it doesn't look good for those ADSL prices

LegacyUser

they have been with the odtr since mid last week, what's the hold up, I had nightmares of an eircom press release along the lines of ADSL Delayed indefinitely due to regulatory disagreements.

LegacyUser

Its up to Eircom when they release their non-wholesale ADSL prices. I guess it would make good business sense not to release that information until the last few weeks before launch

LegacyUser

thats it, I've decided that if eircum even think about delaying adsl for another 6months or year down the road, I'm taking up that other satellite internet access from Beam or tiscali, I tell ya, I'll be mightly pi**ed off with eircum if they have yet more delays !

Deadline: october 1st ... !

(PS) sorry for going OT, but I'm just a bit frustrated !

LegacyUser

*october 1* september 28 was the confirmed launch date last i heard

LegacyUser

I know glad, but we north-siders will probably have to wait a bit longer than those 'south-siders' !! and I think eircon will be launching to the south side of dublin first !

LegacyUser

you would be right to, i perdict next years, one question though, this wholesale crap, will that be on all the exchanges that have adsl or will it be on only the first few eircon open with, im asking because i want to know if esat could provide adsl to me before eircon,

ando were actually lucky, we will see exactly what eircon and esat will be offering, and the QoS before they offer it to us,

LegacyUser

Doesn't seem to occur to Eircom or its legislators that the economy of the country (dependent as it is on SMEs) is closely linked to the speed and bandwidth of our telecoms infrastructure.

What's happening with xDSL is criminal.

LegacyUser

A post to an online forum about the price of DSL says:

---

I use Verizon, 39.00 month. But they just increased the price to 49.00 month! Got my modem free NIC card free and a PC Camera.

---

Looked up Verizon (assuming it was verizon.com) and got

http://www.verizon.com/about/index_av.html

dahamsta

Just two quickies:

1) It doesn't need to occur to Eircom. Much as I dislike them, they're a business and the economy doesn't apply to them, particularly when they retain a monopoly on fixed lines. The economy can take a nosedive - and it will unless the government take the finger out imho - but people will still need to use the telephone. What they *don't* seem to realise is that the Internet is a luxury for a large percentage of people, and those people will stop using it if they can't afford luxuries. And that amounts to 40% of Eircom's revenue at the moment. But that's a side issue. The primary thing that has failed to occur to Eircom is that they - i.e. the management and the board - are incompetent, and unable to run the business effectively. But it seems they don't really care, they just want to line their own pockets, and that seems to have been the target from the off. And the government knew that when they sold off the crown jewels.

2) Verizon are rubbish, have always been rubbish, and will continue to be rubbish until pigs fly and the moon turns into cheese and changes hue to aquamarine. Verizon are the Eircom of the US, and I pity *anyone* who's tied to them. And my business partner, who works out of Virginia, will testify to that quite strongly, since it took Verizon over three months to transfer a line between apartments, and tried to bill him for the time in between. Course, he's not the only one...

adam

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dahamsta:
Verizon are rubbish, have always been rubbish, and will continue to be rubbish until pigs fly and the moon turns into cheese and changes hue to aquamarine.</font>

Absolutely. In fact, thanks to Verizon, getting a decent DSL service in the States is often much more expensive than in Europe (Ireland excepted, obviously ). As Adam said, their service is basically unusable for anyone who relies on the Internet in any way.

The alternatives, though, are the CLECs (Like OLOs, but they only provide the DSL bit, not (usually) the ISP bit too.) They are absurdly expensive for home use though. A 384k SDSL circuit from Covad costs about 70-100USD/month, to which an ISP charge must be added as well. Service is usually great though - more leased line than DSL.

So if you're 'in-between' in the US (want decent but not amazing service) you're screwed...

LegacyUser

yes, but the US really is the place i wanna be, or california to be more specific.
For an afordable $500 a month you can have a 100MB Fibre Optic connection.
And thats pure fibre to the home.

..i wish

---

Ashley...if only

Ashley Lyn Cafagna

dahamsta

Personally, I'd prefer to stick with Europe and move to Sweden, which is pretty progressive on the telecommunications front. The price of booze would prohibit that though...

adam

LegacyUser

tax system is so high in sweden you cants by charged much for the next because you dont have much,
but its a nice country, with goverment takes tax and reinvests it in the country, not buying 2 million pound jets
but yea if you did move in europe to get broadband, sweden would be it, but i dear say you would probably miss home to much are you would have done it allready

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chernobyl:
For an afordable $500 a month you can have a 100MB Fibre Optic connection.
And thats pure fibre to the home.
</font>

What company is that? I don't know of one that offers a fibre 100mb solution in CA...

