cheaper labour costs). If Eircom decide to organise themselves differently so that the costs are higher then that should be their problem not ours.

Is this unfair? I don't think so. I am not singling out Eircom here specifically. No company should have total control over such a vast amount of former national infrastructure. LLU is about sharing an aspect of this infrastructure with others.

[This message has been edited by Skeptic1 (edited 19-08-2001).]

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 9:44pm

It's almost pointless asking any questions of Eircom. Any change would seem to be bad news for them. To quote from the Eircom meeting:

"FRIACO could be introduced by the end of 2001, if two conditions are met: if it is a commercially viable business case for Eircom; and if the very significant operational and network capacity issues are resolved."

They also mentioned not developing a data network because of regulations forcing them to provide internet over the voice network. You would think the data network would be the way to address the capacity issue. I'd also like to know how (if) Eircom see FRIACO being commercially viable for them..

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 10:28pm

Please don't take offence folks, but is it a good idea to air your questions here? Hasn't it been said that the "powers that be" keep a close eye on these boards? Im as keen as the next person to see these questions answered but isn't it a case of forewarned is forearmed??

~Z~

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 10:45pm

Agh.. as Martin said we wash our laundry in public. I don't think there's any big secret anyway. And we're not trying to pull a fast one at this seminar.

Mind you, I was thinking earlier what it must be like to have to field questions at something like this. I guess if you really don't want to say anything much or drop any clangers, you can just weather the storm and play the clock.. You can't force people to say things they don't want to say. All I can think is that that in itself says something.

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 11:31pm

Originally posted by Fergus:
It's almost pointless asking any questions of Eircom. Any change would seem to be bad news for them. To quote from the Eircom meeting:

"FRIACO could be introduced by the end of 2001, if two conditions are met: if it is a commercially viable business case for Eircom; and if the very significant operational and network capacity issues are resolved."

They also mentioned not developing a data network because of regulations forcing them to provide internet over the voice network. You would think the data network would be the way to address the capacity issue. I'd also like to know how (if) Eircom see FRIACO being commercially viable for them..

I can't see any real reason why Eircom can't introduce FRIACO apart from sheer f****ing greed. They make tons of money in profit as it is and the reason they don't want to introduce FRIACO or even their own flat-rate service is because they know they will not make as much money as they currently do from other teleco's or from charging for each call.

This really ****es me off because, yes, they won't be making as much money as they do at the moment but they will still be taking in cash from the other teleco's and customers on a flat-rate service. This indicates that Eircom just don't give a damn about what the general public want and are only interested in doing anything they can to maximise their own profits. Have none of these companies ever heard of the sayings, "The customer is always right" or, "The customer comes first?" Obviously not.

Eircom, Esat, Chorus, ODTR, everyone, please, for once, show that you do actually care and respect the business of the average customer and provide us with what we want for once.

LegacyUser · 19-08-2001 11:41pm

Originally posted by Fergus:
I don't think there's any big secret anyway. And we're not trying to pull a fast one at this seminar.

Exactly - we just want straight answers to questions. I don't think the general discussion is doing any harm - it shows how serious we users are and the issues that concern us - and the participants won't know the exact questions until they are asked at the seminar

I guess if you really don't want to say anything much or drop any clangers, you can just weather the storm and play the clock

There's been a slight change in the arrangements - I will now be chairing the Q&A session and believe me, I have a very low tolerance level for waffle

Martin

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 8:33am

Originally posted by o_donnel_abu:

I will now be chairing the Q&A session and believe me, I have a very low tolerance level for waffle

Martin

Hehehe.. yeah, there's a lot to be said for Donegal folk

But seriously, the best thing about this is the way all the parties are on the one stage. I'll go away seriously depressed from this if they all appear to be singing from the one hymn-sheet (apart from you of course Martin).. that surely will prove there's something wrong.

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 8:38am

Originally posted by aidan_dunne:
I can't see any real reason why Eircom can't introduce FRIACO apart from sheer f****ing greed

Well, as has been said, this isn't going to be a bash-Eircom session.

All I would ask if Eircom are not interested in catering to the Residential/SOHO DSL or flat-rate markets, that they would just call a spade a spade and say so, instead of all this "when conditions are met", "technical difficulties" stuff. I notice they are launching a bit 20m IP investment backed MPLS service in September too.. this further fuels my suspicion that they see ADSL as something worth selling to businesses only.

