Dennis Miller on Israel

---- i saw this on another board i frequent, and thought it was rather good.

Dennis Miller on Israel

For those who don't know, Dennis Miller is a comedian who has a show called Dennis Miller Live on HBO. He recently went on a rant about the situation:

"A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Don't thank me.

I'm a giver. Here we go:

The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."

So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths FAMIL until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."

I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: Adjacent Jew-Haters." Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel.

They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course -- that's where the real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it -- for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something.

It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews.

Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals.

Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs taken away.

However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of losing moral weight.

We've already lost some. After September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint.

If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan. (Hey, wait a minute, that's actually not such a bad id .. . .. ooh, that is, what a horrible thought, yeah, horrible.)"

Please feel free to pass this along.

DiscoStu

C:\Dos
C:\Dos\Run
Run\Dos\Run

only one in a million would find that funny. its called the dennis miller ratio.

makes perfect sense now.

shotamoose

Gosh, what a hate-filled bigot. Not Dennis Miller, because he didn't write it. Larry Miller did. Which makes you even more of an idiot. If you want to discuss Israel and the Palestinians, it's really not necessary to spread racist invective. So please stop.

blondi

a spiky issue, but well delivered, have always had mixed feelings bout this issue and it presented me with an honest view.
I do believe the jews should have a homeland, considering everything that's happened in the last 70yrs in Europe.
One could hardly blame them for wanting that.
Dealing with terrorism is a double edged sword and it's often difficult to give a measured response when under constant surprise attack. However I feel Israel has a special responsibility never to fall to the level of their one time Nazi opressors in 30s &40s Europe when dealing with this. I feel this would tarnish everything the Israeli state should stand for and fear in some peoples eyes would cloud any deserved sympathy over the Holocaust.
We should all remember the Holocaust make every concievable effort to prevent the seeds of such hatred ever germinating again in a modern civilised tolerant world.

growler

moronic , untrue, uninformed racism at it's very worst , that this was aired as "comedy" is astounding , what next homer simpson explains the basque problem, graham norton on newsnight ?

how can you have reposted this as "rather good" rather than "racist drivel for the intellectually challenged?"

oh come on... u guys just love to make comments like that without actually saying anything. Well, apparently we're all entitled to our own opinions, and i thought it was quite a good read.

also how is this racist? against the arabs? or the israeli's? in either case i don't find it racist. Just a funny & interesting perception of whats going on. Makes a nice change from all those "serious" people who shout end of the world slogans.


>>> shotamoose
>>> I said at the start i took it from another board, that i read. I never said who wrote it. Also i'll say anything i damn well please. The fact that you read this and automatically thought of bigotry is a bit off. I read this and thought, not a bad description of the situation. But hey, i've always been fairly pro-israel, so i suppose that explains it.

dathi1

I actually thought it was quite funny............but even funnier when you consider that the Land-grabbers actually started/// no sorry invented the whole terrorist idea in the first place: Stern gang etc. chuckle chuckle ha ha

Shinji

Well, apparently we're all entitled to our own opinions.

I didn't realise that "opinions" stretched to "rewriting history" nowadays.

Then I have decided that in my opinion there is no such thing as an "Irish person", they're all just British Catholic People Who Hated British Protestants On The Other Island and killed loads of them in an attempt to get a "homeland" that had never previously existed.

Fair enough, yes?

Fair enough. U have the right to your opinion. I wouldn't advise saying it out loud in many irish pubs though.

But I didn't write anything that rewrote history. Point it out to me, and we'll see if i'm mistaken. However if you're talking abt the miller script, don't go crazy, since i didn't write it, i just thought it quite interesting/funny.

swiss

Originally posted by klaz:

However if you're talking abt the miller script, don't go crazy, since i didn't write it, i just thought it quite interesting/funny

That's fine, but it is the usual custom on this board to discuss a topic rather than fire up a quote verbatim and not add any input of your own. Otherwise, people might be liable to believe that you endorse the opinions and sentiments expressed in the article, unless you state otherwise. Saying "I thought it was rather good" implies that you agree with the sentiments, or find it amusing. Either way, it is a debatable position.

I find it neither witty or amusing. It is a glaringly biased piece, and shotamoose summed it up pretty accurately, IMO by calling it "racist invective". In fact it might be one of the most objectionable "humorous" articles I have read in a long time.

If your intention was not to discuss Israel and the Palestinians by posting this article, what was your goal?

I admit that i didn't think it through well enough before i submitted it to this board. I like to discuss the topics herein on this board, however i find that most people are so serious that every thread tends to become a flaming session or a argument of amazing proportions. I thought this would be a nice change from the gloomy politics i usually hear in here. However i agree it wasn't the best post to make, since i didn't think of the people it would offend. My apologies.

one last point. I'm probably going to be on these boards for a while. And i agree that i need to learn a few guidelines, which i will. However, I didn't see the script as being racist invective. Might be a blind spot for me, i suppose.

Clintons Cat

Wasnt palestine a British mandate at the end of the first world war?

Doesnt the Balfor Declaration upon which the UN based the establishment modern state of israel was founded refer to the establishment of two states one jewish one muslim to be established within the lands of palestine?

So technically its not only unfunny its also wrong.

Cue long lecture discussing the text and merits of the Balfor Declaration...

shotamoose

Originally posted by klaz
I admit that i didn't think it through well enough before i submitted it to this board. I like to discuss the topics herein on this board, however i find that most people are so serious that every thread tends to become a flaming session or a argument of amazing proportions. I thought this would be a nice change from the gloomy politics i usually hear in here. However i agree it wasn't the best post to make, since i didn't think of the people it would offend. My apologies.

one last point. I'm probably going to be on these boards for a while. And i agree that i need to learn a few guidelines, which i will. However, I didn't see the script as being racist invective. Might be a blind spot for me, i suppose.

I don't want to drag this out, but I've got two points to make. Firstly, I have no problem with someone making a post showing some serious political situation in a humorous light. In fact, I usually enjoy this kind of thing, since some of the best humour uses fairness and truth to expose hypocrisy, greed and so on. But this article didn't, and wasn't even slightly funny.

