Stephen's Day Anti-Fox Hunting Protests

Typedef

http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/1226/hunting.html

I must say that I admire the people who have gone out of their way to protest the practice of foxhunting in Ireland today.

To my mind a group of people riding around the country on horses with a pack of dogs to hunt a fox and tear that fox limb from limb is in my view one of the most barbaric things Irish society tolerates, after homosexual rape in prisons.

The notion that the fox has a "sporting chance" is simply a rationalisation and a platitude for the practice of fox hunting and to say that hunting foxes in this manner 'controls' the fox population is an absurdity, since there are far more foxes then there are hunts to kill them.

Whats more, if the fox has a genuine "sporting chance" the notion that hunting is 'controling' the population of foxes is in fact a misnomer of logic, as the fox may escape.

For me, foxhunting is one of those bloodsports that should be consigned to the pages of history, along with hare coursing.

Humbug.

DapperGent

You're probably right - it should go.

But have you ever been to a foxhunt? In a lot of ways it's a lovely St. Stephens day tradition. Colourful and fun to watch (them setting out not the actual hunt bit). There's a hunt beside me in Kells and it means a awful lot to an lot of people (I just think the horsies and doggie-woggies look nice). The fox population does need to be kept in check in certain areas but having said that proper hunters with rifles are better at it and far more humane.

I know this is all well and good until you get to the bit about the fox being ripped apart by a pack of dogs - I realise no amount of amusing pageantry is worth this. But I dunno I'll feel sorry for an awful lot of people when it does eventually get banned.

Also comparing foxhunting to male rape in prisons is more that a little sensationalist if not downright idiotic, don't you think?

I've never been a fan of fox hunts, most of them, nowadys use scented rags for the hunt as landowners, who give them permission to hunt are fewer, so they end up going around where theres very few foxes anyhow, at least where I live.

The get up of them is very colonial also, I mean the sight of Red coats and horns tooting, for gawds sake:o

On an aside note, my mum when we were young used keep hens and *cough* one night, I had the responsibilty of closing them into their pen for the night, they roamed free range by day...
Guess what,I forgot and at about midnight , we could hear a Ruckuss outside...
I knew full well what was going on, so my brother was sent out to have a look..., he came in and said it was
carnage
About 30 or so hens and ducks were killed by two or three foxes that night,they killed them all without mercy, and left the scattered bodies around the pen....
I was roasted for that mistake, and have had a little less sympathy for the foxes ever since.
mm

Riamfada

Originally posted by Typedef
http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/1226/hunting.html

To my mind a group of people riding around the country on horses with a pack of dogs to hunt a fox and tear that fox limb from limb is in my view one of the most barbaric things Irish society tolerates, after homosexual rape in prisons.

Im sorry but you are horrifieng an event you probably have never witnessed or experienced. Fox hunting is an age old tradition in Ireland and is part of my herritage and there is no way it will stop. Would we ban boxing because it is often horrific, no it is a popular sport. Hippies who are out there today should spend more time cleaning themselves and acting like respecatable human beings. I dont agree with many lifestyles people live but i never tell them to stop.


And Im sorry Typedef but how was your xmas turkey, did youslaughter it yourself or just ram stuffing up its arse to make it taste better? How much did you pay that contract killer of a butcher to pin it against a wall, catch it and pop its noggin off so YOU could PRACTISE YOUR XMAS TRADITION

Riamfada

Originally posted by Man

The get up of them is very colonial also, I mean the sight of Red coats and horns tooting, for gawds sake:o

Its a tradition for fs. THATS WHAT YOU DO .

hunkypex

I would not a want to be a fox in a hunt, its not a plesant way to go out. They don't eat the fox so its just for the thrill of the kill.
As for it being an age old tradition, it was practiced by the wealthy in the past. go back a bit and the penalty was death for hunting unless your upper lip was stiff enough.
The modern shower like to think that they are the landed gentry, sipping champagne in candle light dinners.
Some of my cousins are avid fox hunters and a bigger shower of sad, desperate losers could not be found.
Sod tradition it used to be a tradition to deport thieves to Australia but it was dropped, get over it.

