Post-Budget Hikes - Car Tax [Merged]

Mr E

Car Tax.... If you want a 2lt Diesel car, expect to be quite a few hundred euro worse off (petrol rise, VRT rise and now car tax rise).

Why wasn't this stuff included in Wednesdays budget? What other little extras can we expect in the weeks to come?

- Dave.

The Government is reportedly about to increase the cost of car tax by between 10 and 12%.

Speculation in today’s Irish Times has said that if implemented, it would be the biggest once off road tax increase in ten years.

On Wednesday a 7% hike in vehicle registration tax for vehicles over 1900 CC, was announced by the Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy. (Source: Irish Examiner)

hallelujajordan

http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/1206/motortax.html

10-12% increase in car tax, effective from January . . . Why was this not announced on Budget Day???

MrPudding

Canada is looking better and better.

Cork

Originally posted by MrPudding
Canada is looking better and better.

I think that more prices will be hiked up in the coming weeks.

Watch out for refuse charges - they will sky rocket.

Is it hard to get visas for Canada?

MrPudding

They work on a points system. If you get the points you have a good chance of getting in. You will need a few grand up front but the figures look good. Example; An average IT job pays arround €35000. An average 5 bedroom house, some come with a pool, cost about €80000. Nice

Grumble,Grumble, moan, moan,thats all I hear....:rolleyes:
Fact: It costs a lot of money to run this country.
Fact: wages and other costs in the road building sector are rising.
Fact: The money has to come from somewhere.

Even poor people are better off now than five years ago, maybe a different government would get a better deal for them who knows?

All this moaning comes from greed, everybody wants more for themselves, without a hint or consideration as to where it's coming from:rolleyes:

Take it off the rich, the business people, the entrepreneurs,the industrialists, I hear said...
And then a proportion of them move elsewhere with their jobs, resulting in higher unemployment, bigger government defecits etc, etc.
It's a fact that the more money you earn , usually you pay more lolly in taxes....hard earned lolly, which is earned in most cases by people who have the skills to deserve that income.

If the Motor tax rise is being ring fenced for road improvements, then I think it's a fair contribution from the road users, assuming better roads mean less damage to our cars.
Short term pain=long term gain, in this case.
mm

DiscoStu

Originally posted by Man
Grumble,Grumble, moan, moan,thats all I hear....:rolleyes:

Even poor people are better off now than five years ago, maybe a different government would get a better deal for them who knows?

All this moaning comes from greed, everybody wants more for themselves, without a hint or consideration as to where it's coming from:rolleyes:

i would say that this moaning come from the fact that the previous/current government right royally ****ed up the public finances. This situation should not have ever have come about but due to their complete disregard for any kind of long term scenario that went beyond their own term in government they spent and spent and spent until the country was almost bled dry.

Why did this 10% increase not happen to be mentioned in the budget? And what little tidbits of extra budget planning are going to slip out next week?

Hang on, what could they have done seriously though, to save money??
McCreevy put millions into a pension fund, which went badly wrong. He kind of had the right idea but was defeated by circumstances.
He's no eejit, indeed pragmatic to an extent.
He knew the story, regarding how impossible it would have been to address the wastage and patronage scattered across various sectors of society, mainly embedded there by Fianna Fáil and to a lesser extent by FG...
But then we returned them and probably will do so again for want of an alternative:rolleyes:

Motor tax rises are actually for the Minister of the environment, probably decided by the cabinet, but not specefic to the budget.

Silly to announce it a day or two afterwards though, leaving it open to accusations of being a stealth rise.
mm

bonkey

Originally posted by DiscoStu
i would say that this moaning come from the fact that the previous/current government right royally ****ed up the public finances. This situation should not have ever have come about but due to their complete disregard for any kind of long term scenario that went beyond their own term in government they spent and spent and spent until the country was almost bled dry.

Sure, and while they were bleeding the country almost dry, almost the entire populace was complaining that the government werent giving enough back to the people who had caused it to happen, and that "now that we had money", wasnt it time that more was spent on X, Y and Z, and so on and so forth.

Every time that someone brought up the "saving for a rainy day" question, there were half a dozen others waiting to step in and point out that Problem X was too urgent to be shelved just because someone wanted to "play safe" and so on.

Face it - people are never happy with what is done, and rarely unhappy enough to actually do anything about it other than grumble amongst themselves.

Celtic Tiger arrives, and people complain - our taxes should be lower, our roads should be better, our hospital service should be better, hell - if money could have done it, people would have asked for our weather to be better.

Now the Celtic Tiger has gone and all we hear is how the government screwed up...not by spending money in the wrong place (as was the previous complaint) but just by having spent it in the first place.

jc

DiscoStu

Originally posted by Man
Hang on, what could they have done seriously though, to save money??

im no economist but when you allow spending to increase by a rate that is faster than the growth of your income money will tend to dry up very very quickly.

He knew the story, regarding how impossible it would have been to address the wastage and patronage scattered across various sectors of society, mainly embedded there by Fianna Fáil and to a lesser extent by FG...

???
Does that kind thinking work for an ostritch(sp)?.

The wastage and inefficency in the public sector has to be addressed. it will not go away so forgetting about it will not make it better.

