Got any questions ? .. . Killing Stereotypes

yellum

While hoping this won't turn all trollish, does anyone have any questions for the GLB members about how we think/act/exist ?

This is aimed at the straight members who might just want some clarification on some matters.

example:
Q: If you are a guy and lwear leather pants, have long hair and wear mascara are you gay ?
A: Nope, not at all. Thats just an indvidual who likes this look

Get the idea .....

Pepe LeFrits

What's with the voice thing ?

Gordon

Great post idea.

I am curious if homosexual men like women's breasts. Sorry if this seems silly but I personally love breasts and couldn't imagine not loving them.

Do you appreciate female bodies at all?

Terminator

This is stupid.

Gordon

Sorry, I am serious though.

Shinji

This is stupid.

No it's not, it's a perfectly sensible topic. One of the main problems most gay people have is that straight people don't actually understand what it means to be gay (beyond the obvious).

Mike; in my experience that's an affectation that a relatively small number of (usually highly effeminate) gay men have. I don't think it's natural - rather it's an attempt to conform with a comfortable gay stereotype, just like a straight person might conform with a specific type of stereotype. Not all gay people are camp; and not all camp people are gay

Gordon; if you see a stunningly good looking bloke, can you say to yourself "god that's a handsome guy" (even if you don't say it out loud for fear of people getting the wrong idea )? AFAICS that's how it is for gay men and attractive women - it doesn't make you blind to beauty in the opposite sex, it just means you aren't necessarily sexually attracted to it.

Gordon

Ye thats what I think too, I do find some blokes good looking but I don't think sexually of them or feel aroused by them. I'm sure that's the other way round too but...

What about breasts? Are they just insignificant growths?

Shinji

What about breasts? Are they just insignificant growths?

I'm sure they're very aesthetically pleasing

yellum

I have nothing against breasts. They're symbols of sexuality in the western world and environmental conditioning or something makes me appreciate them.

Hell, a womans natural body is something to be appreciated, just like a blokes. Aesthetics yes.

Terminator

Originally posted by Shinji
No it's not, it's a perfectly sensible topic. One of the main problems most gay people have is that straight people don't actually understand what it means to be gay (beyond the obvious).

Good post Shinji. I guess I have a lot of negative memories associated with some of the comments posted - a few of which have since been deleted.

Also, I didn't think that we would have to explain ourselves (so early on) to everyone else.

But given the fact that we're part of the main site, and not hidden away in communities, I suppose some people are gonna be curious :eek:

Gordon

Quite. But you don't have to explain yourselves to anybody, it's just nice to educate the masses.

I'm also curious as to the voice "thing". I would have thought on the same lines as Shinji but am curious to see what a homosexual person thinks of the subject. (as I can only believe Shinji is hetero coz he's being so vague about the truth )

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Terminator

Oh yes, that Dale Winton / Gay Al voice thing ... basically its a feminine characteristic that a relatively small number of gay men have.

And its not restricted to gay men - some straight men have it aswell. Maybe it has something to do with being surrounded by girls and doing girly things. I dunno.

Shinji

Also, I didn't think that we would have to explain ourselves (so early on) to everyone else.

It's not a case of explaining yourself really... Understanding promotes tolerance in my experience. How many homophobes have suddenly become entirely accepting of it when they discover that a friend is gay and begin to understand what it actually means?

as I can only believe Shinji is hetero coz he's being so vague about the truth

Ahhh, that's just my aura of mystique

To expand on the voice thing - the person I know with the worst case of that is a friend of mine called Tim. I knew him for ages online and then met him at a party... He's a linux admin and ex-EQ addict and I'd expected a gruff fat bloke with a big beard. Instead, he's a (quite good looking) disco bunny in a tight black t-shirt who can dance till he drops to the cheesiest music ever and has THE campest julian clary type voice ever - and actually has all the affectations of a stereotype gay man, right down to "ooooh behave". I kid ye not.

