Whats it like to be a programmer?

l3rian

i searched + found answers

Hobbes

Well don't ruin the suspense. Post it.

Repli

Yeah tell us =D
I heard its the most boring job in the world but the money is good

hussey

Yeah but if your just out of college its V hard to get a 'good' programming job

I know loads of people who finished college with 2.1's and 2.2
and they cant get a job,
even know of 2 people with a 1.1 and they work in a bar.

money is decent but only for experienced people
from what I gathered from people who did get a job
avg starting was 23k .. two years ago avg was 23k irish!!

england/usa is the place to go for big bucks

Originally posted by Repli
Yeah tell us =D
I heard its the most boring job in the world but the money is good

The Corinthian

Originally posted by hussey
money is decent but only for experienced people

Problem with most graduates is they have to be effectively retrained upon entering the workforce, as most of what they learn in their degree is, for lack of a better term, academic in the real world. You’ll often get more practical experience from a Fás graduate than a CS one.

In addition to this there are way too many SC graduates who will have made their way through college cutting ’n pasting other peoples’ code.

Finally, there are too many who went into IT simply for the money, and have no vocation for it. Such people will earn a living in the long term, but rarely make the big bucks, as they’re uninterested in keeping their skills up as much as those with a genuine vocation for programming. Thankfully, the inflow of these has decreased since the dotcom collapse.

hussey

very true

TomTom

Entering the workplace from college does require you to undergo training and changes. Most degrees place you on work experience for about a year before you finish your course. But as was pointed out alot of companies do things differently to others, such as standards and regulations. In my opinion it has to be a boring job but in the states the money is supposed to be good, espicall if you sign your life to micro$oft. I have a probramming job over there if I ever decide to take it. The only thing is I would feel out of dept completely.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by TomTom
In my opinion it has to be a boring job but in the states the money is supposed to be good

The only thing is I would feel out of dept completely.

You're actually one of the people I was talking about above.

You should consider law as an alternative profession.

hussey

why would you feel out of depth??
Not everyone that works for Ms will be a 'Bill Gates' type guy, most will be avg joe soaps. If your good at your job you shouldn't feel out of depth.

Merrion

As a developer with 12 years post graduate experience I think I have to correct a couple of misconceptions:

1. Programming pays well - Not true. Programming pays less than the bulk of post-graduate carrers. Compare it to law, dentistry, business management etc.

2. Computer science degree is not much use in the real world - Again, not true. Although the languages used in educational establishments (Ada and the like) are not used in many commercial situations the principals (relational database design, structured programming, object oriented programming etc.) are very useful and transferable.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Merrion
2. Computer science degree is not much use in the real world - Again, not true. Although the languages used in educational establishments (Ada and the like) are not used in many commercial situations the principals (relational database design, structured programming, object oriented programming etc.) are very useful and transferable.

A computer science degree will afford an individual with a number of skills that are certainly both very useful and transferable - in the long run. This, however, has to be weighed against their utility to a firm, in the short run, when they first graduate and they must be retrained.

Merrion

True - but companies that are only in IT for the short run would be better off outsourcing all their IT functions to companies with a longer term commitment to developing their staff...

The Corinthian

Good point, but this is not much use to a company in a recession who cannot afford to carry an unproductive resource. One could (arguably) almost as easily employ an inexperienced self or Fás taught developer and develop their good practices and principles, while still having a resource that could be productive from day one.

Nonetheless, I think this a secondary criticism of CS degrees. Primarily I would contend that the greatest problem with them, at present, is that they contain too high a concentration of people who should not be programming in the first place.

Talliesin

If you think programming would be a boring job you will be a crap programmer. If you are a crap programmer then hopefully you will be a failure (hopefully for you as well as for everyone else, since that failure will spur you into a career more suited for you).

CS degrees are great, I wish I'd done one, but only benefit programmers that would want to be programmers anyway.

CS degrees are only essential if you want a career in CS. Programming is not CS, it is a craft built on what CS tells us.

One big issue is that the education system doesn't put much emphasis on independant study and experimentation until third level, and even then it is a relatively minor thing until post-graduate level. Independant study and experimentation is essential to good programming.

If you are doing a CS degree, AND want to be a programmer then spend some time honing your craft and studying outside of the boundraries of your course and the initial period of adjustment to being a member of the workforce will be quicker and easier.

kayos

Originally posted by Merrion
True - but companies that are only in IT for the short run would be better off outsourcing all their IT functions to companies with a longer term commitment to developing their staff...

I think you are missing the point here. What I think Corinthian meant was when a company is hiring a grad they will not in the short term get any productive work out of them as they must be retrained.

