Creatine: The good and the bad.

logic1 · 26-11-2002 12:42pm #1

Alright, seeing as Creatine has been mentioned in another thread I think it’s time we found out exactly what the thoughts are on creatine among the users here.

Hopefully we’ll be able to separate some facts from all the fiction and get some informed, unbiased opinions on Creatine usage in a sports environment.

Let’s start with exactly what Creatine is:

Believe it or not everyone takes creatine whether they know it or not.
Creatine is a combination of three different amino acids, glycine, arginine, and methionine, occurring naturally in fish and meat. Normally than 1 gram per day is supplied by the diet and another gram is synthesized (mainly by the kidneys). Synthesis is the only source for vegetarians.

How creatine works:

Creatine simply works by increasing the energy available in your muscles. To do this it must flood your muscles with ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate). When Creatine is ingested and enters the muscles it bonds with a phosphate and becomes creatine phosphate (CP). CP (creatine phosphate) can then donate a phosphate molecule to ADP (adenosine tri-phosphate) to form ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate). ATP is the energy currency of the cell and is used to drive almost all cellular functions and is a crucial molecule in muscular contraction. Supplementing with creatine increases the body's ATP production thus enhancing performance and decreasing fatigue in intense, short duration activities such as weightlifting and sprinting (NCAA).
Creatine also pulls water into your muscle cells. This gives you a "pumped" look because your muscles have expanded with the increase of water that is trapped in your muscles.

Is Creatine safe:

Well this is the main reason behind my post. I’d like to get your opinions on whether you think Creatine is safe or if it gives an unfair advantage when taken over periods of time.

On November 12, 1999 at the 19th Annual Southwest American College of Sports Medicine Meeting, two long term creatine studies were presented from the Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab at the University of Memphis*. Both studies showed that 9 months of creatine supplementation (taking an average of 5 grams per day) in athletes had no negative effects on markers of renal function or muscle and liver enzymes in comparison to athletes not taking creatine.
* Here are the actual studies referenced above
1.Kreider R, Rasmussen C, Ransom C, Melton C, Greenwood M, Stroud T, Cantler E, Milnor P, Almada A, Greenhaff P. Long-term creatine supplementation does not affect markers of renal stress in athletes.
2.Almada A, Kreider R, Ransom J, Melton C, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Stroud T, Cantler E, Milnor P, Earnest C. Long-term creatine supplementation does not affect muscle or liver enzyme efflux in athletes.
Long term side effects:

Opponents of creatine supplementation cite several reasons for not using creatine. The NCAA recently banned the distribution of creatine by college's to their athletes "because of the lack of long-term studies on possible side effects (6)." They claim that since creatine is a relatively new supplement there is no way to tell whether or not it has any long-term side effects.
Steven Scott Plisk, director of sports conditioning at Yale University says, "it has been used in the United Kingdom since the early 1980's without any problems... if creatine caused long-term side effects, there would be indicators in the shorter studies. With anabolic steroids, you see some signs in the short term that warn you about what's coming in the long term, and you don"t see any of that with creatine (7)." There have been several studies conducted on creatine supplementation, which concluded that long term creatine use has no side effects (8 and 9).

6. NCAA Clamps Down on Supplements (New NCAA rule disallowing creatine distribution draws criticism). Momentum Media. August/ September 2000. http://www.momentummedia.com/articles/am/am1205/bbsupplements.htm

7. Hawes, Kay. Creatine Boom Creates Administrative Challenges. The NCAA News. September 14, 1998.
http://www.ncaa.org/news/1998/19980914/active/3532n03.html

8. Poortmans, Jacques R. and Marc Francaux. Long-term Oral Creatine Supplementation Does not Impair Renal Function in Healthy Athletes. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 31 (1999): 1108-1111.

