Eircom and splitting lines

Dempsey

If you have a suspiction that eircom have split your line, is there anyway to get them to 'unsplit' it and give you a proper line (for internet usage)?. What is the law on this?

yellum

/me awaits Muck

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by yellum
/me awaits Muck

Beat me to it

dempseyt, do a search here or on the IrelandOffline board, there's been loads of posts on it (search for DACs or carrier lines too).

spongebob

was when boards member kennett brought it up, search for his posts in the past 3 or 4 months

it comes up for animated discussion about once a month in here or in the irelandoffline forum

Dempsey

I didn't realise that people have 'discussed' this elsewhere. By the sounds of it you are sick of talking about it:D

spongebob

dacs pairgain splitter

carrier line

all the same.

what is your prob location exactly?

Dempsey

No my line but a friends. Its Tipperary.

eth0_

The fact is, splitting lines is ILLEGAL and has been since I think April 2002. I'd ring Eircom and let them know that you're well aware they've broken the law by splitting the line and that you'd have no qualms involving the press if they refuse to restore your line to its original state.

I would go freakin' MENTAL if they pulled that stunt on my line :0D

elexes

yep do the following
they dont like sending out the tecky but this works and has worked for 15 other ppl that have come into the shop asking me about this very same problom

1 ring eircom tec support/line fault ppl
2 once on hold walk away for about 45 mins have a bit of dinner n some other stuff
3 once you finaly get to talk to a person tell them your having probloms sending fax's from your home and you need it for your home business . you have had the guy who sold you the fax look at it and its working fine in your office ( engage waffl mode hear )

firstly they will try and get you to sign up to eircom " hi-speed"
id recomend it as isdn is mutch better then a 56k .but tell them no you just need to use the fax every once in a while

after a bit they will agree to send out a tecky to look at the line he will install a "filter" and that should fix your line . you dont need to be in the house at the time as he dosnt have to enter your house to do the work

all else fails tell etho

eth0_

Originally posted by elexes
all else fails tell etho

I'll sort em out with fisticuffs!

Kevok

I got mine unsplit 2 weeks ago. All it took was the entire road to lose telephone services. And when the engineer came to test the lines i said: "I have broadband now, take the box away and cancel the second line."

He did it. And i tested the line that was left. 52000kbs or there abouts. I wonder if they miss the 300 - 400 euro bi-monthly cheque they were getting.

Dempsey

Originally posted by Kevok


He did it. And i tested the line that was left. 52000kbs or there abouts.

Please say that connection speed is a typing mistake.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Kevok
I got mine unsplit 2 weeks ago. All it took was the entire road to lose telephone services.

I presume this was accidental.

spongebob

Originally posted by dempseyt
Please say that connection speed is a typing mistake.

52-54k is possible but ONLY if the analogue to digital conversion is carried out on your own premises and not down in the Eircom exchange.

It would be expected on the Analougue port on a Hi-Speed ISDN box for example because the conversion to digital is carried out by the box.

I saw 53.3k when plugged into an analogue port on a Nortel Meridian and 54.6k (ISTR) off a Nitsuko.

M

albertw

Originally posted by eth0_
The fact is, splitting lines is ILLEGAL and has been since I think April 2002.

My connection speeds have dropped from 47000 to about 32000 since Decmber 20th last. Heres the response I got from the ODTR/CCR about splitting:

Contrary to the statement in your mail, this practice [line splitting] is not illegal and eircom are not breaking any legislation by continuing to provide a telephone line to new customers by splitting existing customer telephone lines. As the Universal Service Provider, eircom have certain licence conditions they must fulfil. eircom must endeavour to provide a fixed telephone line, adequate for voice telephony, to all reasonable requests. There is no legislation preventing eircom from providing such access through splitting existing customer lines.

Interesting...

~Al

Mossy Monk

that is the exact same response i got from COMREG today. so what's going on

spongebob

There is no legislation. There is a binding agreement between
Eircom+Odtr+Other Operators on installed Copper Management known as the CLFMP which is Here in PDF.

