7 Jan - "Comreg to issue flat rate decision today" Irish Times

vinnyfitz

Report, by Jamie Smith, predicts that a decision will be issued today. But the report does not speculate on the likely resulting price for flat rate products.

viking

text anyone?

pork99

But the report does not speculate on the likely resulting price for flat rate products.

Lets hope this results in retail products costing about E20-E25 pm. If the retail price is greater than that we're all wasting our time!

JohnK

Are there any rough estimates about when it will actually start being offered?

SkepticOne

Irish Times Text:

Internet service providers and telecoms firms should be able to provide flat rate internet services within a few months following a decision that will be published later today by the Commission for Communications Regulation.

The Commission has decided to force Eircom to provide a wholesale flat rate internet product to its rivals - including Esat BT - in a move that should enable its competitors to begin offering consumers a retail product shortly.

The decision by the Commission follows public lobbying campaign by IrelandOffline and the recent intervention by the Minister for Communications, Mr Dermot Ahern.

Last month Mr Ahern published a draft policy directing to the Commission which focused on directing the introduction of a flat-rate internet access product.

The Commission will have to report its progress on enforcing flat rate access one month after the draft policy direction is finalised.

Flat rate internet access products enable consumers to pay a monthly fee for unlimited internet access at any time of the day or night using a standard dial-up internet modem connected to a PC.

Many technology experts believe flat rate services encourage people to use the internet more as it removes the fear of higher phone bills.

Consumers in at least eight states in the European Union already have access to flat rate services but opposition to the product from Eircom has severely delayed the introduction of the product.

Eircom has consistently opposed introducing a flat rate internet service of its own over the past fiew years because it believes this would prove uneconomic.

It has also failed to negotiate deals with any of its rivals preventing them from offering a service.

Eircom's dominant position within the market - the company's telecoms network enters nearly every home and business in the State - means rivals need to gain wholesale access to its network to offer consumers a flat rate product.

In June, 2002, Esat BT, an one other telecoms firm, requested a wholesale flat rate service from Eircom.

But commercial negotiations finally broke down between the two parties in late November.

But today's decision notice will outline a timetable for the phased introduction of a flat rate internet product and finalise the last details of the product description.

The Commission is expected to argue that the provision of flat rate internet access will promote competition, contribute to the development of the Irish Telecoms Market and promote the interest of users within the community.

It will also reiterate that provision of a wholesale flat rate product to rivals is mandatory for incumbent operators under EU legislation.

Some industry sources have suggested that the new Commission may not have the legal powers to force Eircom to introduce a wholesale flat rate product that can be used by rivals.

But in a recent paper the commission wrote: "The provision of the wholesale product FRIACO (flat rate internet access) is under EU legislation mandatory whether and incumbent offers such a retail service or where there is reasonable request from another licenced operator for such a wholesale product."

thegills

I never paid much attention to Jamie Smyth's reports.

spongebob

I am not a big fan of Jamies either.

As ENN and Businessworld.IE and have this too I must conclude that the Comreg PR Bunnies have been busy with their non-attributable briefings to the media. If it wasnp't Comreg then it must have been the Dept of Comms instead.

Our Press Release rehashing brethern are not capable of digging this kind of stuff up for themselves at the same time as we know well.

M

Xterminator

Yes,

Today's the day the new regulator will prove its worth!

Sssshhhh! If you listen carefully, you can just hear the echo of the bubble bursting in Eircom HQ!

X

dahamsta

Sssshhhh! If you listen carefully, you can just hear the echo of the bubble bursting in Eircom HQ!

Or possibly a collective yelp of joy from the Eircom legal whores.

"Oh Goody, a new toy!"

adam

dahamsta

http://www.comreg.ie/docs/ComReg0302.doc

[ Effectively, the end of February is the schedule for completion. ]

[ Sorry, that might have been a bit misleading. I meant that the development process needs to be completed by end February. ]

adam

SkepticOne

Looks like we will have to wait until after June 27 for any retail offerings. No mention of price in the document.

spongebob

Did I say Easter?