Riamfada

Originally posted by hunkypex
I wouldn't mind it if it was mandatory for all hunters to spent a day being hunted.

Who would do the hunting you?

hunkypex

A large pack of Ravenous wolves would do the job.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Fox hunting is an age old tradition in Ireland and is part of my herritage and there is no way it will stop.

as were arranged marriages.. now we laugh at the idea times change, fox hunting serves no purpose other than so a few lads can get their kicks watching a fox being torn apart.

in the age we live in there could be alteratives to using live foxes, having people lay out a trail with a certain scent, so the dogs would have to track this instead ? *shrug* it wouldn't be the same, but at least it would be a tad more "humane"

stackboundary

Would we ban boxing because it is often horrific, no it is a popular sport

Actually, that's where we have a significant divergance of opinion, I would think.

Boxing (not that Boxing is the topic) is horiffic and stupid and quite frequently, men end up being 'punch drunk' aka brain damaged from Boxing, some even die for this 'popular sport'.

At least boxing is 'consentual', that is both parties (and the undulating industry that exploits human adversity) are sentient beings who choose (nominally) to Box as opposed to setting a pack of dogs on a fox and calling that act of brutality (population control).

Under that kind of 'remit' one might condone a miasma of draconian measures aimed at 'controlling' human's own rapidly expanding populos.

"without shedding a drop of Christian blood"

Riamfada

I have been on hunts and never seen a fox " been ripped appart" actually i have been on hunts and have never even caught a fox. Im a rider, I ride horse its what I do.

Farmers shoot animals and hunters with guns shoot game.

Fox Hunters chase an animal as inteeligent as themselves.


Sorry, whats the problem?

DapperGent

I think the problem is the bit where the animal dies horribly.

I'm with you on the tradition thing (where are you from btw Kells?) and as I said before in some ways I'll miss the hunt if it goes. But it kinda is unjustifiable in a lot of ways if you're killing an animal you should have a reason (vermin, food, cloths, disease control, livestock protection etc.) and then you should do it in the most humane way possible.

The fact that it's fun to chase away on the horse isn't really excuse enough (in my book) for the manner in which the animal dies (runs til it collapses and then savaged).

But in all fairness the life and death of the animals we eat and wear in daily life are none too pleasant either. I dunno it seems to me that there are better animal rights issues to campaign about in Ireland than the hunt. Maybe a score of foxes killed a year, while we have millions of livestock living in gluttonous misery?

I think the protesters just kinda want to piss the hunters off or make them feel like crap, or make themselves feel worthwhile. There are better things to do and worse people to annoy than them.

seamus

Originally posted by Grimes
Fox hunting is an age old tradition in Ireland and is part of my herritage and there is no way it will stop.

The point 'it's tradition' is moot. Traditions change, and go away. Other people have already pointed out traditions that we now laugh at, that were once commonplace. This one no different.

Hippies who are out there today should spend more time cleaning themselves and acting like respecatable human beings.

Well, you've just ruined any chance you might have had at having your points considered. Grow up. Get your head out of your arse and lose the righteous "I like to dress up like 19th century gentry and chase small animals around on horseback" attitude. Anyone who gets a kick out of chasing and killing another living being is sick. Period.

Who would do the hunting you?

Just give me a gun. I have no respect for foxhunters. That said, I probably wouldn't kill anyone, opting instead to string them naked to a pole, and draw funny faces on their bodies for all to see. Humiliation is far more effective than intimidation when you're dealing with ponces.

Farmers shoot animals and hunters with guns shoot game.
Fox Hunters chase an animal as intelligent as themselves.
Sorry, whats the problem?

We don't need to eat animals anymore. Farmers/hunters shooting them is bad enough. The fact that people would kill another animal for sport is just sick. Foxhunters are no better than peadophiles.