Secondly, here's three reasons I thought it was racist:
-He treats Arabs as a homogenous group, which they are not;
-He next calls Arabs (all Arabs, obviously) the "most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth";
-He seems to think that personality and political attitude are determined by or derived from ethnicity. Arabs are 'Jew-haters', and as for Jews:

Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.

So Arabs are all the same and bad. And Jews are all the same and good. That's racist.

DiscoStu

Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.

there are two name that can destroy that argument.

Yitzhak Rabin.

Yigal Amir.

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by klaz
---- i saw this on another board i frequent, and thought it was rather good.



Dear oh dear. It's always risky replying to simplistic drivel like this post (NB not the poster, I've read the 'What's acceptable' policies now) but here goes.


The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years.


Well 50 years ago there was no Israel either. In fact, they didn't decide on the name until the last minute. It was nearly called Zion. But then 100 years ago there was no Slovenia, or Czech Republic or Slovakia, or Poland, or Croatia or Estonia or Latvia or Lithuania or Belarus or Moldova or Ukraine or let me see, who am I forgetting. Oh, yes.
Ireland.



Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews.

Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals.


Not comparing like with like. Most of the Arab countries occupy uninhabitable desert. Egypt, for example is may times larger than Israel but the only inhabitable part is the Nile Valley. So on a nationwide basis, Israel may have a higher population density, but in reality, a population twice the size of Israel lives in Cairo.


Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not.


Ironically enough one of the world's most famous Jewish authors could. Check out Exodus by Leon Uris. A low-brow polemical rant about the formation of Israel whose tone is similar, in parts, to the first post here.

There is a suicide bomber in the novel. But it's a Jewish woman fighting the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto. She runs towards a few Germans and detonates the hand grenades she is holding, killing herself and all surrounding SS in the process. I think the reader is supposed to think she is heroic and to sympathise with her plight.

Just goes to show that suicide bombing is the tactic of last resort of a desparate people.

John R

Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not.

I distinctly remember a quote from a senior Israeli government member, shown on the ITV documentary before christmas to the effect that Israel would be willing to destroy themselves along with their enemies rather than face loosing to them.

TrevorOcon

SO MILLER AND 'KLAZ' ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THOSE 'NON-EXISTENT' "PALESTINIANS" WHO ARE MERELY A BUNCH OF 'ARABS' WHO WANDERED INTO PALESTINE AFTER THE ISRAELIS BUILT SOMETHING UP THERE ?? NO. I DON'T THINK SO. IN ANY EVENT THE WRITER OBVIOUSLY WANTS THE PALESTINIAN FREEDOM FIGHTERS TO STOP SACRIFICING THEMSELVES AS THEY BLOW UP THE INVADER ISRAELI TO TRY TO WIN THEIR LAND BACK. OK.

You seriously want to stop all suicide-bombing? This how then::

How to Stop All Suicide Bombing .... of Israelis with NO Palestinian
or Muslim agreement needed!

Now isn't that what the Sharon type Israeli would want?

Actually no, it isn't. They would argue against it. See if I am
wrong.

However the solution is indisputable.

Here it is - Completely doable solely through Israeli action by itself::

1. Remove all Palestinians, other arabs and Muslims from Israel. (In
other words - Stop exploiting their sweat labor and dig your own
Israeli ditches).

2. Remove ALL - that is -ALL- Israelis and otherwise Jews from the
1967 bordered Palestine area.

3. Permit no Israeli or Jew to Enter Palestine .

4. Permit no Palestinian, Muslim or otherwise Arab to enter Israel of
the 1967 borders.

Now what do you have once you have done that? No Jews or Israelis
in Palestine among Palestinians, Muslims or arabs.

And No Palestinians, Muslims or arabs in Israel among Jews or
Israelis.

* Well since no Jew or Israeli would be in Palestine then no Jew or
Israeli could be blown up in Palestine.

* And since No Palestinian, Muslim or Arab would be in Israel of the
1967 borders - No Jew could be blown up in Israel by any Palestinian,
Muslim or Arab.

There it is. Suicide bombing of Israelis in either area would be
impossible - stopped instantly after the respective populations had
been moved to their respective countries.
So is stopping suicide bombing really a priority with
the Israelis?? Of course not! - because they've had the solution all
along. The IDF has demonstrated that it can go anywhere in Palestine
and move any of the population to any area they wish to. So this
solution is absolutely doable.

Do we as Israelis and American Israeli supporters want to do this?

Zionist-Israelis speak:"Absolutely NOT! Are you crazy? What EXCUSE
would we then have to Grab Palestinian land and Occupy Palestine if
all Jews were out of Palestine and All Palestinians were out of
Israel??!! How could we have the suicide bombings We NEED to keep
our excuse for occupying Palestine going then?

"Forget it baby! Back to the drawing board and think of another
way to show that the only way we can get 'guarantees of peace' from
Palestine is for them to cede land to us. That's what we really
need, baby. "

SO MILLER AND 'KLAZ' ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THOSE 'NON-EXISTENT' "PALESTINIANS"

Whoa, big boy! I never said anything along those lines. I posted the miller speech, yes, and i said i thought it was amusing. Don't jump to conclusions abt what i think. I'll tell you if you want to know. Yup, NOW i'll complain.

Personally, I don't have much patience for these Palestinians, since i don't agree with terrorist actions. Suicide bombing on civilian targets just gets me angry at them, and i fail to get any sympathy for them as a result. Just as i have little or no patience for the IRA, with their bombings.

I understand that most of the people here, seem to feel that the Israelis are in the wrong. Theres a huge Pro-Palestinian movement here in these politics boards. Well, frankly i don't really mind one way or another.

The way i see this, is like this. Israel have their own country, which was zionist lands before israel was founded. The Arabs/Palestinians want these lands, and made a grab for them in the 50's. They got their asses kicked, and ended up loosing part of their own lands in the process. Israel siezed these lands as a buffer against further attacks. Since then the israelis have had to put up with terrorist strikes, by these Palestinians' fronts/groups. In retaliation for suicide bombers taking out civilian area's, Israel has decided they've hgad enough, and are retailitating.