A prime example of this waste is the road builing projects. on wednesday night i belive it was stated by the rte business reporter that the average cost overrun of a raod building project in ireland was between 30% to 65%. that has to be stopped. another example(stated here in an earlier thread) was the luas bridge forced to be completed early just as an election stunt for FF. how much was wasted in extra man hours to get that monument to berties ego done?

However fixing would be a long term thing, much longer than the lifetime of this goernment and that is not what FF are in power for. they are in power to stay in power and do whatever it takes to keep it that way. all they care about is keeping people blissfully happy and ignorant of what its going on, and by christ didnt they do well.

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by Man
Grumble,Grumble, moan, moan,thats all I hear....:rolleyes:
Fact: It costs a lot of money to run this country.
Fact: wages and other costs in the road building sector are rising.
Fact: The money has to come from somewhere.

FACT : Every month, after I have paid my bills, I have less money left over for me . . . . . the rate at which this is happening is much greater than the rate my salary is increasing (or is ever likely to)

FACT : Every month, I add an extra couple of minutes to my journey time to work 'cos the traffic has gotten that little bit worse.

FACT : We have just had the most successful 5 year period of any European Nation over the last 50 years, yet our infrastructure remains the worst in Western Europe....

FACT : We have a right, nay, a duty to moan and a responsibility to take that moaning to the ballet box. Irish politicians have taken the p1ss for far too long and its time we moaned a little louder..

We suffer not because as you say, it takes a lot of money to run this country, but because our money is being p1ssed up against a wall by years of public sector inefficiency. If Eire Ltd, were a company the CEO would've been sacked ages ago . . .

im no economist but when you allow spending to increase by a rate that is faster than the growth of your income money will tend to dry up very very quickly.

True, but take a look at the underlying reasons for this and don't blame Charlie McCreevy.
The health Service for one thing,eating up huge amounts of money with litle if any return in terms of reduced waiting lists.
Ineed I read now that consultants are blocking the sending of patients overseas as they fear, it will reduce their budgets.
They are refusing to hand over patient files, ie more greed.
No party especially Fianna Fáil has the political backbone to attempt a reform of the health service.
Too many boards, jobs for the boys, patronage etc, etc,...
A practice handy to FG also.

The blame lies with the people that vote for them really, there are or should be alternatives if they got enough support.
and regarding Charlie McCreevy's thinking and:

??? Does that kind thinking work for an ostritch(sp)?.

Well with a hard core of roughly 40% of the voters supporting Fianna Fáil, come hell or high water, could you blame anyone with a liking for politics, even Charlie McCreevy, for joining Fianna Fáil??
Some may understandably believe it is rotten to the core, but as so many are blindly wishing to follow it, then really the only way to have much long term influence politically in this country is by being a member of that party, by virtue of it being in power most of the time.
Mr McCreevy was for a long time an outcast in FF during the Haughey years, but he didn't leave it as to do so would have diminished his influence.
mm

Originally posted by hallelujajordan
FACT : Every month, after I have paid my bills, I have less money left over for me . . . . . the rate at which this is happening is much greater than the rate my salary is increasing (or is ever likely to)

FACT : Every month, I add an extra couple of minutes to my journey time to work 'cos the traffic has gotten that little bit worse.

FACT : We have just had the most successful 5 year period of any European Nation over the last 50 years, yet our infrastructure remains the worst in Western Europe....

FACT : We have a right, nay, a duty to moan and a responsibility to take that moaning to the ballet box. Irish politicians have taken the p1ss for far too long and its time we moaned a little louder..

We suffer not because as you say, it takes a lot of money to run this country, but because our money is being p1ssed up against a wall by years of public sector inefficiency. If Eire Ltd, were a company the CEO would've been sacked ages ago . . .

Your points I agree with, but,People aren't taking these issues to the ballot box are they??
Unless , the 40% or so core FF voters express their dis satisfaction by voting elsewhere,they are the people you have to convince, not me.
and regarding:

FACT : We have just had the most successful 5 year period of any European Nation over the last 50 years, yet our infrastructure remains the worst in Western Europe....

That speaks volumes for , what it costs to run this country, little and all as it is, and it speaks volumes for, how little our two main parties want to reform this,...boils back down to the patronage issue, imho and to a lesser extent the fear that the very reforms that are needed to make things more effecient may be unpopular in the short term with the voters...how Ironic is that:rolleyes:
mm

bonkey

Originally posted by hallelujajordan
FACT : We have just had the most successful 5 year period of any European Nation over the last 50 years, yet our infrastructure remains the worst in Western Europe....

Maybe that because if you do the math, you will discover another couple of bits of information :

FACT : infrastructure is damned expensive to put in place, and maintain.

FACT : economies of scale make it more possible for a larger nation to build a solid infrastructure over time than a smaller one

FACT : Ireland needs to spend an absolutely huge amount of money to allow its infrastructure to stand still because it didnt have the money over the last 50 years to do more than slow the rot in many cases.

We suffer not because as you say, it takes a lot of money to run this country, but because our money is being p1ssed up against a wall by years of public sector inefficiency

You have the figures to show this, or is this just supposition? Have you any idea what percentage of our annual expenditure could actually be recouped through increases in efficiency, or is it just that you see that there is inefficiency and decide that this is the root of all evil?

Sweeping statements like this are misleading. Yes, it is true that there is inefficiency in most areas of our public sector. But how much? How much is this inefficiency costing us? How much would it cost to remove it (i.e. unemployment increases etc)?