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 8:48am

Originally posted by Fergus:

All I would ask if Eircom are not interested in catering to the Residential/SOHO DSL or flat-rate markets, that they would just call a spade a spade and say so, instead of all this "when conditions are met", "technical difficulties" stuff.

I agree. The emphasis should be on precicely what they are going to do and when. The "when" bit is very important. This applies to all the speakers at the seminar.

I notice they are launching a bit 20m IP investment backed MPLS service in September too.. this further fuels my suspicion that they see ADSL as something worth selling to businesses only.

I think this is because ESAT are planning on taking up LLU and are targeting mainly the business leased line customers.

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 9:09am

If there is any chance, can we ask another important question to Eircom in the seminar ....

Can we ask them what DSL modem's they are going to use for their DSL service ?

I mean, if they use the basic DSL modem's, I CAN't GET DSL

If they use the advanced modem's they use in the UK (BT) then I probably will be able to get DSL ...... And from the area I live, there is a lot of people in the same boat as me.

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 9:18am

Originally posted by Skeptic1:

I notice they are launching a bit 20m IP investment backed MPLS service in September too.. this further fuels my suspicion that they see ADSL as something worth selling to businesses only.
I think this is because ESAT are planning on taking up LLU and are targeting mainly the business leased line customers.

Hehe. I somehow don't think that DSL and MPLS switched IP networks compete in the same market space (for those who don't know the difference, DSL is usually costs about 5% as much as pure IP network access...)

I mean, if they use the basic DSL modem's, I CAN't GET DSL

I'm going to take a guess that you're out of luck Ando. What BT is doing is not just about the modems. RADSL requires an upgraded DSLAM as well, and thus appears to be a fairly different service to the ADSL service that Eircom is trialling.

I'd start phoning the cable companies myself, if I were you. Maybe you'll be able to get Chorus' Powernet when it launches.

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 20-08-2001).]

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 20-08-2001).]

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 10:11am

Originally posted by hudson806:
Hehe. I somehow don't think that DSL and MPLS switched IP networks compete in the same market space (for those who don't know the difference, DSL is usually costs about 5% as much as pure IP network access...)

I heard that Esat were planning to offer some sort of SDSL service. Although my knowledge is limited, isn't it the case that services can be provided over SDSL that can compete in the leased line arena (at least the lower end)?

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 10:48am

Originally posted by ando:
If there is any chance, can we ask another important question to Eircom in the seminar ....

Can we ask them what DSL modem's they are going to use for their DSL service ?

I mean, if they use the basic DSL modem's, I CAN't GET DSL

If they use the advanced modem's they use in the UK (BT) then I probably will be able to get DSL ...... And from the area I live, there is a lot of people in the same boat as me.

pariel - USB Adaptor

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 10:51am

Originally posted by Skeptic1:
I heard that Esat were planning to offer some sort of SDSL service. Although my knowledge is limited, isn't it the case that services can be provided over SDSL that can compete in the leased line arena (at least the lower end)?

Yep. In fact, so can ADSL services - the technologies are basically identical apart from one or two minor tweaks to boost the upstream capacity.

The point, though, is that MPLS switched networks are most definitely a 'premium' product - cutting edge, very expensive to build and operate, and hence expensive to access. If you are paying that much to access the network, you might as well do it over something a little more ambitious than a DSL hookup..

pariel - USB Adaptor

His concern is that he lives too far away from the exchange, not that he doesn't have a USB port... Besides, I'm not sure that a 'pariel' - USB adapter would do the trick - as pariel ports don't provide power (I think)

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 20-08-2001).]

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 11:15am

Originally posted by hudson806:
The point, though, is that MPLS switched networks are most definitely a 'premium' product - cutting edge, very expensive to build and operate, and hence expensive to access.

This page describes MPLS being operated over Time Warner's "Road Runner" cable modem service.

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 11:20am

Originally posted by hudson806:
Yep. In fact, so can ADSL services - the technologies are basically identical apart from one or two minor tweaks to boost the upstream capacity.

The point, though, is that MPLS switched networks are most definitely a 'premium' product - cutting edge, very expensive to build and operate, and hence expensive to access. If you are paying that much to access the network, you might as well do it over something a little more ambitious than a DSL hookup..
B]

Well I hope so.. but can we rule out DSL being used as a way of hooking into this? Anyway.. it's just the similar launch date, and the fact that Eircom are able to find 20 mil to invest in new business service offerings, but nothing after years of apparent demand from the residential sector..