LegacyUser

competisys

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> High-Speed Internet Access - Direct-Fiber Broadband systems provide up to 100 Mbps of bandwidth.
</font>

and theres about 4 more companies, i never seen these guys before, but a quick browse of DSL Reports Forums and i found these guys.

---

Ashley...if only

Ashley Lyn Cafagna

[This message has been edited by chernobyl (edited 04-08-2001).]

LegacyUser

the best solution people is to go to uni, and live on campus.

i have a 10mbps line for 4 quid a month in Germany. ahh mz beautiful connection / and now I am stuck with slow webpage - even google loads a bit on the slow side... I forgotton this ****.

btw. in my experience on gnutella etc. german unis are the place to be - bandwidth wise.

oh, and about having a 100mb line - honestlz zou would never ever use it all up - i reckon 6mbps would be enough for anzbody

this is a bit of a dumb post, but i am suffering withdrawal szmptoms...

[stupid english kezboards...]

bye y'all.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gladiator:
*october 1* september 28 was the confirmed launch date last i heard </font>

Yes, the ADSL service is supposed to be rolled out commercially starting the end of September (whatever that actually means is anyone's guess).

I have heard from a number of reasonably good sources that as Eircom want ADSL to be considered a "Premium Service" and as such needs to be more expensive than ISDN that the monthly price to end users will be between £80 and £100.

LegacyUser

yea its fair to say we all knew eircon would look for that, but the odtr sets the prices not eircon,
im sure she doesn't few ADSL as a Premium Service, if she does she shouldn't be in the job, ask American in a big town/city what ADSL is, they will tell you its for home use,

I think its fair to say eircon haven't gotten everything their own way, other wise we would have the prices now, as they said in a interview with ioffl we would have them soon after they were settled.

I have to wonder will the odtr back down, its put up or shut up time now, will she take us into line with the rest of the eu, will she live up to the spin she spoken for so long, this is show time, the first time really decisions have to be made, she managed to avoid them so far, but she either forces eircon to introduce it at a fair prices, in which case she has been on the ball all this time and il personally send a bunch or roses to the odtr office in Dublin, or she will back down and show us once and for all she is in bed with eircon, no hiding behind a lack of power now,

or will we have a situation were nothing really changes, really, im so scared of this, a situation were eircon simple say **** you, *phoneline rental to high, **** you pay me* *internet access to dear, **** you pay me* sounds like a bad gangster movie, but lets face it that's what were dealing with,

sorry if im ranting here, it hasn't happened yet, maybe ntl will continue to upgrade when they realize they loosing all their clients to shy digital, and the only reason people use their backward service is for their even more backwards 56k weekend internet,

anyway im ranting again, I need sleep, please ignore above post

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gladiator:
I have to wonder will the odtr back down, its put up or shut up time now, </font>

Well she didn't back down on LLU, setting price at roughly one third of what Eircom wanted.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">il personally send a bunch or roses to the odtr office in Dublin, </font>

Be sure to get a photo taken so we can all enjoy it

Martin

LegacyUser

a come on interim prices, are no prices at all, only a totaly misguided mislead company would invest based on them, ala esat
and she didnt slap a must comply order on them untill august, if she had sooner we would have adsl sooner, it just so happens eircom has to start llu this month or the get fines, just before this they release they will offer adsl,

and just i cant remeber the rest of what i was about to say because its 3.40am

dahamsta

Well she didn't back down on LLU, setting price at roughly one third of what Eircom wanted.