So this is my Opinion on the subject. These Palestinians were created as a result of the buffer zone that Israel created. They've been performing Terrorist actions for the last 20-30 years, and as such aren't worth spitting on.

I'm sure you're going to point out how wrong i am, on most of these points, and i look forward to seeing the evidence that disproves my opinion.

dathi1

So this is my Opinion on the subject. These Palestinians were created as a result of the buffer zone that Israel created. They've been performing Terrorist actions for the last 20-30 years, and as such aren't worth spitting on.

Either you dont have a clue or you're taking the piss.

why? tell me in what way u think i'm off base?

dathi1

"Forget it baby! Back to the drawing board and think of another

I think Baby..you need too get out of occupied / stolen land end of story..and sort out the economic and social problems afterwards.

dathi1

The way i see this, is like this. Israel have their own country, which was zionist lands before israel was founded.

ok...besides Biblical quotes and Torah rants..explain what you mean by this?

The Arabs/Palestinians want these lands, and made a grab for them in the 50's. They got their asses kicked, and ended up loosing part of their own lands in the process.

Part, Full...what are u talking about?
The Total population of Jewish People in Palestine was 6% in 1922...the rest were arabs (Hashimites etc..) Christian and so on.

growler

one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter, none of us is going to change that basic truth lads.

naturally the removal of all israelis form plaestine and vice versa would be completely impossible to enforce and utterly illegal under any law i can think of , and building bigger walls has never solved the problem anywhere ..so that ain't an option

to be honest klaz it's hard not to be pro-palestinian when IMHO they are simply reduced to the most drastic of measures to try and scare / terrorise / fight a vastly superior opponent, i doubt i would kill myself for my country and i can only imagine the hopelessness that would drive any human being to such an extreme. Israel has shown a lack of humanity , respect for life and international law that has convinced me they are the in a morally indefensible position

Meh

Originally posted by growler
Israel has shown a lack of humanity , respect for life and international law that has convinced me they are the in a morally indefensible position

I agree with you that Israel has committed many crimes against Palestinian civilians.

But I believe suicide bombings of civilians are also against international law, even if the civilians involved are Israeli. Yet you express sympathy for the Palestinians who commit these acts rather than condemning them. Double standard?

growler

ok , ok , i was wrong about the celebrations , did a little digging and there is documented dancing on the streets of gaza on sept 11th. apologies

double standards ? hmmm , very dodgy ground here i admit , but if you are fighting a vastly superior enemy (equipment, personnel, technology etc. are all on israels side) then what does one do ?
bend over and take it like a man ?
i've got to say i have a certain amount of admiration for their courage (you'll say stupidity) and strength of their convictions.

does international law make suicide bombings illegal ? (hard to enforce anyway so rather academic i would have thought)

Civilians are always getting killed Meh, does a suicide bomb really differ to a car bomb ? or one dropped from a b52 ?
In the end you use what materials are available to you , the palestinians now seem to have no hope and attach no value to human life ..their own or any israelis' , but it's pretty obvious to me that shooting their kids and filling their homes with cement wont solve much

Meh

Originally posted by growler
i've got to say i have a certain amount of admiration for their courage (you'll say stupidity) and strength of their convictions.

So you admire people who murder children.

does international law make suicide bombings illegal ?

Deliberately targetting the civilian population is illegal under international law. Hamas probably hasn't signed the Geneva Convention though but...

Civilians are always getting killed

You're very callous about the deaths of Israeli civilians, but you seem to view the lives of Palestinian civilians as much more important.

Meh, does a suicide bomb really differ to a car bomb ? or one dropped from a b52 ?

That depends on whether the car bomb or the b52 daisy cutter was deliberately aimed at civilians. It's all about intent -- like the difference between murder and manslaughter.

It's hard not to conclude that you have a pro-Palestinian bias when your posts seem to be a long list of rationalizations why Palestinians killing Jewish civilians is OK. Yourself and Dennis Miller aren't so different after all. Both of you view the other side as subhuman and undeserving of human rights.

bonkey

Originally posted by TrevorOcon
However the solution is indisputable.

Really? I would say that your solution is simplistic, based on assumptions which have never been shown to work that I am aware of, and in violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (where the rights to residence and religion are seperate and individually inviolable).

You state that Israel alone can effect this change, but fail to show how Israel will police Palestine's border (how else can Jews be prevented from entering Palestine), nor indeed how it can police its own border to identify those of a foreign religion.

Not only that, but you completely ignore the fact that the vast majority (if not all) of the suicide bombers do not cross the border legally - so how is your "simple" solution going to prevent these people from continuing what they already do?

In short, your solution isnt one.

jc

TrevorOcon

Wrongo 'bonkey'.

1. Repeatedly Sharon and the IDF Isreali Army have proved by their ReOccupation of Palestinian controlled sectors - and by their Removal of any Palestinians that they wish to imprison or remove, that CLEARLY Israel alone has the power to put and keep any of its people or the Palestinians where ever they wish.

So closing the borders is No Problem. They don't want to do that -as I am sure you well know and endorse- because A. They wish to use the Palestinian's patriotic violent resistance to their Israeli Invasion and Occupation of Palestinian land as an excuse to Annex all of Palestine - for "Israeli safety" of course. And B. Israel wants cheap Palestinian labor to dig their ditches and do their menial work.

You go on to make the claim that:

>"Not only that, but you completely ignore the fact that the vast majority (if not all) of the suicide bombers do not cross the border legally - so how is your "simple" solution going to prevent these people .......?"<

..... You make a false claim there. What is your SOURCE -proving that the *"Majority"* of sucide bombers cross the border illegaly?? If the majority had crossed Illegally the Israelis would not be able to retaliate by demolishing the Houses that They and their families lived in. You are a disinformation purveyor for Israel.

No. Israel will never close the 1967 borders simply because that WOULD END The suicide bombing and End the Israeli excuse to grab more land. Israel needs the violent resistence to their Occupation of Palestine as the Israeli Excuse to grab more and more of Palestine - not to mention it serves as an excuse to exterminate the courageous proportion of the Palestinian people who violently resist the Occupation. The statistics show that Israeli retaliations kill 4 to 5 more Palestinians than the suicide bombers kill Israelis.