The relevant section (section 7 page 16) states that LEGACY systems need not be removed. It also states that new ones my not be deployed as from April 2002 unless it is reasonable to do so. Eircom did not demonstrate why it was reasonable in this case so we must assume it was arbitrary and capricious (unreasonable in other words) to knowingly degrade you line and continue to charge you full rate for this inferior service.

Section 7 of the CLFMP states

"Systems in service...... will be tolerated as long as they do not cause interference with compliant systems"

That happened to you Albert, your compliant system was interfered with, so you should name and shame the Comreg muppet who stated otherwise. While the CLFMP is not legislation it has the same status in this case.

Eircom are not obliged to remove them from pre April 2002 installs.

Comreg spent a furtune on this OVUM consultants report in September (zipped pdf 500k), well worth a read as its not too technical (and its free). On page 44 of the expensive consultants report COMMISSIONED by the ODTR as it then was you will find the following statement on pairgains

"Eircom may not deploy these systems"

If this was wrong in September 2002, why did the ODTR/Comreg publish the report?

zynaps

How frustrating... imagine having one line, on which you got 52kbps connections, and decided to have a second line put in, wherupon you noticed you could suddenly only get 24k on each.

Knackers were charging people for two lines, when all they had was one, split into two little poxy ones...

*stab*

zynaps

cgarvey

Is it not reasonable to deplay DACS on a line when there are no other lines available? I.e. without it a customer would not be able to get a line?

I'm sure "reasonable" could be stretched further too. So that any remote location or urban location with a busy/full local exchange could continue to use DACS and "be reasonable".. i.e. little or no change?

.cg

spongebob

if the demand for that line could 'reasonably' have been been forecast in that area 2 years ago then there would have been enough time to run more copper in the interim.

therefore it would NOW be unreasonable to use a pairgain.

If the road along which the wires ran had fallen into the sea and the council still hadn't fixed it up during the past 2 years then it would be Reasonable to use a pairgain.

It depends on circumstances all right, but the excaptional is just that. I object to the use of technology , intended to deal with short term exceptional problems , as a long term 'solution' in Eircoms eyes. So do the other carriers in Ireland and so does Comreg at their behest.

M

stormkeeper

Originally posted by albertw
My connection speeds have dropped from 47000 to about 32000 since Decmber 20th last. Heres the response I got from the ODTR/CCR about splitting:

Contrary to the statement in your mail, this practice [line splitting] is not illegal and eircom are not breaking any legislation by continuing to provide a telephone line to new customers by splitting existing customer telephone lines. As the Universal Service Provider, eircom have certain licence conditions they must fulfil. eircom must endeavour to provide a fixed telephone line, adequate for voice telephony, to all reasonable requests. There is no legislation preventing eircom from providing such access through splitting existing customer lines.

Interesting...

Erm... Why do I suddenly feel faint? :eek:

I'm beginning to wonder if my letter will work now...

Edit: Then again, this splitter has caused massive interferance with the phone line, up to an almost useless state for internet services. If I get this letter, the ComReg can expect a reply... I'm not standing for having to pay for Mis-Dialled Internet numbers... It is a farce in this day and age to have to do so, in this supposed E-Hub of Europe. C'mon people... Get your act together!

zynaps

Originally posted by Muck
I object to the use of technology , intended to deal with short term exceptional problems , as a long term 'solution'

quick-and-dirty
<jargon, programming> Describes a crock put together under time or user pressure. Used especially when you want to convey that you think the fast way might lead to trouble further down the road. "I can have a quick-and-dirty fix in place tonight, but I'll have to rewrite the whole module to solve the underlying design problem."

See also kluge.

[Jargon File]

(eircom seem to have forgotten the last part of this - a temporary fix should be replaced with a robust, permanent solution soon, rather than merely left as the working answer)
zynaps

highlight

The only way you can expect this to change - respond to the USO consultation.