9. Schilling, Brian K., et al. Creatine Supplementation and Health Variables: a Retrospective Study. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 33 (2001): 183-186

Cramping And Dehydration:
Some coaches claim that creatine has caused dehydration and muscle cramps among their athletes. Ross Bailey, head athletic trainer at Texas Christian University believes that creatine is the cause of frequent cramping and pulled hamstrings among athletes at Texas Christian. "We have no scientific evidence, but the use of creatine is the only thing that has changed" says Bailey(4). There is no scientific evidence to support his claims as he states, there are only anecdotal reports. The cause of muscle cramps and dehydration are both due to inadequate water consumption, not creatine supplementation. There is scientific evidence to verify that creatine does not cause dehydration or muscle cramps among college athletes.

4. Huggins, Sally. Energy Supplement Stirs up Debate. The NCAA News. October 28, 1996. http://www.ncaa.org/news/1996/961028/active/3338n02.html

Kidney Problems:
Opponents of creatine supplementation also like to state that creatine is hard on the kidneys and can cause kidney damage with long term use. Once again, there is no scientific evidence to back up their claims. There is scientific evidence to refute these claims however. A new study examined whether or not oral creatine supplementation affected the kidneys of athletes over short-, medium-, and long-term periods of supplementation. The researchers concluded that "no detrimental effects on athletes' kidney functions from short-, medium-, or long-term use of this supplement (8)."

8. Poortmans, Jacques R. and Marc Francaux. Long-term Oral Creatine Supplementation Does not Impair Renal Function in Healthy Athletes. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 31 (1999): 1108-1111.

Unfair advantage:

This is probably the point most in contention. Personally I don’t think Creatine gives you more of an advantage than any other random supplement can. Creatine is available to anyone right across the board. The argument that Creatine can give you an unfair advantage is exactly the same as arguing that vitamins or protein power can give you an unfair advantage. If used correctly all of these supplements coupled with a good work ethic and hard, high intensity training will make you a better athelete. But the argument that creatine should be banned due to it giving an unfair advantage is in my opinion ludicrous.

Post back with yer thoughts

All info in this post has been taken from several different sources and websites which I have come across while learning about creatine over the past few months.

.logic.

Jak · 26-11-2002 1:31pm

Very good post Logic.

Not really much I need to add other than a few quick personal thoughts. There will be repetition from things Logic already pointed out.

Creatine is essentially a food. It provides energy to your muscles and we are all 'on it'. When training your reserves of this critical energy source are depleted.

The point in creatine supplementation is to boost recovery and ensure that in your next session you can give full effort to your training.

It is not in any way pro active.

If you are not doing the work, it will do SFA for you. All it does is provide people on intense training regimes with the ability to push themselves further more often. This is where gains are to be made. This is why it is not for everybody. If you are prancing about with your training, you will probably easily restore creatine levels through natural food sources.

As mentioned it also improves water retention in the muscles through cell bonding. Hence if you are not taking ample fluid in your diet it can lead to cramps/dehydration. This is very very easily avoidable (and most people don't drink enough water anyway).

Anyhows - that's kind of all I have to say on the matter for now.

Frankly, I have long since past caring whether people take the advice or otherwise - but I will always favour the advice of someone with experience and who gained results over random wagon jumping nay sayers.

JAK.

ps- Any linking of creatine with steroids or any of that junk in this thread will be removed. I have thresholds for unsubstantiated idiocy.

xern · 26-11-2002 5:52pm

Good post logic!

I used creatine a fue years ago, i was playing alot of rugby and training 6 nights a week so i wanted something to keep me going!
creatine was great, I had loads of energy i trained really hard, i could do all tha laps all the physical stuff and not be sore or stiff the next day, i got the odd cramp the afterwords. after i took the recommended dose of creatine i also got pains in my lower back which i prosume were my kidneys but it would go after an hour. I haven't taken it in the last fue years i'm not playing rugby anymore, (i work shifts!) and i'm not as active. but i found that it was great for energy for intense training and quick recovery. so apart from the odd cramp and kidney pains it's good stuff!