TrevorOcon

If you have a 'civilian' population that spends a
mandatory part of its time in the conquering occupying army of a
country - then it is simply

(excepting the children -the Israeli's
kill children as well)-

a group of Army people temporarily out of Uniform. So if
the Al aqsa martyr's brigade take off their patches and call 'time
out' to be 'CIVILIANS' then the Israelis shouldn't kill them ?
Right?

Just as when the IDF men and women call 'time out' and take
off Thier uniforms and go back to be just CIVILIANS - then they should not be killed, right?

None of this is the Point - none of the Zionists on here have been able to refute or even Argue why the Solution to Ending the Suiciding Bombing in my first Post couldn't work if put into effect.

The Israelis lose no land Thereby that they had by mandate in 1967 by my Post Solution -


No one has been able to show why refusing to allow Arabs or Palestinians into the UN Madated Israel of the 1967 borders and having Israelis voluntarily STAYING out of 1967 bordered Palestine would not definitely solve the Israeli's suicide bombing problem.

As predicted - no Zionist has been able to refute the Solution to
Ending the Suicide Bombing in my Post

TrevorOcon

http://www.counterpunch.org/butterfly1123.htmlCounterPunch

"November 23, 2002 I Was Shot While Escorting Jenin's School Children by CAOIMHE BUTTERLY (Interviewed by Annie Higgins) In today's reinvasion of Jenin Refugee Camp, the Israeli Occupation Forces made the bottom section of the camp into a closed military zone in the morning, using about twelve tanks, ten jeeps, and at least two Apache helicopter gunships. I had been trying to get between the unarmed children and the tanks, when I received .."

One of the English UN workers says in the article::
".....where I tried to dialogue with the [Israeli] soldiers. I implored them not to shoot live ammunition at unarmed children. "


Read the rest of the article at 'counterpunch' - where the Israeli Army killed the head UN worker in the area who was trying to protect the Palestinian children.

So Zionests - Forget! the child killing claims unless you are going to get Israel to stop deliberately killing children.

TrevorOcon

This is the Source NET address to the above article. It did not transfere correctly to the posting board for some reason.

http://www.counterpunch.org/butterfly1123.html

>>>>>>Having been present in the Camp all morning, I can testify that any Palestinian fighters had stopped shooting a good two hours before either of us was wounded. When I passed the UN compound in the morning, it was surrounded by Israeli Army snipers and soldiers who were shooting erratically into the Camp. Two people were killed and six wounded. <<<<<

I agree that the taking out of civilians is a terrible thing. The shooting of children is horrible. However, in this i would like to mention a few things. The Palestinian forces have decided to use gurellia tactics, which means using civilian camoflage. Appearing out of a crowd, shooting at soldiers, and then disappearing back into the crowd. When supported by the general public, this is the concept behind guerrila warfare. The problem with this is, that they've been using these tactics for the last 20 odd years, & the Israelis naturally are in a disadvantage. The point i wish to make abt the above statement, is how are the Israeli army to know that there are no more gunmen in the crowd? That the crowd don't all have weapons?



>>>>>>>>>The massacre has not stopped. <<<<<<<

Human rights violations and war crimes seen so blatantly across the world in April of this year continue on a daily basis in Jenin. Yesterday, with the casual killings that marked it, was not an unusual day in Jenin. It has become a potentially suicidal act to engage in the most basic acts of survival. The Israeli Occupation Forces engage again and again in a shoot-to-kill policy without regard as to whether its targets are civilians or armed fighters. Israelis have been shown in April that they can get away with a massacre, and that all the international condemnation in the world cannot get one ambulance in to evacuate a wounded person.<<<<<<<<<

"Two people were killed and six wounded." When has this ever consituted a Massacre? The last suicide bomber i heard of took out 20+ people, wounded & killed included. Is that not a Massacre? To a nation that has been getting hit by a couple of Massacres every month or so, I think i can understand the reasoning behind treating all civilians as potential enemies. Do you know if the Palestinian fighters engage in a Shoot-to-Kill policy against both israeli civilian/Military targets?


>>>>>>They are being denied not only the right to resist, but to exist.<<<<<<
Well, for a people, being denied the right to resist they're doing an "awful job" of it. Do they have the right to launch suicide bombers into a country with the intention of killing ANYTHING at all? I daresay that if they stopped fighting, this would get resolved. Remember, while the Israeli Army, occupied these areas, they didn't send in large troop forces (with the intention of fighting the Palestinians) until they got tired of being hit by suicide bombers. Before the bombers, they policed the area, similiar to what the british do in the North. Yes, they occupy it, and the Palestinians have the right to resist, but i have never, nor will i ever support a group that intentially targets Civilian Areas. ( In "Palestine", the way they fight, guarantees theres no difference between civilian & miltary targets).



This incident is a horrible thing. But i can understand how it happened.

bonkey

Originally posted by TrevorOcon
1. Repeatedly Sharon and the IDF Isreali Army have proved by their ReOccupation of Palestinian controlled sectors - and by their Removal of any Palestinians that they wish to imprison or remove, that CLEARLY Israel alone has the power to put and keep any of its people or the Palestinians where ever they wish.

No - it has the want, not the power.

For a start, if Israel clearly had this power, then they would clearly have already stopped those suicide bombers from coming onto their lands....except of course that you seem to assert that this is deliberate - that Israel wants to let these bombers in so as to give it an excuse to grab more land. I'll dela with that farcical notion later on.

Secondly, as I pointed out (which you conveniently ignored), Israel has no way of policing borders which are not contiguous to its own. How, for example, would Israel stop an Australian Jew from flying into Palestine via a stopover in another ostensibly arab nation?

So closing the borders is No Problem.

Really? Explain how the Palestinian borders which do not touch Israel will be closed by the Israelis? Explain how the Israeli's will control the passenger list of every flight into Palestine, regardless of the plane's origin? Explain how they will accurately identify the religion of every single person on those planes, given that it is not information available from the airlines or any other source.