Yeah, but it seems to me now that it was an empty, meaningless gesture. She said herself at the time that she was forced into doing it because Eircom were stalling - I'm paraphrasing obviously - but if that was the case she would/should have set a deadline, and a short one at that. How long ago was it though? Have we moved any closer to actual local loop unbundling (henceforth to be referred to as ALLU)? Perhaps we have and we're not being told, but should we really have to fight for transparency? As far as I'm concerned, we're still in the same situation we were on January 1 - there's no broadband or unmetered products available for the average punter or the small businessman. Eight months later and no progress. I've read all the posts telling me that the Regulator is pretty short on real regulatory powers, and once again, if that's the case, that's pretty sad, but I haven't heard the ODTR say it. I haven't seen the Regulator come to Ireland Offline and apologise for the fact that she hasn't been able to make changes. Personally, I'd be pretty embarrassed if I was the Regulator. The whole Office seems to be surplus to requirements when it comes to Internet affairs. It certainly hasn't made a difference to my surfing habits, except to restrict them. Or my rather frightening phone bills.

adam

PS. I know I must come across as pretty schizophrenic sometimes when I'm talking about the ODTR and the Regulator, but you can hardly blame me, now can you? The Office and the Regulator sometimes appear to be schizophrenic themselves, succeeding admirably in some areas, and failing dismally in others. It's just gets so frustrating at times, the whole war seems so futile. Particularly around invoicing time, that lovely day once a month when I have to give my money to a company I genuinely dislike with a passion, a company I wouldn't give the time of day to given the choice. Doesn't that sum it up, doesn't that prove that something is wrong here? In a democratic country driven largely by capitalism, should that be allowed to happen? And if I can see it with such vivid clarity, how come only a tiny few in government have stood up in our offices of power in outrage at the situation? Because it is outrageous. The whole affair reeks of brown envelopes and government/corporate inbreeding to me.

adam

[This message has been edited by dahamsta (edited 06-08-2001).]

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gladiator:
yea its fair to say we all knew eircon would look for that, but the odtr sets the prices not eircon,
im sure she doesn't few ADSL as a Premium Service, if she does she shouldn't be in the job, </font>

Does she set the wholesale price or the end user price? If I understand it correctly the price submitted for approval is a wholesale price (ie what they will charge companies such as Esat).

LegacyUser

If the ADSL is anyway 100% more than the rest of the EU i am moving once i get teh chance.... The Netherlands or Germany i think
. ONce teh Euro is out there will be blood spilled on the streets.... Irish citzens will go ape after they discover that we pay 3 times more for everything compared to the rest of the EU

(on average)

---

"Information is Ammunition"
Choas Engine
Email: choas@netshop.ie
ICQ: 34896460

LegacyUser

wholesale prices as far as i know, but the two wont be miles apart, it would be bad bussiness sense on eircons part to do so,

And Chaos-Engine allot of things will be cheaper in ireland then europe when the euro hits, except services, ie adsl,
thats the way i think it will go anyway

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gladiator:
it just so happens eircom has to start llu this month or the get fines, just before this they release they will offer adsl,
</font>

Actually, LLU happened in January, according to both the ODTR and Eircom.

The holdup has been all the red tape between Esat and Eircom and the ODTR. That's what the main problem is, the stupid lengths of time that the companies have to respond to requests and when the ODTR can jump into things, etc.

E

LegacyUser

why does everybody say that, it does my head in, i know llu *started* in january but the actual phyical preparing of exchanges and instalation of hardware has to start this month, or fines will be issued, this could have started months ago if the prices had of been set,
the problem is eircom has 100 days from start to finish for the first exchange to be undundled and 30 days to unbundle each exhcange after that from time of llu is requested, and this could be even longer depending on how long it takes esat to finish their work and move on to each stage.

dahamsta

Actually, the correct terminology, that the ODTR uses, is "operational". Which, if you look it up in a dictionary, is defined as "working order and ready for use". My **** .

adam

LegacyUser

hmm well it wont be in working order for 3 months, im sure what your saying is correct, but i cant be arsed diging through all those odtr reports, its a much of a muchness

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gladiator:
why does everybody say that, it does my head in, i know llu *started* in january but the actual phyical preparing of exchanges and instalation of hardware has to start this month, or fines will be issued, this could have started months ago if the prices had of been set,
the problem is eircom has 100 days from start to finish for the first exchange to be undundled and 30 days to unbundle each exhcange after that from time of llu is requested, and this could be even longer depending on how long it takes esat to finish their work and move on to each stage.</font>

Well, if ya knew... :-)

Okay, from what I remember, Esat has already started to install equipment into Eircom exchanges. I don't know where, which, any of that, but they are working on it. Esat jumps the second that Eircom gives them the answer/access that they need. Eircom just keeps doing things by the book, stretching things out. They have the right to do that (even tho I'm ready to go postal on them), so we'll just see what happens on Sept 28.