He's straight. It took me a while to believe this

His reasoning is that he was raised in a family with multiple older sisters and no brothers, so for a lot of his life all his socialising was with girls. So I guess that's the reason in a lot of instances...

logic1

Originally posted by Gordon
but am curious to see what a homosexual person thinks of the subject. about the truth )

Sure Shinji already told you

.logic.

Jak

Leaving the gay aspect aside,

Do you folk not find the camp voices and behaviour insanely irritating? 2 People I know very well are gay. 1 is camp as bejaysus, and it has gotten worse since he 'came out'. Not many of us really liked the guy that much beforehand, but now, we just keep hoping he might go 'back in'.

The other is as he was before I found out, just gay, but still the same bloke and a great laugh to go for a drink with etc. Nothing changed in his character and we still are friends.

I think a problem a lot of you have is you change who you are on top of being gay, and thay may be part of the reason you find people who no longer want to associate with you.

If you are a gay bloke fine. But why act like a woman? If anything wouldn't that be a turn off for you?

JAK.

Typedef

Originally posted by Shinji
Instead, he's a (quite good looking) disco bunny in a tight black t-shirt who can dance till he drops to the cheesiest music ever

Now wait just a second officer, I like to rave, but I don't necessarily think that makes me gay.

Granted I had this one friend once, when I was young and wilder that I 'might' have done it with, but, then again, I'm straight, so that was a bit of a misnomer.

Just on the Campness, yes it could get up your nose, but for me it's not so much campness that would get up my nose as aggressive dikes.

Somehow aggressive dikes are really threatening. I don't as a general rule of thumb find gay blokes threatening, but some dikes, I dunno, I always get the feeling that the butch ones hate me, because I'm a man. A feeling that is probably not too far from the truth, then again, maybe that is just the feeling I get. Maybe it's just me who feels threatned by butch dikes. Maybe a bit of both.
</epiphany>*
*bwhahaha

azezil

would ya ever come on to a guy that was straight?

does my bum look big in this?

logic1

I feel more threathened by Dutch Bikes but that's neither here nor there.

As regards to campness personally I find it massively irritating. So much so that when a friend of mine comes out with us I usually split from the group because I'm never far from telling him to **** off.

It's alot to do with his character aswell but the whole fake girly acting is a big part of it.

.logic.

DeVore

God I cant even stand *women* who do the whole giggly-gurl thing. Its *intensely* irritating.

I want to throttle those really camp guys, grab them by their throats, shake them and scream *WAKE UP!!* at them.

But then I want to do that to a LOT of people

DeV.

ps: the reason I put this forum in the main area was so that straight people can come here and ask questions too... I think the main reason there is hatred (of anything) is ignorance.
Communication is the cure for that...

Shinji

Now wait just a second officer, I like to rave, but I don't necessarily think that makes me gay.

Yeah, but there's a difference between someone who likes to rave, and a disco bunny in a tight top who dances with one hand in the small of his back

The uber-camp thing really annoys me in some ways. People who are naturally a bit camp, that's fine, but the whole hamming it up girly act is stunningly annoying. I think it probably annoys normal gay guys a lot more than it annoys straight people actually, because they feel like they're being tarred with this brush...

would ya ever come on to a guy that was straight?

Would you ever come on to a lesbian?

BuffyBot

Originally posted by azezil
would ya ever come on to a guy that was straight?

does my bum look big in this?

To question one: yes I have done - but only because I thought they were bi or I was completely pissed, or both.


To question two: yes

Mr.Applepie

And its not restricted to gay men - some straight men have it aswell. Maybe it has something to do with being surrounded by girls and doing girly things. I dunno.

I have a friend just like shinji's. Completely camp. he has the voice everything. His idea of good music is britney gareth gates etc. yet im nearly 95% certain he is straight

yellum

Originally posted by Jak


Do you folk not find the camp voices and behaviour insanely irritating?

If it seems forced and fake yeah, same as anything else thats forced and fake. I also hate D4 accents from recruitment agents no matter what county they're in. Many things can irritate me. I try to be tolerant though if people do not mean what they are doing or are not putting on some fake persona.