They don't want to do that -as I am sure you well know and endorse- because A. They wish to use the Palestinian's patriotic violent resistance to their Israeli Invasion and Occupation of Palestinian land as an excuse to Annex all of Palestine - for "Israeli safety" of course. And B. Israel wants cheap Palestinian labor to dig their ditches and do their menial work.

So, what you're in effect saying is that bombings are continuing because Israel wants the bombings to continue? Riiight.

As for annexing more land...not a chance. Cannot and will not happen. Were Israel to grab more land - even a square meter - the arab reaction would lead to a war in the Middle East which would destabilise the entire region. The effect this would have on the world oil market is easily imaginable, as is the knock-on crippling of the entire global economy.

I can assure you that the US - much and all as it likes Israel - would walk in there and slap them six ways to Sunday before that would be allowed to happen.

You go on to make the claim that:
..... You make a false claim there. What is your SOURCE -proving that the *"Majority"* of sucide bombers cross the border illegaly??

Well, gosh, my source would be the fact that the border guards search everyone crossing at the legal points. So unless you want to claim that they are not actually bothering to stop the people they find the explosives on, we can safely assume that at the very least the explosives are being smuggled across the border. So exactly how will border checks manage to stop this?

If the majority had crossed Illegally the Israelis would not be able to retaliate by demolishing the Houses that They and their families lived in.

Sure...well lets try a slight rewording then...

even if the bombers are crossing legally and unarmed, someone is smuggling the bombs across the border. By this logic, closing the border will not prevent suicide bombings, as the bomber simply needs to be the person smuggling the bomb across in future, if that is not the case already

You are a disinformation purveyor for Israel.

Riiiight. Thats why at least 50% of my posts on the Israel/Palestine argument over the past year or two have been condemning the Israeli actions. Its all so clear now. How could I have missed it?

Course, at least I'm not blinkered enough to believe that only one side is to blame, nor to believe that the solution which has evaded the world for the past few decades is so blindingly simple.

No. Israel will never close the 1967 borders simply because that WOULD END The suicide bombing and End the Israeli excuse to grab more land. Israel needs the violent resistence to their Occupation of Palestine as the Israeli Excuse to grab more and more of Palestine - not to mention it serves as an excuse to exterminate the courageous proportion of the Palestinian people who violently resist the Occupation.

I find it amazing that you have such a low opinion of Palestinians, despite the fact that you clearly wish to innacruately portray them as the sole victims in all of this.

Allow me to clarify....

You clearly must think that they are all cretins or something, because if this is the reason for it all - that Israel is deliberately provoking these bombers for an ulterior motive - then surely all the Palestinians have to do is stop sending bombers.

In fact, surely the only sensible, intelligent thing to do is stop sending bombers. But they're not doing that. So either they realise what Israel is up to but are too stupid to realise how to deal with it, or they havent realised what Israel are up to....but you make it sound glaringly obvious that I cant believe that unless you assert that their intelligence is somehow lacking.

Were Palestine to stop co-operating by sending thse suicide bombers, Israel would quickly lose its expansion possibilities, lose its "us poor Jews always being picked on" cover-story, and would quickly lose international support when it became clear that Palestine wants a peaceful solution and the Israeli's dont.

The only possible explanation for all of this is that the Palestinian people, as a nation, are fundamentally stupid, because their leaders (spiritual, governmental, or resistance-based) have realised none of this yet.

So maybe youd care to explain to me...if Israel is clearly the bad guy, and Israel is clearly provoking Palestine to its reactions, and Israel clearly wants these reactions to continue to further its aims as a nation (at the cost of its people), then what on earth are the Palestinians playing into their hands for????

Like I said...despite defending them vigorously, you have to admit they're pretty thick by simple extrapolation from your own arguments.

TrevorOcon

Bonkey - I don't have the Internet time most people on here perhaps have. I appreciate you taking the points I make seriously and sticking to the issues as you have however.

It seems that I was wrong in suggesting that you have a bias for Israel that would lead you to post Israeli propaganda.

Many years back when it seemed that their might be an overwhelming Arab coalition to destroy Israel I and another young friend of mine decided together that we would work continuously for Israel - whenever we could and perhaps even fight with Israeli forces if possible. I think it just and good for the world for Israel to flourish as a country . But not to flourish by taking the Palestinian land that Israel has settled Israelis on - and not to flourish at the expense of the Palestinian people by taking more land.

It is not Up to those whose land is Invaded and Occupied to first stop the Violent Resistence - or ANY violent resistence to those Occupiers. It is up to the Occupier FIRST to GET OUT of the lands that they have Taken and Occupied of others in order to have the violence toward them stop. It is Ridiculous for Israel to claim or to say to the world that "we will only 'just consider' getting out of the Palestinian's After the Palestinians stop trying to drive us out of Palestine by their suicide bombings."

One doesn't negotiate with an Occupying tyrant while that tyrant -in this case Israel- is holding your country and your people prisoner. Obviously what happens when an Occupier REALLY wants Peace is that the Occupier FIRST gets OUT of the country of the people that they want peace with. The Colonists did not negotiate with Britain while the British were attempting to hold the Colonies prisoner by military Occupation. Only after the British GOT out did we make peace. We did not 'Defeat' the country of Britain - all we did was drive the British from America militarily. We did not defeat the British empire.

Nor did the Irish negotiate with Britian Until Britain agreed to Get Out of Ireland. However the Irish brought the British to the negotiating table by bringing the war to Britain by setting off bombs in London. Only after sufficient IRA bombings in England did Britain agree to leave Ireland.

The Arab suicide bombers are noble and incredibly brave. We always attempt to denigrate the 'bravery ' of an enemy by Rededining what we think 'bravery' should mean. Well like or not both the Japanese and the Nazis were VERY brave. BIAS just causes one to try to tell an enemy what 'we' think should be regarded as brave. Everybody talks about killed children and women. There have been scores of killed children and women on both sides. If the Israelis would Withdraw entirely from the country they are occupying there would be no reason for suicide bombing. Arafat has said REPEATEDLY that the PLO accepts the state of Israel within its 1967 UN mandated borders.