And I do know what I'm talking about, I know the author of the
Copper Loop Frequency Management Plan. There's nothing illegal about pair gains.

phaxx

Oh.

I suspect my line has been split in the past month, speeds used to be 5.0k-5.2k, very reliable, and for the last month it's been all over the place between 2.5k and 3.5k, tried a few different ISPs. (nolimits usually)

Can anyone spell out clearly what my options are? Other than Esat's DSL, which we just can't afford.

One interesting point is that I'm across the road from the exchange - lazy engineers unwilling to run a new 30m cable? :P

PiE

If they split it in the past month it'd be illegal.

Dunno how you could find out for sure if it's split tho, I doubt Eircom would come out and admit it.

Maybe email ComReg and ask them what you should do.

Lemming

Originally posted by phaxx
Oh.

I suspect my line has been split in the past month, speeds used to be 5.0k-5.2k, very reliable, and for the last month it's been all over the place between 2.5k and 3.5k, tried a few different ISPs. (nolimits usually)

I'm in a similar position it would seem. My line, since the start of Jan, has been up and down (more down) like a muppet on a pogo-stick and constantly dropping connections too.

Where I used to consistently connect at anywhere from 44 - 49.3 kbps, I'm now seeing sub 40kbps speeds. Although right now I seem to be connected at 45.3kbps. I'm sorely tempted to go with either irish-wisp or ibb and telling eircom to go f*ck.

However I might also mention that this seems to happen every 6/7/8 months or so for me usually lasting about 2 weeks. Me thinks its that smelly f*cking rat again :mad:

highlight

Absolutely true. If eircom cannot provide a line without a pairgain device they can use one. No problems.

The Copper Loop Frequency Management Plan relates to lines requested for Local Loop Unbundling.

spongebob

Originally posted by highlight
The only way you can expect this to change - respond to the USO consultation.

And I do know what I'm talking about, I know the author of the
Copper Loop Frequency Management Plan. There's nothing illegal about pair gains.

Point 1, absolutely correct.

Point 2, does yer man work for Eircom?

If he works for Eircom then I am sure he has HIS understanding of what it means. The Other carriers have theirs and Comreg has yet another viewpoint. The CLFMP is a synthesised (industry best practise) document and not a Directive from Comreg.

Note what Ovum said about pairgains in September, they simply said that they 'may not' be deployed anymore.

I agree that pairgains in exceptional circumstances are not illegal, say where a new house is built BEYOND the last house on a road.

If you can reasonably demonstrate that Eircom had adequate forewarning of the likely demand for Copper in a given area then the pairgain is illegal. You should also be entitled to information when a pairgain is deployed in the area as it is normally a precursor to further deterioration of the Copper plant in the neighbourhood.

M

tribble

Eircom Engineers tried to install a Pair Gain system in my house after I ordered a new analogue line.

They couldn't because they had no access to the original termination box. Or rather i told them them that I had buied it under concrete.

October : The engineer shook his head and went away to do some tests.

November : Sends out contracters who make lots of noise and burrow new cable under my garden with a 'GrundMaster'(spelling?). Only we tell the contractors to put the new line in over yonder (near the neighbours) so can remove their ugly phone cables from the front of our house. This would involve no extra work for eircom just a few extra minute down 'the hole'.

November2 : Eircom Engineer comes back. Sees our modifications to his plans, shakes his head and goes away again.

November3 : Different Engineer - Takes one look decides it's all too much and goes away.

November3 : Another Engineer. Sits in van for an hour and drives off.

December : Nothing

January : 2 teams of engineers decide to tackle the 'problem' - after much tea and ass scratching they do the work in just over an hour. Well nearly all the work. Seems that they're 'outdoors' engineers and won't do the 'inside work'.

January2 : Still waiting on engineer to connect copper pair to the pre-wired and beautifuly terminated box on the wall just inside the garage.