And, more importantly....if the government is simply p1ssing our money up a wall, where are all the bright suggestions as to how to tackle the problem???

jc

shotamoose

Originally posted by hallelujajordan

FACT : Every month, I add an extra couple of minutes to my journey time to work 'cos the traffic has gotten that little bit worse.

FACT : We have just had the most successful 5 year period of any European Nation over the last 50 years, yet our infrastructure remains the worst in Western Europe....

If it's the worst it is that way because, as has been pointed out, it has been chronically underfunded for a very long time. Ireland's transport infrastructure requires sustained above-inflation investment if we're ever to really improve it and make everyone's journey easier, safer and faster. This is made all the more pressing by the continuing rise in the amount of cars on the roads. So raising motor tax is pretty sensible, or at least would be if at least some of it went towards improving public transport, thus taking more people out of their cars and improving the traffic flow.

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by shotamoose
if at least some of it went towards improving public transport, thus taking more people out of their cars and improving the traffic flow.

I agree . . . and hiking up the cost of public transport is going to achieve that, isn't it !

bonkey

Originally posted by hallelujajordan
I agree . . . and hiking up the cost of public transport is going to achieve that, isn't it !

Whereas, if they didnt hike up the price, we'd simply have more and more complaints about the vast quantities of money being lost.

AS I keep saying....its a no-win situation.

First its a case of "not enough public transport". Then when money is finally there to be spent its a case of "why wasnt this done 20 years ago, its too little too late".

When losses grow too high its a case of "why do they have to lose so much money", and when prices increase to offset this we get complaints like yours.

I mean - honestly - what would it realistically take to make you happy with the system, other than some miracle fix which you know as well as I is only gonna happen in some alternate reality where the laws of economics dont apply.

jc

Cork

I think that is is fair that the government are hiking up prices at above the rate of inflation when we still have exemptions for our artiests and horsey set?

DiscoStu

Every time that someone brought up the "saving for a rainy day" question, there were half a dozen others waiting to step in and point out that Problem X was too urgent to be shelved just because someone wanted to "play safe" and so on.

if McCreevy was a good finance minister he should be able to see through the "we need 50 million to build a roadway for hedgehogs stretching from cork to letterkenny" rubbish and plan ahead. instead he promised the sun, moon and stars for the election knowing full well that there simply wasnt the money to finance it.
the global downturn has not come about instantly. It was majorly apparent after the burst of the internet and tech bubbles that ireland was going to be hit and hit hard. yet did he do anything to plan ahead? no he still allowed public spending to spiral while Harney and co. were saying everything was fine and dandy. inflation rocketed and for months the government claiming it was simply a short term thing. we still have the highest inflation rate in europe and this budget will do nothing to help the situation.
yet through all this(someone more versed than me can surely point out more mistakes made by him than these few) his arrogance is unmatched. he is yet to admit that the public was mislead by the government during the election campaign despite the "leaked memo" proving so.
the only hope for this country is for the PDs(parasites in my opinion) to pull out of the coalition and force a general election. however the nice fat 12% pay raise awarded to Harney and co. today makes that as unlikely as jeremy beadle and noel edmonds returning to prime time tv.

Sand

Car Tax.... If you want a 2lt Diesel car, expect to be quite a few hundred euro worse off (petrol rise, VRT rise and now car tax rise).

Consider it the cost of polluting and contributing to congestion - or think of it that it will lead to those who are already at breaking point re:the car to finally give in and get the CIE cattle trains, reducing congestion for you.

Sure, and while they were bleeding the country almost dry, almost the entire populace was complaining that the government werent giving enough back to the people who had caused it to happen, and that "now that we had money", wasnt it time that more was spent on X, Y and Z, and so on and so forth.

Ya, I agree with this statement entirely. I reckon if you searched through topics on this very board about 2 years ago or so, maybe even sooner, youd see a whole line of people giving out the same line. The nature of democracy is that you have to keep the mob happy, and Sir Charles might have had the best economic and financial vision/plan in the whole world but he still had to satisfy cabinet colleagues who were screaming for cash so they could satisfy the mob baying for this and that and assorted trivia. FF are very proud of their record of increased spending on the old sweetspots of health, education and social welfare and use it as a pretty effective elction tool to remind the mob why they should vote for them.

Even if you hated FF who exactly would you vote for? Youve only got an option of a socialist dominated government who arent exactly renowned for not spending heavily on the old sweetspots.

Cork

Youve only got an option of a socialist dominated government who arent exactly renowned for not spending heavily on the old sweetspots.

I agree if Labor/Green/FG/Independents got in - we would be in a probably much worse.


At least tax did not go up. At least - If people choose to smoke - they'll pay 50c extra per pack of 20. If people choose to drive a car - they'll have to pay for the up-keep of the roads.

I think that this budget could be much worse. We live in a counttry where people do not object paying fortunes for houses - yet they object to pay an extra 10-12% for motor tax.

Does anybody know - how much will be spent on drink on the leadup to Christmas?

There are many moaners out there. The bleeding heart political partys were defeated in the election.

This budget could have been a little fairer. But really - It was not the hair shirt people were predicting.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
I think that is is fair that the government are hiking up prices at above the rate of inflation when we still have exemptions for our artiests and horsey set?

Cork....here's a formal warning about this one.