And I think typies comment comparing foxhunting to prison rape is perfectly valid, if not harsh enough.

seamus

Originally posted by DapperGent
Don't troll DG

Maybe if you made some points or pointed out the flaws in my opinions, as opposed to attacking me personally, people would take you seriously. Oh, no wait, but there's no good arguments for foxhunting is there? Oh well, you'll just have to revert to the lowest common denominator again so.......

DapperGent

My opinions are already posted above which if you cared to read them are anit-fox hunting though confused at the big deal being made about it.

Comparing fox-hunting to rape or paedophila is moronic.

<No calling people moron DapperGent. Bad. Cease and desist.>

seamus

Originally posted by DapperGent
Comparing fox-hunting to rape or paedophila is moronic.

Yeah, cos that's constructive. I, personally, draw no distinction between raping a child for pleasure and chasing and tearing apart a small animal for pleasure. If you have a problem with that, take it to another thread or PM me.

Getting back OT.....

But in all fairness the life and death of the animals we eat and wear in daily life are none too pleasant either. I dunno it seems to me that there are better animal rights issues to campaign about in Ireland than the hunt. Maybe a score of foxes killed a year, while we have millions of livestock living in gluttonous misery?

While that's fine in theory, we all know in reality that money makes the world go around. What's decreed as humane by the Government, the farmers will do to the letter. Allowing animals to go free range, especially for larger animals, is far more expensive for farmers than keeping them 'humanely' couped up. Besides this, vegetarians are still way outnumbered by non-vegetarians, so any calls for more humane treatment of animals will fall on deaf ears. There's hundreds more logistical problems with this, but put simply, it would be like trying to stop an army with a pellet gun. It's completely pointless (at least for the moment). The bigger issue needs to be chipped away at by tackling the smaller and less socially accepted issues.

Foxhunting, like the fur trade, is frowned upon by most, and so is easier to try and get banned. Once this is done, the next issue can be moved onto. Bloodsports and the killing of animals have been going on for thousands of years. The change will have to be long and slow.

No offence seamus, but I'm editing out DapperGent's troll from your quotes

Gordon

For me the death of the fox is not the main point to lead me to hate the act of fox hunting. I eat meat so I can't logicallly complain about "vermin" being killed. Vermin is how foxes are seen by "country folk" aren't they?

What I see is a living being frightened for its life, frightened for the life of its family... and scared ****less for... well its life. No amount of pleasure gained is worth the enjoyment of watching the taking of a life.

I wonder how many fox hunters would watch the Spanish bullfights and say it was inhumane, I wonder how many foxhunters would watch a Roman Gladiator slay a slave and feel a little queazy at the injustice of it, I wonder how many foxhunters would feel sick at the thought of their daughters and sons eaten alive by sharks in the Meditteranean because - they were edible vermin.

Would foxhunters care?

I guess it's all relative isn't it :rolleyes:

DMC

Isn't this really down to a urban/rural opinion?

DapperGent

Originally posted by seamus
Foxhunting, like the fur trade, is frowned upon by most, and so is easier to try and get banned. Once this is done, the next issue can be moved onto.

Point taken. I just find three thousand pigs in a shed eating their own faeces far more offensive than the practice of fox hunting. It's horrible for the animal and terrible for us.

I just think some of the real motivation behind protests of this sort is to make the hunters feel bad about themselves and to make the protesters feel good about themselves, not the actual banning of the sport.

DapperGent

Originally posted by Gordon
Vermin is how foxes are seen by "country folk" aren't they?

Unless you own some free range fowl then no, not really. I love them, they're around my house a good bit. I think they like to tease the dog.

Typedef

Isn't this really down to a urban/rural opinion?


Hmm, the urban/rural 'strife' that is supposed to exist may have some valid points to contribute to the debate, in fact, if one grows up in an environment where foxhunting is the norm, then it might seem like 'outsiders' imposing their will when urbanites cry havok and let slip the dogs of war (no pun) on the issue of fox hunting.

For sure people's environments play an important role in how adults eventually come to view the world, so a difference of opinion between city and country is enivitable. However, just because I might get pleasure from, for example, strapping a banger to a cat and igniting that banger, doesn't mean that such a practice is validated.