The Israelis with American military and financial support have ALL the armament cards. Those groups suppoting the Palestinians MUST fight the Overwhelming military might of Israel that is occupying their land ANY Way they can. Both Sides Accuse the other of TARGETING children and women . Niether side actually targets children and women. The Arabs blowup the Invading Israelis where ever they Can!! Which is entirely understandable to anyone who can imagine the army oif another people Occupying your country and dominating your families.

It is perfectly right for Arab patriots to keep on suicide bombing Israelis until the Israelis Get out of their land. Both sides are killing children and women in this conflict. If either side would have more Ability to choose not to involve women and children in their killings - It would be the Israeli side, for the Israelis have the overwhelming power and technology to target whom they wish - when they wish. The Arabs who support the Palestinians have only their only primitive weapons of explosives concealed on their bodies and so do not have the power of such a choice.

The Israelis are Clearly the oppressors here and the group motivated by the evil of land-greed. If Palestinians make Israelis feel 'Unsafe' then if you are an Israeli Get out of Palestine. WHY ARE you Settled on their land - if you want to feel 'safe'? Of course they are going to try to kill you. What would you expect? If Israelis feel Unsafe around Palestinians then get ALL Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians OUt of Israel and don't let any such even leave a plane there . And definitely don't allow any border crossings. The country with the 5th largest army in the world, Israel, can definitely Police the borders of a country smaller than New England. And to get out of that unsafe land of Palestine - All the Israelis have to do is walk back to Israel - whiich they should have done just prior to the killing of Prime minister Rabin who was in the process of implementing that withdrawel. AS we know many Israelis did not want let the Palestinians have that land back.

The Solution has always been this and will always be this - Israel to get Out of Palestine .

growler

but you are ignoring the divine right of the jewish settlers to do whatever they want , it's obvious that they're god is right and that the palestinian's and they're islamic god fella should feck off back to the sand dunes from whence they came.

DiscoStu

Originally posted by growler
but you are ignoring the divine right of the jewish settlers to do whatever they want , it's obvious that they're god is right and that the palestinian's and they're islamic god fella should feck off back to the sand dunes from whence they came.

real constructive post there growler.

And for your information it is all the same god.

---

The Arab suicide bombers are noble and incredibly brave.

you've got to be joking, right? They're murderers and nothing else. Just as any troops that intentially target women & children are murderers.

growler

i was being ironic , but thank you DiscoStu for clarifying that theological question that has been bothering countless millions for some time "it's the same god" ... that should bring many conflicts to an immediate halt then!

TrevorOcon

Answer to Klaz's: questioning a line for Effect even when it has already been answered - post below

>

---

The Arab suicide bombers are noble and incredibly brave.

you've got to be joking, right? They're murderers and nothing else. Just as any troops that intentially target women & children are murderers.<

As you Knew the answer was right there for you below what you quoted:
:We always attempt to denigrate the 'bravery ' of an enemy by Redefining what we think 'bravery' should mean. Well like or not both the Japanese(Kamakaze suicide pilots) and the Nazis were VERY brave. Bill Meyer on "Politically Incorrect" showed the people who were calling the 9-11 suicide
pilots 'not brave or cowards' as the fools that they were. BIAS just causes one to try to tell an enemy what 'we' think should be regarded as brave. Everybody talks about killed children and women. There have been scores of killed children and women on both sides. If the Israelis would Withdraw entirely from the country they are occupying there would be no reason for suicide bombing.
+++++++++++++++ And reguarding 'Targeting children' - clearly the ability and actual
carrying out the targeting of children has been more Israeli than Palestinian.

Both sides are killing children and women in this conflict. If either side would have more Ability to choose not to involve women and children in their killings - It would be the Israeli side, for the Israelis have the overwhelming power and technology to target whom they wish - when they wish. The Arabs who support the Palestinians have only their only primitive weapons of explosives concealed on their bodies and so do not have the power of such a choice.

But you knew all this. You read all this. So you ask the question and post the quote
for Effect on others - as if I had not already made these points on it.

Meh

Originally posted by TrevorOcon
The Arabs who support the Palestinians have only their only primitive weapons of explosives concealed on their bodies and so do not have the power of such a choice.

Ah, so the Israeli army is rounding up Hamas members and forcing them at gunpoint to suicide-bomb cafes and nightclubs? Get real -- of course the Palestinians have a choice. And they choose to murder innocent civilians.

TrevorOcon

Meh - the post you quoted did not say 'no choice' but that the Palestinians did not have SUCH a choice as Israel has as Israel continues the VIOLENCE and killing of its 30 YEAR military Occupation of Palestine.

Sure the Palestinians have a 'choice' of not Violently resisting the Violent Occupation of their land - but If the Arabs supporting the Palestinians are to use Violence to resist the Violent occupation of their land [and they should Violently resist that] then they with out any regular army or technologically US Supported Weapons such as Israel has - will have to Strike wherever they can - and this will mean that children will at times be in the group of Israelis at which they strike with their pitiful self-destroying bombs

And the Israelis have a CHOICE TOO! They can GET OUT of Another People's land and stop holding the Palestinian People prisoner. That's the Israeli CHOICE - a choice that would end the reason for suicide bombing reisistance [ As Arafat and the PLO have definitely state that they agree and accept Israel's Nationhood WITHING THE UN Madated 1967 BORDERS. All ISREAL Has to do is GET OUT OF Palestine.

The Israelis with all the Surveillance technology Communications and US Weapons support have far more such a Choice of not killing children - yet Israel does kill Palestinian children also.

TrevorOcon

(Well switching back and forth -using the the "back" arrow will repost your post - at least on my computer) that's the reason for this empty post space. I don't see an erase button)

--- TrevorOcon -- I said the killing of women & children by both sides ( either Troops, or Palestinian groups) is considered by myself to be murder. However the comment was made that suicide bombers are brave & noble. Its this i disagree with. They go out, and target areas where it would be hard not to take out civilians. If you took all the attacks from the last 2 years, how many of them actually went for non-military targets? And i'm not saying that Israeeli troops are outside of this argument. I said already that ANY Troops that kill women & children are Murderers.