xern

thedrowner · 27-11-2002 5:45pm

how is creatine linked to creatinine?

i know that creatinine is formed from the phosphocreatine you talked about in your post

i had the fortune (yeah, right) of doing experiments with urine samples in college last week. if you have to much creatinine in your urine, the long term affects are mental retardation. (im taking this straight from my college notes!) it also imbalances the ratio's of substances found in the urine, which can lead to all sorts of horrible ailments.

logic1 · 27-11-2002 6:03pm

Creatinine is a natural byproduct of Creatine metabolism and of creatine production. Depending on the quality of your creatine powder you can have anywhere from 100ppm to 7,000ppm in some cases.

I've never heard of any studies linking Creatinine with mental retardation as it occurs naturally in the body anyway.

.logic.

Jak · 27-11-2002 6:04pm

Glad you brought it up.

Creatine is not Creatinine. Repeat this.

This is the most common mistake made and has been made even by well informed journal authors unfortunately.

A decent and well referenced article on this misconception is found here at athletictrainer.

Article Link

JAK.

thedrowner · 27-11-2002 6:11pm

not much is known about creatine...what i'll do is ask my lecturer to give me a bit of info on it.

are phoshocreatine and creatine phosphate the same thing?
if so:
i know creatinine is not the same as creatine, but creatinine is formed from phosphocreatine, so surely the amounts in the body would be proportional?

Jak · 27-11-2002 6:44pm

not much is known about creatine...

What?

Listen.

Go finish your science degree. Read some of the links posted up.

You will find your answers.

JAK.

thedrowner · 28-11-2002 2:47pm

in the article that was posted it said:

"Under normal circumstances without creatine supplementation, increased levels of blood creatinine indicate a decrease in kidney filtration rate (16), which is indeed a sign of kidney dysfunction"

the kidney's regulate so much in your body, if kidney's aren't regulating properly the concentrations of things can change, and this can produce toxic affects on the body, and this is how mental retardation sometimes occurs from problems such as this.

i posted the little knowledge i have about creatinine in the hope of giving and receiving information- i'd like to understand it more. if u think im saying something wrong, why not say that, without getting bitchy on top of it?

Jak · 28-11-2002 3:34pm

I'm getting bitchy because I do not have the time to get involved in scientific debate here. The questions you are asking could be easily answered for yourself if you spent a bit more time reading up on the issue I'm sure.

What this thread is concerned with is the basics of what creatine is and does, personal experiences and exisiting research indicating the effects good or bad. I would like to keep it clear and on track. I do not want it turned into a collection of science notes.

A list of journals and articles has been linked to show some of these studies, but your own questions are purely academic and simply cloud the issue. As of yet you have offered nothing more than musings on how it might possibly have negative effects and made unfounded links between it and mental retardation.

Again I ask you for actual research indicating this link between dosed creatine supplementation in healthy people in training and mental retardation.

Again I would be genuinely interested in reading it.

JAK.

thedrowner · 28-11-2002 4:47pm

but youre just twisting around what i said! i never said that there was a link, i said what i knew about creatinine and i asked how it was linked to creatine to see if there was a connection. i would consider asking on this thread a form of reading up on the issue-thats what these boards are here for aren't they, to discuss and inform? i dont think there's any need to get bitchy just because you dont agree with what i wrote!

i will do my best to get examples for you. i can only go on what my lecturer's told me, so it'll be a while. i only posted using my own knowledge on the subject and i thought it was relevant enough to be added, and ask a few questions on it-sorry if it was dragging the thread off the track, i didnt feel it was when i posted it.