In fact during Haloween for years and years now, it has been the case that blowing cats apart with bangers has been practiced by many people in cities, but I doubt one would find it easy to get that particular practice legalised on the grounds of 'tradition'.

Therefore it is unlikely that foxhunting would be legalised if it were illegal and for me, if society would not legalise foxhunting 'now', the practice should not be protected on the grounds of some etheral tradition, because as is evident throughout history that practices that are enshrined as tradition like arranged marriage or official State religons are too often simply abuses of the tenents that are supposed to make up a matured and enlightened society.

Bod.

Ps. Play nice.

Jak

The old reliable hunting thread.

Don't really have the time to post much, however I would like to second just about everything dapper gent posted.

Comparing fox hunting to either rape or child abuse is just ****ing stupid. If you need to ask why, then you have a very skewed morality.

On the topic of Fox hunting, I would hate to see this tradition go.

Reason 1: Do not underestimate the value to a local economy of such an event. Nor indeed the entire industry that goes with it, or even the value the horses and dogs take from the event.

Reason 2: I am game shooter - pheasant duck etc. I have what I believe is a valid fear of the domino effect - once the antis have dealt with fox hunting they will move down the line to me and eventually anglers. :rolleyes:

Reason 3: I find hunting to be perfectly acceptable, and immensely valuable for maintaining a link between people, the land and the animals. I fear the "Why hunt, when you can get everything you need in a supermarket?" mentality (to roughly quote what Typedef posted in a former thread ) It is dangerous for the world to become so distanced as to forget the origins of their food.

Reason 4: Many hunts muzzle the dogs - so all that is at stake is the fear of the fox - which to be frank I can live with.

Reason 5: There are causes far more valuable but perhaps less enjoyable than being out than trying to ban fox hunting.

Gotta run - will come back to this.

JAK

azezil

In one word (expression ?) 'pffffffffft'

some fun facts (from my experience):
1. they rarely catch the fox
2. fox's butcher lambs/ hens etc. (do onto others as they've done onto u?)
3. ppl who complain about it are usually opinionated city folk who have no idea how much the loss of livestock really effects the farmer
4. protesting never solves anything, if anything it only makes the participants more steadfast in their ways.

Riamfada

Originally posted by seamus
Foxhunters are no better than peadophiles.

Im sorry but you disgust me

Riamfada

Originally posted by seamus
I, personally, draw no distinction between raping a child for pleasure and chasing and tearing apart a small animal for pleasure.

Would you draw a distinction bewtween raping a child for pleasure and slaughtering a cow in a meat grinder to feed somone ( i take it your a vegitarian)

Keeks

I'm very tempted to closed this thread for several reasons:

1) We've tried to have a discussion on this topic b4 but it just turned into an argument instead of a rational discussion. THis time it seems to be no different.
2) The focus of the discussion seems to have switch to the paediophile comment make 12/13 posts ago.

If you can't have a civil discussion and at least keep it on topic then I will close. If anyone has any problems with this the PM me. DON'T POST ANY COMMENTS ABOUT IT HERE!

Typedef

I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with discussing a topic more then once, in honesty, that's why I started the thread on Stephen's day, because it was 'topical' due to protests being held against hunting on the 26th.

In any case I don't particularly think that paedophilia is the same as hunting a fox, I do think that foxhunting is one of those practices that Irish society tolerates like rape of prisoners, which when examined is in fact a barbarous and repugnant act, an act that is in fact on intellectual examination, dehumanising of the participants and the people who perpitrate it, but moreover of the society that allows such acts of cruelty to take place.

For me there is no merit in hunting a fox with a pack of dogs, nor is there merit in letting dogs chase down a hare and rip that animal to pieces.

I'm still wholely unconvinced as to the 'merits' of allowing a pack of dogs to tear a fox to shreds and why such a means of propoted 'population control' is in fact a desirable, efficient and effective means of dealing with the fox population. I wonder (assuming anyone is still reading the thread) if some of the exponents of foxhunting as a means of population control, can explain why hunting the fox is the appropiate method of 'control'?