Its June actually

From the Decision

In advance of this process being agreed ComReg directs that all circuits and switch ports ordered for this FRIACO service on or before 12th March 2003 will be provided by 27th June 2003 unless constrained by availability of transmission or switching equipment.

vinnyfitz

Comreg says:
ComReg believes the introduction of FRIACO at a retail level is a complex process. ComReg considers it necessary to ensure that the introduction of this service is on a non-discriminatory basis and that all OLOs must be free to decide the network coverage they require, up to and including complete national coverage, prior to take up of the wholesale offering by any operator.
Why, I wonder, does this need 3 months after everything else is sorted? Can this sort of planning not be undertaken in tandem with finalising the technicalities?

vinnyfitz

ComReg Sets Timetable for FRIACO

ComReg has put in place the next steps enabling consumers to have access to flat rate, predictable internet access charges.

In a Decision Notice issued today ComReg have set out a detailed timescale to be met so that operators can order a wholesale FRIACO (Flat Rate Internet Access Call Origination) product by end February 2003. This will enable the provision of a retail offering by operators no later than the end of June 2003. From that date, operators, including eircom, who wish to supply a flat rate internet access offering to the public will be in a position to do so, as the full arrangements including network, processes and costs of availing of the wholesale product will be in place.

Following requests from a number of operators in July 2002 for a FRIACO service, eircom engaged in a series of bi-lateral discussions until November 2002. To assist in expediting the process ComReg then established a special forum which further assisted in developing the product in line with that available in many other countries across Europe. However in view of increasing demands for a flat rate offering from consumers and because of a number of technical and commercial constraints ComReg have now intervened to formalise the definition of the product description and to set out a timetable for its introduction on a phased basis. ComReg envisages the development of other FRIACO products in the future.

The programme set out now is in line with the thinking set out by the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources in his draft policy direction of December 2002. Building on the momentum that this initiative brings, ComReg looks forward to working with the industry to meet the demands of the consumer by making a FRIACO product a reality in Ireland.

spongebob

It may be available in certain areas 'WITH' capacity in mid March 2003. It seems unlikely that it would be rolled out unless it is available Nationwide to all OLO's but ya live in hope that this could be done on a phased basis starting in Mid March.

Remember that the legal vermin haven't gotten their teeth into this yet and that €50k a day spent in the High Court is significantly less money than Eircom make every day on per second billing.

M

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Looks like we will have to wait until after June 27 for any retail offerings. No mention of price in the document.

More heel dragging, we were supposed to see developments at the the start of the new year ffs.

highlight

If you read it, the wholesale product will be available in Feb. The delay is for the industry to get their orders in for the interconnect links so they could compete with eircom

MDR

Which means Eircom retail will be the first provider able to offer it, score for Eircom ... ah well it is their network I suppose ... can't be too begudging they are gonna lose a heap of cash outta this.

VeeEmmy

Originally posted by Muck
Did I say Easter?

Its June actually

From the Decision
quote:

---

In advance of this process being agreed ComReg directs that all circuits and switch ports ordered for this FRIACO service on or before 12th March 2003 will be provided by 27th June 2003 .....unless constrained by availability of transmission or switching equipment.

Is not that "unless" word worth noticing?

Methinks I am becoming a hopeless pessimist.....

BoneCollector

Which means Eircom retail will be the first provider able to offer it

that could be.. but read there contract carfully its probably gonna tie you to a 12 month min contract and allow them to cut you off for abusing the service and still demand you pay them for the 12 month just like in there DSL contract.

Pretty crummy!
IMO errcom should be avoided and all other parties should offer similar service close to time even if they are not officialy ready, and gain a good customer base.

neverhappen

This part of the FRIACO product description sounds ominous...

· Where the FRIACO traffic arising at an individual RSU impacts the quality of service for normal traffic from that RSU, ComReg may permit eircom to limit or control the FRIACO traffic at that RSU on a non-discriminatory basis in accordance with the appropriate notification process


At least it says *may permit*

Dustaz

I think a quick 'Well Done' to comreg is in order here. Still waiting on any legal challenges sure, but this is the nearest weve been to FRIACO in years.