RapierX · 28-11-2002 6:48pm

I used Creatine for 2 months, i gained about 10 lbs, 8 lb of stayed. It worked for me, it mighnt work for you. I never ever get cramps, but i did feel some twitches spasms when i was on the stuff. If you do get cramps and take creatine you can expect a lot more intense a cramp. It helps recovery, may promote you to stop drinking, makes you want to train more. It indirectly helps everything relating to your training moreso than directly imo. However as with everything in life, good things arent supposed to come easy. I'd expect there will be serious reports out in the next few years relating to creatine causing illness, deformities of cells, inability to process creatine efficiently etc. you get my idea. I dont use it now but i always know i can turn to it again. I'm not pro or anti about drugs - supplements in sport, you will pay the price eventually.
The same way as you do on a drink/drugs binge, it may hit your head or your wallet or people.

Jak · 28-11-2002 7:11pm

There are plenty of people aged 60+ who have trained all their lives, used available supplementation, who have not "paid the price eventually". I train with one of them once a week.

Using training supplements is not a guaranteed trade off for future complications. Your comments are just scaremongering.

Again I would point out that supplementation is not a new phenomenon. Research does exist, and personally I don't require 100 years worth of literature to back up a decision.

JAK.

ps- Drowner if you took serious offense then I apologise. But loose comments which may be interpreted the wrong way by others was something I wanted to avoid - that is how half the myths start .. "I read somewhere it causes brain damage..." etc.

We have a general overview of what creatine is after that ... stick to personal experience and existing research.

Kegser · 29-11-2002 1:21am

There is no conclusive study or evidence to label Creatine as 100% safe in the long-term (that I have been able to find at any rate). However short-term it has been confirmed safe for healthy individuals at reasonable doses for reasonable lengths of time.

There are several cases of athletes with existing health problems which were exacerbated by the intake of additional Creatine, but the same can be expected from any number of supplements, drugs etc.

Nice post there Niall you hefty bald bastard by the way, ya left little to nothing for me to add on.

I used Creatine for approximately five weeks, I gained almost 5kg in the first two weeks but the increase in weight gain reached a plateau in or around week four as far as I could estimate. After I stopped ingesting the supplement I lost approximately 1kg in the first week and had problems gaining any additional weight or mass for approximately 4 weeks after that.

While on the Creatine, especially during the initial stages I did get a lot of cramping from my stomach area but that sibsided as I went onto the maintainance dosages. I drank an extra litre of water a day to counter any possible water-retention/dehydration issues and didn't feel the need to increase my water intake any more than that.

I found I did have more energy during sessions, and possibly did recover slightly faster from particularly exhaustive sessions while on the supplement.

I have suffered no ill effects so far, although I'm not entirely convinced of it's usefulness in my particular case. In total I gained approximately 4kg over a 9 week period... considering in the ten-week period prior to starting the Creatine I gained approximately 5kg, a large proportion of which was lean mass I was a bit disappointed.

However bear in mind if I had continued to use it I may have seen more benefits, and there are a lot of things you cannot predict or assure when it comes to gaining lean muscle mass. I may have hit a plateau as a result of my resistance choices or exercise choices, or it could have been down to work related stress.... God alone knows.

I'm not really convinced either way but I do know there are lots of people who swear by the stuff.... anyhow, that was my own personal experience... and especially with regard to weights training everyone is different.

Kegser · 29-11-2002 1:23am

Oh and I would just like to add it was fugging expensive too, and tasted like hedgehog piss.

xern · 29-11-2002 2:45am

It tastes rotten alright! strawberry flavor my hole!

Jak · 29-11-2002 9:58am

Creatine is generally tasteless.

I would recommend if buying it to look for pure unmixed creatine sources. Look for a perfect white fine powder ideally which mixes in liquid with light stirring. Mixed supplements can often screw you over on what you get.

I mix mine in a lil water and that is it. There is no taste. There is a train of thought that mixing it with certain drinks improves the uptake, but I wouldn't worry about that.

I tend to do cycles with breaks in it, but dosage is another matter which I think we should maybe avoid given my new realisation of how things may be taken the wrong way.