While coming out makes people mmore relaxed about their sexuality, it can also mean adjusting to a new social group and trying to fit in, I'm only guessing here but I guess if someone assumes the camp stereotype they may think thewy can fit into the gay community better then. Seems sad really that people break free of their closet only to act out a straight world stereotype.


Not many of us really liked the guy that much beforehand, but now, we just keep hoping he might go 'back in'.

Maybe its only now that he feels more relaxed to be his "true self", people can change when they come out as its freedom. They want to do things they'd never do before that feels moe natural for them.


Nothing changed in his character and we still are friends.

Am not looking to cause an argument here but you seem to be opposed to change or people expressing themselves. I agree theres forced campness from some but some people are naturally like that, and as Shinjii said some are straight !


I think a problem a lot of you have is you change who you are on top of being gay, and thay may be part of the reason you find people who no longer want to associate with you.

!

yellum

Originally posted by azezil
would ya ever come on to a guy that was straight?

does my bum look big in this?

Yeah, have done, will prob do again. Wouldn't come on strong though. Sometimes they're no longer straight after you come on to them.

Must meet you sometime, heard you're cute.

Jak

To clarify,

When i say change on top of etc.. I am refering to my earlier point about being camp, the gay voice, ooh la la etc. And when i said one friend hadn't changed, I meant to say he hadn't become a handbag wearing queen.

I simply cannot stand it, and I was wondering why they do it?

It's all a bit forced in my view, and while comedians such as Julian clary or Graham Norton can get away with it, regular folk and that bloke who does the intermissions on ITV cannot.

JAK.

DapperGent

Right stereotypical questions:

In your opinion:
Are gay men more promiscous than straight men?

Is it easier to score in a gay nightclub?

Do gay men have more one night stands than straight men?

Does sex come into play earlier in a homosexual relationship than a heterosexual one?

Are gay men generally better looking than straight men?

Are gay men generally more artistically talented (music, poetry etc) than straight men?

Don't mean to offend anyone I'm just curious.

De Rebel

Originally posted by DapperGent


Replies in BOLD

Right stereotypical questions:very stereotypical !

In your opinion:
Are gay men more promiscous than straight men?
Some are, some aren't

Is it easier to score in a gay nightclub?
For the vultures, YES, for the less confident, shy, young, older, handicapped, not so good looking, etc, etc, (i.e. the NORMAL)probably about the same: Nightclubs are intimidating for the majority, no matter what

Do gay men have more one night stands than straight men?
Some do, some don't

Does sex come into play earlier in a homosexual relationship than a heterosexual one?
Depends - for many guys who are in/inish the closet YES, because their only venture out of the close is for a bit of the quare thing. For gay guys who are IN a relationship, I'd say its about the same as for straights, sometimes sex leads to love, sometimes love leads to sex

Are gay men generally better looking than straight men?
Stupid question, OF COURSE WE ARE

Are gay men generally more artistically talented (music, poetry etc) than straight men?
Two possible responses to this one (a) Yes , OF COURSE WE ARE. (b) F**k off and stop stereotyping gay men!

Don't mean to offend anyone I'm just curious.
Andi'm certainly happy that you took the time and trouble to ask.

DapperGent

Originally posted by De Rebel
(b) F**k off and stop stereotyping gay men!

FFS I'm not stereotyping gay men. I'm just wondering what you think of said stereotypes.

shotamoose

I think De Rebel was being light-hearted there. Gosh, straight people have no sense of humour

BuffyBot

Originally posted by DapperGent
FFS I'm not stereotyping gay men. I'm just wondering what you think of said stereotypes.

<scouser> Calm down, Calm down</scouser>

He was just having a laugh

Shinji

Actually I thought he was being massively defensive rather than light-hearted, but hey

Responding to the questions slightly differently...

Are gay men more promiscous than straight men?

No. Straight men are pretty damn promiscous when you think about it though - or would be given the chance!

Is it easier to score in a gay nightclub?