Either start up a dedicated thread about it, or shut up about it.
I'm fed up with this becoming yet another complaint "du jour" being used to throw blindly at any political discussion.

And the next time you bring it up, I expect you to supply figures as to how much cash such a change would give to the government and so on, because otherwise you're just whining about something you havent even bothered to research.

Gottit?

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
If people choose to drive a car - they'll have to pay for the up-keep of the roads.

Except that there is absolutely nothing requiring that VRT, road-tax, etc go to paying for the roads or even transport in general.

Its another source of income, thats all. You are being taxed for choosing to drive a car....not necessarily to pay for the roads that you are using...it could be paying for anything.

jc

Cork

Originally posted by bonkey
Except that there is absolutely nothing requiring that VRT, road-tax, etc go to paying for the roads or even transport in general.

Its another source of income, thats all. You are being taxed for choosing to drive a car....not necessarily to pay for the roads that you are using...it could be paying for anything.

jc

I mis- typed regarding my abone comment. There is NO excuse for a government to saction increases above the rate of inflation.

I think it is a fair question on whether people are getting good value for their tax money?

I think that the government will start charging for other services such as sewage and water. But VRT , Vat on Fuel etc should go to paying for roads.

It will be interesting, if the government will now rule out tolling such roads.

Sand

True, but car ownership leads to a lot of related costs, not just providing roads, but also gardai to police them and legal costs from related court cases, teaching kids the safe cross code, direct medical costs and cleanup costs from accidents and pollution costs which affect a broad spectrum of life, along with congestion.

You can pretty much invent any exscuse you need for spending car taxes elsewhere. Even if there was a requirement to use car taxes on roads etc, the government would simply reduce the amount of "non-car" taxes it spends on transport in general and nothing would change overall- the demands of other sectors certainly wouldnt.

I think that the Environment minister minister Martin cullen did suggest that the rise in road tax is to be ring fenced for the roads budget.

Defending the biggest one-off road motor tax rise in 10 years, Environment Minister Martin Cullen promised that the €70 million raised by the increase would be used solely for regional roads funding.

Thats taken from:
http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgVcncGZNNnjY.asp

I wonder though if thats just another promise to be broken?
Although, if the government have say committed another €200 million to the roads, clearly, we know now where they are getting €70 million of that.

Just to address the Horsey thing ( at the risk of a slap from Bonkey:D )

There was an interesting discussion on yesterdays news at one with Pat Rabbitte on the topic of withdrawing their tax exempt status.
He and Joan Burton actually discussed the issue with representatives from the horse breeding sector. Pat Rabbitte said that the people he met with, were so sure that they were going to be taxed after wenesdays budget, that they conceded that they would be willing to make contributions but did not say how much.
He also said it was very difficult to estimate what revenue could be gained there as , the commissioners have never received any returns from the sector, they obviously being exempt, do not have to file them.
When pressed on the sum of money involved,Pat Rabbitte said that when you have famous stallions being charged out at €250,000 per mare they serve, then, it could be up to €200 million.
That, if a correct estimate, alone would be enough to fund this years slender roads programme without any car tax rise.
mm

Cork

Good point. I think that many other sources of tax income need to be looked at. We also need an independent study to look at what roads we need.

I think that the government were pushing for new roads as they could not toll existing routes.

As the tax-payer is now making an increased contribution to the construction of roads - is the concept of tolling ruled out?

Or will we have tolling anyway?

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
I think that the government were pushing for new roads as they could not toll existing routes.

More like they couldnt realistically upgrade certain roads, or would need new sections anyway as bypasses.

Face it - if the government wanted to introduce tolling on roads they built themselves, they could just as easily do it on existing roads (unless those built with EU Funding had a clause attached to the funding preventing such) as new roads. The public uproar would be the same either way.

As the tax-payer is now making an increased contribution to the construction of roads - is the concept of tolling ruled out?

Or will we have tolling anyway?

If we have trolling...err tolling...its most likely to be because the government cannot spare the cash to pay for roads themselves, and instead "sell" the road to a private concern to build, and then toll.

This is a hard call. On one hand, if the govt. build the road, we will have people inevitably complaining that the road wasnt needed (mostly from those who never/rarely drive the particular route), and that the money could have gone elsewhere.

If the govt. do not build the road, we will hear increasing complaints about congestion, and that all road-building is only done in Dublin, which is obviously unfair despite it having (arguably) the most congested routes in the country.

If they take the third option and sell the rights to a private corp who then get to toll the road, we will hear complaints about how the public is getting screwed on paying massive profits to a company, when had it been kept private it would have been better for all of us.

If they build it and toll it themselves, we will have complaints that the tolling is unfair cause drivers already pay road-tax, VRT, and so on and so forth.

There is no good option - the Irish people will complain no matter what the decision. It just seems impossible for people in this country to grasp the concept that our government has a finite amount of resources, and if they want more than these resources can pay for, there is only one way to get it...charge the people more.

here is NO excuse for a government to saction increases above the rate of inflation.

Rubbish. Of course there is.

Tieing increases/decreases to the rate of inflation would only work if public expenditure (and thus governmental income) remained the same. As salaries and unemployment go up and down, so does the cash that the government receive. Same applies for sales, company profits, etc.

Unlike an empoyee, the government does not receive a fixed income on a monthly basis. It is dependant on a myriad of factors. You are asserting that only one of these factors is of any way important.