(does june count as q2? i bet its bloody q3 and eircom have managed to fleece me out of a pint on a bet )

dahamsta

does june count as q2?

Q1 = January February March
Q2 = April May June
...

adam

LFCFan

it's hard to believe we're getting excited about a service that's been available all over the world for years and while we're fighting for decent service the rest of the world will be getting newer and better technologies. We're always gonna be a few years behind.

MDR

Its the change of attitude on COMREG's / Govt. part which is just as significant.

124124

Ireland set for flat-rate Net by June
By Matthew Clark

Flat-rate Internet should become a reality in Ireland by the end of June, after ComReg said it would force Eircom to sell the service to other telecoms.

The widely expected move follows years of bitter disputes over the provision of wholesale FRIACO (Flat-Rate Internet Access Call Origination), with entrant telecoms, lobbying groups and consumers all calling for former monopoly Eircom to begin selling the service. With a FRIACO decision in place, Eircom and other operators will be able to sell consumer Internet services that allow users to remain connected to the Net for unlimited periods of time at a fixed monthly price.

ComReg's Decision Notice, which was issued on Tuesday, will force Eircom to begin selling wholesale flat-rate Net services by the end of February 2003, with services available to consumers by the end of June 2003. The move comes after the Minister for Communications, Dermot Ahern, published a draft policy directive late last year that, among other things, directed the communications regulator to focus on the introduction of flat-rate Internet access.

Amid all of the clamouring for flat-rate Internet in the press and among consumers over the past three years, ComReg's predecessor, the ODTR, was unable to force Eircom to introduce the service because no formal request had been made. It was only in July 2002 that two Irish telecoms formally requested that Eircom introduce such a facility, and when negotiations broke down in November, ComReg was able to step in.

Telecoms in many other EU states already offer flat-rate Internet, including firms in the UK, the Netherlands, France, Spain, Portugal and Italy. FRIACO-based Net access is also currently available in Germany, although a recent court decision there is thought to have put the service at risk.

David Long, the chairman of pressure group Ireland Offline, one of the most vocal organisations pushing for the introduction of the service in Ireland, described the news as important. "We are delighted with this. It is exactly what we wanted and have been working towards for almost two years now," Long said.

He added, however, that with no formal pricing structure in place, the group remained cautious and was concerned that Eircom's wholesale rates could be prohibitively expensive. The ComReg decision said only that Eircom's product must be "cost-oriented" and a ComReg spokesperson refused to elaborate on this. Long said any price above EUR35 per month for consumers would be excessive.

Esat BT also greeted the news with enthusiasm, with the firm's director of communications, Una McGirr, saying the announcement was satisfying. "But the devil is in the detail," McGirr warned, suggesting that further industry wrangling could hinder the launch. When Esat begins selling a flat-rate service, the company is aiming to price it between EUR25 and EUR30 per month.

Other industry watchers said that they expect Eircom to fight ComReg's decision tooth and nail. One insider commented, "For Eircom to spend EUR50,000 a day fighting this in the High Court would be a small sum if they really did not want to introduce the service." For its part, Eircom said it had no immediate comment on ComReg's decision.

A ComReg spokesperson said that Eircom had no legal basis to resist the order, pointing to EU legislation which says that any dominant fixed-line telecom must meet "certain obligations" in providing access to the network if "reasonable requests" from entrant telecoms are made.

Cork

I think theat if Eircom's competitors want gains - they'll have to start looking for market share.

Let competition begin.

It has been a good start for both Comreg & the Minister - As for the rest of us ..........we'll have to wait a little longer.


I wonder how the mouse is feeling?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by 124124
Other industry watchers said that they expect Eircom to fight ComReg's decision tooth and nail. One insider commented, "For Eircom to spend EUR50,000 a day fighting this in the High Court would be a small sum if they really did not want to introduce the service." For its part, Eircom said it had no immediate comment on ComReg's decision.