Compared to what? If you're a good looking guy it's as easy to score in a gay nightclub as it would be if you were a good looking bird. I have a (bi) friend who is very good looking in a boyish kind of way, and he basically gets this in gay clubs - blokes buying drinks for him and so on. On the other hand if you're Joe Average, you won't find it any easier to score a good looking bloke than you would find it to score a lovely lady.

Do gay men have more one night stands than straight men?

Some of them do. A lot of straight men would probably have more one night stands if the opportunity arose, and the opportunity certainly seems to be there more for gay men. However just as many straight men aren't up for that, so it is with a lot of gay men - it just isn't their scene and they're only interested in sex in the context of a loving relationship. This surprised me at first as well because the one stereotype I'd assumed WOULD be true is that gay guys are all at it like rabbits...

Does sex come into play earlier in a homosexual relationship than a heterosexual one?

I think so yes - although that's a pretty sweeping statement. I think sex is less of an issue in homosexual relationships, because men take it that bit less seriously than women do. I know a lot of people in homosexual realtionships which seem more like very strong, loving friendships with casual sex attached, if you see what I mean.

Are gay men generally better looking than straight men?

No, although I guess if you did a headcount and totted up the stats you'd find a higher percentage of gay guys spending lots of money on clothes and beauty stuff. Not always true though.

Are gay men generally more artistically talented (music, poetry etc) than straight men?

Actually, yeah. I don't know why but a lot of the gay people I know are excellent designers, creatives, writers, musicians etc. Perhaps it's because they, in general, had it quite rough growing up because of their sexuality, and a lot of them got involved in creative or intellectual pursuits to escape that; or maybe it's genetic. Who knows - either way, although it's not a hard and fast rule, it's certainly a stereotype that comes under the heading of "no smoke without fire".

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Talliesin

I'd say the gay == creative stereotype probably has origins in the attitudes to homosexuality within artistic and creative circles. It's easier to be out if you're a gay interior decorator than a gay special forces sniper.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

"but but... I can't shoot him.. he's beautiful!!"

p

Originally posted by Jak:
2 People I know very well are gay. 1 is camp as bejaysus, and it has gotten worse since he 'came out'. Not many of us really liked the guy that much beforehand, but now, we just keep hoping he might go 'back in'.


Hope this isn't too off topic, but that post just called for an onion article:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3837/newly_out_gay_man.html

- Kevin

Andor

Are gay men more promiscous than straight men?

Probably, since you'll sometimes find theres double the single-minded guys than in a straight relationship!

Is it easier to score in a gay nightclub?

I wouldn't know, amn't too keen on going to one of those places either.

Do gay men have more one night stands than straight men?

Like Shinji said, some do some dont

Does sex come into play earlier in a homosexual relationship than a heterosexual one?

Depends, though in general i would say yes, since most men treat sex in a lighter fashion to women

Are gay men generally better looking than straight men?

nahh, though some are far more obsessive of their looks than straight guys.

Are gay men generally more artistically talented (music, poetry etc) than straight men?

I think yes, in alot of cases.



oh, and

Do you folk not find the camp voices and behaviour insanely irritating?

I do, but i know 2 guys like that and one is straight. its not so much 'the camp voices and behaviour', as that would imply its only found in homosexuals.

azezil

spawned of the gene thread...

are gay people less open to matters of sexuality/ sexual expression?
i ask this because many of the replys from straight people were 'yes i'd give it a go' while gay people seemed unwilling to even try it straight for a while!?

Shinji

i ask this because many of the replys from straight people were 'yes i'd give it a go' while gay people seemed unwilling to even try it straight for a while!?

Mmm... I think that's mostly because the question was being interpreted differently. Straight people see it as "would you be prepared to experiment", gay people see it as "would you be prepared to change to being straight"... Different questions. I certainly don't think gay males are any less open to experimentation than straight males - less so if anything.

STaN

Originally posted by azezil
are gay people less open to matters of sexuality/ sexual expression?
i ask this because many of the replys from straight people were 'yes i'd give it a go' while gay people seemed unwilling to even try it straight for a while!?

I think the people that would "give it a go" are curious and are not 100% gay per say. Or maybe its because allot of straight ment fanatsize about other men?