For example in the company I work in if we hire grads they go into training for a couple of months before they are let any where near any projects for clients (there are some exceptions to this). Now during that time they have to be paid and the people training them can not do any production work. This is a double hit on the company in temrs of money and of tiring up resource's that could be used elsewhere.

Now if you hire a developer with exp the training time is greatly reduced and they can be put on projects at a much earlier stage.

The main advantage I see in taking on grads is the fact you can get a extremely talented programmer at a lower cost than a ok programmer with exp (sounds horrible I know, but its true).

kayos

Typedef

Originally posted by Talliesin

CS degrees are great, I wish I'd done one, but only benefit programmers that would want to be programmers anyway.

CS degrees are only essential if you want a career in CS. Programming is not CS, it is a craft built on what CS tells us.

Actually yeah, I'd pretty much agree with that.

I hope to get to do an evening thingy in Trinners in CS.
Ostensibly I'm interested in hardware programming, but, so long as the programming is difficult and the logic hard to understand I'm reasonably happy.

That's why programming SQL databases and VB frontends makes me crazy... it's too bloody easy in the final analysis, no challenge.

The only respite I get is the rare occasions I have to intercede on the three commercial Linux boxes I administer, which lets face it is never... since Linux is so bloody reliable.

So I whitter away my hours at home with various C, C++ or assembler projects.

What's it like to be a programmer?
Pretty badly paid at my level of things and as a Junior Developer, my opinion counts for s*hit, literally.

Par example, I'd like to install Linux on the main file server, not because I think I'm right, but because having done my time in Tech Support, I actually am right, when I extoll the virtues of Linux. I am far and away the most up to speed on the whole network administration side of things in work and since I was a tech support monkey.. most of the tech is laughably easy for me...

But management just don't want to hear it and have gone ahead 'despite my recomendation as the defacto sysadmin' and bought fifteen licences and Windows 2000 server.
They still need me to install it though.....
the cold war insues.

It's a bitch though... on the course I was on before getting this job, I was by far the best C++ programmer in a class where one guy had a BSC in computer programming and another guy had rewritten the wee assembler programs that run in the bus ticket machines. But tell that to potential employers.

The bit of paper counts or if (like me) you can demonstrate a talent for Unix you can move into the whole perl/shell scripting/c programming end of things (maybe).

If you do become a programmer, be prepaired to perform pretty mundane tasks for your company and do the programming that 'really' interests you 'on your own'.

If you don't have the interest to program 'anyway', then I don't think you have much business as a programmer, simply because the best programmers I know... enjoy the act of programming.... the worst ones... do it as a chore.

Still in many ways... what I do is a dream come true.... but, if I didn't enjoy it (the making of code work) ... the job would suck.

So, if you like programming... then with enough patience, drive and determination in the Irish economy 'somebody' 'somewhere' will take you on..... if you don't love the act of making code, like it was sex or caffeine, then don't bother your arse to be honest.

Bluntness (tm).

Typedef

Oh I forgot.... commerical programming is a whole different kettle of fish to training programming.

The answers to problems have to come with the snap of the fingers and work right... you don't have the same kind of academic luxuries vis-a-vis working or almost working code.

Your code has to work, it has to preform and you have to be the one to make it happen or it's your ass.

And on that bright note... I'd just like to remind everybody to vote.
people died for that right you know.

JohnK

Originally posted by The Corinthian
...You’ll often get more practical experience from a Fás graduate than a CS one...

WooHoo! I'm doing softdev in FÁS right now

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Finally, there are too many who went into IT simply for the money, and have no vocation for it. Such people will earn a living in the long term, but rarely make the big bucks, as they’re uninterested in keeping their skills up as much as those with a genuine vocation for programming. Thankfully, the inflow of these has decreased since the dotcom collapse.

Our instructor was telling us at the start of the year that only about half of the people who had expressed interest in the course bothered to do the assesment. They were no longer interested in a job in computers.



btw: Typedef, your PM inbox is full. I'm doing it in Cork

leeroybrown

I'm looking at the same problem from the viewpoint of the unemployed college grad who wants to get some good work experience.

The main advantage I see in taking on grads is the fact you can get a extremely talented programmer at a lower cost than a ok programmer with exp (sounds horrible I know, but its true).

True, but picking out a talented programmer out of a bunch of disinterested poor substitutes takes effort. Considering that most lesser skilled people lie on their CV's to an extent where experienced individuals skill-set is highly devalued.

Someone who wrote a little bit of poor C code in college will claim to know C, and on paper one claim is the same as another. I know of people who claim knowledge of Linux administration based on the fact that they've recently installed RedHat or Mandrake

The disadvantage I see (as an unemployed college graduate and programmer) is that it isn't very clear cut that I'm better than my peers from the colleges. On the other hand someone with 2 years experience with company X at least has the competence to avoid being sacked for 24 months.