I just think that the Suicide Bombers are more pre-meditated. The killings made by the Israeli Army, are alot less than that, of these "noble" suicide murderers.

Hobbes

Originally posted by Meh
Ah, so the Israeli army is rounding up Hamas members and forcing them at gunpoint to suicide-bomb cafes and nightclubs? Get real -- of course the Palestinians have a choice. And they choose to murder innocent civilians.

Actually your kind of correct Meh. Take these incidents (all of which have happened).

- If your father a taxi driver was left in a settler zone for three days (without food and water) after having his papers taken by soliders for no reason and if he leaves his taxi or the area without papers will be shot and killed (by law). Do you think that is fair?

- Your father (actually different taxi driver) wrestles and stops a terrorist bomber that has gotten into thier cab from killing people but hurts himself in the process when the bomb detonates. While just after entering hospital for the wounds he gets, he is dragged from his wheelchair by police and held for four days (because he is Muslim living in Isreal) and eventually let go innocent. Do you think that is fair?

- Your child/children are killed by a bomb planted by Israeli police force who claim they didn't plant it and claim your kids blew themselves up. Later on when it's proven it was in fact an assinsation job every officer involved in killing the children are not arrested or diciplined. Do you think that is fair?

- Your injured and friends are killed after Israeli police force fire a missile into a car in a crowded area to kill one man and end up killing passerbys. No one is arrested for it. Do you think that is fair?

- Israeli forces drop a bomb on your house killing your family and everyone else in the building because they wanted to kill one person. Do you think that is fair?

- Israeli forces missile attack a palistine police station to kill a terrorist that has been jailed by Palistine police at the request of Israel (they just wouldn't hand him over as they didn't feel they would get a fair trial). Instead of killing the person they end up killing the police and allowing the prisoner to escape to kill other Israelis. Do you think that is fair?

- Your watching a documentry about how the brave Isreali soliders are dealing with terrorists. You watch as on TV in front of a documentry crew the captain of police team tells his men to start laying explosives to an apartment complex while people are still in it just to arrest one person. Do you think that is fair?

- Your parents are shot and killed while your mother who is pregnant are trying to get to a hospital through a roadblock set up a by Israelis. Do you think that is fair?

- Your house burns to the ground and people are killed because Israeli police refuse to allow the fire engine to get to your area.

- A solider comes to a red cross building full of food and claims a terrorist is hiding in the building. You let them search the place, after finding nothing they then go and blow the building to bits, meaning a lot of people will starve. Do you think that is fair?

Yes it's pretty fuking sad that Palistine terrorists do what they do, but don't be so fuking niave that they just are born that way. If Israel quit 90% of the **** it pulls the terrorists wouldn't have nearly as many people willing to blow themselves up.

Bonkey: As for annexing more land...not a chance. Cannot and will not happen. Were Israel to grab more land - even a square meter - the arab reaction would lead to a war in the Middle East which would destabilise the entire region.

Bonkey, Israel have been taking land since 9/11 and haven't given any back since.

I think both sides are as fuked up as each other, but it erks the crap out of me when people claim one side is "Right".

Meh

Originally posted by Hobbes
...incidents...

I agree with you that this behaviour by the Israeli security forces is reprehensible. But it doesn't excuse or mitigate in any way the appalling behaviour of the Palestinian suicide bombers. Wrong + wrong !=right.

Sure the Palestinians have a 'choice' of not Violently resisting the Violent Occupation of their land - but If the Arabs supporting the Palestinians are to use Violence to resist the Violent occupation of their land [and they should Violently resist that] then they with out any regular army or technologically US Supported Weapons such as Israel has - will have to Strike wherever they can - and this will mean that children will at times be in the group of Israelis at which they strike with their pitiful self-destroying bombs

It's perfectly possible for the Palestinians to violently resist Israeli occupation by targetting the Israeli security forces rather than targetting civilians. But they prefer to deliberately aim at innocent civilians.

TrevorOcon

This is Meh's statement below:

>"It's perfectly possible for the Palestinians to violently resist Israeli occupation by targetting the Israeli security forces rather than targetting civilians. But they prefer to deliberately aim at innocent civilians."<

Airing of Biases and debate are one thing - decending to pure nonsense is another.

Been to Haifa lately Meh ? I have - as officer on a vessel. Not even a tourist can approach a group of IDF men let alone a barracks, or military instalation without first from a Distance lifting up their clothing and then being searched by a single soldier while others cover him with weapons from a distance. WHAT ARE YOU SAYING Here, Man? Every military and civil installation in the country and the Occupied Palestinian Lands is Guarded and by search from a Distance. IDF patrols CONTOL All approaches to them - They've got the scientific weapons and the Organized numbers to do it.

The Arabs in support of the Palestinians have NOTHING but their bodies and homemade bombs; No Control in either Israel or in Occupied Palestine. The word OCCUPIED in the military sense - you're familiar with what that means, right? Palestine is Heavily Occupied - Meaning that you can't approach the Israeli soldiers -at least the ones who are STILL IN UNIFORM - who are holding your country in OCCUPATION. As Arab Freedom Fighters you can only approach those Israeli male soldiers who HAVE GONE BACK TO CIVILIAN LIFE - WHOSE COMPULSORY TERM AS IDF MEN IS OVER. These Ex-Israeli Soldier-'Civilians' are often among women and children. ((Some of them may even attempt as often as they can to be around women and children in the hopes that there is less liklihood that they will be attacked as the Occupiers of another people's land - which is what they ARE.))

The ONLY option that those Arabs who wish the Israeli government's Occupation of Palestine to stop so Palestine can be restored to the Palestinians - have, is just as the IRISH had, to attack these 'Civilian'-Soldiers WHEREVER they can get close to them.

Your claim that it would be possible for the suicide-Patriots to attack only army men is TOTALLY without ANY factual basis.

TrevorOcon

Look Klaz - I have to grant you the majority of your point expressed in your last post. However - What is the Biggest Point here? THe Point is that Israel is doing the first and Fundamental EVIL by REMAINING in Violent OCCUPATION of the Palestinians and the land of Palestine. -MOST-, any Violence towards a people Violently Occupying another counrty is perfectably expectable and Right. They want it to stop ? All they have to do is GET OUT. GET OUT.