If your totally gay, there is no way you would even consider "trying it straight", it would be the same for a totally straight man trying it on with a man, its just not done.

If you have a tendancy to even look at men, every so often, then your talking.

Xelsior

Shinji:

Understanding promotes tolerance in my experience.

Pity it doesnt promote Acceptance, homosexuals aren't something that should be merely tolerated, you'd swear we were some sort of other species the way some people go on.

Shinji

Stan - that raises a question in my mind; is anyone actually "totally" gay or "totally" straight?

I don't think there's really anyone out there who wouldn't cross over given the right set of circumstances and/or intoxicating substances....



Xelsior.... That's not strictly fair, a hell of a lot of straight people are perfectly accepting of homosexuals. I used the word "tolerance" because, well, that's the first step isn't it - and on the flipside, there are lots who haven't even taken that first step.

Yurmasyurda

Originally posted by Shinji
Stan - that raises a question in my mind; is anyone actually "totally" gay or "totally" straight?

I don't think there's really anyone out there who wouldn't cross over given the right set of circumstances and/or intoxicating substances....

Depends really, due to an acceptance issue when I was younger I tried a few things with some pretty nice girls but never liked it, I just had to come to realisation and I will never be with a girl again (sexually of course) no matter how intoxicated I am.

De Rebel

Originally posted by DapperGent

Originally posted by De Rebel
(b) F**k off and stop stereotyping gay men!


FFS I'm not stereotyping gay men. I'm just wondering what you think of said stereotypes.

ahm I was having a laugh. I apologise if you though I was being serious, but given that you only posted half of my comment I expect that you knew that anyway and that your just a Dub doing what Dub's do best and being indignant.

Prizes for reading my response in the way I intended it to be read:

• Shotamoose "I think De Rebel was being light-hearted there" Gets joint first prize
• BuffyBot"He was just having a laugh" Also gets to enjoy a joint
• Shinji "Actually I thought he was being massively defensive rather than light-hearted" gets a little prize for no reason other than the fact that he is a Mod and it pays to keep the Mods on side
• DapperGent"FFS I'm not stereotyping gay men. I'm just wondering what you think of said stereotypes" gets the aforementioned apology

I really was trying to be lighthearted. I think that this “Are gay men generally more artistically talented (music, poetry etc) than straight men?” is stereotyping. I’m not getting at DapperGent for asking the question, its valid given the way in which the media portray gays and the way in which many gay men portray themselves.

Some gay guys are massively artistically talented (!) and some are not. Some would be allowed to decorate my bedroom, and a hell of a lot would not. Who knows what the correct answer is, but looking back at the known gay composers, playwrights, poets, painters etc. and even doubling the number to allow for closet cases – I doubt that there is anything statistically significant.

Looking at this from a historical perspective it appears to me that one of the reasons that gays are associated with the arts is that it is not an area where heterosexuals have felt challenged. So a gay guy who wants to paint is allowed to get on with it, and to be himself. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for many other vocations, professions and careers, where gays are not tolerated, and if they are allowed enter at all its only by repressing one of the most important aspects of their personality. Thankfully, much of this is changing.

Well thats a more verbose response than my original one. Sorry again if you took me up wrong. I really didn’t mean to be aggressive, was just having a laugh.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by De Rebel

BuffyBot"He was just having a laugh" Also gets to enjoy a joint

*koff* I would never..

But anyway - back to the point. I have no artistic talents at all. I know many similar gay people...so I think it's definitely one stereotype which is not true!

DapperGent

Originally posted by De Rebel
ahm I was having a laugh. I apologise if you though I was being serious, but given that you only posted half of my comment I expect that you knew that anyway and that your just a Dub doing what Dub's do best and being indignant.

Sorry just saw this. I couldn't be sure if you were offended or not and I wanted to be clear that these weren't my opinions just common stereotypes. Erring on the side of caution if you will.
By the way I'm from Meath.

Originally posted by De Rebel
I think that this “Are gay men generally more artistically talented (music, poetry etc) than straight men?” is stereotyping.