Who could this insider be?

spongebob

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Who could this insider be?

50k a day, funny how thats precisely the figure I arrived at in this Post a week ago.

So it was in the Public Domain all along and then an 'insider' read it and NOW /me wants royalties from Ralph and the lads in ENN for making them look like they had researched the story and all that.

Haruuuummmppphhhh

Serbian

FRIACO-based Net access is also currently available in Germany, although a recent court decision there is thought to have put the service at risk.

Got a bit worried about this when I saw it first, thinking that Eircom might actually have something to stand on if they challenge FRIACO in court. However a quick search revealed:

"The ruling by the court effectively halts a decision by the German regulator RegTP demanding DT [Deutsche Telekom] be required to offer a wholesale flat-rate Internet access product (known in the acronym-friendly world of telecoms as FRIACO) to its competitors. This is on the basis that DT no longer offers such a product at the retail level."

MDR

yikes

124124

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Who could this insider be?

That rat.. may be!

sceptre

Originally posted by 124124
He added, however, that with no formal pricing structure in place, the group remained cautious and was concerned that Eircom's wholesale rates could be prohibitively expensive. The ComReg decision said only that Eircom's product must be "cost-oriented" and a ComReg spokesperson refused to elaborate on this. Long said any price above EUR35 per month for consumers would be excessive.

Too right. Nice to get that in - flatrate at €100 a month wouldn't be much good to anyone

crawler

It will all be down to the wholesale price.......if it follows the DSL lead then a wholesale price of over €30.00 would be on the cards.......now that would be pants.

Still - well done Comreg and I think a thanks to IOFFL too!

SkepticOne

Just a quick FYI: Chairman David Long is currently being interviewed by RTE Television news and will be appearing on the 9 o clock news.

MDR

nuts I wanted to say that ... :mad:

ihatemushrooms

€30 a month would be good in my opinion but what will the T`s &C`s be like? I would fear a cap would be put in place, I would guess around 150 hrs a month.

Any thoughts?

MDR

BT just recentily introduced a 150hr cap on their retail product... which works out at about 5hrs a day ... which is ample for residental users me thinks ?

JohnK

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Just a quick FYI: Chairman David Long is currently being interviewed by RTE Television news and will be appearing on the 9 o clock news.

I'll be watching for him

spongebob

Don't laff.

Eircom say that their DSL is 30 times faster than 56k

The Cap on that is 3GB so they will introduce 1/30th the Cap for the slower product which in RatSpEEk means:

'ye are no worse off lads'

M

SkepticOne

Originally posted by JohnK
I'll be watching for him

The interview is taking place is a mildly ironic location.

neverhappen

Originally posted by Serbian

"The ruling by the court effectively halts a decision by the German regulator RegTP demanding DT [Deutsche Telekom] be required to offer a wholesale flat-rate Internet access product (known in the acronym-friendly world of telecoms as FRIACO) to its competitors. This is on the basis that DT no longer offers such a product at the retail level." [/B]

reading further....

-
The flip-side of this regulatory coin is that when incumbents aren’t using a wholesale product themselves, they have no obligation to offer it to others, and this is the justification for the court’s decision. The same reasoning has been applied by regulators in other European countries who have refused to mandate FRIACO provision by incumbents who don’t provide a retail flat-rate product.

Glimmer of hope?

However, the new EU regulatory framework for electronic communications makes clear that the non-discrimination argument is not the only one which regulators and ISPs can use to force FRIACO to be provided. This offers a glimmer of hope for the likes of AOL, and those who depend on their services.

The new EU rules contain a provision for national regulators to require incumbents to meet reasonable requests for access to network elements where denial of access would hinder the emergence of a sustainable competitive market at the retail level.