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 11:24am

This page describes MPLS being operated over Time Warner's "Road Runner" cable modem service.

True enough, but I don't think that Eircom is spending 20m Euro on a project like that...

Damn, it would be cool though.

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 11:25am

The more you think about it though, you would think the government should be taking the heat for the problems. What have their responses been like to date? There's been a lot of positive noises and interest.. but any substance? Should we be expecting more?

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 11:26am

Originally posted by hudson806:
Yep. In fact, so can ADSL services - the technologies are basically identical apart from one or two minor tweaks to boost the upstream capacity.

The point, though, is that MPLS switched networks are most definitely a 'premium' product - cutting edge, very expensive to build and operate, and hence expensive to access. If you are paying that much to access the network, you might as well do it over something a little more ambitious than a DSL hookup..

pariel - USB Adaptor


His concern is that he lives too far away from the exchange, not that he doesn't have a USB port... Besides, I'm not sure that a 'pariel' - USB adapter would do the trick - as pariel ports don't provide power (I think)

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 20-08-2001).]

yea i forgot about that, but there must be away to do it because ive seen them on sale, maybe the unit its self has a plug

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 12:59pm

so glad, would i be able to get adsl even though i live around 5/6 km away from my exchange by using this usb adapter you are talking about ?

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 1:12pm

Originally posted by ando:
so glad, would i be able to get adsl even though i live around 5/6 km away from my exchange by using this usb adapter you are talking about ?

Yeah - it comes with a 4.5km extension cable.

More seriously, Ando, you can forget about getting ADSL any time soon - the service Eircom are trialling appears to be bog-standard ADSL, not the RADSL variation that you need.

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 20-08-2001).]

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 1:59pm

Does anyone know what sort of consideration was given to the creating of a private local-loop monopoly at the time of the Eircom sell-off? I'll do some digging if I can find the time..

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 2:19pm

If i asked Eircom to install a new phone line, would it be possable they would connect me to a different exchange, cause I'm only 2/3km away from coolock exchange ?

Sorry for all the questions, just getting desperate for dsl

!!!

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 2:30pm

Maybe it's possible. Maybe you'll get a nice engineer who'll do some fiddling. But I find more often than not people I deal with in Eircom are pretty unhelpful when you try to talk about something technical, and either act dumb, treat you like you're from Mars or feed disinformation. Some doc recently mentioned that 40% of all traffic on the voice network was internet access (ODTR I think). With that sort of pressure on capacity, you'd think something like DSL would be a lot cheaper to deploy rather than costly expansion of the switched circuit network.

[This message has been edited by Fergus (edited 20-08-2001).]

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 2:50pm

Originally posted by ando:
If i asked Eircom to install a new phone line, would it be possable they would connect me to a different exchange, cause I'm only 2/3km away from coolock exchange ?

Sorry for all the questions, just getting desperate for dsl !!!

I don't know but a few years ago I asked them to switch me to a different exchange and they did but then it was possible to talk directly to engineering.

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 3:47pm

ok, thanks for the help lads, when dsl is launched (whenever that is) I'll try get an engineer to connect me to the coolock exchange

! but I'm still on the limit 2/3KM away ..... Bit iffy

!

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 3:47pm

I wonder will the Eircom ADSL price be released before the seminar. It's gonna have an impact on the seminar one way or the other.

If it is the 100+ wholesale as the rumour mill is currently suggesting, that pretty much puts paid to DSL for us lot for some time.. and I think Eircom already have kicked FRIACO into touch.

Anyone got any anti-depressants to spare?

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 4:36pm

The key, as I see it, lies in the vigorous enforcement of EU law with regard to LLU together with substantial grants for implementation of xDSL for OLOs and (lets not be discriminatory) Eircom. Special attention should be given to innovative longer range ADSL as well as provisioning rural exchanges.

I think the government may view financial support in a favourable way provided it leads to results. So far a lot of subsidy has gone to already monopolistic telcos and cable companies with predictable results. In my opinion, money needs to be spent to open the markets up rather than pump money into companies who already have total market share.

[This message has been edited by Skeptic1 (edited 20-08-2001).]