Alternately, will you accept the impact to already-underfunded areas (health, education, transport, etc.) in terms of them receiving less cash, because you dont want the government to raise taxes by more than the rate of inflation?

jc

Cork

Alternately, will you accept the impact to already-underfunded areas (health, education, transport, etc.) in terms of them receiving less cash, because you dont want the government to raise taxes by more than the rate of inflation?

There is a lot of wastage in our public services.

No attempt has been made to make them more efficent.

Are Irish taxpayers getting value for money.

I don't believe in having high taxation. But - I believe, we deserve good services for the tax we give to our government.

I think the Irish people deserve more accountability where money goes.

Look at all those health boards - There should be 2 or 3 health boards in the country. Look at all those small hospitals. Do they have knowledge in all medical conditions? These hospitals should be upgraded or shut down.

Before, I get abuse for going off the topic - I believe - tax money needs to be spent wisely. If it needs to be raised - it should be raised equitabally.

(Sorry about the spelling)

Originally posted by Cork
There is a lot of wastage in our public services.

No attempt has been made to make them more efficent.

Are Irish taxpayers getting value for money.

I don't believe in having high taxation. But - I believe, we deserve good services for the tax we give to our government.

I think the Irish people deserve more accountability where money goes.

Look at all those health boards - There should be 2 or 3 health boards in the country. Look at all those small hospitals. Do they have knowledge in all medical conditions? These hospitals should be upgraded or shut down.

Before, I get abuse for going off the topic - I believe - tax money needs to be spent wisely. If it needs to be raised - it should be raised equitabally.

(Sorry about the spelling)

Cork, not wishing to offend you , but....It has been pointed out to you before that a lot of the things you are complaining about , have not and are not being reformed by FF and indeed since they have been in power for most of the countries existance, they put much of the current situation in place.
Do they not listen to their supporters opinions?
Or is it the case as I think, that nothing gets done unless (and this also applies to a lesser degree to FG) some fat cheque is donated by some interes group to the party??
That is in essence what is at the heart of corruption.

Perhaps,state funds for the parties( a ban on fund raising of any type), and constitutional backing for a ban on TD's promoting local issues above national issues is what we want.
mm

Cork

have not and are not being reformed by FF[/QUOTE

they have not been reformed either by FG or Labour.

Reform of public services is not a topic that really has been achieved by any political party.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork

have not and are not being reformed by FF[/QUOTE

they have not been reformed either by FG or Labour.

Reform of public services is not a topic that really has been achieved by any political party.

Not the issue.

You are a FF supporter. ASsuming you are old enough to have the vote (and use it) you are one of the people responsible for voting them into power.

So, what you are in effect saying is that you have given you r support for a party who refuse to solve the problems of inefficiency that you want solved, and who are doing things that you feel are unconscionable - like raising raxes by more than the rate of inflation.

I dont care about your argument that "the other parties are no better". I agree - they arent. Thats why I refuse to vote for maintaining the status quo - for any major party to retain their seats.

You openly support this wastefulness on the grounds that no-one else is any better. Fine - then you accept that such wastefulness is a normal part of political Ireland.

Cope. Quit moaning. You have no position to moan from while you lend your support to these people.

jc

Cork

I dont care about your argument that "the other parties are no better". I agree - they arent. Thats why I refuse to vote for maintaining the status quo - for any major party to retain their seats.

I think that Michael Martin is a pretty good minister.

I think that he is a decent and capable Minister.

Even when you look at the minor partys such as Sinn Fein.

Where is the Health policy?

Was it right that Martin Ferris TD was using his medical card?

It is no wonder that the system needs change.

I feel - Michael Martin is the best Minister for Health in years.

He has massively increased the health budget - massive amounts of monies is being spent.

What we need is health management.

Tell me Cork how you figure Micheál Martin is a good minister, when after all the extra billions pumped into the health service over the last five years, it's still in a sorry mess??

In such a mess that it pays to send patients abroad for treatment:rolleyes:
He is the minister overseeing the *cough* health management you are talking about.

Whats Martin Ferris having a medical card to do with this??
Thats just fraud, nothing to do with the lack of Michae Martins capabilities.
mm

Cork

Most of the additional money went on staff. Then you had medical inflation.

If you could solve the health problem with money - it would be solved years ago.

It will take serious reform where the health service has got to become more efficent & effective.

Hard Decisions need to be taken. Michael Martin is a very capable & honest man. I really do not know much about the health stratergy - but I hope it works.

Our medical system needs big improvement but I don't think that it is in a " sorry mess".

Originally posted by Cork
Most of the additional money went on staff. Then you had medical inflation.

If you could solve the health problem with money - it would be solved years ago.

It will take serious reform where the health service has got to become more efficent & effective.

Hard Decisions need to be taken. Michael Martin is a very capable & honest man. I really do not know much about the health stratergy - but I hope it works.

Our medical system needs big improvement but I don't think that it is in a " sorry mess".

I'm sorry Cork but it is in a sorry mess,the following is a rather personal example, and you can contact me to verify the story if you wish.
My Father was extremely ill in St Vincents Hospital in Dublin.
His first night after being brought in through casualty, was spent on a trolly.
During his second night there, he fell off his bed, breaking his nose and cutting his eye, his face was covered in blood.
I went up to see him that morning(I hadn't been told) and his wounds hadn't even been dressed by 11 am.
Of course I called the registrar, and declared war.
He was more worried that I would sue, than in my fathers condition.
There was a patient in the same ward drinking vodka from a 7up bottle, who was being abusive.
There are thousands of stories across the country as bad as that...It is disgracefull, and to be quite frank,your statement about the minister being capable is utter nonsense.