Anyway - Moral of the story is if you only give them one option they will have to follow it. DO NOT GIVE THEM ACCESS TO THE TERMINATION BOX IF YOU ORDER A NEW ANALOGUE LINE.
That's the first box inside your house that all the rest connect to.


tribble

STaN

Originally posted by tribble
Eircom Engineers tried to install a Pair Gain system in my house after I ordered a new analogue line.

Anyway - Moral of the story is if you only give them one option they will have to follow it. DO NOT GIVE THEM ACCESS TO THE TERMINATION BOX IF YOU ORDER A NEW ANALOGUE LINE.
That's the first box inside your house that all the rest connect to.

What is a Pair Gain? And how is it bad?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by STaN
What is a Pair Gain? And how is it bad?

It is a way of creating two 'virtual' phone lines out of one physical copper pair going into the exchange. Saves money for the telco and works for OK voice, but prevents data transfer at all but neanderthal rates.

STaN

I suppose it prevents DSL on either line?

Is pair gain illegal? And can you request another physical line if you want?

Vuk

Aye, STaN, I believe you will fail the line test on a split line and therefore no DSL


Also, I currently have DSL from EsatBT, are there any protections in place to ensure that Eircon doesn't ever split my line ?

phaxx

Just a thought - since I'm right opposite the exchange, and there are errorcom engineers and their vans outside the and around the street all the time, should I just ask one of them what can be done? Should I offer to give yer man 20 quid if he'll put me back to a normal line?

Dempsey

Speaking off the devil, today I was connecting at 48.0kbps, at around 12:30, grand. Around 14:00 I tried to connect again and I connect at 19.2kbps, after disconnecting and connecting a dozen time the max I can get is 24kbps.

During dial up the noises are slightly different to the normal. It almost sounds like its dialling again or something. This has happened before but goes away when I disconnect and reconnect. Is it a sign that eircom have split my line?

Mossy Monk

if i was to change from Eircom to Esat would Eircom have to unsplit my line

SkepticOne

Originally posted by STaN
I suppose it prevents DSL on either line?

Yes. In addition to slowing down your dial up speed to 1980s levels, pair gain systems make DSL and indeed ISDN impossible. Only thing is, if you want you can order ISDN and if Eircom decide to fulfill your order, they will remove the pair gain. Same is not true for ADSL. You have no way of upgrading to a non-pair gained line if you want ADSL. Some people have suggested that one way might be to upgrade to ISDN and then downgrade back to PSTN in the hope that you will be left with a non pair gained line. You have no guarantees, however, that either a) you won't be put back on the pair gain or b) that the non-pair gained line will be suitable for ADSL. This is a very risky and expensive approach.

Is pair gain illegal? And can you request another physical line if you want?

At present, no. As highlight said, if you are concerned, then you need to respond to the USO consultation document: http://www.odtr.ie/docs/ComReg02116.doc. Closing date is 11th February 2003.

zynaps

What if you already had DSL?
If it was no longer functional due to eircom installing a pairgain, what could you do? (except go after them with a pipe?)

zynaps

Dempsey

Look for compensation for loss of service, say that u needed it for work and important files couldnt be sent and you lost out on 1 million euros?

Lemming

Originally posted by zynaps
What if you already had DSL?
If it was no longer functional due to eircom installing a pairgain, what could you do? (except go after them with a pipe?)

zynaps

They'll also have broken the 12 month contract which they make YOU sign.

So by all means, beat them to death with their own material.

Kevok

I'd check the T&C's first. I'd bet they've already covered there asses on that possibility.

Dempsey

My connection was back to "normal" Sunday, 48Kbps. Still gave €ircon a earful:D . But I use to be at 52Kbps and then I messed with the Qos thingy and my speed went down to the present. Can anyone explain this one?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dempseyt
My connection was back to "normal" Sunday, 48Kbps. Still gave €ircon a earful:D . But I use to be at 52Kbps and then I messed with the Qos thingy and my speed went down to the present. Can anyone explain this one?

Imagine if you still had to pay them the remainder of the 12 month contract even though the line was not up to carrying it.