E

LegacyUser

understand, as much as i hate the odtr and eircon, and as much as i hate the way people defend the odtr, esat hasnt offically requested llu untill eircom offically started adsl commercal trials, its all a big games, so they could say that they plain to release SDSL this time never year, something full llu is needed for, the same way cutting off the 2000 user was all to put pressure on the odtr,
esat is as much at fault as the rest of them

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ekehoe:
Okay, from what I remember, Esat has already started to install equipment into Eircom exchanges</font>

In all fairness Elana, Esat haven't exactly rushed to take advantage of LLU - he only applied for access to Eircom exchanges in May, a full 5 months after it was possible to.

I know, I know, prices weren't set etc. etc., but everyone know that they would be regulated down to a low enough level that OLOs could turn a profit - Esat still chose to do nothing.

IMHO, Esat are every bit as nasty as BT, except without the monopoly.

BTW: What has Sept. 28 got to do with LLU (apart from Eircom's bitstream service, which is irrelevant to LLU)?

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 09-08-2001).]

LegacyUser

hubson you asking me or him,
its got nothing to do with llu directly, but the when it happens your sure to see allot of movement on the llu front aswell

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gladiator:
hubson you asking me or him,
its got nothing to do with llu directly, but the when it happens your sure to see allot of movement on the llu front aswell</font>

I was asking Elana, but it was a rhetorical question anyway. I was trying to point out that Sept. 28 has nothing, zip, nada to do with LLU.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hudson806:
In all fairness Elana, Esat haven't exactly rushed to take advantage of LLU - he only applied for access to Eircom exchanges in May, a full 5 months after it was possible to.

I know, I know, prices weren't set etc. etc., but everyone know that they would be regulated down to a low enough level that OLOs could turn a profit - Esat still chose to do nothing.</font>

I don't understand your reasoning here. No OLO is going to roll out DSL blind - which is what we're at at the moment. There is no guaranteees that the prices will be regulated low enough to turn a profit. Before the ODTR finally got off their behinds, it looked impossible to turn a profit, now we're in limbo land with prices being challenged. I don't fault ESAT in this situation, without them we'd be looking at no rival DSL operator at all.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hmmm:
I don't fault ESAT in this situation, without them we'd be looking at no rival DSL operator at all.</font>

Esat had an alternative to doing absolutely nothing. They could have applied for unbundling in the exchanges they wanted, and then changed their minds if the prices weren't reduced. They decided to play games for political gain instead by not applying (its hard to pretend to the media that you're being bullied, when you've actually applied to use the exhanges...)

That said, what they did made sense for them strategically, but it just irritates me that some people seem to think that Esat are blameless, particularly when appearing blameless at all times is part of their PR strategy

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 09-08-2001).]

LegacyUser

Maybe you can tell us what 'applying' actually means, because it sure as hell isn't putting your name down on a little list outside Telecom HQ. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree here, but I don't see any point in anyone going to time and expense to try and introduce a service that is patently unprofitable. Esat have introduced a 'fast track' proposal for their DSL service, as far as I can remember (open for correction here) this was before the whole SNL fiasco.

LegacyUser

hes right, if they had of applied the odtr could have steped in sooner to settle the price, applyign doesnt mean the price is set, it just gets all the player to the table,

as the odtr was very fond of bashing our heads with the fact she cant intervien without being requested by one of the sides, and since there was no side how could she intervien,

dahamsta

I'm afraid he's right hmmm, Eircom aren't the only guilty party here, it runs across the board. Eircom are guilty of course, of blocking the process by any and all means, and the ODTR are guilty - as the article someone posted recently - of being toothless, but the other OLO's, Esat in particular, have done little or nothing to help themselves. I say Esat in particular becuase they're the second biggest telco in Ireland, and they can afford to push the envelope. But they didn't, and it seems that they didn't because they wanted to keep competition between themselves and Eircom. They could have applied for space in the exchanges, but in my mind they steadfastly avoided an option that in my opinion could have broken the deadlock - a high-profile advertising campaign explaining the problem and lambasting Eircom for their reticence.

adam

astrofool

hmm

Esat were about to start trialling adsl, and were allowed to do that, I was on the list for it.

Eircom discovered they couldn't get their equipment working, Esat's did.

Eircom's solution would surely be to improve their technology, but no, what eircom did was to throw Esat out of all it's exchanges, and stop their adsl plans. Esat if they had access would have it going in a couple of weeks.