I would respectively suggest that you address the facts before you make sweeping unsupported one line statements.
mm
p.s I realise that this has gone way off topic, but, the above was a necessary reply imho.

Cork

I too have personal experience of the health system. People on trollys, people waiting to be seen, Filthy ICU Units etc.

I too had a bad experience with the health system. I can't go into it in any more detail.

There should be Centres of Excellence in this Country. Public Health nurses need to be efficent and trained up well. Nurses need to keep up to date with medical developments.

I think that however bad the servise is: I would not describe it as a mess. Although, Some ascepts of the service are a shambles.

I think that trolly should never be used for more than 25 or 30 minutes. I think that the weekend service should be the same as the week day service. I think that the current feud bewteen the Minister for Health & Finance should be done through the airwaves so they people know what is happening.

Cork

I know that I too have gone away from the topic. But I think that in the light of more Health Cutbacks it is relevant to post Budget issues.


I think than Man - you are right. But, the health system is so vital - I just did not want to refer to it as a "mess". I wasn't playing politics. When you suffer a loss - you try and convince yourself that everything possible was done 4 the person.

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by Cork
I think that the current feud bewteen the Minister for Health & Finance should be done through the airwaves so they people know what is happening.

You must be MAD . . . to consider it useful in any way to conduct government business over the airwaves is completely bonkers! But if you think FF are going to do anything other than just sweep this sorry mess under their already bulging carpet then you're completely crazy . . .

Originally posted by Cork

There should be Centres of Excellence in this Country. Public Health nurses need to be efficent and trained up well. Nurses need to keep up to date with medical developments.

I think that however bad the servise is: I would not describe it as a mess. Although, Some ascepts of the service are a shambles.

I think that trolly should never be used for more than 25 or 30 minutes. I think that the weekend service should be the same as the week day service. I think that the current feud bewteen the Minister for Health & Finance should be done through the airwaves so they people know what is happening.

You can think, all you want, but the facts of the matter are that the minister you think is so capable, is totally responsible for the mess, through his obvious dis regard for patients of the public health service.
Charlie McCreevy is quite right imo, to be scolding his colleague, for the way he is running things.
and I don't want to hear the usual line from you, like " what would FG do, etc, etc,"...! It's what the current government are not doing that is pertinent.
mm

DiscoStu

Public Health nurses need to be efficent and trained up well. Nurses need to keep up to date with medical developments.

say that to a nurse and you would have your head ripped clean off.

After the nurses strike they were promised more pay, better training etc. courses were set up in the uni and colleges in ireland to train nurses to a degree level. however in that time what did the government do? they hired masses of foreign nurses on the cheap so this year the first batch of graduates are about to enter the workforce and they are told that there are no places for them due to the cheap labour that was fired from abroad.

What you must understand is that there is no, repeat no financial benifit for a nurse to go and get further training. my mother a staff nurse with over 20 years experience has done two degrees in oncology and managment, yet has not received a single penny in extra pay beside the annual increase due to inflation. in any other field of employment she would be considered a valuable asset yet is still looked upon with contempt by the government.

over the years nurses allowed themselves to be walked on due to the doctor(master, male) nurse(servent, female) mentality that was the norm. yet over the years as the nursing profession modernised they were not givien what quite frankly owed to them. so saying nursing needs to be modernised is quite an ill-informed and quite frankly ignorant thing to say.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
But, the health system is so vital - I just did not want to refer to it as a "mess". I wasn't playing politics.

The cynic in me says that had this been a FG minister you'd be beside yourself telling us how much better a track record FF had, and that not just the minister but the entire government should be thrown out for such a disgrace.

Then again, how you can claim to not be playing politics when you posted the following is beyond me.

I think that Michael Martin is a pretty good minister.
I think that he is a decent and capable Minister.
Even when you look at the minor partys such as Sinn Fein.
Where is the Health policy?
Was it right that Martin Ferris TD was using his medical card?
It is no wonder that the system needs change.
I feel - Michael Martin is the best Minister for Health in years.

Yeah - very unpolitical Cork. Talk up your own party, and cast aspersions at the others. Amazingly unpolitical and honest. Truly.

You might at least have the honesty to admit what you're doing, rather than making one-party-sided comments and then trying to defend them by claiming that you didnt want the topic to be a political football (on a poltics forum no less).

If you're not willing to discuss these points honestly, I'd rather you didnt discuss them at all. This is not a soap-box for you to promote your beloved party, and to be quite frank, I'm getting increasingly fed up of you treating it as one.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
I feel - Michael Martin is the best Minister for Health in years.

He has massively increased the health budget - massive amounts of monies is being spent.

Wrong again.

The budget comes from the minister of Finance, as you well know.
So, the massive amounts of extra monies have come from a minister who is currently getting a lot of flak because of his massive overspending.