That would blow.

Lemming

Well, I just rang eircon over my line.

I had 3 issues to deal with (two of them related to the first)

1. Has a Pair Gain been installed somewhere on my line since Dec 2002.

"No". And they confirmed this. I'd like to get my local engineers number and see what he says.....

2. Connection speeds are now brutally inconsistent.

3. My connection has become DIRELY unstable, even when returning to prior connection speeds of 44 - 49.3 kbps, eg. I dial in, connect, am still getting a carrier signal yet get 100% packet loss incoming after , say 5 seconds - although this number is arbitrary and completely random.

Having checked the latest bill, there are a score of dial-up's lasting approx. 5 seconds in January.

Now, after the conversation with, what sounded like the male equivalent of the old TE biddy (scary though, eh?), he turned around and said that eircon was only obliged to provide voice telephony. When I informed him that they were obliged under regulation from the former ODTR to provide data telephony upto a certain level he didn't want to know and insisted that he was right. It's a pity I couldn't find the relevant document to quote "ad verbatim" to him.


GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :mad:

Dempsey

After giving €ircon last saturday (via email), A techinan or engineer arrived at my house but I was at College. The mother sent him away not knowing that I had complained, "There is nothing wrong with our phone line". I wonder how confusing this was for him and Eircom!!

STaN

Originally posted by dempseyt
After giving €ircon last saturday (via email), A techinan or engineer arrived at my house but I was at College. The mother sent him away not knowing that I had complained, "There is nothing wrong with our phone line". I wonder how confusing this was for him and Eircom!!

tell the folks if u have anything like that going on,.,,, i missed my ISDN installation 3 times cause the folks thought he was installing it and charging them for something they didnt need

eth0_

Originally posted by Lemming
When I informed him that they were obliged under regulation from the former ODTR to provide data telephony upto a certain level he didn't want to know and insisted that he was right.

Yeah, obliged to provide 9,600 kbps. Never EVER mention the word 'internet' to Eircom in situations like these!

spongebob

2400 , not 9600

sceptre

Originally posted by Kevok
I'd check the T&C's first. I'd bet they've already covered there asses on that possibility.

I suspect that they might be guilty of frustrating the contract (I think that's the legal term - it's ten years since I did any contract law) and you would probably be entitled to something back, regardless of the T&C. Dave Staunton as our local legal expert would probably be the person who would know.

Like the lads say, never ever mention the internet to Eircom when complaining. Tell them the line is crackly, you can't send faxes, there might be water on the line - anything but the Internet. They don't want to know and unfortunately the terms of their Universal Service Obligation put them in the right.

spongebob

Originally posted by sceptre
Like the lads say, never ever mention the internet to Eircom when complaining. Tell them the line is crackly, you can't send faxes, there might be water on the line - anything but the Internet.

When you dial 1901 and press 2 for repairs that above is the golden rule. The funny thing is that Biddy in repairs has been using the exact same excuse since at least 1994 ...probably earlier but I distinctly remember this crap in 1994.

The USO came out in 1999 and really only meant that you could complain about persistent disconnects.......once you swore blind to Biddy you had your modem throttled back to 2400.....

M

Lemming

Originally posted by Muck
When you dial 1901 and press 2 for repairs that above is the golden rule. The funny thing is that Biddy in repairs has been using the exact same excuse since at least 1994 ...probably earlier but I distinctly remember this crap in 1994.

The USO came out in 1999 and really only meant that you could complain about persistent disconnects.......once you swore blind to Biddy you had your modem throttled back to 2400.....

M

The point I tried to make with the middy (male-biddy equivalent) was that eircom is obliged to provide "data transmission", not intermittent data transmission (speed aside on this point. I'm dealing with the stability of the connection).

Anyway the entire episode has made me resolved to move 1800+ euro's a year worth of revenue off them and go w/ ibb or the like. I'd dearly love to stay with utv/dna since they've been good to me over the years, but enough is enough with that f*cking rodent.