I don't understand how a question can be stereotyping. If I'd left out the Are and the question mark it would have been.

Originally posted by De Rebel
Sorry again if you took me up wrong. I really didn’t mean to be aggressive, was just having a laugh.

Dats alright.

Clintons Cat

isnt the stereotypical campness something to do with self promotion?

Or is it more to do with creating a sense of identity,where the conventional signposts through life that markout a persons development (marraige/mortgage/kids) have been eroded,hence the importance of the "pink pound" to marketing men.

it hasnt always been the case that people have been comfortable expressing their sexuality openly. In adopting a set of mannerisms wasnt/isnt it a way of "letting people know"?
by adopting such tribal totems doesnt one not only make a statement about ones sexuality but also on ones outlook on life and the type of people one wants to associate with what anthropologists call mirroring.

i remember having a conversation with a gay friend who was quite vociferous about the more effete members of the gay community,it was his veiw that they reinforced "straight societys" predjudices against gay people.
I also seem to recall reading someplace that some self styled "Screaming queens" tended to veiw the more conservativly mannered gay people as having one foot firmly in the closet,ready to retreat back into straight society if the going got tough.

veiwed from either extreme both points of veiw could be seen as either entirely justified or entirely unreasonable depending on one persons outlook on life,experiences and political or sociological outlook on pink issues.Both veiws could be seen as being a form of reverse descrimination,that could only be adressed when the underlying causes of social exclusion (unequal status on marraige,mortgage,pensions,adoption,age of consent,) are eradicated.

hope that makes sense.

De Rebel

DapperGent

Thanks for your reply.

Stereotyping can take many forms. And stereotyping is not always offensive. Your question is not offensive, in some ways it could be considered flattering. However that is not the point. I would contend that even asking that question in some ways reinforces the stereotype and thus is a subtle form of stereotyping.

Many gays are sensitive to the whole “artistic” tag because of its effeminate connotations. Its particularly the case in this country where coming out was made all the more difficult for people because immediately you uttered the words “I’m gay” the listener immediately associated you with Oscar Wilde, Micheal McLiamore, Kenneth Williams and Rock Hudson. Not to mention the more extreme aspects of David Norris.(Note 1) Great people but not exactly what an insecure 17 year old wants envisaged as his future. Positive role models were few and far between, and in many ways this is still the case.

Like I said before, I’m not getting at you for asking the question, its valid given the way in which the media portray gays and the way in which many gay men portray themselves. And i'm certainly happy that you took the time and trouble to ask it and have taken the time to follow up rather than just walking away annoyed by my seemingly smart assed response. Fair dues to you.


/afterthought

Mods, how about a thread listing positive gay role models – in the last few years I have had the opportunity to speak to the parents of a number of young gay guys, and one of the challenges is convincing them that life for their offspring is not necessarily destined to be a sad dreary drudge of handbag waving gyrations and slow angst ridden descent into a miserable AIDS related death. People have the strangest ideas and seem to assume the worst. One point I find difficulty with in these situations is listing even three or four content, fulfilled gay men who could be held up as positive role models. I am fortunate enough to know many guys who fit the bill, but they are not household names.


(Note 1) I have great personal respect for David, his courageous campaign has greatly improved the quality of life for every gay man in this country. In mentioning him here I am simply alluding to his more extreme and somewhat arcane mannerisms and how they are generally perceived.

Shinji

If you think a thread like that would be interesting, go ahead and start one!

That's what the New Thread button is for.... Actually I reckon that could be an interesting one, although I can't think of any particularly famous gay role models offhand. I know some gay people in real life who I think would fill the role - very successful, happy people who are comfortable with their sexuality, basically - but famous ones are few and far between. Let's see what you can come up with!

azezil

In ghey sexual relations is one partner always the 'receiver' (bitch) or do ye take it in turns?

what happens if two, dominant types get together? due ye duel it out to see who's gonna be the bitch?

HerrLipp

In gay sexual relations is one partner always the 'receiver' (bitch) or do ye take it in turns?

Think this is a question best answered by yellum