This provision could easily be used by regulators keen to see the introduction of FRIACO in countries where incumbents are not currently offering retail flat-rate packages. It could also be used in the appeals process against the Cologne court’s decision.
--



and checking out the comms regulation act part 5 sect 57 ...
-
(7) In making a decision in relation to a dispute, the Commission
may impose conditions for physical infrastructure sharing and such
conditions may include, but not necessarily be limited to—
(a) conditions in respect of conformity with the relevant standards
relating to establishment, operation, maintenance
and repair of electronic communications infrastructure
and physical infrastructure,
(b) compliance with essential requirements or the maintenance
of the quality of electronic communications services or
both, or
(c) rules for the apportionment of the costs of physical infrastructure
sharing,
and the Commission shall notify, in writing, the network operator
and physical infrastructure provider, as appropriate, of the reasons
for such conditions.
-

IANAL, but it seems to me that comreg are acting within their remit here...
-

SkepticOne

Originally posted by neverhappen
reading further....

-
The flip-side of this regulatory coin is that when incumbents aren�t using a wholesale product themselves, they have no obligation to offer it to others, and this is the justification for the court�s decision. The same reasoning has been applied by regulators in other European countries who have refused to mandate FRIACO provision by incumbents who don�t provide a retail flat-rate product.

I'm not a lawyer either, but ComReg's directive lays down the points of law involved. If Eircom had a retail flat-rate offering then it would be mandatory for them to offer a wholesale one. That is all the regulation says. Neither the incumbent, nor the regulator would have any choice in this instance.

This does not imply the converse, i.e., if Eircom don't have a retail offer, they can't be made to provide a wholesale one.

I'm not familiar with the German case. Were two OLOs negotiating for six months? Did these negotiations break down? Did the the German regulator dot all the i's and cross the t's.

highlight

The laws are different. FRIACO was directed under a 'reasonable request' approach, not because of non discrimination

De Rebel

Nowhere in the Decision Notice does it mention whether the remit of this notice is analogue 28k/56k only, or whether it extends to include ISDN access. Has this been covered anywhere? Are there any assurances or do we just wait and see?

Other than that it seems quite welcome. The timeline is eerily reminiscent of that prepared by one VinneyFitz the day the directive was first announced!

Shocking to see that Muck fella “outed” as an industry insider. And there I was thinking he was a sound man.

PiE

Originally posted by De Rebel
Shocking to see that Muck fella “outed” as an industry insider. And there I was thinking he was a sound man.

Hehe, scandalous :]

Hurrah for FRIACO finally being within touching distance but June? Jeez...

The interview is taking place is a mildly ironic location.

If it's in or around the Eircon offices... plyd :]

SkepticOne

Well, I guess this is another one for Yellum's Timeline of Significant Events.

January 7, 2003: ComReg issues FRIACO directive to Eircom.

BoneCollector

BT just recentily introduced a 150hr cap on their retail product... which works out at about 5hrs a day ... which is ample for residental users me thinks

Curious though!
if we do the math

56kbs at 150 hrs pm for €30 pm
Gives us the same 3GB cap as errcom ADSL (for how much a month!?)
So we should be getting adsl with a 3GB cap for €30 pm as it would be the same as fraico 56k 150 hrs

Which all goes to show how rediculously OVERPRICED! errcoms adsl realy is!

David C

Originally posted by SkepticOne
June 7, 2003: ComReg issues FRIACO directive to Eircom.

January, no?

vinnyfitz

Tonight's RTE news web headline on the subject:
Many Internet users are likely to have cheaper access to the web from June next year.

Perhaps they have been talking to Eircom's lawyers and know more than we do? Or perhaps they are caught in a time warp....:D

kamobe

There'll be a nice article in today's indo referring Comregs decision. IOFFL get a nice mention:

According to David Long, chairman of lobby group Ireland Offline, a retail offer of anything above €35 a month would not be a goer.

The ComReg notice was welcomed by many market participants including Esat BT, Ireland Offline and the Chambers of Commerce of Ireland.

My favourite paragraph is as follows:

Market watchers said that the notice is similar to one issued to BT in Britain by Oftel back in 2000 that resulted in FRIACO being supplied in the market there within six months of the order.

Here's hoping....

Article here.

EDIT:

I also stumbled accross a similiar article on Eircomnet (of all places!) which is also worth a read