(That said, my industry experience to date suggests that perhaps surviving as an incompetent might not be all that impossible ... certainly it wasn't)

Hobbes

Originally posted by Typedef
That's why programming SQL databases and VB frontends makes me crazy... it's too bloody easy in the final analysis, no challenge.

I think your hatred for all things VB stems from your childhood. Maybe you were attacked by a rogue VB dialog.

UI design isn't easy. It's prehaps easy to do a VB frontend, but it doesn't make you a qualified UI designer. I don't think VB is bad per se, but allows bad programmers to write code easily.

Programming SQL is the same deal.Commercial level SQL development is not easy. Someone who knows how to query a database using SQL doesn't make them a developer and I have seen some of the stuff qualified professional SQL developers do and it's pretty amazing what they do and why.

Money is good depending on where and what you do. Money isn't good in Ireland compared to the US (People I know starting out of collage got around x2 what a person got here). But don't think the US is the land of honey, most places will employ you because you are cheaper and the dotcom bubble bursting has left a lot of out of work developers.

The money isn't as good as it used to be and this wave of people entering the business is typical. I remember when accountancy had the same issue and everyone and thier mother was trying to get into accountancy. Give it time and it will go back to builders or repo men.

Also saying "Programming" is very broad statement. It's like saying what's it like being a Musician.

The only thing I can say is don't assume you will be l33t forever if you just stick to one language, oh and like all jobs if your only doing it for the money then your in the wrong job.

Merrion

Other languages have their own strengths obviously

Except Oberon which only has weaknesses

I would have to agree with the general concensus that the pay for programmers in Ireland is pretty low compared to other countries. This may be related to the fact that so little programming work here is "green field code" as opposed to regionalisation of something developed in the US or UK.

Talliesin

I think it's more to do with the old-fashioned supply and demand.

Merrion

Possibly - though in my current contract demand seems to be exceeding supply...

l3rian

Thanks for all the info guys

I deleted my original post after I searched and found several similar threads, (yes I know now, search first then post )

I am really glad that there are actual programmers replying, as I have a few questions that would require first hand experience of a programming job

Firstly, I am doing this course in DIT: http://www.comp.dit.ie/ft225/ taking the cs and software eng. option
Would you consider it appropriate for a would-be programmer?

I do actually like programming, and have done some good c++ projects. Is c++ the most popular laungage in business, and would it be a good idea to specialise in it?

Whats the working environment like? teams, individual work? much presure? working hours? work from home, office only?

What was it like first year out from college? would a Banks IT dept be considered a good start? what is the usual job-path to becoming a programmer, if there is one? and would a masters help?

dazberry

Interesting topic. My 2 cents ...

Programming (i.e. software development) ~can be~ boring regardless of your interest. Some of it can be pretty mindless, some can be fascinating, and both can be in the same project. It all depends. Naturally if you’re only in development for the money (?) it’s going to be a chore regardless.

In respect of some of the other comments made:

money is decent but only for experienced people from what I gathered from people who did get a job avg starting was 23k .. two years ago avg was 23k irish!!

+

1. Programming pays well - Not true. Programming pays less than the bulk of post-graduate carrers. Compare it to law, dentistry, business management etc.

IMO it used to pay reasonably well, in that you could reach a reasonable salary very quickly in comparison to other careers. The issue is that you hit a ceiling very quickly here, and if you want to earn more you need to move out of development (primarily) and into areas such as project management or business analysis. Of course today the programming rates or terrible.

2. Computer science degree is not much use in the real world - Again, not true.

I take you point but I do think it does depend on the degree/institution. Some degrees are bloated with non-relevant content just to pad 4 years. Some other content is probably useful to at best 1% of graduates ever.
Specific to programming, the best grades were primarily the best students, not the best programmers.

The main advantage I see in taking on grads is the fact you can get a extremely talented programmer at a lower cost than a ok programmer with exp (sounds horrible I know, but its true).

In my experience that is very untrue. Firstly not all grads are talented programmers. Secondly because someone is talented doesn’t mean that they will function well in a real-world project (I’ve seen this too many times).

D.

Evil Phil

I can`t really say about college as I came off a a FAS Programming course, went into testing then tought myself VB etc. I have just quailified for membership with the British Computer Society but as I´m away from home I have yet to see the benefits of that qualification.

One good thing about that qual. is that I have loads of other modules to add for a full honours degree. I can do them in my own time too and only have to study things I´m interested in. Which is what I´m going to do. For me now the classroom time is more important than the peice of paper, of course I could always study them on my own by I need the discipline.