Secondly, the amount of money doesnt matter a toss - it is how the money is used. How much significant reform has your precious minister introduced if he is so good, or is he just throwing the extra cash McGreedy gave him at the same old problems and inefficiencies in the same tired old way, and is great because, well, hes FF?

hc

Cork

I have seen at first hand the defiencincies in our health system. I have seen people of n trollys. I have seen grotty ICU units. I have met public health nurses that were away with the fairys. I met one pretty good one.

Overall - I am not defending or attacking any Minister for Health.

I think the system needs reform big time.

It is pretty crucial. It is urgent & of utmost importance.

gandalf

Cork I really think you should step back and think a while before you post on this again. I mean you say the health service is a disgrace no arguement from me on that, and then in the same breath you say things like you think that the government are doing a good job. THEY HAD 5 YEARS OF PLENTY where if they actually gave a damn about the country and were forward thinking they could have reformed the health service and made sure that money was not wasted. They didn't.

Getting back on topic, they could have also sorted out the infrastructure properly instead of the mess we are in now. Remember if it wasn't for a FF minister in the 50's Dublin would still have a tram line, now we're wasting money on building one again that alot of experts think is too small for the population belt it has to cover, they are building a port tunnel that is too small for a significant percentage of the trucks it is suppost to be servicing. But everythings behind schedule and costing more (6.7 Billion more!!! Nice management Bertie, looks like you are using that qualification you "got" from UCD!).

This is the same government that introduced the NCT where tax paying drivers (more tax now!) fail tests because their cars are worn out by sub standard roads that they are paying hefty taxes (VRT & Motor Tax) to actually use. THIS HAS ALL HAPPENED ON YOUR FAVOURITE PARTIES TERM IN OFFICE.

Please think before you reply to this Cork because I like bonkey believe your faith in FF is bordering on the hypocritical.

Gandalf.

Cork

FF have massively increased the health budget. Still we are getting a pretty shoddy service. The service in parts is a disgrace.

The problem is not one of money. It is one of inefficency. The Irish health service needs to become a modern & efficent one.

If that takes - closure of the smaller hospitals - close them.
If it takes - laying off certain staff - lay them off.
If it takes - scraping health boards - scrap them.

No political party in Ireland has a magic wound. It think all political partys are responsible for our health system.

if it wasn't for a FF minister in the 50's Dublin would still have a tram line,

Oh - A Tram would solve the transport problems of Dublin. Trams went out with the ark.

This is the same government that introduced the NCT

The NCT was an EU thing. We were one of the last countries in the EU to introduce it.

ALL HAPPENED ON YOUR FAVOURITE PARTIES TERM IN OFFICE.

Everything was smelling of roses before - It was not.

Yes we need a far improved health system.
Yes we need an intergrated transport system.

The Irish people are paying less tax now than in the previous FG/Labour government.

Charlie McCreevy has brought reform of our tax, pensions and savings area. Unemployment is low by EU standards. Bertie was influential in the Good friday agreement.

It is so easy to moan & groan and to look back with 20/20 vision. This state has achieved alot. Things are not perfect and things need big improvement.

This country still has problems - but what are the solutions?
Not all the problems we have can be laid at government & I thinkit is about time we asked ourselves what we as a people can do for our country.

I hope we do more than moan and groan.

It is so easy to moan & groan and to look back with 20/20 vision.

*cough* we are not looking back too far , in fact we are talking about the here and now.

Oh - A Tram would solve the transport problems of Dublin. Trams went out with the ark.

you are very fond of these types of sweeping unsupported statements-where is your evidence for this?

The problem is not one of money. It is one of inefficency. The Irish health service needs to become a modern & efficent one.

Is this finally an admission by you cork, that the party responsible for 80% of our governance over the years has built an ineffecient wastefull health service, indeed one that is a shambles, propped up with incredible strain by hard working, caring nurses and junior doctors??

Or are you saying that the responsibility for this lies with the parties who have been responsible for about 20% of our governance?? (Which doesn't wash by the way) Or are you just trolling with more meaningless one line party political, blah, blah blah...??

If as I suspect, the latter is the case I suggest you take your blinkers off and get real.

mm

Cork

Originally posted by Man
*cough* we are not looking back too far , in fact we are talking about the here and now.


Or are you saying that the responsibility for this lies with the parties who have been responsible for about 20% of our governance?? (Which doesn't wash by the way) Or are you just trolling with more meaningless one line party political, blah, blah blah...??

mm

The health systems has problems. Yet the blame game achieves nothing.

I could analyse the make up of the health boards over 30 years - But blaming is futile. I think that the health system needs organisation and efficency needs to be paramount.

We need Centres of Excellence. Their is no over night solution - that is why Minister Martin has brought in a stratergy.

I really don;t know too much about this stratergy - so If people do - let us know.

gandalf

Cork if you want to talk about the Health Service start up a new thread. Get back onto topic here. To be honest you are spouting the same crap here without offering anything new.

Gandalf.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
It think all political partys are responsible for our health system.

By that logic, no political party in Ireland is responsible for anything. This, however, does not stop you constantly telling us how bad it would be to have other parties in charge and how good a job FF are doing.

Of course, when faced with an issue like this where you cannot defend the current (and historically most common) government. it suddenly becomes "everyone's problem". Classic.

Explain to me, so, if such key problems are the responsibility of everyone, and not just of the parties government, why you feel that it is in any way important that FF stay in power as a "better" choice? Surely if they arent actually responsible for anything important, so their being in power is completely irrelevant.