JAK

daveirl · 29-11-2002 7:24pm

This post has been deleted.

thedrowner · 30-11-2002 4:32pm

Originally posted by Jak
ps- Drowner if you took serious offense then I apologise. But loose comments which may be interpreted the wrong way by others was something I wanted to avoid - that is how half the myths start .. "I read somewhere it causes brain damage..." etc.

no, i completely understand, and i know that this is the kind of board where you cant misinform people because as u said, it could cause rumours, and you never know, could lead to people injuring themselves over bad advice. its just stuff that was fresh in my mind from college and i worded it pretty badly, and didnt have enough back up. i didnt take offense as such i just felt it was a bit condescending is all but its grand now that (i think) we both see where the other one is coming from, so im sorry for my loose comments

The'real'Guvnor · 15-12-2002 10:50pm

Creatine and Creatinine -
Creatinine is a byproduct of Creatine. If you mix creatine with any liquid then over time it will degrade into creatininine which is useless to the athlete but also harmless.

Upto 4grams of creatine exists in food sources. A lb of herring has about 4grams of creatine in it.

Does creatine cause cramping or strains? No. Muscle strains occured in top athletes due to the lack of a proper warm up. Cramping occured due to dehydration caused by an increased workload in a hot climate.

How much fluid do you need a day? 4-6 litres per day of a non-diuretic fluid. This holds true whether you use CM or not.

Is it safe? Yes. It's been around since 1836 in supplemental form. Longest study so far has been 5 years at over 20grams a day.

Does it aggravate the kidneys? No, BUT use of creatine can cause you to give a false positive on a medical exam. This is more common in the US and is down to machine used.

Is it a miracle powder? No. Creatine allows YOU to get more out of yourself. If you put the effort in you will see results, if you don't you will be dissappointed.

Does it make you hold water? No. Creatine is a cell volumiser.
What does this mean? For every creatine molecule that ends up in the muscle [not surrouding it] it brings in two water molecules. This is why you get a weight gain. The gain will make your muscles a little fuller and a small bit bigger.

Do you need dextrose for the spike? No harm but not necessary. You'll get a spike but then you are left confusing the sugar rush for what creatine feels like.

Must you load? No. Saturation will occur with a week if you load or in about 3 weeks if you just do maintenance.

How much per day? Anywhere from 2-20grams depending on where you look. Personally I would say between 5 and 12 dependant on gender and bodyweight.

Must it be cycled? No. Cycyling sounds scientific and just hints at things a bit more hardcore but no evidence supports cycling to be anymore effective than consistent, regular intake. However cycling involves more loading so the company can flog you more creatine as they will tell you to load at the start of every 'cycle'!

Is it worthwile? Yes.

Musashi · 12-01-2003 2:40pm

Logic,
Great post! Peer reviewed and double blinds are the only proof!! Good work in educating the masses, even if most don't appreciate it or even resent it!

photty · 15-01-2003 3:09pm

I've heard about creatine improving muscular endurance. This would come in very handy for cycling. However I'm a bit concerned about the extra weight gain. I mean is it real muscle you can train power and endurance into or is it just cosmetic bulk?? Are there any riders on the board who have used the stuff? Is it a worth while addition to regular training?

ecksor · 22-01-2003 3:01am

I use it while training to sprint, and it certainly hasn't slowed me down. It helps lactic tolerance and recovery.

I use maybe 5 grams a day (not the 20 that is often recommended) more because I'm not sure if I eat enough meat in the day than anything else and I do a lot of the sort of work that uses these energy sources.

As for cramps, I was a little more prone to them for a while after I first used it (over 5 years ago now), but not since. I think I just copped on and started taking on a decent amount of water. Any sort of cramping in runners has always been associated with dehydration in my experience.

tyler357 · 02-12-2011 4:14am

Kegser,
how many grams did you take per day?
are you noticing any further side effects to this date now that it is 2011?

I am looking to improve physical appearance, I am not necessarily concerned with strength, so how much of the appearance effects did you lose??

I would greatly appreciate the response! and apologize that I did not offer any valuable information.
-T