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 4:43pm

Originally posted by Skeptic1:
So far a lot of subsidy has gone to already monopolistic telcos and cable companies with predictable results

That's not good.. have you any examples?

I agree.. I think that we're just gonna have to put more emphasis on why widespread internet use by the population is required, and hope our (elected) govt will come up with something like the French situation or whatever.

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 5:23pm

Originally posted by Fergus:
That's not good.. have you any examples?

Unfortunately, I can't find any examples and so I am withdrawing my statement about money being pumped into telcos and cable companies.

I was pretty sure that chorus had received grant money but I can't find any reference to it. I was also convinced that money was available to NTL upon completion of its upgrade. Can't find any links at this time.

So I have to withdraw the statement for the moment.

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 6:12pm

Another corner questions seem to end up at is 'well, LLU is here so everyone's free to come in and provide their own service'. We gotta wonder how realistic a proposition LLU is for a third party, quite apart from the price. In the states there has been a lot of complaints from ISPs providing DSL that the incumbent operator has been pushing their own DSL service unfairly against them.

It's something that would put me off going the whole hog and renting the loops / exchange space / etc. You move in cos there's a market that Eircom isn't addressing. And then all of a sudden you find yourself competing with Eircom/ eircom.net's residential DSL service. And they've already got huge staff/engineering resource in place nationwide. In the US there's been reports of 3rd party 'tagged' (unbundled) lines at exchanges 'accidentally' being interfered with, leading to customer downtime/dissatisfaction.. and then lo-and-behold the incumbent's sales rep on the phone offering their DSL service 'from the professionals' etc etc..

For example: http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2486629,00.html

[This message has been edited by Fergus (edited 20-08-2001).]

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 7:18pm

Originally posted by Fergus:
That's not good.. have you any examples?

Eircom laid circa 40 miles of roadside pipe in West Sligo. I suspect, but haven't the proof, that it was subsidised.

Also seem to remember that Eircom pulled out of a number of Government contracts to lay fibre around the time of the Eircell sale.
Something was said about re-evaluating their stategic plans IIRC.

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 8:57pm

Esat mentioned they had submitted an SOR to Eircom.. do we actually know what this was for? Was it FRIACO? Do I remember Esat complaining recently about engineer escort/supervision charges?

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 9:13pm

Originally posted by Skeptic1:
Unfortunately, I can't find any examples

"Telecommunications company Chorus was today, 16th January 2001, awarded €21.5 million structural funds by the Minister for Public Enterprise, Mary O'Rourke, TD, following a competitive tender process. Chorus will apply this funding as part of a €72.7 million investment, developing 3 broadband projects in the South East, Border Midland West (BMW) and Kerry regions. The net Chorus contribution will be €51.2 million."

Is that the sort of thing you're talking about?

From: http://www.chorus.ie/press_releases.php3?prid=1

LegacyUser · 20-08-2001 11:10pm

"While the cost of Internet Access has been reduced significantly, we are still some way from Flat Rate Access. The provision of Flat Rate Access should be a priority in order to encourage use of the web by both business and the consumer."

Ivor Callely, TD
Chairman, Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business
5, May 1999

http://www.gov.ie/committees-99/c-enterprise/rep-ecommerce/default.htm

LegacyUser · 21-08-2001 7:43am

It's clear from searching the governemtn archives that huge amounts of effort and money are being expended on e-Government - putting all the departments online, Revenue returns online, etc.

At the same time, huge money goes into things like Global Crossing and e-Commerce, and getting every business to put itself online...

It seems stupid then that the other half of the equation - the citizens, the consumers (remember us?) - are left to fend for themselves with costly second-rate internet access. Clumsy dial-up access has to be a major detractor from the widespread uptake of the internet. And without true nationwide acceptance, over all socio-economic groups, I think we're going to see things like e-Government and small business e-commerce ventures becoming increasingly difficult to justify.

LegacyUser · 21-08-2001 9:00am

Originally posted by Fergus:
It's clear from searching the governemtn archives that huge amounts of effort and money are being expended on e-Government - putting all the departments online, Revenue returns online, etc.

At the same time, huge money goes into things like Global Crossing and e-Commerce, and getting every business to put itself online...

And yet Ireland is still an expensive country for web hosting. The government must be made to see the futility of subsidising supply in a market with little competition.

Seminar Q&A - Second Guessing

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