Oh - no - wait. I'm falling for it again...applying the same logic to two seperate posts of yours. How foolish of me, I should know that cross-post consistency is a bit much to be asking.

Oh - A Tram would solve the transport problems of Dublin. Trams went out with the ark.

Dublin had one of the most extensive tram systems in Europe until it was shut down, due to a mistaken belief that public-owned transport (i.e. cars) would be a far cheaper, flexible, and therefore more preferable option. It was not "A tram", no more than Dublin Bus is "A bus" or Iarnrod Eireann is "A train". Then again, such honesty (or knowledge) might remove any semblance of credibility your argument presented.

Secondly, if trams went out with the Ark, why are they still central to transport in almost every major mainland European city? Are you trying to suggest that Dublin, with its massive traffic problems, is somehow more progressive then all these other cities where trams have become a backbone of mass-transit transport, and where traffic isnt a fraction of the problem faced in our capital?

Charlie McCreevy has brought reform of our tax, pensions and savings area.

And he's done such a good job of managing his finances that he has more or less bankrupted the country, which will have serious knock-on implications in future years - most typically in increased taxes and decreased investment in necessities like health and transport.

However, I'm sure that you'll manage to blame them on someone else, or make them "everyone's responsibility" if and when these knock-on implications of Charlie's "great job" come to pass.

Also - wasnt it you who was only a few days ago complaining that no minister should ever be allowed bring in increases above the rate of inflation. I thought McGreedy was doing a good job? What for the complaints then?

It is so easy to moan & groan and to look back with 20/20 vision. This state has achieved alot. Things are not perfect and things need big improvement.

No-one is doubting that the state has done well. What people have a problem with is the alacrity with which you are willing to talk up the successes of the state as successes of FF, but to write off failures of the state as "everyone's failure", or just avoid the issue entirely by re-telling us about the great things people did.

I mean - the minister of our failing health service is doing a good job according to you. Why? Cause he's increased funding...despite the fact that he hasnt increased funding (he was given more, which is different), and the fact that even you are openly admitting that money wont solve our problems. So exactly what has he done a good job at? Remind me again? Oh - yeah - I forgot - hes in the right party....that must be it.

Then there's McGreedy, who, despite your own complaints about his budget and his practical bankrupting of the country, youre now holding up as having done a good job. Yeah - so good that the public is baying for his blood based on the fact that he has managed to overspend, despite the signs being present that the economy was overheating and that the market was heading towards recession. In short, he's done a pathetic job, but despite even your own complaints elsewhere, youd have us believe hes done a good job.

As has Bertie, cause, you know, he had a hand in the Good Friday Agreement a whole 4 years ago, which is obviously more important than anything he may have done, or been involved with in the interim. Despite having to face wave after wave of scandals, he can stand up and ignore public opinion and keep his corrupt appointees around, offering nice little platitudes to the press and the hoi polloi, but he's done a good job cause, you know, he had a hand in that Agreement.


Damn - there I go again - looking for consistency between your posts. I'm sorry - Ill try and stop. Its hard though - I keep expecting you to use the same logic as the rest of the world - you're using FF-logic.

Not all the problems we have can be laid at government

Explain to me how the management of the health service and our transport industry can be laid at someone else's feet? Whos to blame? Stop offering bland contentless platitudes and distractions and deal with the issue at hand. If you want to blame someone other than those in charge, then blame someone.

I thinkit is about time we asked ourselves what we as a people can do for our country.

I hope we do more than moan and groan.

Well, most people here seem to be in agreement that one thing we can and should do is to stop offering blind support to a government that has singularly failed to tackle key issues over the course of its many stints in government.

You, however, seem to think that such blind adulation is somehow in the best interests of the country, despite your utter failure to offer a convincing reason as to why. Even your "best of a bad lot" comments are contentless - you have not pointed out a single actual reason as to why FF offer a better deal - you have merely offered contentless disparaging remarks and rhetoric.

I have to laugh a little at the irony (and hyprocracy) of someone blindly following FF party rhetoric telling us to ask ourselves what we can do for our country.

Ha ha. (that was me laughing)

If we all did what you did Cork, would we be any better off? Would FF have made a better job of our health and transport issues if they only had more votes? If so, then please explain how. If not, then I would suggest that you admit that the first thing we should be doing is not voting for a party who is clearly perpetuating the problems and has no real interest in tackling thorny issues because they know that the solutions will (in the short term) be less popular than the problems.

jc

Cork

And he's done such a good job of managing his finances that he has more or less bankrupted the country

This country is not bankrupt & McCreevy is doing a competant job despite the WORLD economic slowdown.

Services in this country have to be financed. Yet people bemoan having to pay more motor tax.

Where do people expect the money to come from?

Taxation - The FF/PD government have reduced both personal & coperate taxation.

Borrowing - Done that road before.

Where would FG or Labour have financed their manifesto plans? What Big solutions have FG, Labour, SF or the Greens?

People moan about paying a little more motor tax - yet the continue to enjoy low personal tax rates?

FF/PDs have improved both Childrens Allowance and the OAP Pension - & I say "Well done".

They have brought in the mimimum wage - where subsequently people were working for £40 per week.

But getting back to motor tax - What appropriate level of motor tax would ye suggest.

A rise of 10% is not bad when inflation is bewteen 5-6%.

But moaners will still moan.