Moreover, I really need to know why it is people feel no compassion for the fox and why there is actually a 'need' (as in food) to inflict such a violent death on a comparitively intellegent organism? What is the logic, aside from the tradition?

Jak has mentioned that 'sometimes' the dogs used in the hunt are muzzled, which on the surface of it, seems to be a great compromise, you still get the hunt, but the animal in question (fox) does not get killed. The obvious question arises though. Is it really 'moral' to inflict such terror onto a fox and really isn't such a hunt, cruelty? There is no question that fido your family dog would ever have to suffer such a wretched and potracted period of persecution, because human society 'frowns' on such practices vis-a-vis the domesticated dog. So is this some sort of species cast system then?
I wonder if anyone can offer tempered and rational qualification of specifically the fox hunting position on this issue?

Cuidado con el Gato!

DMC

Originally posted by Typedef
Isn't this really down to a urban/rural opinion?

Hmm, the urban/rural 'strife' that is supposed to exist may have some valid points to contribute to the debate, in fact, if one grows up in an environment where foxhunting is the norm, then it might seem like 'outsiders' imposing their will when urbanites cry havok and let slip the dogs of war (no pun) on the issue of fox hunting.

For sure people's environments play an important role in how adults eventually come to view the world, so a difference of opinion between city and country is enivitable. However, just because I might get pleasure from, for example, strapping a banger to a cat and igniting that banger, doesn't mean that such a practice is validated.

That doesn't happen here that much here as our population is still rural in outlook but look at the fox-hunting argument in Britain. Now there is a case where vast tracts of rural England voted in Conservatives MP's, yet the urbanite Labour government call the shots. Of course the majority rules, that's accepted, but there are real concerns of the farming/rural communities in Britain that do not take their interests with full effect in central government. One only has to look at how the marked difference in how the British and Irish governments dealt with the outbreak of Foot-and-Mouth.

Fox-hunting is the flashpoint. People see Rolf Harris cooing over an injured fox in Animal Hospital, and its all cutesy and stuff. Then they see the red-jacketed brigade and their horsies and beagles and the way they slaughter the foxes. They don't make the connection.

My father told me when I was younger that I shouldn't believe anything in those Tom McCaughren novels on foxes and cubs, because they make foxes out to be cute and cuddly, when they can be the worst menace a farmer has to face.

In fact during Haloween for years and years now, it has been the case that blowing cats apart with bangers has been practiced by many people in cities, but I doubt one would find it easy to get that particular practice legalised on the grounds of 'tradition'.

Therefore it is unlikely that foxhunting would be legalised if it were illegal and for me, if society would not legalise foxhunting 'now', the practice should not be protected on the grounds of some etheral tradition, because as is evident throughout history that practices that are enshrined as tradition like arranged marriage or official State religons are too often simply abuses of the tenents that are supposed to make up a matured and enlightened society.

One other thing to put up the tradition arguement is that fox-hunting has been around longer than the gun. The laws for foxhunting were made at a time when this is the norm for killing foxes, and something that has become so established does become tradition.

xern

I think to hunting of foxes with a pack of dogs is barbaric and unnecessary!
Well aren't foxes at the top of the food chain? Their numbers have to controlled, i like going out at the weekend and hunting foxes! since baers and wolves left these shores the fox has no one but humans to hunt it!!

Riamfada

Morals souldnt come into play here, has anyone read the newspapers lately, we be lucky if we can keep oursleves alive let alone a few foxes

Typedef

Yes but, where do you draw the line as to what is 'unimportant'?

Honestly, even though people harp on about how important hospitals are, very few people actually 'do' anything about hospitals.

Ergo, if foxhunting is disgusting to you, do something about it, because for every person ready to do 'something' about an issue, there are literally thousands who think that issue is just too unimportant in the great scheme of things to matter.

Everybody has a niche in the great wheel.
Don't forget, "the machine of capitalism is oiled with the blood of workers".