How do I know this?

am friends with the top tech lad in Esat, how else do you think I was on the trial and got a free router

LegacyUser

hate to say it again lads, but another week, thats makes 3 since the odtr got the prices,
wonder if we will get them next week

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by astrofool:
Esat were about to start trialling adsl, and were allowed to do that</font>

Right. They were allowed access to exchanges by Eircom without ever applying for it. Yeah.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Eircom discovered they couldn't get their equipment working, Esat's did.
</font>

When was this?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">am friends with the top tech lad in Esat, how else do you think I was on the trial and got a free router </font>

I don't mean to criticise your friend, but I think he may be telling porkies...

LegacyUser

well hubson, they did announce they were going to trial adsl

Kix

I don't know why the idea of Esat trialing ADSL is surprising to anyone.

I heard the first explicit mention of Esat trialing ADSL (in Cork), on the IIU mail list, back in June. Back in Feburary someone with an IOL email address said that he had just been hooked up with ADSL but declined to say which teleco (draw your own conclusions).

K

* I might add that his IOL email address, which I won't post, was such as to suggest that he'd been with IOL for a long time - perhaps even working for them.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kix:
I don't know why the idea of Esat trialing ADSL is surprising to anyone.
</font>

The only reason it surprises me is that they weren't even allowed to apply for access to Eircom exchanges until January, and they didn't actually apply until May.

And back in February, Eircom were busy trialling ADSL, so I guess he was probably with them


[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 10-08-2001).]

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hudson806:
I don't mean to criticise your friend, but I think he may be telling porkies...</font>

Nah it's true - it wasn't as public as the Eircom trial - there were two spreadsheets making the rounds as I remember - one had a list of phone number prefixes and if you were on the list your exchange would be part of the trial (I presume it tallied with the Eircon trial exchanges). The 2nd spreadsheet was the application form, had to be emailed to someone or other. I remember Terenure was on it so I went for it.

Last I heard Esat were blaming Eircom for not allowing them to go ahead with their trial, I don't know the background to this.

Kix

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hudson806:
The only reason it surprises me is that they weren't even allowed to apply for access to Eircom exchanges until January, and they didn't actually apply until May.</font>

Well of course, Esat and Eircom were perfectly allowed to come to any private arrangement they liked with regard to a trial. Allowing Esat access to one exchange for a trial is not the same as giving them general access.

From Eircom's point of view they could have got a nice bit of money for it and also the very valuable opportunity to get a first hand glance at what the competition had planned.

K

LegacyUser

oh and a post on the ILUG list just now suggests that Esat are shortly restarting their trials (we should be getting a mail in a day or two). Fingers crossed.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hmmm:
oh and a post on the ILUG list just now suggests that Esat are shortly restarting their trials (we should be getting a mail in a day or two). Fingers crossed.</font>

If you follow that up, it seems it's only for ESAT staff..

Mike

LegacyUser

yea, it was allways only esat staff,
dont expect more for along while yet, the only thign you can be sure of is the first people to provide adsl in your area will be eircon, and esat will allways be afew months behind. personaly ive seen esat leased line in action, and it doesnt fill me with confidence

Dustaz

Recieved yesterday:

Hi,

Esat Fusion is trailing ADSL!!!!

ADSL, short for Asymmetric Digital Subscriber Line, is an exciting new
technology that utilises existing telephone lines for multimedia and high
speed data/internet communications at up to 10 times faster than traditional
dial up access, in parallel with the regular telephone voice services.

This is an exciting time for us in Esat Fusion, as we put this new
technology to the test!

As an existing customer of Esat Fusion, it is our pleasure to invite you to
help us in this trial. This is an opportunity for you to avail of FREE high
speed, always on Internet, for the duration of the trial.

All you have to do at first, is complete the attached questionnaire, and
reply to above mail address.(dsltrials@esat.com)
Once we receive your completed questionnaire, we will contact you to confirm
whether or not you are eligible for the trial, and make further arrangements
then!

This trial is subject to the strictest confidentiality. We request that you
keep in confidence any information provided by Esat, or obtained during the
trial and not disclose that information to any person without the prior
written consent of Esat.

Thank you,

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dustaz:
whether or not you are eligible for the trial, and make further arrangements
then!

This trial is subject to the strictest confidentiality. We request that you
</font>

There goes your chance of being deemed eligible