I have taken a year off to re-organise my life and have decided that programming is what I love and I´m going to stay in it. Programming, if you have the vocation, is going to be a good job for you.

Merrion

You'd be amazed at how many "experienced" programmers don't do even basic stuff like this.

Anyone who follows these guidelines should do alright - IT degree or not.

Talliesin

Originally posted by l3rian
Firstly, I am doing this course in DIT: http://www.comp.dit.ie/ft225/ taking the cs and software eng. option
Would you consider it appropriate for a would-be programmer?

Yes, up to a point. If you can balance that with some experience in the actual craft of programming then you will be a good programmer who is also a good computer scientist, and that's the best of the lot.

Maybe code a web page for a non-profit organisation for free. While it isn't programming per se (though it might involve some programming) it would be something you could point to to so hands-on experience.

I do actually like programming, and have done some good c++ projects. Is c++ the most popular laungage in business, and would it be a good idea to specialise in it?

It's almost certainly a good idea to learn a few different languages. I would recommend you learn at least some VB and/or Java as well.

Beware of assumptions across languages though. A lot of bad practices come from people taking baggage from one language into another (you've probably already seen "C++ dressed up as C" code, it's worse if the same thing happens with languages with greater differences).

However everyone should have one language that they know inside out and back to front. C++ could be yours.

Learn at least some HTML (accuracy to the standard would be more important than "fluency") and get a good understanding of XML if they aren't already on your course. While they are not programming languages managers will assume you know them (lumping them in a vague mental category of "nerd stuff" along with C++ ).

bonkey

Originally posted by Typedef
That's why programming SQL databases and VB frontends makes me crazy... it's too bloody easy in the final analysis, no challenge.

I would tend to disagree.

Designing simple front ends and doing simple database programming is too bloody easy, and would generally drive anyone crazy.

Conversely, UI design skills and DB design/coding/optimisation skills are two of the areas I would single out as being areas where there is a serious shortage of skills.

(and yes, I'm aware that "VB front end" is not just about UI, but UI is a major part of any front end).

I think the most enjoyable programming I've done in the past few years has all been SQL-based. Its also been some of the most challenging.

If you do become a programmer, be prepaired to perform pretty mundane tasks for your company and do the programming that 'really' interests you 'on your own'.

On the other hand, if you become something else, be prepared to perform pretty mundane tasks for your company, and you are less likely to be in a job where your career can also be your hobby/interests.

If you don't have the interest to program 'anyway', then I don't think you have much business as a programmer, simply because the best programmers I know... enjoy the act of programming.... the worst ones... do it as a chore.

I couldnt have said it better.

At times, I think the world could lose the bottom 50% of its programmers, and actually end up with a net gain in productivity.

Then I stop being so silly, and admit that the figure is probably closer to 75%.

jc

Cian

Originally posted by Typedef

I hope to get to do an evening thingy in Trinners in CS.
Ostensibly I'm interested in hardware programming, but, so long as the programming is difficult and the logic hard to understand I'm reasonably happy.

That's why programming SQL databases and VB frontends makes me crazy... it's too bloody easy in the final analysis, no challenge.

Warning: spoilers in this post

I'm in the final year of the evening Bsc in trinity. If you're interested in hardware, don't go near my course. You will not be touching it with a barge pole, the course is mainly programming, analysis skills, business management, and several bizarre modules like law and statistics.

The course is aimed at people who are interested in pursuing a management career, not engineering. It's a pity they didn't tell me that when I started it. Plus you will have to pay fees, about €3.5k a year (varies). I don't see why, I know ppl who have attended "full time" degreee courses that consist of less hours and less research/project work.

In short, you're better off saving cash for a year, taking the day course, and having a life. The evening course is pants.

Typedef

*shrug

Originally posted by Cian
In short, you're better off saving cash for a year, taking the day course, and having a life. The evening course is pants.

Hmm. I noticed that there were some 'non-programming modules'. Mostly what attracts me is http://www.cs.tcd.ie/courses/bsccs/ssbsc.html

http://www.cs.tcd.ie/courses/bsccs/jsbsc.html#CS3

http://www.cs.tcd.ie/courses/bsccs/jfbsc.html#ON1 ==> This one is acutally pertinent, Java is in demand right now... I already have SQL... even one year of this would make me very marketable * touch wood.

Even with just year 1, I would have 2 1/2 years development experience and mixed (Windows/Linux) sysadmin with another concurrent job as a Unix sysadmin (contract) , with a former job as a Gateway tech rep, at which stage I could reasonably demand copious amounts of cash for playing tetris and looking important behind a desk.

doubleplusgood.