The Israelis hope Somebody might still believe their land-grab mantra - they use it because - There is nothing else they can think of::
"Oh if we get out we will Still have the same suicide bombings - so we might as well stay." Total Bull****

NO ONE who is rational Believes that bull**** - so why keep trying to make it fly? It's not going to fly, Klaz. The majority of the World is not 'antisemite' - the majority of the World is simply anti-bull**** and anti-Israeli occupation.

Since their is No Other Way the Palestinians can Violently Resist - the Violent Israeli Occupation but by Patriotic-suicide bombing, then even more tragically, - women and children will be colateral damage. Sure you can CLAIM that the Palestinians Target Women and Children and the Women and Children are not 'collateral' damage -

BUT

That is Just as BIASED as Palestinians CLAIMING that Women and Children are Targeted when they KNOW that women and children are there in an Entire Building that they Missle destroy in order to 'assassinate' a 'terrorist' Patriot.


Just two sides of the same degree of BIAS, man.

TrevorOcon

And remember, Klaz, you started this thread in the hopes that somebody would buy that lame old Dennis Miller canard that the Palestinians are not really a people and that there never was such a thing as Palestine.

If you did that for a joke - then its a profoundly sad and painful thing to start joking about while the terrible suffering and the Israeli interrogation TORTURES go on.

The Noble Israeli officers and non-commission army men in ISRAEL who are in the group The Courage to Refuse (to continue to oppress the Palestinian with Occupation) - know it is no joke. These brave Israeli fighting men have had the courage to Go to Jail rather than to continue to destroy the Palestinians to keep the Occupation going.

If masses of men in the Israeli Army are refusing to serve in the Palestine Occupying forces - it ought to be evident even to Israeli Land-grab supporters that - there is No moral - or Truthful basis for Israel to be in invasion and Occupation of Palestine.

Clintons Cat

As for annexing more land...not a chance. Cannot and will not happen. Were Israel to grab more land - even a square meter - the arab reaction would lead to a war in the Middle East which would destabilise the entire region. The effect this would have on the world oil market is easily imaginable, as is the knock-on crippling of the entire global economy.

Israel is currently building a "peace wall" between itself and the occupied territories,based along loosely the 1967 boarders.The wall when completed will be more expensive per square mile than the Berlin Wall
one of the residual effects is that it seperates owners of palestinian farms (note farmers not bombers ) from their land,the nearest access gate when the wall is completed can be anything up to 20 miles away,through which anything up to 20,000 people will attempt to pass daily on their way into israel to work.Failiure to work their own land have draconian penalties under laws dating back to ottoman times and retained on the statute books Untilled Land is susceptible to repossesion and redistribution by the state.
Secondly palestinian homes in the path of the wall and the designated "no mans land" are being demolished to make way for said wall.
Not to mention the well publisicised demolition of homes to provide a security corridor around the settlements that will in time follow the standard pattern established by likud of then redeveloping the area with more settlers housing,which then necessitates the demolition of further houses ad infinitum.



Jayyous and Qalqilya
Pengon Labels Security Fence Aparthied Wall

gurramok

Originally posted by Meh
I agree with you that this behaviour by the Israeli security forces is reprehensible. But it doesn't excuse or mitigate in any way the appalling behaviour of the Palestinian suicide bombers. Wrong + wrong !=right.

Something like about over 2000 palestinian civilians have been executed by israeli soldiers, alot of them very young people.
Has there been any prosecutions to make account of these killings??
Some here seem to think that israel army is suppose to be legit and enforce law and the likes of arafat is suppose to be a terrorist. (we all know that suicide bombers are wrong in what they are doing)
In my view both are equally culpable of killings, but more so the israelis for tolerating mass killings. A lack of accountability for these killings is a serious lack of judgement by the israeli gov.
It gives the attitude as if a palestinian life is worthless.
This is where it leads to 'wrong + wrong nearly equal right' for many palestinians in their quest for staehood.

TrevorOcon

A true and very cogent post 'gurramok' . Most of what you said I think is rarely ever said - or if it is ever said - it is usually said incompletely and ineptly.

However it is not true that 'we all know that suicide bombers are wrong in what they are doing' .

Originally posted by gurramok
...........(we all know that suicide bombers are wrong in what they are doing)...................

Negative. Many believe the suicide bombers Under the Circumstances to be Right.

They are bombing the People of an Occupying Invader - If the Occupying Invading People keep their children with them in public while their country is holding another county in bodage - Of Course they are going to be bombed. When the Israelis bombed the Arabs with the First Strike of the 67 War did they refuse to bomb where they knew there would be some children ? Of course not. The Israelis bombed the targets that they thought would help their mission - and nothing was called off to save children.


The 'Propaganda' is wrong - in attempting to spin the Perception of what the suicide bombers Inteding to do. The Israeli propaganda - while at the same time that Israelis are intentionally targeting and destroying a building that they know may have women and children in it to assassinate One major terrorist - goes on to accuse the Palestinians of 'Targeting women and children' when they blow up a mixed crowd of Israelis that has all sexes and ages in it. I don't think either adversary side is actually 'targeting women and children'.

As VERY CLEARLY explained in my recent post above - the Palestinians having NO sophisticated US weapon support and No free country to operate from have No Choice if they are to Violently Resist the Violent invasion and theft-occupation of Palestinian land - but to strike at ANY group of THAT INVADING PEOPLE that they can Reach.

The Israelis with the power of the latest to-date Weapons and Military control can much more target whom they wish. The Arab suicide bombers supporting the Palestinians - can't choose to avoid collateral child damage because in almost all cases the INVADERS Have their children with them When they are Out of Uniform and approachable in Civilian life. If UNTIL, the Israeli Occuupiers and Invaders Get Out of Palestine - they wish to not have their children bombed with them - then they will have to keep children Out of Public at all times until Israel is willing to let Palestine go free.

The suicide bombers are freedom-fighting patriots who sacrifice their own lives to take the lives of the Invaders to drive them Out of their homes and land.