Gavin

Originally posted by Typedef

Even with just year 1, I would have 2 1/2 years development experience and mixed (Windows/Linux) sysadmin with another concurrent job as a Unix sysadmin (contract) , with a former job as a Gateway tech rep, at which stage I could reasonably demand copious amounts of cash for playing tetris and looking important behind a desk.

doubleplusgood.

ya think ? Unlikely. I know several fairly relatively skilled people that spent a looong time looking for jobs. Competent programmsers with sys admin experience.

Gav

Typedef

will program for food.

Hobbes

Originally posted by Typedef
I could reasonably demand copious amounts of cash for playing tetris and looking important behind a desk.

doubleplusgood.

Welcome to the cult of Kibu. Those days are gone. *sniffle*

Cian

Originally posted by Typedef
*shrug


Hmm. I noticed that there were some 'non-programming modules'. Mostly what attracts me is http://www.cs.tcd.ie/courses/bsccs/ssbsc.html

Fair enough. This is the year I'm doing currently, and what I would consider the most interesting year.

http://www.cs.tcd.ie/courses/bsccs/jsbsc.html#CS3

http://www.cs.tcd.ie/courses/bsccs/jfbsc.html#ON1 ==> This one is acutally pertinent, Java is in demand right now... I already have SQL... even one year of this would make me very marketable * touch wood.

The programming you learn in 1st year will be of almost no use, unless you have difficulty saying "hello world" to your clients. Or constructing simple geometric shapes gives you the shivers.

Even with just year 1, I would have 2 1/2 years development experience and mixed (Windows/Linux) sysadmin with another concurrent job as a Unix sysadmin (contract) , with a former job as a Gateway tech rep, at which stage I could reasonably demand copious amounts of cash for playing tetris and looking important behind a desk.

doubleplusgood.

Keep dreaming. I have no doubt it will increase your marketability, but unfortunately no amount of degrees from trinners will bring the 1990's back.

I don't particularly want to dissuade you, just let you know what your in for. However you seem to be very goal oriented, so maybe it will suit you. However if you want lots of free beer and women, do the day course.

Typedef

The programming you learn in 1st year will be of almost no use, unless you have difficulty saying "hello world" to your clients. Or constructing simple geometric shapes gives you the shivers.

Unfortunately, one of the principal motivations is that having "Java" from Trinners would look good on ye olde cv document, the actual (content) is superflous.

For example, I have been know to write implementations of the DES encryption algorithm, but apply for a job doing C++ even the most simple C/C++ programming to 'recruitment agency (x)' and watch the droid say "Do you have a grad"?

So what do you do? Stay in db programming et-al?

The Corinthian

Write technical articles, for Web sites and even print publications. A few well-crafted and relevant articles are worth their weight in gold and are greater proof of your ability and knowledge than any degree. Write a book on a particular subject and it’s frankly worth more than a CS degree.

You even get paid for writing these articles once you’re known

quozl

a lot of potential employers wont even speak to you if you don't have a degree. However good you are, you won't get the chance to prove it to them. That's the thing I'm happiest I have a degree for, I wouldn't have my current job if I didnt have it.

And I know this is unfair, and there are lots of exceptions. But it's a pretty common fact of life,

Greg

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Cian
Keep dreaming. I have no doubt it will increase your marketability, but unfortunately no amount of degrees from trinners will bring the 1990's back.

I don't particularly want to dissuade you, just let you know what your in for. However you seem to be very goal oriented, so maybe it will suit you. However if you want lots of free beer and women, do the day course.

I'm doing that evening CS degree in TCD. I have a fair few years of programming experience too.

It will suit anyone who likes working with computers at whatever level but feels the need for a bit of 'theory'.

Main disadvatage, as pointed out, you don't get the 'college' experience. At some point you may feel you have missed out in some way. The general age of students seems to be mid 20's to mid 30's.

Other point is that you will need to set aside money for fees (3,000 euros+) if your employer does not pay. This can be quite a lot if you're in an entry level job. Even so, you will have a fair bit more money in your pocket than your average day student.

Main advantage, of course, is that you combine experience with the paper qualification. This may well give you the edge over other recent graduates.

Dr_Teeth

I think a very important part of college is the people you meet while you're there. I *may* not have gotten my first 2 jobs without a degree, but I sure as *hell* wouldn't have the clients I have now without the contacts I made whilst doing it.

As for programming.. bleh, it's just one of the skills you'll need along the way. If creating software interests you, a CS degree will teach you right from wrong in a fundemental way that you will be able to apply in any IT-related project you work on.

Teeth.